North Korea Sentences U.S. Student to 15 Years Hard Labor

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-16/north-korea-sentences-u-s-student-to-15-years-xinhua-says

by huac • 10 years ago

75 75 10 years ago

btian• 10 years ago

I hope Obama shows some strength here and not let Donald Trump take the spotlight.

jessaustin2• 10 years ago

Wait, what? Why would any politician give this dude a second thought? They certainly don't mind incarcerating dudes who steal from the government here, why would they care about NKBK incarcerating dudes who steal from the government there? The fact that of the two politicians you mention, I can't predict which will do the stupid saber-rattling thing, seems to illustrate Trump's point, if I may be forgiven for steelmanning such into existence. (I voted for Bernie today, but I see why others vote for Trump.)

wpietri• 10 years ago

Because we do what we can to assist our citizens overseas. As far as I know, all countries do:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consular_assistance

This guy is a total fuck-up, no doubt. Many Americans are, though, and I don't think that merits 15 years at hard labor. Especially since part of the reason the North Koreans are doing this is likely because of international politics.

eruditely2• 10 years ago

How is this guy stealing from the government? He took town a propaganda poster right?

meddlepal• 10 years ago

So am I supposed to feel bad for Otto? We all know NK is a disaster of human rights, but hey fuck it, this kids thinks he's gonna prove a point by taking down a propaganda poster? This is lazy activism. Congrats, you prover your point. Meanwhile, we now need to spend real diplomatic points figuring out how to get you free'd all while you rot in some NK hell hole. By the way, nobody, or at least almost nobody will ever remember what you did.

covercash• 10 years ago

The article suggests he took the poster down with the intention of selling it outside of the country.

thedz• 10 years ago

You are supposed to feel bad, because even if what he allegedly did is stupid, the sentencing is not in any way proportionate to the action.

And that's assuming he really did what North Korea says he did. It's not the first time they've made up charges, or trumped up benign accidents into intentionally malicious acts coordinated by the US Gov.

nv-vn• 10 years ago

Someone who was allegedly there when the kid did it commented on a thread yesterday. I doubt the NK government would be posting propaganda on HackerNews of all places, but hey, you never know.

jonah2• 10 years ago

There's mention of the arrest from an HN member who saw it first-hand in the thread from yesterday on photos from DPRK:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11287535

threatofrain• 10 years ago

On a completely tangential note, I wanted to say that in a system where we expect to probabilistically catch people, a $1000 penalty for a $1000 crime cannot rationally deter people in cases where the crime is "worth" something. You have to charge people a disproportionate penalty to discourage people.

On the other hand, a society with omnipresent cameras that catches people almost 100% of the time can penalize proportionally.

comex• 10 years ago

If he actually took down a poster; the description comes from the NK news agency. It seems more likely that he did something than that NK just decided to detain some random tourist, but there may be details missing.

qrendel• 10 years ago

Why isn't it as likely that they want a hostage to use as leverage? Accusing him of doing something insanely idiotic would give plausible deniability of the actual purpose.

ArcticCelt• 10 years ago

this kids thinks he's gonna prove a point by taking down a propaganda poster?

I think its even worst.

"took down a propaganda sign in Pyongyang so he could exchange it for money outside the country"

According to the article he did to sell it on ebay.

millstone• 10 years ago

That's the motive ascribed to him by the DPRK, a confession they extracted while he was detained. They routinely extract false confessions of "plots to overthrow the state" and the like. So this confession is worthless.

We probably can't know what he actually did, or why he did it. The incident could even be made from whole cloth.

pcurve• 10 years ago

I've always found it interesting how US citizens can travel to NK, but not Cuba. I do realize things are changing with travel to Cuba but there are still restrictions

donatj2• 10 years ago

You can go to Cuba actually, I know a couple people who've been on missions with their church.

dalke3• 10 years ago

"can travel to NK" should be read as "can travel to NK without special permission from the US government."

You didn't need permission from the US per se to go to Cuba. You needed permission to contribute to the Cuban economy. If you were in a boat, entered Cuban waters, sailed around Havana harbor, and left without paying any sort of fees, then I don't think there was need for permission.

It's possible to get a travel exemption that allows per diem expenditures. The details depend on the type of exemption. See http://www.usacubatravel.com/restriction.htm . One of them is "Specific licenses for religious organizations", which is almost certainly what that church applied for in order for its members to travel to Cuba.

These restrictions are changing this week, I believe. I don't know the latest status.

pg_bot• 10 years ago

Fun fact, US citizens can now visit both countries.

nerfhammer• 10 years ago

They relaxed more of the restrictions on travel to Cuba just today: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/16/us/politics/white-house-cu...

seanmcdirmid2• 10 years ago

We used to not be able to go to NK, but the restriction was from the NK side rather than the USA side. That changed around....2012 I think.

