Apple Gets Tech Industry Backing in iPhone Dispute, Despite Misgivings

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/03/technology/tech-rallies-to-apples-defense-but-not-without-some-hand-wringing.html

by hvo • 10 years ago

89 57 10 years ago

angli• 10 years ago

To be honest I expected a bit more. If not more endorsement of Apple, some more, well, opinion. This read like a news piece with the word "persuasively" as the only bit of subjectivity. It's an odd piece overall.

Archio• 10 years ago

Not sure if you're unaware, but the NYT editorial board formally endorsed Apple on February 18th: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/opinion/why-apple-is-right...

I don't see any reason for them to mix additional opinion into their news coverage.

morgante• 10 years ago

If it's merely meant to be news coverage, it shouldn't be in the opinion section.

dang• 10 years ago

Either way, there isn't much there, so we changed the URL from http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/opinion/the-iphone-stays-l... to what appears to be the closest substantive news article. If someone has a better URL we can change it again.

wil421• 10 years ago

Did anyone else catch part of the congressional hearing on CSPAN?

I was appalled that some of the representatives want Apple to provide legislation that will make them unlock the phone under certain conditions.

The 1st and 5th amendment are what apples general counsel are arguing here. Code is protected speech so Apple is being compelled to speak by the Govt. They also argue the 5th amendment is being infringed because the FBI is using an All Writs Act which subverts due process.

It's really unfortunate Congress will most likely pass legislation requiring Apple to do this in the future (most likely for San Bernadino type cases but not the drug case mentioned in the acticle). It's gonna be up to the courts to determine whether or not it violates the constitution.

wildmusings10• 10 years ago

I doubt the "code is speech" argument will hold up when the only speaking is to a device that the government has the court-granted right to access. Apple isn't being asked to publish the modified iOS version at-large. Also, commercial speech has substantially less protection than political speech.

bcook• 10 years ago

(Explain your down-votes, please).

The SF/SV perspective is not universal.

LordKano• 10 years ago

Apple isn't being asked to publish the modified iOS version at-large.

Compelled speech in private is still compelled speech.

wvenable2• 10 years ago

Imagine instead of Apple, we were dealing with a single programmer who wrote security code for a device. So the result is it's a single person being forced to sit a keyboard and type out code for the government.

Does it make a difference that it's a company instead? Should it?

tclmeelmo4• 10 years ago

Consider however that Apple is being asked to digitally sign the modified FBiOS in order to load it onto the phone. The implications underlying the act of signing are the sort of speech that deserves the highest protection.

bad_user2• 10 years ago

You misunderstand the notion. Happens often because I think "speech" in this case is a misnomer, as it makes people believe that it's about having a monologue or a dialog. That's not the case. This freedom is about expression in all its forms. Which for example includes art, which is the act of creating artifacts to be primarily appreciated for their beauty or emotional power. Art is not necessarily about the author wanting to speak.

Going back to software, the freedom of expression is important, because software, functioning like an extension of us, of our intellect, probably more than any other human occupation except for art, happens to be very opinionated, to expose values and to incite both hope and despair for our future. It's not without reason that software development gets compared with making art.

It's not a wonder that Apple is taking a stand now. Any company worth its salt has values declared long ago and breaking those values is betraying your customers, not to mention that it can also hurt your bottom line. And the people at such companies are more than just cogs in the machine. Many of them work for their paychecks, sure, but many also have gotten in this industry to make a difference and now they risk being coerced in doing something they probably don't believe in.

Take Apple. They promised security and privacy to their customers and I'm sure many people at Apple worked hard to deliver that. How would you feel if you considered this to be your life's work, only to be forced later to aid in doing the exact opposite? Now that's an issue of freedom of expression ;-)

merpnderp2• 10 years ago

I appreciated the irony of the part where Comey stated it was not Apple's business to protect the public, it was the FBI's. The irony being that the San Bernidino terrorists could have been easily detected if law enforcement had done even the most trivial of background checks during immigration.

[EDIT for downvotes] This is just the first thing that came back when googling as to when they became radicalized. The investigation isn't complete and I don't know how much has been reveled or what is actually true, but it seems likely Malik came to the US for Jihad and that wasn't something she tried hard to keep a secret.

https://twitter.com/ABC7/status/674630837514596352/photo/1

st3v3r• 10 years ago

They didn't become radicalized until they were already over here.

rayiner2• 10 years ago

The "code is speech" argument is more subtle than people appreciate here. "Speech" is not a type of thing. "Speech" is something someone does. A black armband can be speech when it's being used to express an idea, or it could just be an article of clothing.

