Building a CustoMac: Buyer's Guide October 2016

https://www.tonymacx86.com/buyersguide/october/2016

by rcarmo • 10 years ago

102 129 10 years ago

xaduha9• 10 years ago

Alternative route is to build a VFIO capable computer and run OS X or whatever your heart desires in a VM with real hardware (read GPU) passed through.

You can even run several VMs with several GPUs at the same time. Essentially you can have 2+ computers at the price of one.

CPLX4• 10 years ago

This sounds interesting. Know of any unusually good guides/resources for this?

xaduha9• 10 years ago

I can't judge from the beginners standpoint, here are few places to start looking

https://nixos.org/wiki/QEMU_guest_with_VGA_passthrough

https://www.reddit.com/r/VFIO

https://www.reddit.com/r/unRAID

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM...

I'd recommend going with NixOS and libvirt, but other communities such as around unRAID or Arch might be bigger.

jrcii2• 10 years ago

You can run OS X with qemu on Linux.

rcarmo6• 10 years ago

It crawls, even under KVM.

dperfect3• 10 years ago

I use a configuration like this (with Proxmox) to send content to the various TVs in my house (HDMI over Cat 5e). 4 cheap GPUs in the machine allow for up to 4 VMs running OS X (my preferred OS for media) to simultaneously play HD content, run classic emulated games, web browsing, etc. (haven't bothered with UHD yet, and probably won't for a while).

Of course, a lot of HD content can run with very modest specs (as long as the codecs are accelerated on the GPU), but for occasional content that requires CPU decoding or players/sites that aren't yet supported on standalone devices (Apple TV, Roku, etc), it's a really nice solution. Plus, it keeps each TV very clean in terms of cables and hardware.

I've done hackintosh on bare metal in the past, but even if I were setting up a single-headed hackintosh now, I'd still go the VFIO route - it makes updates much less stressful since you can quickly roll back to a snapshot if you break something.

weitzj• 10 years ago

Do you have this configuration by chance as a GIST on GitHub? There are KVM/Qemu configurations, but especially ProxMox would be nice

mountaineer228• 10 years ago

What is your hardware setup like? How much physical RAM and what mobo/GPUs?

toredash• 10 years ago

How do you do input to the different VMs/TVs?

rcarmo6• 10 years ago

That's nice, but further down the thread you say you haven't tried OSX at all. Anyone else have a useful data point for this scenario?

xaduha9• 10 years ago

You misread, I said I haven't tried it recently, as in I haven't tried it with macOS Sierra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qadiAp1aiJM

https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM

orf• 10 years ago

Has anyone here actually made a custom mac? I thought Apple tried to stop this by preventing the OS from installing and you had to do some hacky stuff to get it to work?

drinchev5• 10 years ago

I did in the past (2011). Had an i7 with 16GB of RAM. It was pretty stable. Though I had problems with iMessage & OS X upgrades. Nevertheless I think it's fairly easy to build one and there is big benefit, since Apple's iMac is now the only 32GB capable machine that they sell.

stephenr4• 10 years ago

iMac is now the only 32GB capable machine that they sell.

The Mac Pro supports up to 64GB of RAM.

mountaineer228• 10 years ago

Last year i7, 32gb ram.

You install via USB.

I seem to have to update my video card driver after an OS X update, but it takes less than 3 minutes.

I built it figuring worse-case scenario, I can slap Linux or Windows on it, and it will still be good hardware.

I spent more on the monitor than the system build.

If you do, I recommend purchasing the PCI-E adapter for the Apple Broadcom BCM94360CD card to have native wifi+bluetooth.

Very stable.

pritambaral• 10 years ago

Any indication anywhere of the software noticing it's not running on official Apple hardware?

