Turkey Extends Purge to Universities, Asking All Deans to Go

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-19/turkey-extends-purge-to-universities-asking-all-deans-to-go

by sethbannon • 10 years ago

126 188 10 years ago

vegabook3• 10 years ago

"Democracy is like a tram. You use it to get to you destination, and then you get off" - Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

The West was seriously duped by this guy. I remember The Economist's self-deluded/deceitful decade-long, apologetic editorial line, never letting a mention of the islamist AKP go unqualified with the adjective "mildly" (read: "market friendly"), and it is ironic that one of the most effective Brexit camp scare tactics was Turkish EU accession, when it was Britain under Blair and Cameron who were the most vociferous advocates of the policy in the first place.

The fix is in. This "coup" is a transparent manipulation by Erdogan so that he might grab absolute power. Who knows what havoc he will now wreak in the region, and in Europe, with it.

Aelinsaar5• 10 years ago

Oh, thank goodness that he doesn't fundamentally misunderstand the concept or anything! moans

vegabook3• 10 years ago

Reminds me of the bitter colonialists' quip during the period of African independence: "one man one vote. Once"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_man,_one_vote#One_man.2C_o...

FreedomToCreate4• 10 years ago

Is there a link to this quote?

stdgy• 10 years ago

Earliest I can find is a NYTimes reference: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/25/magazine/the-east-in-the-w...

Search for streetcar.

api4• 10 years ago

He made GDP go up.

The West has also spent the past decade and a half fawning over the genius of the Chinese Communist Party and the PLA for the same reason. Look into their glorious human rights record, or the level of inequality there for that matter. Makes the USA look like an egalitarian utopia.

Dubai is another one. Look at those skyscrapers! What a dynamic economy! Never mind the slave labor and the caste system.

I'd throw Singapore in too. They're nowhere near as bad as the PLA or Dubai in practice but they are essentially totalitarian at heart. But the numbers look good and the streets are clean so it's okay.

Side note:

One thing that's disillusioned me about libertarianism is that the past 30-ish years of history seem to have proven that capitalism and economic health are absolutely compatible with totalitarianism. IMHO the Randian notion that the two are at odds and that a dynamic economy requires freedom and justice has been empirically proven wrong. Slave states work. GDP goes up. What's not to like?

iwwr• 10 years ago

Slave states work. GDP goes up. What's not to like?

They work when they're sitting on a mountain of oil, or Singapore's equivalent: a shipping bottleneck. Sort-of, at some point corruption becomes intolerable, or the oil runs out (or becomes too cheap to pay for the oppression).

That said, the Singapore comparison may be a little far-fetched, they resemble the West far more than the totalitarian Middle East states.

DominikR4• 10 years ago

The more your economy relies on creativity and education of the workforce the less productive a slave will become compared to a free man.

So yes, economies relying on slave labor can outcompete our economies in sectors where masses of low skilled labor are required (because of the lower price), but once these economies move up and require highly skilled labor they'll usually get into trouble.

methodover• 10 years ago

Libertarianism is first about freedom. It's in the fucking name. It's not about "economic growth."

Obviously caste systems and totalitarianism are at ideological odds with libertarianism.

simonh3• 10 years ago

I agree Erdogan is using this as an excuse to seize complete control, but I don't buy the fake coup conspiracy theory. The military had no reason to agree to help Erdongan do something like that, and who would volunteer to get tried for Treason?

The military never liked Erdogan and he's been locking up military leaders for 'plotting' against him for years. Some of them finally got fed up with him, but made a mess of it.

vegabook3• 10 years ago

the theorists are saying something more subtle happened. Either of:

a) A coup-credible general or two or three, would have been bribed to trigger it, so that Erdogan could identify his enemies red-handed. The rest of the plotters in the army would have been under the impression a real coup was happening. This would explain the quick surrender of the bridge soldiers without a fight, because the horrible reality that they had been duped would have dawned upon them.

