Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

http://computinged.wordpress.com/2010/04/15/apple-removes-scratch-from-ipadiphoneitouch/

by barrkel • 16 years ago

158 66 16 years ago

computinged.wordpress.com

cesare2• 16 years ago

IMHO, this should cause more outrage than all the developer related policies.

Apple has always been a world apart, with a strong philosophy and its own priorities. But the culture around its products was all about fostering creativity.

I used to say to friends: get a Mac if you want an hassle-free computer to make things (music, graphics design and even programming. Does anyone remember HyperCard, which at one point was bundled with every mac?).

The argument that the iPad/iPhone/iPodTouch is not a computer is really myopic. It's the culture that has changed.

lallysingh• 16 years ago

Yeah, that's linux now, and only for software dev creativity.

api• 16 years ago

Unfortunately, it is only for software dev creativity. Nobody else can really use Linux.

(I say that as a long time Linux user... I would never give Linux to a non-techie.)

aristoxenus3• 16 years ago

I agree that it should cause more concern -- but how about more "reflection and rethinking" than "outrage". The kids with the most to gain from an encouraging tool like Scratch can't afford iPods anyway.

bad_user2• 16 years ago

> The kids with the most to gain from an encouraging tool like Scratch can't afford iPods anyway.

That's why they have parents.

raganwald3• 16 years ago

Build for free software platforms like Linux or the Web and these issues go away. Being outraged at Apple policies when the web is free is like being outraged at your employer when you are free to start your own business.

angumagu2• 16 years ago

"Free" is a term that always benefits from definition. How free am I to start my own business? Well, that depends on relative power, and how precarious my financial situation is, my debt load, my family responsibilities, and other things. It's not just a simple question of "is it physically possible?"

I'm not sure how directly applicable that critique is to the analogy, except to say that I am well within my rights to be outraged at my own employer for many reasons, whether or not I have the opportunity to start my own business. "Love it or leave it" is generally a cheap argument for dismissing folks who are pushing for progressive change in a system.

joe_the_user• 16 years ago

I certainly hope that this will cause more outrage than there's been so far but this action is a completely consistent application of Apple's draconian tools policy and that is a natural result of the walled-garden model.

see: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

Sorry if it's been seen before...

aphistic• 16 years ago

From the article: "Why? Discussion on the Scratch forums suggests that it’s because Apple wants to focus on consuming media using these devices, not producing media. Want to be truly computing literate, where you write as well as read? There’s no app for that."

No, it's because (as far as I can tell) the Scratch iPhone app was acting as a Scratch interpreter which is explicitly not allowed on the App Store to begin with.

The authors of the iPhone app (http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Scratch.html) made a nice post in the developer forums (https://devforums.apple.com/thread/46425) pleading their case for any you with access to the forum and an interest in digging deeper.

aristoxenus3• 16 years ago

That post really puts the "C/C++/Obj-C" thing into much starker relief than the "wish I could use lisp" discussion. Geeks can get around 3.3.1 if they're clever enough; replacing a democratizing technology like Scratch, on the other hand, may be impossible.

That said, if their app really was an interpreter, I'm surprised it made it into the store in the first place. And if anything, the typical Scratch output of a crayon-drawn animation designed by a 13-year-old only bolsters Jobs' point about cross-compilers bringing down the average app quality. But I'm very impressed that they had Scratch working on the platform and I hope Apple can find a way to incorporate that educational mission into their world-domination strategy...

stcredzero2• 16 years ago

They built it on top of Squeak. That thing is one of the most straightforward VMs to port. The runtimes execute bit-identical. Years ago they were on 40 different platforms, and I've lost track. It's an incredibly elegant architecture.

cesare2• 16 years ago

"No, it's because (as far as I can tell) the Scratch iPhone app was acting as a Scratch interpreter which is explicitly not allowed on the App Store to begin with."

Which goes to show, once again, that this policy is really stupid and that it doesn't affect exclusively developers, but also the educational potential so vehemently touted by all the iPad/iPhone/iTouch fans.

ajg1977• 16 years ago

So I imagine Apple will soon be taking down the Secret of Money Island and the Sim games, since I know for a fact both of these use interpreters.

No, of course they won't. Because those titles bring in big bucks and are from the types of developer Apple wants to develop for their device.

It the capricious and selective enforcement of the SDKs T&Cs that is the biggest problem for developers. It's not that Apple are against interpreters, they are just against interpreters when it is not financially beneficial to them.

wvenable• 16 years ago

Actually they fully allow interpreters as long as it doesn't allow users to run arbitrary code. They allowed the Commodore 64 emulator once direct access to the BASIC interpreter was removed: http://www.joystiq.com/2009/11/10/iphone-commodore-64-emulat...

Of course, all these products were put into the app store before rule 3.3.1.

stcredzero2• 16 years ago

It should be possible to create a Scratch execution environment on top of Javascript/Safari. A cross compiler done correctly might run faster than the "native" Squeak VM.

icey• 16 years ago

Do you know if anyone has built anything non-trivial with Clamato?

(http://clamato.net/)

rubinelli• 16 years ago

But then the program is still not originally written in JavaScript, so no dice. I think a subset of JavaScript plus a nice library would be ok, though.

jstevens852• 16 years ago

It would be great if someone could copy the text of their post. My developer account recently expired and I don't really want to pay $99 just to view one forum post.

malkia3• 16 years ago

It's out only from the store. There are other ways to install it! Legal ways.

malkia3• 16 years ago

Why am I getting downvoted?

