Good sleep, good learning, good life

http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm

by JesseAldridge • 16 years ago

152 61 16 years ago

supermemo.com

sivers• 16 years ago

I love this guy.

Great article about him here: http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/magazine/16-05/ff_woznia...

See his apology at the bottom of http://www.supermemo.com/english/company/wozniak.htm

michael_nielsen• 16 years ago

The apology is strange. It seems predicated on a false notion of efficiency, assuming that somehow one's interactions with other people can be "efficient" in the same sense as one's interactions with a book. But that's not at all true. I am reminded of Freeman Dyson's comment soon after he met Feynman:

"Feynman is a man whose ideas are as difficult to make contact with as Bethe's are easy; for this reason I have so far learnt much more from Bethe, but I think if stayed here much longer I should begin to find it was Feynman with whom I was working more."

More generally, working with and learning from other people requires dealing with all sorts of "inefficiencies"; they're not optional. But if you're working with the right people, those inefficiencies are more than compensated for in other ways.

Luc2• 16 years ago

> working with and learning from other people requires dealing with all sorts of "inefficiencies"; they're not optional.

I don't think he's all that interested in working with other people. In other words, he's not seeking to optimize his relationship with other people so much as he is finding a convenient excuse for not seeing other people at all.

Mz5• 16 years ago

I actually like his apology. It resonates with how I have been living of late. I don't expect to do things exactly like I this "forever", but if you have a serious goal, it can be extremely effective (and even necessary) to cut out distractions and refuse to participate in social expectations that you have realized add little or nothing of value but take away a lot from you in terms of time, energy, mental distraction and so forth.

I also like this bit from the article and very much identify with the sentiment he expresses:

Bundled up in parkas with fur-trimmed hoods, strolling hand in mittened hand along the edge of the Baltic Sea, off-season tourists from Germany stop openmouthed when they see a tall, well-built, nearly naked man running up and down the sand. "Kalt? Kalt?" one of them calls out. The man gives a polite but vague answer, then turns and dives into the waves. After swimming back and forth in the 40-degree water for a few minutes, he emerges from the surf and jogs briefly along the shore. The wind is strong, but the man makes no move to get dressed. Passersby continue to comment and stare. "This is one of the reasons I prefer anonymity," he tells me in English. "You do something even slightly out of the ordinary and it causes a sensation."

goodside• 16 years ago

Disclaimer: I'm not a doctor, a neurologist, or an endocrinologist. I'm in no way qualified to be talking about this.

I have a fairly severe form of delayed sleep-phase syndrome: left to my own devices, as when I was on summer vacation back in school, I would gladly stay awake for 24 hours and sleep for 12. I've long noticed anecdotally this pattern is associated with geeks. Ask yourself: if a 6:00 AM Twitter update says your geekiest friend is waiting for his code to compile, is it because he woke up early or because he hasn't been to bed yet?

It turns out there's a reason for this. There's a gene called the ASMT gene, which codes for enzymes responsible (in part) for the synthesis of melatonin from serotonin in the pineal gland. This gene is often deleted in individuals with autism or Aspergers syndrome, which results in extremely low levels of serum melatonin. The effect is so strong that even family members of autistic children, even those not themselves diagnosed with autism or Aspergers, have been shown to have abnormally depressed melatonin levels. More information: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2199264/

Melatonin is one of the biggest chemical regulators of the sleep cycle in humans, and increased melatonin at night has been shown experimentally to reduce the time of sleep onset. I'm not aware of any studies comparing the effect size between autistic/Aspergers patients and healthy controls, but it stands to reason that the former group might stand more to gain.

I've personally experienced tremendous benefit in my sleep patterns from taking melatonin. I spent my entire teenage life showing up to classes in a sleep-deprived haze because I wasn't aware of this. Hopefully I can save someone else from that.

Now, for the catch: We have no idea why Aspergers symptoms are associated with reduced melatonin synthesis. Melatonin is a regulator of neural plasticity during fetal and early childhood brain development. Melatonin is synthesized from serotonin, and serotonin levels at various stages of development are drastically different in autistics/Aspergers compared to healthy children. We don't know to what extent these are causes or effects of autistic symptoms, and what effect there might be on development from long-term melatonin supplementation during early childhood. However, in healthy adults, the safety of long-term melatonin use, even at doses many dozens of times higher than the maximum clinically effective dose, has been shown to be completely safe. How you generalize from that is up to you.

