Alienation Is Killing Americans and Japanese

http://nautil.us/blog/alienation-is-killing-americans-and-japanese

by dnetesn • 10 years ago

114 202 10 years ago

marak830• 10 years ago

I was actually just talking to my wife today about a zenbo. I'm waiting for information (signed up for the developer program), but it seems good from the videos I saw (heh huge grain of salt here, perhaps a whole stack).

I like the idea of a mobile video equipped assistant with voice recognition that can contact us in an emergency, and their pretty happy with tech so I don't think we would have a problem convincing them(especially if I an code an app for them and their grand children to communicate easily).

https://zenbo.asus.com

eva1984• 10 years ago

Why US is different from all the other countries in the charts? If author's hypothesis is right, that it is mainly about declining of economic status, I cannot see why other western countries would not follow a similar pattern.

And from the chart, US's (whites) death rates takes off starting from late 90s, where the economy was doing great, while other countries' death rates keep declining even during great recession.

meric3• 10 years ago

> particularly the breakdown of the traditional multigenerational Japanese family

According to the article. It's because grandparents no longer stay with family, and divorces.

simonbarker874• 10 years ago

An article on HN last week discussed the idea of a class of people called the Unnecessariat (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11765581) where a large swatch of people no longer have a place in society thanks to declining manufacturing jobs (and potentially the automation of farming) in the middle of America and as such these people have been left to die by the state as they are surplus to requirements in the modern economy. This is less of a factor in European countries potentially because they are geographically smaller, have a lower population and more left/socialist leaning that the US.

distances3• 10 years ago

The Unnecessariat also linked to a Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/04/08/we-dont...) describing the life and death of one of those who died too young, in rural Oklahoma. A good read, while of course so very sad that we can't see a solution to this phenomenon.

ddebernardy• 10 years ago

It's less of a factor in the EU because the average Joe here hasn't voted their own safety nets away (yet).

madengr• 10 years ago

Or maybe no one gives a crap about white males; they are just mysoginist, racist, oppressors.

Gigablah• 10 years ago

From the article: "The study found that the death rate was increasing particularly quickly for white women."

seren• 10 years ago

I believe people in the US are more mobile, so you can end up living in area where you are 1000 kilometers away from your children or family.

In Europe, people are generally less mobile (geographically) and countries are smaller, so you can still work in the city and still live in the vicinity of your elderly parents (let's say one-two hour drive).

Maybe less obvious, but people in Europe also tend to have more vacation (understatement), so it is much easier to visit your family more frequently.

As a European I am always surprised that people only see their family during Thanksgiving. I don't have data but looking at people I know, you see your family much more frequently there.

qihqi• 10 years ago

Not to mention that the definition of "family" is distinct too. If you ask an American, do you have family in this city, it is same as asking are you married/have kids. While people of other culture might answer, "yeah my mom is here".

baron8166• 10 years ago

All these problems (as the author mentions) are closely related to lower rates of social connectedness. This is obviously a huge problem, probably the biggest problem in the advanced world, yet it seems to be mostly ignored. My company, Krewe (https://www.gokrewe.com), is addressing it by trying to make it really easy for people to make a new group of friends in their neighborhood and become connected with their local community, but I really think other start ups should try to address the issue of loneliness and (real) social connectedness in the world.

minikites4• 10 years ago

I know a popular meme in SV/tech culture is that apps can solve everything but this is a much harder problem than that, requiring a societal and possibly government response. I don't think you can even begin to address it at the scale of one startup, at best you can skim some money off the top.

Bartweiss10• 10 years ago

This is the sort of issue that the term 'wicked problem' was coined for. It's a unique issue, with society-wide consequences, no clear boundaries, and no clear solutions. Solving it with a startup is unimaginably glib.

Sure, some could probably help, but I imagine they'll either be palliatives (like 7 Cups of Tea) or enablers for human actions (like Skype). I normally assume that "startups will solve it all!" is more of an exaggeration than an actual opinion, but this thread has me doubting myself.

cousin_it2• 10 years ago

Imagine an old depressed person who needs a daily dose of human empathy, just like everyone else, but can't give anything in return. Can your startup help such a person? I'm with the other commenter, this is a societal problem. To make even a small dent, we need an army of volunteers with calliagnosia or Williams syndrome, or something even more drastic...

baron8166• 10 years ago

I don't know for sure if it's possible to use an app to help those kinds of people, but I honestly believe that it doesn't take much more than a comfortable environment and convenient access to people to bring them together. I'm at least giving it a shot.

simonbarker874• 10 years ago

Not the main focus of the article but I've been wondering lately why Japan is considered to have done poorly over the last 30 years economically when a lot of the big multi national brands that are very popular all over the world during that period are Japanese.

I'm not an economist (or Japanese) but from the outside when you can list Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Suburu, Shimano, Nintendo, Hitachi, Yamaha, Sega and Murata among your country's well known brands it seems odd that you would be considered a poorly performing economy for so long.

Can anyone share some insight?

gkanai2• 10 years ago

Can anyone share some insight?

If you were around in the 1980s, when Japan was at it's economic peak, Japan has slowly been passed by China and continues to tread water (i.e. stay in the same place, as China has passed it.)

Japan is a poorly performing economy in that there's been little to no growth since the bubble burst in the late 80s. Other economies have gone through growth stages and we had the Asian financial crisis and then the '08 global crash, but Japan has just kept the status quo. So from the perspective of economists, who expect growth, Japan does look bad.

In Japan, life is largely as it has been since the 90s. In fact with deflation, prices are largely the same as they have been for more than 2 decades. This is not a good thing mostly- healthy economies should have some small amount of inflation each year.