Or possibly more likely:

b) Noises and rumours were discretely circulated by his agents that Erdogan was preparing a large purge. This is credible because it is reported the list of all the 3000 judge firings, for example, was pre-prepared (as you would expect with such a large number). Tactical leaks to the right people of would have forced an immature half-baked coup plan hastily and prematurely to be executed, in panic and to protect themselves pre-emptively from said purge. This is the scenario where Erdogan basically raised the stakes in order to call their bluff, and thus flushed his enemies out into the open.

Personally I find the consequences of this "coup" to be much too neatly convenient for Erdogan, the purge too pre-meditated in appearance and logistically well organised, for the finger of prime suspicion not to point directly at him.

Aelinsaar5• 10 years ago

This is a particularly bad sign, and one that seems to support the worst fears about the future of Turkey. Ousting judges and other powerful figures in the government and military makes a certain ruthless sense, but intellectual purges seem to always be the ultimate canary in the social coalmine.

Freak_NL• 10 years ago

Working on reintroducing the death penalty is another.

Its saddening to see how the large secular part of the population that has no desire to live in an Islamic state has little recourse but to keep quiet and hope nobody points a finger in their direction.

api4• 10 years ago

... or leave.

The USA and Europe should welcome them. The American Century was in many ways built on brain drain from totalitarian regimes. When Germany went insane we got quite a bit of the cream of the crop of German intellectuals including many of history's greatest physicists, the Bauhaus School of design, etc.

jerf• 10 years ago

It's not the canary, it's the death-by-poison. By the time this happens, it's too late. The idea of the canary is that when it dies, you still have a bit of time to leave.

Aelinsaar5• 10 years ago

Good point, I did butcher that metaphor.

knowaveragejoe5• 10 years ago

Asking?

Also, I didn't know about this, but I guess I should be prepared for even more of it:

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan clashed with academics earlier this year, when more than 1,000 of them signed a petition calling for peace in the southeast and criticizing the government’s handling of the state’s long-running battle with its Kurdish population centered there. Many ended up on trial, while others lost their jobs.

Aelinsaar5• 10 years ago

"Plomo o plata" is still technically a choice you're "asking" someone to make, and I don't get the sense that protection against coercion is a big thing right now for old Recep.

FreedomToCreate4• 10 years ago

Punish the smartest of your population and good luck creating an economy that is built on any form of scientific progress. Utter sadness to watch a man destroy a country so he can consolidate power while destroying that which he wants power over.

Animats2• 10 years ago

Erdoğan has been pushing primary education in Turkey to become more Islamic. Is this part of that?

Turkey may be headed down the Islamic rathole. No country with an Islamic education system is very successful, because Islamic education doesn't teach useful skills. Some of the oil states survive by bringing in outsiders to do the work, but that only lasts until the oil runs out. Then they become failed states like Egypt and Syria.

api4• 10 years ago

You are assuming that human welfare is the goal.

Jtsummers2• 10 years ago

Islamic education doesn't teach useful skills.

I can't speak to the quality (or lack thereof) of Islamic education. But I feel this generally holds true for any fundamentalist religion-based education.

newacct235• 10 years ago

Jesuit education manages to be good.

giancarlostoro• 10 years ago

Catholic schools tend to be decent. In Puerto Rico for example, the best schools I could ever go to were Catholic. When I moved from PR to Florida I was being taught material I had already learned in Puerto Rico. Edit: That is, in Public Schools I was being taught things I already learned in Spanish.

Animats2• 10 years ago

It's more of a time management problem than a theology problem. There are schools that teach All Religion All the Time. Islamic madrassas and Jewish yeshivas do that. People come out of them without the skills to do anything useful.

DominikR4• 10 years ago

The problem for him is that Turkish nationalism is a good tool for internal control, but it doesn't help at all if the goal is to gain influence in the Middle East.

Turks are not Arabs after all. Islam on the other hand is quite influential und universal in the Middle East.