Mz5• 16 years ago

I've personally experienced tremendous benefit in my sleep patterns from taking melatonin.

I did better with taking co-q-10 in the morning. For a long time, I couldn't tolerate melatonin. I would feel like I wasn't fully awake for up to three days after taking it. When my health improved enough that I could tolerate it, I still needed co-q-10 in the morning to feel fully awake.

Co-q-10 is the co-enzyme of melatonin and wakes your brain up in the morning. It is made in the body in a complex (17 step?) process. A bottleneck at any stage can leave you deficient, so many people are deficient. If you take co-q-10 in the morning, your body will produce a small melatonin spike about 12 or so hours later. If you take melatonin, it does not increase production of co-q-10. So taking co-q-10 can do a lot more in terms of healing both sides of waking/sleeping cycle of the brain chemistry. It is also gentler/subtler than melatonin.

Lots of people use melatonin to good effect, so I'm not trying to knock it. Just trying to expand on the topic of nutritional supplements and brain chemistry wrt the waking/sleeping cycle. Thanks for bringing this up. :-)

nazgulnarsil• 16 years ago

I'm betting on a placebo effect of the melatonin. taken in pill form it is only effective for a few hours.

gwern• 16 years ago

What happens if you use both melatonin & co-q-10?

nzmsv• 16 years ago

Some quick googling did not find anything about CoQ10 being related to melatonin. I'd be interested in learning more about this. Do you have any sources?

pavs• 16 years ago

I have taken CO-Q10 for a period of 6 months several years ago. It is bit on the expensive side, as far supplements goes. I used to take it to help me stay alert. I didn't see any difference in my general alert level. I kept on taking it because I was under the impression it might take me longer than couple of months to see any improvements. I increased dose, changed brand; nothing happened.

Currently I am only taking Fish Oil (Omega 3&5) and St. John's Wort. Both helps me with my anxiety and sleep.

I used to stay awake for 24-36 hours at a time quite often with 12-16 hours sleep in between. Relied heavily on caffeine and my anxiety was off the roof. I completely stopped caffeine from my diet. Drink decaf. Tea. Exercise first thing in the morning to burn up most of my energy so that I get tired by the end of day and help me sleep. I still end up staying awake for ~20hrs a day, which is closer to my goal of ~16hrs and better than previous habit of staying awake for ~30hrs.

If you have problem sleeping, kill the caffeine and it will solve half of your problems.

esspem• 16 years ago

I think i have a DSPS too, but instead of fighting it, i live with my cycle (around 25 hours). Impossibility to work in office hours forces me to be independent, so it's not so bad.

dejb• 16 years ago

Sorry dude I accidentally downvoted your you due to being foggy while waking up.

kiba4• 16 years ago

High school students like me, unfortunately do not have means to get the necessary good sleep that everyone needs.

The school system will continue to impose this miserable condition on us.

epochwolf2• 16 years ago

Just wait until you do regular 8 hours shifts at a warehouse. School will seem like a pleasant dream you were rudely awakened from.

Xichekolas• 16 years ago

While the 8 hrs of just about any manual labor job is much more work than 8 hrs at school, at least you don't have to worry about it when you go home.

I worked several manual labor jobs during summer breaks in high school, and the freedom to think about whatever you wanted at night (instead of homework or activities) was at least mentally liberating, even if I was dead tired from moving boxes of tomatoes all day.

OldHippie2• 16 years ago

Yeah, wait until you're older and have a corp desk job. The days spent toiling moving furniture will feel like your past life as a greek god. You'll look back on stuffing any food you want into a naturally evolving muscular machine of a body as your ass slowly forms into a chair shape around the dent of your paid for yet unused Snap-Fitness card.

Goladus2• 16 years ago

Unless you're operating dangerous machinery, you don't need as much sleep to work effectively at a warehouse. 6-7 hours and to recover physically and then a couple days off every so often to rest and you'll be fine. You don't have to think much, you just have to be strong and willing to exert effort.