Hope this helps? (I am Japanese, fwiw.)

simonbarker874• 10 years ago

Thanks, very interesting. I wasn't born until '87 so all I've ever known is Japan as it is now rather than growing in the way China has been.

napperjabber• 10 years ago

As an American living in Japan, life in Japan is a lot more enjoyable. From having lower healthcare costs to a more stable food budget.

greydius• 10 years ago

These companies became household names during a period of incredible economic growth in Japan (60s - 80's). But economic growth at that level is not sustainable (as China is finding out), and the country went into a recession in the 90's. Japan is still one of the wealthiest and most productive nations in the world, but the borrowing to fuel its growth has caught up, and it now has one of the largest debt-to-gdp ratios.

lgieron2• 10 years ago

but the borrowing to fuel its growth has caught up,

From what I've read, the Japanese public debt is mostly domestic, so it wasn't actually foreign money that was fueling the growth.

stonemetal• 10 years ago

While they may be Japanese brands they aren't Japanese companies, they are multi-nationals. Much like the US they have outsourced all of their manufacturing. A strong Honda that manufactures their motorcycles in Thailand and their cars in North America doesn't translate into robust Japanese employment. Fewer local jobs means less money going into the local economy.

Bartweiss10• 10 years ago

On some level, Japan's story isn't one of high hopes and stagnant results, it's one of amazing growth in face of reality. Even in our tech-rich, service-driven economies, national growth is still largely a function of population, space, and resources. Over a half-century, Japan modernized to near the peak of first world nations on a crowded, resource-poor island. With that played out, they're sustaining their position largely by adding value to the workforces and production capacities of other nations. You're absolutely right that a lot of Japan's corporate strength doesn't translate to GDP growth, but even flat GDP is damned impressive in a lot of ways.

logicchains• 10 years ago

Because for some reason many commentators find it perfectly reasonable to use absolute GDP growth as a metric for comparing Japan to America, ignoring the fact that America's population is growing at around 3% while Japan's population growth is around 0% or negative (which means all things being equal one'd expect America's GDP growth to be around 3% higher). In terms of GDP growth per capita, which is the metric that actually matters when comparing standard of living, Japan hasn't done so badly.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/09/05/japan-is-...

nabla9• 10 years ago

Japanese government debt to GDP ratio is 229%. Japanese government has kept lights on with 15 years of constant deficit.

Fortunately most of this debt is internal and in local currency (no fear of hyperinflation). But Japanese are getting old. In a few years Japanese insurance companies and Japanese savers turn from net buyers of government debt and stocks into net sellers.

It's interesting to see what happens then.

ianai• 10 years ago

Really good point. Usually metrics are compared "per capita" in macroeconomics.

onecooldev243• 10 years ago

Just saying, if prostitution was legal these lonely males would at least have some sort of pleasure.

greggman2• 10 years ago

In Japan prostitution is effectively legal. It's not legal to have penis in vagina sex but everything else is legal and you can bet that all of the places that claim they provide everything but that also provide that service as well. There's tons of "red light" districts as well as call up places.

Even if you don't want sex Japan has a culture of hostess clubs and "snack" clubs. A hostess club is a club you pay to have someone flirt and talk with you. A snack club is a club were the owner entertains everyone. Think of bar where the bartender leads everyone in discussion, games, songs, etc...

In other words, Japan has that but is still having these issues.

onecooldev243• 10 years ago

I agree, but in the US its still illegal. Having such services will only help, rather than cause further isolation.

twoquestions2• 10 years ago

Funny you mention that, there was a story a few weeks back (damned if I can find it now) where Japanese people pay someone to hang out with them for a while. Not prostitution, just hanging out at a bar or something!

One thing I found striking, was when they do the customary handshake (which signals a bit more familiarity in Japan than it does in the US), the clients literally sometimes cry as they've not touched another human being for years!

onecooldev243• 10 years ago

I am pretty sure its the same here in the US for quite a few people.

joncrocks• 10 years ago

http://www.afar.com/magazine/the-incredibly-true-story-of-re...

tristor2• 10 years ago

Another part of this I think that people don't really talk about is increased social isolation as a direct cause of Internet addiction and the rise of social media and online gaming. There is a term for this concept in Japan 'hikikomori', but it's just as true in the US.

As someone who recently turned 30, yet has remained single most of my life despite my other successes, I see it very clearly. I grew up along with the Internet as many people in my generation did. Even when around other people in my age group, everyone is disconnected from each other. There's less empathy and relationships in my generation feel more superficial. At any moment, someone will pull out a smartphone and be using social media while literally standing around with a group of supposed friends. I'd say it's the group of people I've hung out with if it weren't for observing the same in the wild many many times.

I think we still haven't figured out what all the unintended consequences from technology are going to be, and I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't end up seeing a sharp decline in the birth rate among whites in the US to go along with the increase in younger deaths. Not just because of the consequences of social isolation on mental health, but because the lack of social connectedness that exists today makes it almost impossible to actually procreate.

minikites4• 10 years ago

remained single most of my life despite my other successes

I think the media has a role to play here too, the idea that you need romantic love in order to be successful or complete is a toxic one.

Edit: a lot of replies to my comment are misinterpreting what I'm saying as "romance is a new idea invented by the media" when all I said is that it's possible to have a complete and successful life without romance.

PaulHoule• 10 years ago

Plenty of people would get that idea without the media.