627467• 10 years ago

I7 (2014) with GTX780 on 16GB. Got 2x256GB SSD for each system, and works very well. Haven't got around to upgrade to Sierra as I suspect something may break.

erikbye6• 10 years ago

Yes. I have two running systems.

https://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/7319000

https://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/7246385

They are both equipped with GTX 970.

kitsunesoba• 10 years ago

Built one less than a month ago. i7 6700K, 16GB RAM, Samsung 840 EVO pilfered from an old laptop, 1TB HD pulled from a Dell Poweredge T20 before filling it with NAS drives, and a GTX 950 that will be upgraded as soon as OS X drivers for the latest gen AMD or Nvidia cards are available. The motherboard I selected has tons of ports available, including USB 3.1/TB 3, and I bought an exceptionally nice case, PSU, and CPU cooler for it. It's blazing fast for everything — my top of the line 2015 15" rMBP is nearly 2x slower at tasks like compiling large projects with Xcode. The whole build costed me less than $1k.

The prevalence of hackintoshes is a direct result of a gaping hole existing in Apple's product line. Mac Pros are badly priced given their age and not everyone needs dual GPUs, but you don't have the option to reduce costs by dropping the second GPU if it's not needed. You can't opt for a more CPU/less GPU config either. The iMac is nice, but it has the reverse problem: its graphics are terribly weak for the display it drives and can never be upgraded. And of course there's the Mac Mini, which is little more than a low end headless 13" MacBook Pro, complete with the limitations of that model. There is no midrange Mac desktop that can be tailored to an individual's needs at a reasonable cost, and that's where hackintoshes come into the picture.

If Apple wants to slow down hackintoshing dramatically all they have to do is release a tower akin to the old aluminum Mac Pros and start its pricing at $1500 - $2000. People will gladly pay the price for a real Mac as long as they feel like they're getting a machine that caters to their needs. It's mostly alienated Mac fans who hackintosh, not cheapskates.

erlehmann_4• 10 years ago

Why do people do this? Is it only for fun? I would think that any GNU/Linux system could provide similar or better tooling and most likely results in a less painful upgrade process.

drinchev5• 10 years ago

I doubt that. Sketch / Photoshop does not run on GNU / Linux as well as Safari.

These are a must for any front-end developer these days and personally although I like some window managers for X11, I can't afford to go that way, because they don't feel mature enough.

Not to mention iTunes, Photos and all the nice software that comes with OS X.

X86BSD• 10 years ago

Also there is no dtrace on Linux.

jrcii2• 10 years ago

Gnome and KDE are painful to use when you're used to Aqua, not to mention all the great Mac-only apps.

morganvachon• 10 years ago

Openbox + compton gets me the same smoothness as Aqua, and is much more configurable. You can make it look and feel 99% like Aqua, or you can go another direction and make it exactly what works for you instead of cloning another interface.

toyg3• 10 years ago

I've tried a few Linux distributions in the last few days, I suggest you try LinuxMint - it seems to be the less painful option. I'm not sure what desktop manager they use, but it's definitely better than stock KDE or stock GNOME.

For KDE, the best experience at the moment seems to be Neon, although I've not tried OpenSUSE.

xufi• 10 years ago

Can't disagree with that. The way it functions and the plethora of apps you get with it are good enough for me

mountaineer228• 10 years ago

You can have a 32GB i7 running OS X for iOS or native app development for less than $1000.

UPDATE:

Oh yeah, you can upgrade the various components too.

op00to8• 10 years ago

How much do you need to put towards an attorney retainer for fighting the copyright infringement lawsuit Apple can bring against you? Does that count toward the less than $1000 price tag?

mrtksn2• 10 years ago

In some countries macs are ridiculously expensive for students and even for professionals and people just install MacOs on their already available PCs so that they can mess around with XCode or the tooling for web development. Sure you can have most of the tooling on Linux for example but the MacOs UI is much better than anything available for Linux distros.

Also, curiosity.

erlehmann_4• 10 years ago

Could you quantify how you judge UI? I actually found that the OS X UI to be consistently less featureful and more cumbersome to use than most GNU/Linux stuff. Maybe I have different expectations regarding operating system features?

Take window management, for example: If I want my windows to fill exactly half the screen, have one window on top of all others or move them from anywhere (just not the title bar), last time I checked it was just impossible out of the box.

Package management is another thing where GNU/Linux excels. On Debian, I am usually just a single “apt-get” away from having exactly what I need. The UI for such tasks does not seem to exist at all on OS X without third party tools.