I guess he wants more influence in the Middle East instead of trying to influence some Turkish minorities in China and a few minor Central Asian nations. (good luck trying that against China)

jsprogrammer3• 10 years ago

No country with an Islamic education system is very successful, because Islamic education doesn't teach useful skills.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Islamic education system", but many important contributions [0] have been made by individuals from what would appear to be such a system.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

knowaveragejoe5• 10 years ago

I'm not sure if they're the same thing. I would venture they are not.

kra34• 10 years ago

In the name of the general welfare, to protect the people's security, to achieve full equality and total stability, it is decreed for the duration of the national emergency that:

Point One. All workers, wage earners and employees of any kind whatsoever shall henceforth be attached to their jobs and shall not leave nor be dismissed nor change employment, under penalty of a term in jail. The penalty shall be determined by the Unification Board, such Board to be appointed by the Bureau of Economic Planning and National Resources. All persons reaching the age of twenty-one shall report to the Unification Board, which shall assign them to where, in its opinion, their services will best serve the interests of the nation.

Point Two. All industrial, commercial, manufacturing and business establishments of any nature whatsoever shall henceforth remain in operation, and the owners of such establishments shall not quit nor leave nor retire, nor close, sell or transfer their business, under penalty of the nationalization of their establishment and of any and all of their property.

Point Three. All patents and copyrights, pertaining to any devices, inventions, formulas, processes and works of any nature whatsoever, shall be turned over to the nation as a patriotic emergency gift by means of Gift Certificates to be signed voluntarily by the owners of all such patents and copyrights. The Unification Board shall then license the use of such patents and copyrights to all applicants, equally and without discrimination, for the purpose of eliminating monopolistic practices, discarding obsolete products and making the best available to the whole nation. No trademarks, brand names or copyrighted titles shall be used. Every formerly patented product shall be known by a new name and sold by all manufacturers under the same name, such name to be selected by the Unification Board. All private trademarks and brand names are hereby abolished.

Point Four. No new devices, inventions, products, or goods of any nature whatsoever, not now on the market, shall be produced, invented, manufactured or sold after the date of this directive. The Office of Patents and Copyrights is hereby suspended.

gherkin0• 10 years ago

For those who don't get this reference (I didn't), it appears to be from Atlas Shrugged:

http://theexplanationproject.wikia.com/wiki/Directive_10-289

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:_Part_II

https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/a/atlas-shrugged/summ...

draw_down• 10 years ago

Gross.

FreedomToCreate4• 10 years ago

This would work. I don't understand why people shrug away these types of ideas.

EDIT: This was an ironic statement meant to reference Atlas Shrugged. I'm sure most people caught it, but its definitely interesting to see how primed up people are to voice an opinion. Its a good thing, if you take your time to understand what the other person has said. I believe is this a great representation of what is currently happening on both the left and right. People go straight for their opinions and demonize others without taking the brief moment to listen and think.

acchow• 10 years ago

All workers, wage earners and employees of any kind whatsoever shall henceforth be attached to their jobs and shall not leave nor be dismissed nor change employment, under penalty of a term in jail.

So if you're a doctor but actually discover one day you'd much rather be a musician and actually you eventually hate being a doctor, you just have to suck it up?

Sounds like Point Four needs to be extended far beyond "no new devices, inventions, products, or goods of any nature whatsoever" to include "no new ideas, thoughts, emotions, or any cognitive state of any nature whatsoever" to get the kind of static state they're seeking.

dhess• 10 years ago

Never have I seen a more ironic username.

SubZero• 10 years ago

I think you tried to make a pun but people took you literally.

bjornstjerne• 10 years ago

It's kinda unfortunate that this is the top comment. Couldn't we talk about Turkey instead of quoting books that are at best marginally related to the present situation?

blastrat• 10 years ago

it appears your point, while well made, is covered by Point Eight. "All cases arising from and rules not specifically provided for in this directive, shall be settled and determined by the Unification Board, whose decisions will be final."

source: gherkin0 and http://theexplanationproject.wikia.com/wiki/Directive_10-289

noobermin• 10 years ago

Atatürk must be turning in his grave. Can any Turks comment on this whole thing?