It is sublime how when you feel lonely you look for a lover and then pretty soon you have more people around. It makes heterosex seem almost subversive these days...

golergka• 10 years ago

This idea have been in place for ages, so I don't think we can connect it to changes that we see.

enraged_camel• 10 years ago

Loneliness due to lack of romantic relationships is a real thing.

supergreg• 10 years ago

Do you mean one does not need romantic love to have a relationship or one does not need a relationship at all? The former seems like an archaic idea (arranged marriages for example) while the later I've seen very questioned by society, mostly by older people.

tristor2• 10 years ago

I think that there's certainly some influence from the media on how people perceive how to obtain romantic relationships or how a romantic relationship works. That said, I personally don't consider it a requirement to find romance in order to be or feel successful. I do understand however that society in general somewhat views it that way, and I do feel like I am lacking in that department. For someone who is a bit of a completionist and has managed to do many other things in my life, my lack of romance is definitely somewhat troubling.

lmm2• 10 years ago

Interestingly that's a lot less the case in Japanese media IME. E.g. Honey and Clover concludes (spoilers) with Hagu deciding to pursue her art instead of a romantic relationship, which I can't imagine happening in a western movie or tv show.

CPLX• 10 years ago

I'm pretty sure we've been hardwired to seek sexual/romantic companionship since long, long, before there was such a thing as "media" or even the written word.

irremediable• 10 years ago

I'm really unsure of this. I can completely believe it, but I can also believe it's completely incorrect. Maybe it turns out people checking their phone while they're with you is fine -- doesn't hurt social bonding in any way. Some of my shyer friends tell me it's actually helped them thrive in social situations. Whenever they get overwhelmed, they can take shelter with the phone for a bit.

cableshaft3• 10 years ago

Before a smartphone, it was a TV. People would turn on the TV and ignore each other just as much as they do now with smartphones, it's just smartphones has made it more portable.

That being said, as an introvert, I also agree that it helps me in social situations not to always have to be communicate with people.

Bartweiss10• 10 years ago

It's funny - dealing with people who are under 25, most of them seem to be developing pretty good phone 'hygiene'. Smartphones come out all the time when I'm around my friends, but rarely in an antisocial way, and people who are being rude (not on a phone at a party, but on a phone with a couple of friends) are directly called out. The settings where I see the most "bad" phone use are between acquaintances, or with older demographics where smartphone penetration isn't high enough to generate these etiquette rules.

As a result, most of the phone use I see is socially beneficial. People can show an interesting video or look up a fact to keep a conversation rolling, and take shelter in their phones to avoid looking awkward when they have no one to talk to.

distances3• 10 years ago

One kind of a record in Finland was a man deceased for six years before anyone noticed. He had already mummified in his bed when found. Even the landlord didn't ask after him, as the rent was automatically paid by social services for this whole time.

There's also an English Wikipedia page of the case at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunula_mummy.

stevekemp• 10 years ago

Sadly this happens elsewhere in the world too although the case I remember was "only" dead for two years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joyce_Vincent

Having just moved to Finland I'm less believing of the stereotype that Finnish people as a whole are insular and isolated, but I think there are always going to be agoraphobic, depressed, or otherwise very isolated individuals in any country.

distances3• 10 years ago

I think the stereotype is partly due to the climate. The rainy autumns and long winters simply make one stay inside a lot more. As a small compensation, the summertime in Finland is super bright, lively, and active.

lmm2• 10 years ago

I would hope to have the option of disconnecting like that if I wanted to. I don't know about this man's circumstances, but the story implies a level of privacy that I'd find really valuable.

Bartweiss10• 10 years ago

This has become fairly common in Japan, but it seems to be almost exclusively about anomie and depression, not privacy. There are entire companies that exist to clean up after deceased, family-less shut-ins.

I agree that the ability to withdraw and obtain privacy is crucial, but I'd like to see options for privacy and isolation that don't require absolute disconnection.

DanielBMarkham3• 10 years ago

I interact with dozens of people daily. I tell jokes, I listen to their feelings, I applaud their conquests, I mourn their losses.

On the internet.

You think any of those people are going to miss me if I'm gone.

Kinda sad, really.

ericabiz• 10 years ago

I would miss you! I like your Facebook updates and silly jokes and pictures of your family. I always read your stuff there. I know we don't get to see each other in person much, but know that there are people out there who care!

DanielBMarkham3• 10 years ago

Ha! Thank you!

Didn't mean that to sound so gloomy, just wanted to point out that reading text from a person is also a form of isolation for both people.

There are a lot of people that I've interacted with over the years that I haven't heard from in a long time. Our only contact was email or texting. Their text number stopped working a long time ago, and emailing them results in no response at all.

This is not a situation where folks are angry at each other, just slowly drifting apart.

Are they alive or dead? Beats me.

Morgawr• 10 years ago

As somebody who's had a dear internet friend die, let me tell you that yes, we'd miss you if you're gone!

I was (and still am) part of a tight community of people on IRC and one day we realized a guy in our group hadn't said anything for almost a month. He'd always been the quiet type of person who sometimes would go for a few days or even a week without saying anything, but it was really weird for us. These are all people I've been interacting with for years every day, we do know a lot about each other (although to varying degrees). We knew about this guy's name and some circumstantial social network presence, so we started to investigate and we eventually found out he had passed.

We all mourned him, and to this day still I regret the fact that it took us a month to realize he wasn't with us anymore (we initially thought he had gone on vacation, since it was summer).

In a few months it's going to be the 2nd anniversary of his death and we plan to write up something within our community to remember him, just like last year.

DanielBMarkham3• 10 years ago

Yes. Exactly this.

If you're communicating with somebody on a regular basis in person, and they die? You mourn, you send flowers. Hell, you might even go to the funeral home, even if it was in another town.