In practical terms, Apple delivering outdated GNU utilities that are by now nine years old is something that should not happen with a modern operating system. I have encountered a lot of (non-developer) Apple users who do not know this and then wonder why something does not work.

If you would explain what makes the “UI being much better” in your eyes, it might help us to understand why exactly we think differently (heh) here.

e403• 10 years ago

Because of the software we use. Lightroom and MS Office (please don't suggest Libre Office is good enough, it's not for legal and accounting documented exchange, as I had many spreadsheets that were broken on LO).

scholia2• 10 years ago

Of course, Lightroom and MS Office are available on Windows, and may include more programs ;-)

erlehmann_4• 10 years ago

As a Lightroom user, how do you think Darktable compares to it for amateur and semi-professional use cases? http://www.darktable.org/

marmaduke2• 10 years ago

MS Office 2013 runs fine on Wine! At least, I can confirm that the equation editing and change tracking stuff was worth the effort to set up Wine. If you have custom plugins 'n stuff, maybe it won't work well.

adamors4• 10 years ago

I actually switched to Hackintoshes from Linux PCs because the upgrade/install process is less painful. Used Ubuntu and Arch in the past, tinkering with the system was almost a daily thing.

Also, the UX/UI of OS X is just miles ahead of anything on Linux. Same for 3rd party software.

erlehmann_4• 10 years ago

Referring to my other comment, could you quantify your UX/UX assessment? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12829832

toyg3• 10 years ago

the UX/UI of OS X is just miles ahead of anything on Linux.

I thought the same, but I spent the last few days surveying the field and it's not actually the case anymore. ElementaryOS and LinuxMint have top-notch desktop managers (Pantheon and Cinnamon respectively) and provide a really polished experience. After a few hours on Elementary in a VM, I am really tempted to format my rMBP and see if it can be my main OS going forward.

yardie• 10 years ago

I've been a Mac user since the late 90s. Believe it or not you used to be able to get a Mac for under $1k. Usually, through student discounts and back to school sales. My last desktop Mac was a Powermac G4 tower. The next gen was the Powermac G5 with double the price! There was no upgrade plan going forward. $2500 was wildly out of my budget.

A few years later, after Apple released the first intel macs, I discovered the osx86 wiki, gave it a shot and it worked! I built a Hackintosh that was almost as powerful as a full MacPro, Intel Q6600, 16GB RAM, RAID10 HDD, for 1/3 of the price.

I've always enjoyed using a Mac since the System 7 days. But in this day and age paying >$1500 for a laptop just seems ludicrous. I'm typing this from a 2011 MBP. I anticipated purchasing a newer 2016 MBP. After this announcement I'll probably look into a refurbished rMBP.

Sadly, I believe the entry level xMac is never going to happen. the Mac mini gets no love, the MacPro gets no attention, the iMac gets and it appears the focus is mobile and laptops. So I'll be back on the OSX86 wiki making my shopping list and doing my research once again.

rcarmo6• 10 years ago

The user experience completely blows Linux out of the water, and the tooling is superior because you can use ports from Linux/BSD _and_ native tools.

erikbye6• 10 years ago

You do realize a lot of people work with software like Adobe’s Photoshop, Premiere, Illustrator, After Effects, Ableton Live, Pro Tools, Cubase, Sonar, Final Cut, Avid tools++?

Do not even bother to mention Wine, or Linux native alternatives, because there are non that are good enough for most professional users.

Also, less painful? I spend less time installing and configuring a hackintosh system and upgrades than I do configuring and maintaining most Linux distros.

Making a stable hackintosh system these days is as easy as picking parts from something like OP’s post and following install and configure guides on the same site. Very little pain involved actually.

My preferred work environment is OS X/macOS as host and a Linux distro as guest.

I also prefer a hackintosh system to a Mac Pro for price/performance ratio, and the flexibility of selecting my own hardware and upgrading whenever I feel like it.

op00to8• 10 years ago

I experimented with Hackkntoshes years ago. It was a fun toy, but overall not the best use of my time. Upgrades required effort even if they didn't outright break my system.