Plus, getting to sleep at night when working a warehouse job is pretty easy, you're usually exhausted when you get home and have nothing to do but eat and sleep.

It's much different than a technical job that requires focus, concentration, inspiration, and mental discipline. Much different from work that requires social interaction with people. The mental states associated with lack of sleep can be disastrous in those environments.

encoderer2• 16 years ago

While some studies have indicated that adolecents would benefit from starting classes later in the day, I don't believe it's the silver bullet that you believe it is.

I'm 27, and I quoted that when I was in High School. But the truth is, I seldom was wound-down and in bed by 9 or 10 PM. I was irresponsible with my bed time. All my friends were the same.

I think you would be surprised at how much of the "misery" you and your peers are self-imposing. Do your homework when you get home, skip the Daily Show, shut off the computer by 9PM, and in bed by 10. I understand you'll think "easier said than done" but if you're truly miserable, take some responsibility for it!

dunstad• 16 years ago

While some of the staying-up-lateness may be self imposed, my Google searches show that puberty brings with it a natural change in circadian rythym, which isn't something the teens can do much about.

http://www.healthcentral.com/sleep-disorders/caregiving-2708...

http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/adolescent.html

mechanical_fish• 16 years ago

I think you would be surprised at how much of the "misery" you and your peers are self-imposing.

It's a pity the article is so long, because otherwise you might have encountered this sentence before composing a reply:

It won't be enough to demand an early hour for going to bed. If you ban the late evening Internet surfing, you will just swap a dose of evening education for an idle tossing and turning in bed.

You can't necessarily change your biological clock by an effort of will, even if you know exactly what you are doing -- which few people do. Your biological clock has a "mind" of its own. No matter how much "responsibility" you take for your schedule, and how much intelligence and full-spectrum lighting you apply to the problem, you may find yourself unable to be optimally awake at 7am. Especially if you are a teenager.

Meanwhile, I'm afraid that everything about this reply rubs me the wrong way. It is a textbook example of its kind [1], and it illustrates why broken designs persist for decade upon decade. School day starts too early for the typical young person's biological clock? We survived it, so should you! Third-shift workers causing accidents at 3am? Your grandpa worked third shift and survived with 80% of his fingers intact; so should you! Medical interns forced to work continuous shifts of 24 hours or more, even though studies have shown that they therefore make avoidable errors that harm patients? We survived it, so should you!

It's so much easier to instruct the victim on coping techniques than it is to contemplate changing the system that it becomes a reflex: You poke an adult, and out pops a sanctimonious lecture.

---

[1] The world would be a better place if every text editor came with an alarm that rang every time someone typed the word peers. ("Hi! Microsoft Word has noticed that you sound just like your mom! Can Clippy help you with that?")

mburney• 16 years ago

If you were seldom in bed by 10 and your friends were the same, it is unlikely that high school students today will do any different. Why not propose a solution based on what people generally do rather than telling them what they should do.

jamii2• 16 years ago

I went to a military boarding school. Plenty of exercise and fresh air. In bed and lights out by 10, with roaming patrols to ensure no noise was made. And still I tossed and turned until the early hours of the morning and was exhausted all day.

Every fourth week on Sunday there would be no enforced wakeup time. Without exception the entire house would sleep in till early afternoon at least.

Goladus2• 16 years ago

When I was in high school, I frequently got home at 7:00pm or later. Or else, I got home at 3:00 and then had to go back for rehearsal or practice by 5:30.

The time I did have free would be broken up by changing clothes and eating dinner (making it if parents weren't home) and taking a dump.