If it's online? You can go weeks or months and be clueless. And then when you do find out, you feel like you were robbed of something. Something important.

christudor• 10 years ago

For those that are interested in this kind of thing, there was a fantastic radio programme on BBC Radio 4 just the other day on depression in Japan: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07cv0y4

geodel• 10 years ago

Though I am not as disconnected to modern economic realities but as I approach 40s the thought of nature and purpose of my work worries me. I also do not have much social connections outside work and increasingly at work too. I guess in next 10 years I may find myself in similar predicament.

sickbeard• 10 years ago

Not surprising since our society is changing the way we interact. It used to be you went to church or married, without a replacement for those (online gaming doesn't count) you end up alone and invisible to those in your immediate vicinity.

brightball3• 10 years ago

A big part of this that's unpopular to discuss in current culture is people actively avoiding going to a church. Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor in whether or not you can show up every week, meet other people in your community, participate in events, be there for each other at during the hard times in life, have fun activities for your kids where you can meet other parents and get involved in the community with those same people. At least in the southeast US where I'm from, churches have filled this multifaceted role of connecting people for years. All ages from newborns to elderly. I don't know of another community structure that even comes close to pulling that off.

twoquestions2• 10 years ago

The problem with church is that it demands submission in exchange for community. Not only believe this way, but dress this way, eat this way, vote this way, and if you're in any way different you're as cut off as you would be if you stayed home, and if you're having hard times you must have done something to deserve it.

I'm from Ohio so it may be different up here, but that's my experience.

brightball3• 10 years ago

Churches tend to be all shapes and sizes. The traditional ones are usually closer to what you're describing but there are many that are more low key to avoid exactly what you are describing.

zellyn6• 10 years ago

"demands submission in exchange for community" - that's a fantastic way of phrasing it. I'll be using that in the future :-)

klagermkii• 10 years ago

I don't think that that is a trait derived or unique to Christianity. I think that happens in all groups be they religious or secular, where people find that they can make a majority of the group happy by instituting common standards of behaviour. It can start with something like a Code of Conduct with good rules like "clothes mandatory", but people don't know when to stop, and 2000 years later you end up with modern church rules.

jlj2• 10 years ago

"The problem with church..."

There are a wide spectrum of beliefs and interpretations across denominations, far beyond Orthodox , liberal, etc. And the quality of the delivery is still up to the people at the pulpit. A bad experience at one church or denomination should not be a generalization of all churches/religions.

If you feel that something is being imposed on you, that particular church may not be the best fit for you. Or you may be hearing something that is at conflict with the ego, or with an area of personal struggle.

Also YMMV depending on if you view church is a consumer good/service, versus a lifelong shared experience of learning and of putting others before self.

dragonwriter3• 10 years ago

The degree to which that is true varies not just regionally but by individual church (not just denomination/tradition/sect, but individual parish/congregation.)

ricksplat• 10 years ago

Sadly many have become disillusioned with the church and conflate the "Community" grass roots social aspect with the "Institutional" aspect. It is this latter aspect that has let so many down over the years. I'm not going to get into the whys and wherefores but in a great many social settings people feel betrayed by organisations - erstwhile held in the greatest of esteem and thus - trusted with some of the most sensitive activities of society. It's difficult as an enlightened individual to be lectured to about spirituality by somebody who is standing on a shaky moral platform themselves. Then there's the wilful ignorance of evident truths because they conflict with some (likely well meaning) prescription written by somebody in a far away place and a long time ago ...

coldpie• 10 years ago

I've thought about this a lot, and I agree with you. I'm a pretty devout Atheist (is that the right term?), but I do recognize the social role that churches play and I wish there was some similar secular organization that could fill that role. Or course there are hobby and special interest groups, but I can't think of just a general gathering where everyone is a regular and friendly like my church was growing up.

meric3• 10 years ago

Religion consists of a set of superstitious beliefs and a set of philosophical beliefs. When setting aside the superstitious part be careful not to lose sight of the philosophical part that makes sense. I think the reason a church provides social cohesion and belonging is because it is literally a group of people trying to become the best human beings they can be, a process that involves feeling their own and being aware of other's emotions every day, and that is a beautiful thing. I suggest finding a philosophy that involves looking into yourself and follow it with a group of people. Personally I am fond of fundamental Taoism. It involves worshipping no deity, but rather to be aware of the inter-connectedness of the universe.

'I point at the stars and the sky ripples.'

I would disrespect people who feel lonely by calling myself lonely - I have a handful of very close friends and am in a relationship. I don't find it easy to connect to other people in meaningful way. What needs to happen is both persons being in a spontaneous state, and that's a rare thing to find because at least one person always has somewhere to go or something to do, or is scared of something or is too attached to something, preventing the two people from enjoying the present moment.

One more word about 'science and atheism': I'm put on notice every time someone mentions those two as axioms to follow. Atheism means to me disregarding spirituality at all costs, and considering only scientific facts means invalidating personal experiences of themselves and people around them.

'A; Today I went X and saw Y and felt Z'

'B; it is scientifically proven when you X you feel Z but it doesn't mean you Z1'

The reliance on facts puts the emotional part of the conversation aside in favour of logic and rationality and reduces the potential of building a connection.

But hey, I'm not an expert at building relationships in the first place, these are just my thoughts and personal experiences, compare them with your own and build your own framework.

dragonwriter3• 10 years ago

I'm a pretty devout Atheist (is that the right term?), but I do recognize the social role that churches play and I wish there was some similar secular organization that could fill that role.

A number of atheists have felt that, and some have even established groups modeled on the social aspects of churches without the particular theistic views (e.g., Sunday Assembly.)