More importantly, Hackintosh requires custom kexts, at a minimum FakeSMC.kext. That kext is used to bypass Apple's hardware locks. Has it been audited? If so, can you trust that the installer you use to wedge the kext in actually uses the clean kext and not a rooted version that puts you at risk? What happens when you load that kext? Even if it isn't overtly trying to compromise your system, does it open security holes? Does it silently corrupt your disk due to a bug somewhere?

Let's say you're ok with all that. What happens when you make it big, and Apple decides to sue you for breaking the EULA of MacOS? I wouldn't base my business on it.

e403• 10 years ago

I did the Hackintosh thing for a couple of years. It was painful, but even more so since I wanted a RAID 1 on my main boot disk. That, it turns out, is not supported that well. If someone claims it is, then I'd say it definitely adds extra steps, and it can sometimes be tricky and tense.

I never dual booted Windows, but I read about lots of problems people had in the forums.

It was like removing a large pebble from my shoe when I got my Mac Pro.

op00to8• 10 years ago

Did you run your business on the Hackintosh? I'm curious of people who do this - what's the calculus that makes this decision (time, security risk, etc) a viable choice?

xaduha9• 10 years ago

I wouldn't base my business on it.

Who even said anything about business?

But if you're worried about security you can run OS X well enough in a VM (optionally with real hardware) doesn't need any 3rd party kexts AFAIK.

marmaduke2• 10 years ago

OS X well enough in a VM

At least in VirtualBox, OS X dev tools short circuit on illegal instructions pretty quickly

adamors4• 10 years ago

I've been using my Hackintosh PC for 5 years now and every update/new OS upgrade was hassle free. With custom builds that is the norm.

As long as EULAs are concerned, in the EU they are unenforceable.

gruez• 10 years ago

As long as EULAs are concerned, in the EU they are unenforceable.

No, that's a myth. It's only that certain clauses in RULAs are unenforceable

riprowan3• 10 years ago

Base your business on it? No.

However I did put a Hackintosh into mission critical use for a bit. The machine was a ~$300 Dell Mini 9 which remains one of the all time easiest and most stable Hackintosh builds. To be fair it was a puny computer, but I upgraded mine with a larger SSD which made it pretty quick, and it was rock-solid stable. TBH I don't think it ever crashed or hang. And it was tiny.

I used this as my onstage computer for about a year running Reaktor and Sampletank. It took many falls. I never once had a problem with it. Its teensy size meant it could perch in a blank area on top of my keyboard.

However you're right about updates. They could be fatal and had to be well-researched and planned.

applecore• 10 years ago

Why not get a refurbished MacBook Air 11"[1] which is guaranteed to work?

[1] http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/macbo...

rcarmo6• 10 years ago

I ran a Dell Mini 9 too. An excellent little machine with OSX, wish mine still worked.

dylan6042• 10 years ago

The non-audited code is a concern for people I speak with about building a custoMac. I have built a Hackintosh using the forum on tonymacx86 that I only use as video workstation. I do not use it for personal computing. I use my MacBook Pro for that. I also keep it air gapped, and I use sneakernet USB sticks for any updates that were downloaded from my laptop. Adobe Creative Cloud doesn't like this, and does require extra steps to keep it working.

The only reason I chose Hackintosh over actual hardware is that Apple seems to have given up on the desktop market. When their current top of the line machine costs $9400 for 3+ year old tech, of course people are going to look for alternatives. In the life of GPU tech, the Dual D700s are as useful and relevant as T-Rex arms. CPU tech hasn't changed, but preventing me from keeping up to date with GPUS is unforgivable in a desktop.

keeran• 10 years ago

Last time I tried this is it was a complete ballache to get iMessage working - I expect other services are similarly problematic. Is this still a problem?

cordite• 10 years ago

I never use it, though guides constantly mention you gotta have the right system profile and some other low level settings for it to work.

Retr0spectrum2• 10 years ago

I installed Sierra just a few days ago on an Intel server board (S5000XALR). I had to change a single setting in my bootloader (clover) to make all the services work (Admittedly, it did take a bit of googling to find that setting).