EDIT: from DominikR, it seems the Turkish government is encouraging others to report online posts of anti-government sentiment. Be careful to post anonymously if you are willing to post from within Turkey.

squidfood• 10 years ago

Sure. It's horrible.

I've been out-of-country for a while, but my (very anti-islamist) family is basically saying "best hope is ending up like Iran, worst hope is Syria". There are continuing widespread, scary daily rallies of Islamist-supporters whipping up a frenzy, and secularists are completely cowed with no way forward. The secularist state is being completely dismantled.

mathattack• 10 years ago

Approximately 10 years ago a colleague of mine said, "Visit Turkey now, it's headed towards Iran. All the business people are visiting Mosques to get blessings on their deals." It seemed alarmist, and for much of the past 10 years I laughed at how wrong he was. Whoops!

kyriakos4• 10 years ago

If secularists take the streets it will eventually turn into a Syria situation. If they do nothing Turkey will become the new Iran.

019230191• 10 years ago

Does HN allow account creation via Tor? Will you be flagged in Turkey if you use Tor?

DominikR4• 10 years ago

The Turkish government has already called for reporting to the police (with screenshot) all anti-government statements on Twitter and Facebook by Turks. So yes, I expect that many dissenting civilians will get into trouble.

anonymousturk• 10 years ago

We were first confused about why coup was incredibly terrible. Starting it with a tank on the Istanbul bridge instead of easily picking up Erdogan from the hotel he is staying in a vacation town; Not destroying Erdogan's palace; Doing some symbolic things on prime time hours instead of 2am; Having no direction or aim other than making some show with tanks and airplanes.

Now, it is very clear to everyone that it was a fake coup. So that Erdogan can do his regime change without getting any resistance. Anyone who is against is a coup supporter and will be dumped to tens of thousands of people on the prisons, after getting beaten up by Islamist running around.

One of the significant changes he has made was to make mosques a part of the new regime. Mosques are now doing they have never done since the establishment of republic 90 years ago. The mosques are now constantly making announcement and telling Erdogan's people to "go outside and hunt coup supporters for the love of god".

A civil war has started but we don't know it yet. I hope I am wrong.

ajmurmann2• 10 years ago

What happens if there is no civil war? The bad guys win without a civil war?

kyriakos4• 10 years ago

It's not a civil war unless two groups of people are clashing. In this case it seems that the opposition has been dismantled and it's members are being hunted down. What's the response from the opposition parties?

I hope you are already planning to leave the country cause from what you're saying it's going to get uglier.

darkhorn• 10 years ago

The government is still scared. Currently the gates of military bases and entrance to the parliament is closed with tractors and construction vehicles. They think that a second wave can occur at any moment.

Today Erdoğan declared that he has a surprise tomorrow. https://eksisozluk.com/20-temmuz-2016-rtenin-aciklayacagi-bu...

DominikR4• 10 years ago

It is clear to me that the West wanted Erdogan gone (for good reasons) although I'm not insinuating that the US had any part in the failed coup.

But after these extensive purges it will be basically impossible to remove the elite that rose with Erdogan for the next decades, of that much I'm sure.

History has shown again and again that purges are a cruel but still extremely effective tool. After this there will be no opposition left.

I even expect that Turkey will leave NATO within the next years and get closer to Russia/China/Iran.

edko• 10 years ago

Soon, it will be known that Galatasaray was behind the coup too.

gumby• 10 years ago

Viktor Orbán's Hungarian dream! In his case he doesn't even have a majority, simply a plurality. But it was enough to purge the press and neuter the judiciary.

And if you haven't read it, this is a timely read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can%27t_Happen_Here

ajmurmann2• 10 years ago

This to me again pushes the question when it's OK to overthrow a democratically elected government. All western governments and even the Turkish opposition came out against the coup because it was "undemocratic". However, I believe there is definitely a line somewhere that a democratically elected government cannot cross without losing legitimacy and making a coup the right thing to do regardless of the remaining popular support. Had Erdogan crossed that line? If so, what was that line? If he didn't cross it what would be that line.