Sir_Cmpwn3• 10 years ago

Churches are definitely a great community resource, but I imagine that many people (myself included) don't want to be preached something we don't believe in every week even if it means losing out on those community benefits. I wonder if something else could be established, or even if such a thing as "athiest/agnostic churches" could be organized.

zellyn6• 10 years ago

http://www.firstexistentialist.org/

panglott• 10 years ago

Atheists go to the Unitarian churches.

huxley• 10 years ago

You'll find that in some communities, the Universalist Unitarians or liberal/universalist/nontheist Quaker meetings might fit the need.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers

I've known several atheists/agnostics that go to both locally and the few times I've gone to either the meetings tend to be quite low in dogma. Not my thing, but if you crave that sort of community might be worth taking a look.

cableshaft3• 10 years ago

Or just a community space with rooms that people can set things up in. Libraries kind of fill that role today, but you have to reserve the rooms sometimes a year in advance. I mean more a place where you go, say 'this empty room is going to be used to play games for the next two hours' or 'we're going to set up some punch and cookies here for people to socialize for an hour' or whatever, and you're good. Maybe be able to set things up on a weekly basis or something, so you can have a regular, predictable event people can attend.

I know there's plenty of meetup groups, for example, that have a hard time finding spaces that can host 40 or more people at a time, that doesn't cost like $50 to reserve ahead of time or have to be reserved almost a year in advance. I've been wanting to do a meet and greet for my group for months and haven't been able to find a good space for it.

Spoom• 10 years ago

This is essentially me. My wife and her family are religious and go to church every Sunday, but when I tried going with her earlier in our relationship, I felt like a fraud (as I'm an agnostic). I liked that they did good things for the world. I liked that they helped their community. But I couldn't stand up and sing about Jesus when I really didn't feel the same faith that the other members ostensibly felt.

I've heard good things about Unitarian Universalist churches.

humanrebar10• 10 years ago

Churches are definitely a great community resource, but I imagine that many people (myself included) don't want to be preached something we don't believe in every week even if it means losing out on those community benefits.

Participating in a healthy church is way too much work if all you get out of it is the community benefits. Healthy churches:

* feed and clothe people

* take care of the abandoned people in society (foster kids, shut-ins, people with personality disorders, the homeless, people with immigration problems, addicts)

* talk people into apologizing to each other (yeah, like your mom and her sister after all these years)

* educate themselves about local issues (homelessness, drug use, poverty, etc.) with a mind towards helping somehow

* mentor and provide structure for prisoners and ex-prisoners

* are involved in global relief... they've been doing charity-water-style projects for millenia

* do all the normal boring stuff involved in maintaining and funding an organization with facilities

* do intense critical analysis (including studying dead languages) of the Bible and related resources

* provide educational opportunities to underpivileged children

* put on an 90-120 minute A/V production once a week

* provide huge amounts of child care services, including background checks, training, instilling best practices to ensure safety of children, etc.

* provide therapy for people that need it (techniques here vary a lot but every church does it somehow)

* provide mentoring and care for people entering new life stages (newlyweds, new couples, divorcees, recently widowed, etc.)

That is to say it only makes sense to explore if you are interested in God. If you aren't, consider looking for something else and good luck on your journey.

Yes, there are people (many of them) who just show up sometimes for the A/V portion of the weekend, but that's pretty much missing the point. Unsurprisingly, they tend to have a rougher time 'getting' the whole church thing.

zellyn6• 10 years ago

It's so difficult to find a church that (a) values community, and (b) hasn't made some kind of big, public decision against LGBTQ people. And that doesn't preach guilt and condemnation in a thousand overt or subtle ways…

brightball3• 10 years ago

Episcopal

mousa• 10 years ago

I live in the south and even here a ton of the churches are ok with LGBTQ and don't harp on guilt or how we all need to be saved. Unitarians, Episcopalean, Presbyterian (USA), Quakers, etc. It's still hard to sit through a service where you don't believe anything.

humanrebar10• 10 years ago

It's so difficult to find a church that (a) values community, and (b) hasn't made some kind of big, public decision against LGBTQ people.

What's a 'big, public decision'? The Bible is very clear that there is such a thing as sexual immorality and that same-sex relationships qualify. I've heard arguments that a long series of translation errors means that certain kinds of same-sex relationships are fine, but even so, the Bible does say there is such a thing as sexual immorality. I haven't seen a church that is fine with homosexual acts that also has a coherent position on those passages of scripture.

The only coherent position that's possible is that the Bible is just a good book with a lot of good ideas, but I'm not sure how to organize a community around that principle.

Let's say I put my foot in my mouth and hurt someone's feelings and need to apologize. There is a Bible verse in which Jesus said that we need to prioritize reconciliation over religious habits. If I thought the Bible was just a pretty good list of suggestions, I could easily ignore that teaching because <insert reasonable excuse here>.

That is to say, I don't really how to remove scriptural authority and still have a clear understanding of who God is and what that means to us.

euroclydon2• 10 years ago

Not sharing orthodox beliefs may not be an impediment to joining and participating, as you say, but it will be a dividing factor over time, unless you 1) fake it, or 2) go to a liberal church. The problem with liberal churches is they're small and don't grow.

People are attracted to confidence, so when the preacher, members and staff continuously and confidently proclaim their certainty in that which is difficult to believe, attendance and membership swell. People with marginal faith would fit in better at a liberal church, but mostly they're turned off by it.

VLM4• 10 years ago

"The problem with liberal churches is they're small and don't grow."

Hmm I've actually been to Catholic Mass where the congregation is exclusively white haired and the local prosperity gospel rock music church where the average congregation age must have only been 25. You can guess the long term demographic result.