I think Intel boards are ideal because they are presumably quite similar in hardware to the Mac Pro motherboards. All my hardware (including GTX480) worked without any additional configuration.

erikbye6• 10 years ago

iMessage working on both my systems, it was not a pain in the ass at all. The only thing I did was make sure my two boxes had unique serial numbers.

riprowan3• 10 years ago

I think this trend becomes popular every time Apple's product line becomes stale.

chrisabrams• 10 years ago

Yeah, it's kind of a catch 22 as the product line has to stop innovating for these guides to stay relevant.

protomyth3• 10 years ago

I dearly wish that Apple would just go back to licensing their OS. I get the feeling, other than portables, they really don't want to make Macintoshes. Heck, even a $500[1] package would be fine. Put out a list of acceptable hardware like the old NeXT list[2].

I know they won't, but I still have dreams. I do wonder what was the real story when Steve Jobs made his public comments on clones[3] and what the price was they refused[4].

1) Lord knows I paid more for NeXTSTEP back in the day.

2) It was kinda fun to call a number and get a fax back with the list of hardware you could buy.

3) https://youtu.be/a3MrpLyUOo8?t=34m41s

4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYLuoahTP_s

threeseed• 10 years ago

No Apple will never go back to licensing their OS. It nearly killed them after Power Computing went straight for Apple's profit margins instead of trying to entice new customers to the ecosystem.

The fact is that many of the innovations we come to appreciate Apple for come from their ownership of both the hardware and the software.

protomyth3• 10 years ago

The fact is that many of the innovations we come to appreciate Apple for come from their ownership of both the hardware and the software.

Since they switched to Intel, what are these innovations that I cannot just buy? I see the new Touch Bar, but even that I can skip[1]. I really wonder what would be different?

I doubt they will ever go back, but Apple sure isn't doing a whole lot to satisfy my desktop love. What exactly on the Mac mini and Mac Pro cannot be bought by a third party?

1) The whole idea of something that make me move my eyes to the keyboard is unwelcome.

yuhong• 10 years ago

I was for a while thinking of the case where Apple bought NeXT but Gil Amelio and later Ellen Hancock stayed as CEO, and CHRP actually happened. While PC margins was declining, I was thinking that Apple could mostly focus on the higher-end PC and workstation markets. I wonder how this would have compared to Tim Cook today.

pjmlp• 10 years ago

I understand not wanting to pay the Apple tax, but I think what makes a desktop experience great is the whole package.

How hardware and software come together in an unified user experience.

This is why people talk about Spectrums, Commodores, Ataris, Amigas, Macs, and game consoles.

This is why hardly anyone talks about nice memorable experiences with PC clones.

FullyFunctional• 10 years ago

Based on the comments of people doing this, the vast majority are far less motivated by saving money than by getting macOS on great hardware. It's a frustrating fact for those willing to pay that the Mac "Pro" is very far behind the bleeding edge.

ScarZy• 10 years ago

I was lucky to infact have the components that I built for my gaming computer also tick the boxes for a hackintosh build. I had a spare SSD that I was running arch on, so thought I'd give it a whirl. I use a MBP for work, and having a similar system to work on is quite nice (especially since it's great for labwork with 32GB of RAM).

It's been rock solid, and I want to write my own boxen so that I can mimic my MBP build

mmastrac• 10 years ago

Has anyone built a Hackintosh laptop that works? Even one that booted into Linux (with proper sleep/hibernation support) to run an OSX VM using PCI passthru would be useful.

dylan6042• 10 years ago

When I built my current CustoMac, I selected an Gigabyte X99 chipset motherboard that supported an optional Thunderbolt2 expansion card. This was an important part in my decision making as I have a lot of peripheral video equipment that I need in day to day work. It worked, with the caveat that it was not plug-n-play. Devices were only detected at boot. Cool, I can handle that.

However, when I upgraded the OS to El Capitan, I needed to update the firwmare of the mobo. After upgrading the firmware, Gigabyte removed support for the Thunderbolt expansion card. Suddenly, I can no longer use any of those devices. I searched, but there was no mention of the loss of thunderbolt with the use of that firmware. I have seen online where others are also in the same Thunderboltless boat, even if they are running Windows.

Just and FYI to consider if anyone reading this thread is thinking of the CustoMac route. This isn't the Hackintosh community's issue for something they changed. It's the hardware vendor's decision.

Building a CustoMac: Buyer's Guide October 2016

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