I'm sure we all can agree that there is such s line since we probably all can agree that Hitler crossed it although I'm not sure in his case where exactly that line was either. Maybe when he dismantled the parliament? Maybe earlier?

Grishnakh4• 10 years ago

Hitler was democratically elected. If you oppose any coup that's undemocratic, then you necessarily have to oppose the attempted coups against Hitler. Hitler had great support among his people, even after he dismantled Parliament. After all, he was a strong leader for his country, and his people liked that, just like the Turkish people love Erdogan for the same.

As for as crossing a line, because he was democratically elected, there's two lines to cross: 1) when he makes death camps and starts gassing large numbers of his own people (probably minorities like the Kurds, or various secularists), and 2) when he invades some other country.

In WWII, other nations only finally did something after Germany invaded too many countries (they gave him a pass on Poland, saying "we'll have peace in our time!" by appeasing him). They didn't care about the death camps, until after they defeated Germany and then decided to punish them for those. Just like they didn't care about the genocide in Rwanda.

I imagine the situation with Turkey will be much the same.

bluejekyll3• 10 years ago

they gave him a pass on Poland

Um, the invasion of Poland was what caused England to declare war, and ask France to do the same.

learc837• 10 years ago

They didn't care about the death camps, until after they defeated Germany and then decided to punish them for those.

The allies didn't know about the death camps until 1942. They were already at war with Germany in 1942, and they issued a public condemnation of Hitler's attempt to exterminate the Jewish race at the end of that year.

Hitler was democratically elected.

He wasn't elected, he was appointed Chancellor then used violence and intimidation to rise to power. Only about 1/3 of the population supported the Nazis in the elections before 1933. Later after the Reichstag fire, the government enacted emergency measures limiting left wing opposition parties and arrested many communist leaders. You can't call anything that happened after that a free and open election.

hx8711• 10 years ago

To be fair though, Turkey doesn't have any countries around it that it can invade without getting stomped by either Russia or the rest of NATO.

IMO, a coup can be justified if those that carry it out a) will be better governors than those they overthrew and b) they have popular legitimacy. By that standard, a Reichswehr coup in 1933 would have been justified, but the half-assed Turkish coup that has just happened wouldn't.

serge2k• 10 years ago

they gave him a pass on Poland

They declared war 2 days after Germany attacked Poland. "Peace in our time" was a year earlier.

aphextron2• 10 years ago

I imagine the situation with Turkey will be much the same.

Highly doubtful. Turkey is a NATO member who's entire defense strategy hinges on that alliance. We don't live in the 20th century anymore. Countries are far too interdependent for a war of territorial aggression to be effective.

bluejekyll3• 10 years ago

Hitler crossed that line when he used the brown shirts to suppress the vote and intimidate any voices that were counter to theirs. That was years before they dissolved parliament.

I would say this reaction to the failed coup is probably too extreme, and is being used (similar to crystal nacht after a terrorist attack) to dismantle criticts of the govt.

dogma1138• 10 years ago

The reaction isn't new this was happening to turkey for years now, post coup it just accelerated and now it's in swoops instead of a trickle.

Erdogan replaced a lot of the officers, judges and key figures in the educational and judicial system over the years, cracked down on the press which lead to closure of many independent news sources and really been acting like a dictator including attempts at altering the constitution Of the country completely.

learc837• 10 years ago

Everyone came out against this coup because they either thought it was orchestrated by the other islamist faction, or thought it would fail.

If a secular military coup looked likely to be successful, the west would be ecstatic.

utopcell• 10 years ago

elaborate

jessriedel2• 10 years ago

Who thought this was orchestrated by another other islamist faction in the military? I never heard during any of the coverage that anyone thought the folks behind the coup weren't secular.

simonh3• 10 years ago

If a secular military coup looked likely to be successful, the west would be ecstatic.