I'll throw out a dissenting opinion to the majority view that only non-mainline churches are possible. I met a very cool Catholic priest who had a long entertaining presentation along the lines of if you can't stand one guy on TV or can't stand one guy at your local Catholic church, that's OK because there's a billion of them and if you can't find one part per billion that offends you, you're not paying enough attention, and if you can't avoid that one part per billion, you're just complaining for fun and are not trying hard enough.

rebeccaskinner• 10 years ago

I think in a lot of places churches have served as a defactor "third place" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place) for communities. It seems like the decline in church attendance mirrors the decline in a lot of third place spaces. None of my grandparents ever attended church with any regularity, but I know that they were all involved in various social and community activities with the types of clubs that don't seem to exist anymore. Friends of mine with kids have parenting meetups, and I try to make technical meetups when I can, but the rotating group of people and the fact that they can be difficult to get to make them quasi-substitutes at best.

iSnow2• 10 years ago

In a lot of countries - Germany, Britain, France to be sure - the pub is such a third place, especially for men. Their special culture seems to be in decline as well, but not as dramatically as churches.

bargl6• 10 years ago

As an Ex-Christian, I miss the "third place" but I do not miss the church. I don't know where to get that same idea for my kids but I also don't want them growing up with a belief in the doctrine I grew up with. I also have strong feelings about what religions my child is exposed to. I don't mind him being exposed to multiple religions, but there are certain religions I would consider secondary and don't want to be his primary exposure.

I'm fairly alone in this, and I say Ex-Christian to indicate I'm not Atheist but I don't know if that's true. Anyway, this is something I've been struggling with a lot. I just spent 3 hours last night talking to a Power salesman, because we had a good time chatting and I don't get that outside my friends and work. There is no forced place for me to talk to acquaintences.

Honestly, if I didn't disagree so strongly with the theology of the LDS (Mormon) church I'd go back to that. They are FANTASTIC for kids, parents, events, etc. They instill great morals (other than homophobia and some other things I disagree with). But they are in general very nice people.

So where do I go for a "third place" without God being involved, but I still get the, "hey man we missed you last week, where were you." and "Have you given your money to God lately?"

Sorry this struck a nerve, and I'm almost ready to go back to the LDS church just so Sam has people he knows but to try to counter the Theology by exposing him to other beliefs as well. IDK.

xemdetia• 10 years ago

I feel the biggest hole in technical/small social groups vs. church groups is the lack of permanency. With most church organizations there is a built in way to bring fresh people in to associate with the church, and a dedicated place to meet that you can expect to be there with modest assumptions 10 years from now. A technical group is generally completely nomadic, they have to do a lot of work to bring people together. The glue that keeps them together is flimsy as well- a tech group is less likely to keep someone who makes a drastic change in occupation (IT to a brewer) compared to a church.

The major lack of easy association to the group is something that is hard to replicate in the nonsecular space. There is nothing strongly compelling about a group that's focus is too general, and the difficulty to bridge the gap from outsider to inclusion can be too high for a group that is interesting.

kerkeslager• 10 years ago

I'd love to see a public discussion on this. Intuitively, I think you could be right that church participation brings about happiness and reduces alienation, but it's hard to discuss in a complete void of data. I admit I didn't look very hard, but a quick search only yielded a Pew Research study which showed that weekly church attendance was correlated with happiness, but being in good health had a much stronger correlation.

There are a bunch of related issues I'd like to discuss:

1. Church attendance isn't available to everyone. Specifically, LGBTQ folks are often excluded. In a broader sense, does church attendance still make you happy and reduce alienation if you don't agree with the church's dogma? You claim that "Whether you actually donate and believe everything that is said isn't really a factor" but in my personal experience that was a very large factor.

2. Why do people believe that this is unpopular to discuss? You're not the first person I've heard claim this.

3. Instead of comparing church-attendance to non-church-attendance, is there data which compares church attendance to attendance of other social groups (clubs, activity groups, etc.) which meet weekly?

4. Have there been any attempts to replicate the benefits of church with secular community organizations; i.e. a group that meets weekly and someone gives a talk about some topic (science!)?

794CD012• 10 years ago

Church attendance is available to everyone. For thousands of years, the answer to your dilemma has been obvious. If you are excluded from an existing church, just make a new one. When black people could not attend white churches, do you think they just gave up and decided to be secular?

humanrebar10• 10 years ago

Church attendance isn't available to everyone. Specifically, LGBTQ folks are often excluded.

I have been to a lot of churches and I've never seen this happen.

Why do people believe that this is unpopular to discuss?

The Bible offends people. And it's very strange to discuss church participation without discussing God and the Bible.

For example, I believe creating a godless (or even God agnostic) church will be ultimately a dead end (at least in the long term). I'd be interested to read any research about these things, but I'm skeptical that it's even possible to study these things scientifically. Church dynamics play out over generations. You really need to watch organizations over many changes of leadership to see if they're really successful.

I realize that some people reading this reach for an empirical, practical approach to discovering whether it's possible to recreate the benefits of church without the theism. I'd be interested to hear what happens, but I suspect we'll all be dead before all the implications of the experiment are known. I'm not sure waiting around for a series of definitive studies is a good plan.

s_kilk2• 10 years ago

Related to your first bullet-point, but there are also those who can't/won't attend because they refuse to be associated with the goings-on of the larger Church institution.

For one example, as recently as 1996, the Catholic Church ran slave-labour camps in Ireland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_Laundries_in_Ireland

When these camps were eventually shut down, some within the Church defended them, claiming they had done nothing wrong but had instead provided a service by enslaving these women. Not something many sane people want to be associated with.

xioxox• 10 years ago

Church attendance is much higher in the US compared to other western countries (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance). Looking at the article, the death rate is decreasing in these countries, while it's not for the US whites.

coldtea• 10 years ago

Yeah, but other countries might offer other social opportunities too, where the average american city, and especially the suburbs don't.

cmrdporcupine3• 10 years ago

Maybe churches wouldn't be in decline if churches were actually just social clubs that didn't require their members to all think the same way and believe that the people who don't think that way are doomed to eternal fire?

I grew up with a very tight church community. I simultaneously miss it and have claustrophobic nausea every time I think about it.

pumblechook• 10 years ago

As someone who's lived in the southeast US my entire life, this is spot on. The Bible Belt gets a lot of flack, most of it deserved, but it is hard to overstate the importance of the church community here. I suspect this, not the religious part, is why churches have continued to thrive here.