United857• 10 years ago

I went as an American in October 2005 (before that, yeah -- Americans had not been allowed.)

donatj2• 10 years ago

I bet he feels dumb. That sucks, but still REALLY? Why did he possibly think that was a good idea?

roasm• 10 years ago

I find it interesting the article uses "exchange for money" instead of "sell". It's as if the author is bending over backwards to make us more sympathetic to the student.

jonah2• 10 years ago

His Wikipedia page uses similar language with more detail:

"On February 29, 2016 he confessed to stealing a piece of North Korean propaganda from his hotel's staff-only section to take back to the United States as a "trophy" for someone willing to recompense him with a $10,000 reward."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Frederick_Warmbier

gesman2• 10 years ago

This stupidity is equal to bringing drugs to Singapore or trying to collar a bear cub in front of bear mom in the middle of wilderness.

You could have fun or lose your life. Make a call.

If adult cannot make a judgement call simple enough he becomes a learning statistics for others.

On the other side i think NK will keep him in reasonable conditions to leverage the situation eventually returning him back.

peteretep• 10 years ago

Millions of young adults do stupider things every day, and relatively few end in tragedy.

robbrown451• 10 years ago

Sure, the world isn't fair. Lots of people drive drunk and nothing bad happens.

Still, the US shouldn't allow NK to have extra leverage because of this.

akamaka2• 10 years ago

It's not comparable at all. Posters on the street are seen as being disposable in most parts of the world, and it's hard to imagine being arrested for, say, pulling down an Obama campaign poster and taking it home. Drug trafficking and hunting large predators are pretty much illegal everywhere, on the other hand.

chimeracoder• 10 years ago

it's hard to imagine being arrested for, say, pulling down an Obama campaign poster and taking it home

It's actually funny you mention campaign posters specifically - because yes, you can get in very serious legal trouble for taking down campaign signs in certain states.

Source: I know people who took down opposing campaign signs for the opposing candidate. Fun times were not had, except perhaps by the lawyers.

shubhamjain• 10 years ago

Except that "North Korea" isn't "most part of the world". Even a basic five-minute readout on any travel wiki would tell you that. This is a country that will send your whole family to slave labour if you remotely suggest something that might be regarded as against their supreme leader.

beedogs• 10 years ago

Pretty crazy to see people here justifying this ridiculous sentence for something that may not have even been done on purpose. What is wrong with some of you?

executesorder66• 10 years ago

So he accidentally took down the poster? How does that happen?

viraptor• 10 years ago

We're not going to really know what happened there until he's out. But the question did remind me of an old Polish movie ending in a scene where a guy tries to fix a broken flag and the police stops him for breaking it. (https://youtu.be/34OcRxapLY0?t=10m10s "citizen, are you taking down national flag? papers please") NK publishes a lot of lies. Let's not rely on them for judging people.

mrschwabe• 10 years ago

HN is a public forum and this isn't 1999 anymore - don't assume every comment is posted by people acting on their own personal volition.

andrethegiant• 10 years ago

Seriously. It feels like some of the commenters here are from the DPRK itself. Do you really trust what the North Koreans are saying? He could've just been a kid who wanted a souvenir and now he's going to an internment camp for 15 years. Poor guy :-(

jaequery• 10 years ago

Man, the comments here are harsh! Let's atleast show some sympathy for support of his parents and his family. I'm sure the word devastation won't even describe the pain and fear that they may be going through. My hearts and prayers goes out to his family, really wish him a quick and safe return.

cbd1984• 10 years ago

Right. It's possible to feel bad for someone murdered by a criminal even if they left their door open all night.

What North Korea is going to do to this kid is going to be inhuman and totally disproportionate to what he did, which was, at worst, fairly stupid.

jmspring• 10 years ago

There can be sympathy for the loved ones, that said, the discussion does remind me of similar discussions regarding of the teenager arrested for theft and vandalism in Singapore in the 90s [1]. Outrage over him being caned.

I'm sorry, but travelers to a foreign country need to be at least cognizant of local customs (read the section in a travel book before going), and if they break the rules, expect to face consequences.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay

jorgecurio• 10 years ago

We could really use caning to discipline juvenile offenders. Nothing like a good ass whooping to teach kids right from wrong. Unfortunately, grounding kids only work for those within the safety nets of middle class. It is not enough nor is it realistic to threaten to take away a child's things when there's nothing to take away because of poverty.

gesman2• 10 years ago

I think the logic might be slightly on the guy's side.

My take is NK will make sure he kept in a good conditions, possibly exposed to some made-up farmers views playing "hard labor prisoners" to make sure he will eventually report that no atrocities are taking place and with eventual return already planned for him on a horizon.

Not to say that actual NK citizen's lifetime for equal "offense" will likely be drastically shorter.

Letting US citizen to die in NK is not going to have a healthy consequences for "the leader" and he realizes this pretty well.

l33tbro2• 10 years ago

I mostly agree, but can't see much evidence of Kim Jong-un being kept on a short leash by the West. Pyongyang launches 40-meter, 8000 km Taepodong missiles for funsies with very little international reprimand. I just hope this matter is dealt careful diplomacy by the US.