What the West wants is a secular, pluralistic, economically and socially secure and stable Turkey under the rule of law. A military government might tick one or two of those boxes in the short term, but the rest (and all of them long term) can only be achieved via democracy.

gonvaled22• 10 years ago

Sadly, this could have been avoided 20-15 years ago when Turkey was pretty liberal and aproaching the EU. This has been the biggest mistake of the EU history: letting the right declare it a christian club, and thus losing both a moderate islamic country and a bridge to the middle east.

Erdogan understood long ago that Turkey would never be accepted in the EU (even with big pressure coming from USA and UK) and has used the EU membership as a bargaining chip.

Now the membership option is openly dead, and Erdogan can proceed with his fundamentalist agenda.

Also, having been clearly betrayed by EU and OTAN in this military coup, he really has nothing to worry about anymore. Turkey will be out of NATO soon, and it will become a Russia ally.

What a blunder the west is playing: only 25 years after the URSS collapse, and instead of integrating Russia into the global institucions, the USA decided to proffit the strategic advantage to expand and provoke. We have managed to turn the possibility of true global integration, collaboration and progress into a new cold (actually warm and soon hot) war.

kyriakos4• 10 years ago

Easily forgotten but Turkey is occupying an EU members land.

cloudjacker4• 10 years ago

elaborate?

hrehhf• 10 years ago

And the UK is occupying another EU member's land, northern Ireland. The UK has their reasons as does Turkey.

hx8711• 10 years ago

It won't be easy for Turkey to become a Russian ally. For one, the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflicts have to be resolved once and and for all, Russia has to drop Armenia, or Turkey has to drop Azerbaijan. None of the above is likely at this point. For another, either Turkey has to drop the "moderate Islamist" rebels in Syria or Russia has to drop the Assad government and Iran. Again, neither is likely to happen.

So for the time being they're on their own. Hell, they can't even ally with most Sunni governments in the region because they've pissed all of them off by supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.

gonvaled22• 10 years ago

Turkey has a lot of rubbing points with the west and that has not prevented it to be a NATO member for decades. You need to compromise and obviate issues, and this can happen between Turkey and Russia.

mucker• 10 years ago

What on Earth are you talking about. Let's presume you are right and Turkey wasn't being kept out for things like, oh as another pointed out, an occupation of Turkey and Cyprus, how does blocking them from joining the EU make them less moderate? Does the EU have magic dust that effects religious outcomes?

pjlegato9• 10 years ago

Indeed, Hungary shows the EU's magic dust has little to no ability to induce moderation.

gonvaled22• 10 years ago

I dont know. They were moderate, we said they dont belong to EU because they are muslim (lots of people said that), and they became fundamentalist.

It is true that fundamentalism is on the rise worldwide (also in christian countries) but my impression is that, in Turkeys case, it was the EU attitude which caused lots of turkish people to vote for a strong islamic president.

pjlegato9• 10 years ago

Russia actively refused integration in order to preserve its autonomy. It was not in any sense a result of the US denying them integration.

Also, you are assuming that true global integration is both possible and necessarily a good thing, which are both far from clear.

gonvaled22• 10 years ago

Missile shield in Poland. I rest my case.

Global collaboration and integration is surely better than conflict, and I dont see a third option, long term.

spriggan33• 10 years ago

This has been the biggest mistake of the EU history

Turkey was never "liberal",the majority of Turkish people were always "conservative" Muslims. Istanbul doesn't represent all Turkey .this is a fantasy invented by the people who wanted Turkey in the EU. It's not the EU's fault if Turkey ends up like yet another dictatorship in the middle east. So stop blaming the EU for that. That's a lie.

gonvaled22• 10 years ago

But fundamentalism was a declining ideology. The EU gave it renewed strength.

AnimalMuppet3• 10 years ago

Also, having been clearly betrayed by EU and OTAN in this military coup...

How was he betrayed by the EU in this coup? I can see no evidence for that statement, from the limited amount I know about the situation.

gonvaled22• 10 years ago

The EU in particular waited until it was pretty clear that the coup was going to fail before siding with “turkish democracy“. The dramatic events taking place in Turkey were received with silence for over 4 hours from the EU. Clearly, they were hoping that the coup would prove succesful to drop annoying Erdogan.