The problem for me (as well as many others I know), is that the tradeoff isn't worth it. There is an entire generation of people who are receptive to religion and the church community, but who are completely at odds with the traditional interpretations of religion that preach intolerance and other backward moral positions. The so-called 'contemporary' churches that have been sprouting like weeds have addressed this somewhat, but scant few are actually progressive thinkers, rather than just traditional churches that play religious rock music. I would love to be a part of a church community, but not if it means I'm constantly inundated with a message that runs counter to everything I believe in.

soundwave106• 10 years ago

And this is in my opinion why "nones" / "unchurched" is the fastest growing church in America: http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise/

The question is whether the decline of the church in America is a symptom of other things besides the issues mentioned in the article and elsewhere (eg: churches being too connected to money and power, too focused on rules, too intolerant, too judgemental). Most unchurched still believe, so if it's just those things, then America is merely ripe for a disruptive church that would correct the current modern America church sins.

However, from what I've seen with more liberal churches that exist, the crowd is elderly and small. So I think that there's been a bit of a greater societal shift. "Make an atheist church" is not a solution, because that style just does not work for a more connected, global, diverse world where individualism is more valued. Look at this thread; many people in this thread are rejecting church because the pressure to "conform to the norm" is not worth the community gain.

Is it possible to gain the benefits of community, without sacrificing the benefits individualism? (I personally think the sins of the collective tend to be worse than the sins of the individualism, so I personally would not want to see that balance shifted to the sort of conformity many churches seem to demand.)

jlj2• 10 years ago

Japan and the US are also known for workaholism. Idolizing work and career for one's entire adult life can leave someone feeling very lonely upon retirement. Or while still in the workforce for that matter.

A good book called "Counterfeit Gods" by Timothy Keller explores this and other topics from a Christian perspective.

His argument is that work and many other things in life are inherently good and part of our purpose as humans, but not when they consume us. Idolotry is what happens when a "good" thing becomes the "ultimate" and it corrupts who we are at the core.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/wp/2014/...

forkandwait• 10 years ago

The problem, as others have said, is the accompanying theology i.e. Magical bullshut.

I believe, however, we would do well as a civilization to study what The Church (capital letters on purpose) has done well in the last 2000 years, strip it of magic and veiled class dynamics, and rebuild it for the social good.

I work as a data analyst for a large social service government agency, and I always joke that we should hire the LDS (Mormon) church to run our social welfare programs. Well, sans God and some nasty sexism and LGBT hatefulness.

yuzi• 10 years ago

People who "actively" avoid churches often do so for reasons other than their personal life challenges.

Also, you're painting a picture as though you can come for the other benefits and not have to deal with their primary purpose of existence; kinda like a time-share salesman who offers $500 and a free lunch provided you listen to the 3 hour brainwashing session. It's a disingenuous statement. I know this from being sold the same free lunch - many times :)

known• 10 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori is a social/cultural/psychological phenomenon

further_tech8• 10 years ago

Your argument is dominated by pragmatism, which often obfuscates what religion is all about.

Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people. You could gather just as many atheists and the response wouldn't be the same.

EDIT: I'm not saying an atheist community would be WORSE than Christianity.

I'm saying it would be DIFFERENT from the Christian one.

Sir_Cmpwn3• 10 years ago

Great communities are a consequence of the chosen lifestyle and morality of religious people

You don't give athiests and agnostics enough credit. Religion is not required for morals and community values.

further_tech8• 10 years ago

At its core, Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness, etc.

Maybe some atheists also have these, but there's not a guarantee all act this way.

IMO, before founding an "atheist church", I'd at least establish "secular values" and find a community around it.

EDIT: I was called a "delusional idiot" for claiming Christians are defined by fraternity, equality, goodness.

I'm referring to the SYSTEM OF VALUES. Something must be aspired for and desired in social interactions. I'm well aware of "hypocritical Christians", it has nothing to do with them.

If you cannot understand that, I'm not a "delusional idiot"; you are just ignorant.

humanrebar10• 10 years ago

Religion is not required for morals and community values.

See, I agree, but probably because I understand "religion" differently than you do.

I would say, though, that love of God is required for morals and healthy community (not sure what 'community values' are). There are a lot of difficult things in this life (addiction, betrayal, chronic illness, corruption, oppression) that are difficult to tackle with bald reason, raw force of will, and whatever teamwork we can scrape together.

return0• 10 years ago

You are spot on about this , although i can see how your comment may be misinterpreted. The church is a pleasant place because people share similar morals. Atheists may have great morals, but there is little overlap. That is true for any secular group really. Setting up an adversarial type of gathering , from sports to politics will not be the same experience as the one that a church offers.

humanrebar10• 10 years ago

I'm not saying an atheist community would be WORSE than Christianity.

I would, at least in the long run. There wouldn't be much point to being a Christian otherwise.

NOTE: That's not to say that a given "Christian" is a "better person" than a given atheist. People, including "Christians" that think that don't really understand Christian philosophy.

dang3• 10 years ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11813876 and marked it off-topic.

further_tech8• 10 years ago

Startups cannot do a thing.

Startups cannot change the fact people abandon their elderly parents. They'll just make it worse.

Startups cannot make people less egotistical or make them think about the other. They'll just make it worse.

Startups cannot take the existential anxiety and anger from you. They'll just make it worse.

baron8166• 10 years ago

Why not?

further_tech8• 10 years ago

Well... that's an extremely arrogant question.

Can a startup change the core of human nature? Can it change thousands of years of Philosophy? Can it change our socio-economic background? Can it change history?

If you can, then... dear Lord... this is Apotheosis.