In my opinion, code in its functional capacity is not speech. The code that locks the user out after 10 tries is just the digital equivalent of a gear or valve: a functional building block of a machine. A gear in its functional capacity is not speech, but can be if used in a piece of sculpture for example.

In this particular context Apple has a stronger argument, though. The act of signing code does express an idea: Apple's trust in the code. That might well be protected speech.

Gorbzel• 10 years ago

It is, though I imagine there's better precedential cases for digital acts as speech than Tinker.

More importantly, good on you for this: > In my opinion, code in its functional capacity is not speech.

This is HUGELY important for people to recognize before arguing that "Code is speech" in an absolute sense. Sure, it seems like a clear-cut position in the Civil Liberties sphere, but then you find all that same protected speech is suddenly subject to © and 35 USC §101.

bcbrown2• 10 years ago

In my opinion, code in its functional capacity is not speech. The code that locks the user out after 10 tries is just the digital equivalent of a gear or valve: a functional building block of a machine. A gear in its functional capacity is not speech, but can be if used in a piece of sculpture for example.

That makes some sense, but I would distinguish between the use of an object and the creation of an object. Wouldn't designing a new gear or a new valve be speech? Are you arguing that there's no 1st amendment defense if the government tried to compel someone to design a new valve?

Zigurd• 10 years ago

So do this thought experiment: Apple is ordered to create fbiOS, and one or more engineers baulks and says: "This order is compelling me to write code, thereby compelling speech from me, and I refuse to write it." And she's sent to jail for contempt of court.

Your argument rests heavily on code that exists. It's much easier to argue that isn't speech just because it's easier to call it an object, an artifact. A gear. A knob. But before code is written, it is in the realm of thoughts.

gonehome2• 10 years ago

This is a pretty good analysis of the 'code = speech' argument: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/600916/apples-code-speech....

It's analysis I hadn't really considered before and you might find it interesting. That said, I agree it's a bad idea that Apple be asked to write legislation where they're compelled to comply for other reasons.

Excerpt:

"But on the other hand, and critically, there are many things that humans will do with code that will have nothing to do with the First Amendment (e.g., launching denial of service attacks and writing computer viruses). Code = Speech is a fallacy because it would needlessly treat writing the code for a malicious virus as equivalent to writing an editorial in the New York Times. Similarly, if companies use algorithms to discriminate on the basis of race or sex, wrapping those algorithms with the same constitutional protection we give to political novels would needlessly complicate civil rights law in the digital age.

It’s easy to argue that Code = Speech, but accepting that argument would create a mess, and an avoidable one at that. It’s harder to look at what the government is trying to do, and harder to figure out whether this is in conflict with the values the First Amendment protects, but that’s the way the law works. The hard way is also far more preferable to giving tech companies whose businesses run on code a free pass from the kinds of meaningful regulation we’ve imposed upon other companies since the New Deal."

dragonwriter• 10 years ago

Code = Speech is a fallacy because it would needlessly treat writing the code for a malicious virus as equivalent to writing an editorial in the New York Times.

I don't see that that is the case. Not all speech is treated "equivalent to writing an editorial in the New York Times", to start with; not all speech is treated equally, and harmful speech, particularly deliberately harmful speech, and particularly deliberately harmful speech that isn't communicating ideas about a matter of public concern, is not universally protected.

chatmasta• 10 years ago

I watched the hearing (or at least the parts of it I happened to skip to in the 5 hour YouTube video), and I actually found it encouraging. There were only a few representatives who acted as you describe, Gowdy being one of them. At first I found it discouraging, but after watching more of the hearing, I realized that other representatives had much more thorough understandings of the law and technology. It also seemed like none of the representatives in the chamber particularly respected this Gowdy guy, as evidenced by their shit talking him.

alblue• 10 years ago

Yes, I did, and I wrote up what happened at InfoQ. Incidentally the video stream is still available and I've linked to it from the news piece, so if you want to watch it again you can do so.