The USA, experienced as they are, were more nuanced, siding with democracy early on, without clearly specifying what they meant.

Nobody explicitely defended the elected government until the coup was obviously failing. Pretty oportunist if you ask me:

https://twitter.com/gonvaled/status/754121385878913024

https://twitter.com/gonvaled/status/754079673403994112

https://twitter.com/gonvaled/status/754070719110193152

Pretty sure Erdogan felt betrayed.

bpodgursky• 10 years ago

The only upside of Turkey overtly collapsing is that nobody will be able to pretend anymore there are real examples of functioning Muslim democracies.

Pretty sad, given what it used to be.

gonvaled22• 10 years ago

This is a catastrophe! If muslims do not make it into the modern era, what are the alternatives?

We can not build walls between blocks, so perpetual war is the only answer.

Losing Turkey is even worse than losing the UK - and both are probably connected: Turkey is abusing a weakened EU.

Collaboration and compromise is falling apart: welcome to BoJo's future, where everything is a trade and people have no rights.

pas4• 10 years ago

I think the loss of civil liberties in Poland are worse than any kind of Brexit in a sense. Though both signal a fucked up populace. Just as submitting to a supernatural being that so far provided 0 bit of its existence.

Eventually things will have to give. Navigating our increasingly global, complex, many-faceted, and all in all stranger world requires firm roots in rationality, of course, only if one wants to really get somewhere not just hide from the hard problems of life.

So far, it seems, we have billions of people very much reluctant to face this reality. Fighting tooth and nail against every kind of revelation, instead butchering reality to make it fit to their worldview.

sa-mao2• 10 years ago

This entire thread and the common trends in western media makes me think that Turkey will be soon destroyed, and will be joining other failed countries. Clearly not by raw force since this military coup failed to achieve his goals. I will always be amazed how the west manage to slaughter third world countries and still has political support from the people.

gwright• 10 years ago

Your last sentence has an implied assumption that 'third world countries' have no independent agency, that their success or failure is derived primarily from 'the West'.

Isn't it possible that the more direct cause of success or failure are the circumstances and choices made by the people within these countries?

sa-mao2• 10 years ago

What you are saying is definitely true. People in third world countries made over the past many bad decisions, and I think that is mostly due to the lack of education, and an absence of honorable ruling class. But still the west is playing a big role in that matter too. those countries are still maintaining bad influence over their colonies or areas of interest. Draining at the same time human and financial wealth crucial for these countries to rise as decent nations. Mallence give an interesting talk on that matter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pvNp9gHjfk

knowaveragejoe5• 10 years ago

How is this story so popular yet already fallen off the front page after 2 hours?

jacobolus• 10 years ago

Any time comments outnumber upvotes, a “flamewar” detector is triggered, and the discussion drops off the front page.

knowaveragejoe5• 10 years ago

Seems potentially useful in some cases but overall obvious as to how it would garner false positives. Basically limits things to 1 comment per person who upvoted.

Pica_soO2• 10 years ago

Imagine to sit in such a parliament, and the vote for the reintroduction of the death penalty comes up. Do you vote for it? If you don't vote for it- you surely get on El presidents list. If you vote for it, you might get on that list... later. Imagine one would send out a fake "purge" list with nearly everyone in parliament on it. Robespierre rule ended that way.

Thus the Madman, enters his final stage.

PopsiclePete3• 10 years ago

Pol Pot also didn't like the intellectuals. In general, the intelligentsia is always troublesome for Despots. They're usually one of the first groups to be purged.

Turkey is firmly bent on following Iran's lead.

Ladies and Gentlemen - Ayatollah Supreme Leader Sultan Erdogan I, The Glorious, The Ever-Wise, Founder of the Modern Islamic Republic of Turkey!

Turkey Extends Purge to Universities, Asking All Deans to Go

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