BEEdwards• 10 years ago

WTF are you on?

In no way do I think startups are a panacea for the ailments of society, but you do realize that they are made up of people?

People can do all the things that you list and more.

further_tech8• 10 years ago

Maybe people can FUNDAMENTALLY change that with multiple collective actions, throughout hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years.

Overfunded startups cannot change that.

Overfunded startups can only provide another pill to ignore the problem (making it even worse).

dang3• 10 years ago

WTF are you on?

Comments like this break the HN guidelines. Please post civilly and substantively, or not at all.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

Bartweiss10• 10 years ago

The obvious answer is to call this presumptuous, to say that startups are just things made by groups of people and so they can help if people can.

But on a deeper, intuitive level things rings completely true. It's not something I can prove, it's something that can be proved, but I can't shake the feeling that this carries weight.

This is a world where Facebook use averages 50 minutes per day, and we're going to solve the problem with startups? Really? I tried a popular, profitable app that "gamifies" good habits recently, and almost immediately realized that it was just going to make me take another slice of my day to update an app about the stuff I've already done. Great.

At best, startups can grease the wheels. My 'favorite' apps, the ones that improve my life, are the ones that quietly make easier something I was going to do anyway. They help clear out mental clutter and offer simple reminders, making room for the human things that have to emerge from me rather than a product. So yes, better software and better companies can help, but mostly by getting out of the way; by smoothing over the humanity-eroding problems of other systems and products. This is a wicked problem, one that's entrapping whole societies, and change will have to come from equally large alterations.

dang3• 10 years ago

Your many comments in this thread have had a trollish effect whether you meant to or not. Please don't do that here.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11813571 and marked it off-topic.

sbardle2• 10 years ago

There was a recent study into the male suicide rate in Northern Ireland. It has boomed since the end of the Troubles. Historically, war has given men a sense of belonging. But it's not a great trade-off. The church can in theory be a good place to build social cohesion, but in the UK it is mired in cultural politics, so many people choose to avoid it.

Bartweiss10• 10 years ago

The premature death rate (drugs, alcohol, suicide) among white, midwestern women in the US is really interesting to me.

There are a lot of pretty convincing theories about male death rates and how they're tied to conflict, demonstrations of courage, and clear purpose. I'd never heard the Ireland result, but it doesn't shock me. Obviously some of this is gender-agnostic, like sense of community, but some of it doesn't seem to be; there's a reason that young, unemployed men are the largest risk factor for social instability.

Given all that, it's intriguing to see that what's going wrong in the American heartland is affecting women at least as strongly as men. A lot of the easy answers (unemployment, worsened employment, lack of education) are all things that have mostly changed to the detriment of men (they might be better or worse for women, but we care about recent change and that would imply declining results for men). So that drives me into suspicions that this isn't something we can handwave with "construction took a downturn" or "bad warehouse jobs" - there seems to be a broader anomie transcending those simple problems.

TheLilHipster• 10 years ago

I've been working corporate IT for 4 years now.

I'm quite attractive and analytically intelligent, but lack social and emotional intelligence (always been a loner due to childhood circumstances).

I feel alienated, I can't relate to others in this rat race. The constant dick waving and competition driven by social media, it's just such a turnoff.

Without motivation or passion for games like I used to, life feels empty. Suicide is my wholehearted plan when this company goes under, it just seems like the reasonable, logical end.

This rant is more of an anecdotal story, take from it what you will - in short, I can relate to this article.

temp11813367• 10 years ago

All people have value. You have more value than your job, no matter how annoying your colleagues may be sometimes.

If you are considering self-harm or suicide as an option for you, please reach out for advice or help. Many people have been through similar situations and found the advice of others helpful.[1]

I find that there is little wisdom in the world I like to quote, but here is some:

"And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."[2]

[1]1-800-273-8255

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderata

alva• 10 years ago

Firstly, echoing the other response

If you are considering self-harm or suicide as an option for you, please reach out for advice or help. Many people have been through similar situations and found the advice of others helpful.[1]

Otherwise, I sympathise with your thoughts. One thing that has been helpful for me is realising that throughout time, a small percentage of people have felt this way about their society. It should be considered an expected part of any society, it just happens you are in this group.

I feel like if everything gets a bit too much, I will retreat into the countryside and set up a homestead. Nature does wonders for the soul and connects you to the longer thread of life and human experience, above the noise of day-to-day life and perceived trivialities. Please consider the alternatives, even if they are drastic such as above, before suicide. There will be something, a way of life, that resonates with your soul and makes you feel life worth living again, even if it is at odds with what society and family expect of you. I wish the best for you.

sliverstorm• 10 years ago

There are people you can relate to. You just haven't found them yet.

Working IT, especially for a small IT department, can be isolating. You can find yourself at a company where there's no-one else like you. But that's not because there's no-one else like you in the world; it's because you work IT at a sales firm.

theandrewbailey• 10 years ago

Wow. That sounds similar to how I was, but without the suicide.

I moved into a new neighborhood a few months ago (something I've wanted to do for over 2 years). When the weather started getting nice, I bought a bike and started using it. A lot. I eventually started commuting without a car. I'm not sure if it's the exercise or simply being in sunlight more, but I'm feeling better than I have in 10 years, and I'm much happier. It seems that other feelings are up too, since I'm starting to talk to someone I've had a crush on for years.

Mix things up in your life. Change things. I agree with your thoughts on social media. The way people use it is evil: you only see the good things, but not the everyday boredom and tragedy.

Raphmedia• 10 years ago

but lack social and emotional intelligence

Read books on the subject! I am the same as you. Very logical but not emotional at all and I struggle with empathy.

I recently started reading some of Daniel Goleman's books and learning about emotions in a logical way opened my mind to new ways to think.

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