If you want Scratch for your students, you can use ad-hoc install for them? Buy a $99 dollar account, sponsored by the school, and install it for them? What is the problem?

I understand, and I wish Apple did not put such restrictions, but they've put them. Yet, still there is a way.

It's not like with Sony and the latest Ps3 firmware, where even if you want to pay (And I've already paid $69 for YellowDog support) I can no longer get it, or I can't use the Sony Service...

cschep2• 16 years ago

Is the code freely available to use to install it? If it's not, then this won't work.

jonknee• 16 years ago

Unless you have more than 100 students. Or don't have a Mac. Or think it's ridiculous to have to pay $99 every year to run your own app.

fierarul2• 16 years ago

Next up "Etch A Sketch"-like iApps will be banned since the viewers will interpret de data from the server and display other users' sketches.

God forbid you use JSON to communicate with the server in your app and parse it yourself, that's too close to Javascript-parsing and you can only use the approved Javascript interpreter for that.

It's starting to look a bit like a joke.

Yeah, of course, typing this on my MacBook Pro... It's a weird love-hate thing with Apple these days.

abstractbill2• 16 years ago

It just occurred to me you officially cannot make an iPhone app that displays PDF documents - because rendering a PDF involves interpreting a program written in the PostScript programming language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostScript#The_language).

acon• 16 years ago

No. PDFs only uses the PostScript imaging model, not the PostScript programming language.

bad_user2• 16 years ago

PDFs generated by Adobe Acrobat have Javascript in them (for forms mostly). You are free to not interpret it though.

naz• 16 years ago

You can render PDFs in a Webkit view.

cpr• 16 years ago

Now THIS really got my attention. I was holding my nose lightly through all the flap so far, and I'm quite sympathetic to Apple's desire to keep Flash off the platform, but disallowing educational software just because it's running a Smalltalk interpreter?

A polite but forceful email to Jobs is on the way...

nearestneighbor• 16 years ago

I'd hate Apple more if they published a policy, and then cherry-picked when to enforce it for their best PR benefit.

jamesbritt2• 16 years ago

Didn't they do essentially that by allowing apps for magazines from larger publishers (Sports Illustrated, Playboy, for example) that contained certain content while nixing other apps on the grounds they had exactly that sort of content?

http://www.cooltechzone.com/2010/02/23/apple-loves-playboy-s...

jamesbritt2• 16 years ago

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2010/04/16/cartoonist-apple-back...

Don't be playa hater.

dejb2• 16 years ago

Why does it have to take a specific concrete example like this to make you sit up and take notice? This is the sort of slow and lazy thinking allows despots of all kinds to take control. I can imagine in nazi Germany 'holding your nose lightly through all the flap about persecution of jews' and then being surprised when they take your neighbor away.

ANH• 16 years ago

I'm guessing you're doing self-parody. If not, see Godwin's Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

endergen5• 16 years ago

This is not exactly what Alan Kay hoped for when he talked about the iPhone foreshadowing the iPad:

"When the Mac first came out, Newsweek asked me what I [thought] of it. I said: Well, it’s the first personal computer worth criticizing. So at the end of the presentation, Steve came up to me and said: Is the iPhone worth criticizing? And I said: Make the screen five inches by eight inches, and you’ll rule the world."

Source: http://gigaom.com/2010/01/26/alan-kay-with-the-tablet-apple-...

The iPad is no Dynabook: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynabook.

Perhaps a better name would have been:

-UndynamicBook

-iStade (See: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stade )

vtail• 16 years ago

Could you please elaborate on what is exactly 'disrespectful to history'? Dynabook concept was out there since 1968, not patented as far as I know - anyone could have 'borrowed' it and reaped the benefits.

The fact that Apple has provided a particular implementation of the concept, even with all the software restrictions etc., is a step in right direction. Competition will certainly follow.

endergen5• 16 years ago

The last paragraph came across much stronger than I intended. I've removed it for now until I articulate what I intended better(or never).

javanix• 16 years ago

Want to be truly computing literate, where you write as well as read? There’s no app for that.

On some level, the iPad isn't really a Turing Machine.

locopati• 16 years ago

So again the question arises - why would you develop for a platform where the rules can change arbitrarily in a way that invalidates your work and possibly cuts into your income stream?

viraptor• 16 years ago

Because you get money while it lasts. If you're fully aware of problem and its consequences - why not just stop worrying and love the bo^W appstore. I'm not sure why would any hobby developer do that though...

adamc• 16 years ago

Kept waiting to hear this was a joke, but apparently not. Depressing.

shaunxcode• 16 years ago

My first problem with scratch was that it was client based and the "player" is java based. It absolutely needs to be web (not flash or java) based. I actually had a good portion of a jquery/drag and drop code editor written a few years ago when I was stuck at a 9-5 programming gig. I am going to dig it back up as the time seems right to move forward with it.

misuba• 16 years ago

Please do!

binspace• 16 years ago

> Of course, they can take all the hate from developers because the mindless Apple legions will still love them.

So true.

Apple removes Scratch from iPad/iPhone/iTouch

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