KennyCason• 10 years ago

Indeed. Regardless of him doing something stupid. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Slippery_John• 10 years ago

Seriously, it's like some of the commenters are completely devoid of empathy.

mc32• 10 years ago

There is the possibility the excessive sentence is to make him into in to a negotiation pawn. NK now has one more pawn to play whenever something comes up with the US [perh. by extension JP]

zerooneinfinity• 10 years ago

He got off easy, it's 60 years in the United States.

pkrumins• 10 years ago

Here's a video of him confessing to his crime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYUMImDfhoo

welly• 10 years ago

Very well scripted by the NK government, almost like he picked the words himself.

striking• 10 years ago

A couple of those phrases just didn't sound right, as if they weren't picked by a native speaker. "...their treatment of severe criminals like myself and of their fair and square legal procedures in the DPR Korea"

As well as how awkwardly he walked in and bowed. Perhaps that's how people of the DPRK bow, but I've never seen that before.

brador• 10 years ago

We mock that, but it's the equivalent of the plea bargain.

Both instigate the victim to make a "confession" under duress due to the threat of "less beatings should they comply".

It might even be argued that outright torture could simply be considered a more extreme version of a plea bargain.

savanaly2• 10 years ago

HN really, really dislikes college kids, especially the globe trotting outgoing ones. I know because I fall in that camp of haters sometimes. Totally withhold judgement in this case, though, since we know almost no facts.

dalke3• 10 years ago

Do not extended your personal views against college students to all of HN readership. Your hatred does not represent my views.

andrewflnr2• 10 years ago

Also, as a college student who reads HN regularly, I have no idea what GP is talking about. It's not just you.

savanaly2• 10 years ago

It was meant tongue in cheek. I honestly don't hate anyone.

elliotec• 10 years ago

What the hell are you talking about? I've never seen anything remotely near your point other than this comment.

jessaustin2• 10 years ago

See irony.

dang• 10 years ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295159 and marked it off-topic.

eruditely2• 10 years ago

Our people will get him out right? We have special operations that handles this?

tomjen3• 10 years ago

Donald trump would.

Obama? Not sure he can be a softy or not depending

nness3• 10 years ago

Not likely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_detained_by_...

Although, Obama's administration did secure the release of journalists in 2009:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_imprisonment_of_American_...

4msonny• 10 years ago

dont we have a couple teenagers and several adults imprisoned....indefinitely...without any charges...at gitmo? why such outrage at NK but none at what our own govt. has been engaged in for over a decade..

an_account• 10 years ago

I would easily take 15 years at gitmo over 15 years in NK labor camp

nness3• 10 years ago

I'm sure he'd easily take home detention over either, but that's not really his choice.

jsnk• 10 years ago

I thought people locked up at gitmo are terrorists who wanted to kill people. This guy on the other hand tried to steal a poster. I can't even fathom how you are trying to draw parallel between the two cases.

deciplex• 10 years ago

I thought people locked up at gitmo are terrorists who wanted to kill people.

If only there were some kind of open forum, or even a closed forum where the records of same are made public, where the government could present evidence in favor of this assertion, and the accused could defend themselves against it in kind. We could even mandate that they be set free, should they prove themselves innocent, or that they be required to serve a defined prison term, should they not.

What a more just world we might live in, where such privileges were granted to everyone, regardless of how grievous the crimes they were accused of might be. Oh well.

parenthephobia• 10 years ago

You have missed the outrage over Gitmo, have you?

Or is it a problem that this article in particular dares to mention this person's imprisonment without also mentioning Gitmo?

nness3• 10 years ago

So, on one hand I understand that people visiting foreign countries are expected to follow the laws of that country. Plenty of tourists have been severely punished (or worse, executed) in places like Singapore and Indonesia for drug offences. Of all places you'd expect punishment for vandalism, NK certainly seems the most likely place.

I think the real concern is the disproportionate response to the crime. Which, may in part be; 1. both a deterrent for others, 2. a show of force against the US, 3. something which forces the US to reduce some of its embargos.

So, pity the fool and hope that something diplomatic can be done.

l33tbro2• 10 years ago

For those curious, here's his full press conference (1) presented in glorious 4:3 aspect ratio. This is obviously prior to recent sentencing:

(1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCZvgY1NGXU

joshmn• 10 years ago

NK is pioneer for 4:3 video technologies. Only America uses inferior 16:9.

finishingmove• 10 years ago

Similar story (just reverse the severity of the crime and the punishment): http://www.b92.net/eng/news/crimes.php?yyyy=2016&mm=01&dd=14...

tim333• 10 years ago

On the downside it's not nice for the student and a pain for US negotiators trying to get him out. On the other hand it may help throw some light on the issues of the 150,000–200,000 prisoners incarcerated in various prison camps, who don't get the press coverage.

North Korea Sentences U.S. Student to 15 Years Hard Labor

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