I've now been working at a company for 3 years where hours have been flexible (core 10am-4pm). I use an alarm clock once a week (a 7:00 AM meeting on wednesday) which I only need about half the time. Yes, sometimes I have sleeping problems and I can trace them directly to choices and habits (often, though, they are really hard choices-- eg spend time with girlfriend or not). But it's still enormously easier to avoid chronic tiredness when you don't get stuck in a bad-sleep cycle where you can't fall asleep at night and get forced out of bed every morning before the sun comes up.

mroman2• 16 years ago

I have Asperger's and DSPS, and have noticed that taking Piracetam helps me regulate my sleep cycle. On days when I take it, I begin to feel sleepy right around my 16th hour of being awake. I have also noticed that when I have not had decent sleep for a few days, taking Piracetam puts me to sleep within a couple of hours of taking it.

jamii2• 16 years ago

I found exactly the same thing. I've had problems for years with roving sleep cycles to the point that it seriously interfered with my life. After I started taking piracetam it settled down within a week or two. I also wake up feeling completely refreshed and ready to go. I haven't seen this effect documented anywhere - it was completely unexpected.

mroman2• 16 years ago

It is good to know that you experienced this effect as well. I also have not seen it documented anywhere. The stuff is simply great. I am in a third world country (Colombia) and in a backwater town to boot, and Piracetam is both readily available and inexpensive. What's more, it's a local generic brand, and the quality is very decent.

cool-RR• 16 years ago

I hope someone will post a summary of this here.

epochwolf2• 16 years ago

It's hard to summarize. There is a lot of data and a lot of stuff to cover. I'll grab a couple of parts for you and I hope others can summarize others for you. :)

Why we need sleep:

Your brain needs sleep because your brain uses it to organized and optimized the experiences of the day. Without sleep your brain is unable to support new learning.

olliesaunders• 16 years ago

Read it, it's worth it. And if you don't think sleep is important enough to read this much about just start reading it and the author will convince you.

lunchbox• 16 years ago

Summary (from the bottom of the page):

Sleep is important for learning! Sleep deprivation results in intellectual deprivation!

Sleep as much as you feel you need

Avoid alarm clocks

Forget about trying to fall asleep at pre-planned time! Let your body decide!

Forget about trying to fall asleep quickly! If your body decides it is the right time, it will come naturally!

Do not try to make yourself sleepy! It is enough you stay awake and keep on working/learning long enough!

It is much better to eliminate the source of stress rather than to try to forget stressful situations right before the bedtime!

Learn the details of your sleep timing (how many hours you sleep, how many hours before you need to take a nap or go to sleep again, etc.). Use this knowledge to optimize your schedule.

Adjust the timing of intellectual work to your circadian cycle (see Fig. 5)

Stick with good people! The bad lot will often ruin your slumber

Be careful with caffeine. Drink coffee only upon awakening (or after a nap if you take one)

Do not go beyond a single drink of alcohol per day. Drink it at siesta time

Quit smoking!

Use siesta time for a nap if you find it helpful

If you cannot fall asleep in 30 minutes, get up! You are not yet ready for sleep!

If you experience racing thoughts at the time when your body calls for sleep, the best method is: get up and use ... SuperMemo for 30 minutes! Few other activities can be equally taxing to your tired brain (do not expect this to work before your circadian timing though)

If you sleep it out and still not feel refreshed, be sure you do not sleep against your circadian rhythm. Try free running sleep. Remember that you may need 1-2 weeks to synchronize all bodily functions before this starts working!

If you cannot get refreshing sleep even in free-running conditions after at least a month of trying, consult a sleep specialist (see: Sleep Disorders). Remember, however, that a bad night is a factor of life. Few can avoid it. Do not get alarmed even if it happens weekly

I'd be interested if a qualified person could corroborate these recommendations.

vijaydev2• 16 years ago

Is it not ironical if at 0130 hrs in the morning, i could not sleep and start browsing hn and i get to see an article that tells me to get a good sleep and life ?

vijaydev2• 16 years ago

0130 hrs IST it is ..

oldgregg2• 16 years ago

I've wasted way too much time due to sleep issues.

My Miracle Mix:

- Morning: 100m Provigil (ordered from an Indian pharmacy, naturally!)

- Night: Melatonin

I don't take provigil on the weekends and sometimes skip a weekday so I don't build up tolerance to it. Some people say it's like adderall without any nasty side effects. Just do it and thank me later.

maneesh• 16 years ago

any side effects? Stay up too late?

oldgregg2• 16 years ago

Nadda. Just don't take it in the afternoon or evening.

Good sleep, good learning, good life

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