Note also that in the debate the FBI indicated that there were another 170+ phones that they'd like to use the backdoor on. So while they may only be able get Apple to create this software for this case, once it is built they'll just use standard subpoenas to get them to deliver it for each of the hundreds of additional phones on request.

http://www.infoq.com/news/2016/03/apple-fbi-congress

[edit] in the video the FBI has the first hour and a half, then there's a half hour recess, then Apple's lawyer and technical expert step in around the 2h mark. There's a great bit from the FBI around 20 mins in where they admit resetting the password on the iCloud account was not a sensible move.

ape4• 10 years ago

Locked Phone = can not change carrier.

gchokov• 10 years ago

I wish I could say the same thing about your Android phone. p.s. Let the downvoting begin now!

imglorp• 10 years ago

DOJ will be be appealing, naturally. They are after a supreme court ruling setting precedent, not a phone.

girkyturkey• 10 years ago

I find this to be really inspiring that despite how much Apple is rivals with other tech giants, they can still band together and back up their competition. Microsoft and others could have turned the other cheek and talked about how selfish Apple was, but then didn't. They banded together and stood behind Apple's decision. Really powerful message.

ygjb-dupe2• 10 years ago

This is less an issue of banding together behind Apple's decision, and more about retaining moral and intellectual control of their software.

If the government can get a warrant to force you to ship a patch, regardless of the scope, you are giving the government control over every aspect of how you write code, and the next logical step is a CALEA style requirements that ensures that your build process has lawful code injection capabilities.

I can't even begin to say how awful that would be for the entire industry.

merpnderp2• 10 years ago

How would that even work? What if I use a raspberry pi that I've added GSM and put in a phone like case, but am running Debian? I'm guessing only a very tiny number of people would be happy with this once the ramifications became clear.

esusatyo• 10 years ago

I think there is something to say to how the media is portraying bloody rivalry between tech companies. I'm sure most of them don't have the same tension we have in media, and they are all hang out with each other.

As an anecdote, I know that Steve Jobs used to hang out a lot with Bill Gates and Eric Schmidt, and I also know a few Microsoft employees who are really good friends with Apple and Google employees.

julie12• 10 years ago

http://qz.com/332059/apple-is-reportedly-giving-the-chinese-...

Lucky for USA citizens they are not Chinese.

Why does Apple find privacy okay in USA and not okay in China? I don't quite get the consistency in the position.

ygjb-dupe2• 10 years ago

Since people seem to think this is an easy set of points to win, consider:

* Apple has virtually no ability to shape policy in China (at least, in comparison to western democracies) * China (the government, not the people) is not subject to the same limitations as the US government * Apple depends on China for a great deal of things, including manufacturing, and a market for products * If Apple can't manufacture and market it's products in China, it's products become more expensive and less available all over the world. * China passed laws and regulations that demand access to source code

Apple choosing to fight this battle is undoubtedly motivated by the potential business impact of supplying the software that the US government has demanded, and there is no doubt in my mind that if it was a better long term move for Apple, then it's leadership team would concede, and ship the code they were asked for (see: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2472002/endpoint-securi... among other instances).

Apple is using the polarizing nature of the technical details at hand in light of modern concerns about the surveillance state to frame it's argument against what would be a very bad legal precedent that would be disastrous for Apple, and for the tech sector in general.

I don't quite understand where your perceived lack of consistency is - are you implying that Apple didn't try to use every tool at it's disposal to do the best thing for it's investors?

julie12• 10 years ago

Oh no, I do think they think in their investor's bests interests. I am not sure the investors' interests are in sync with more freedom for any citizens on earth.

I am just accepting the fact the Apple has a very variable concern about freedom of speech and privacy when their business is concerned.

Like when workers are prevented from exercising their freedom to choose a new job and make competition works their way and Apple take part into a no poaching agreement.

Then I look at IT's budget, their contribution to the world taxes and I clearly think that they do not really care about the laws of the common people.

And then I am concerned by companies that are richer than most governments in the world and how they behave when they have enough power.

Should we accept that big power without control and just hope for the better?

Remember UK and France used to have bad experiences with such huge companies and that it did not ended well for anyone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

katbyte• 10 years ago

Because China asked for access to check for back doors in the devices not to add back doors like the USA is?

adventured• 10 years ago

When did Apple say they don't think the people of China should have privacy?

The difference is, Apple can't do anything about the Communist dictatorship in China. They don't ask nicely, they don't debate you on liberty or policy, they tell you how things are. Apple can try to resist what the FBI is asking for in the US. They could similarly try to resist such moves in most of Europe. That's the benefit of democracy / representative government in the US / Europe / elsewhere vs what China has. If the Chinese people dislike it so much, they are the ones that will have to do something about it, nobody else can do it for them.

Cerium• 10 years ago

Apple supports security of devices, and in all cases that is good. Security and privacy are different things. Security can be used to enable privacy. Also, if Apple's phones are secure what harm is giving details to the Chinese government? It won't help break into a truly secure device.

What is missing from most of the discussion is that strongly secure phones are good for the government. If the US government can ask Apple in the US to open a phone, then the Chinese government can ask Apple in China to open a phone. That means that every phone is vulnerable to theft and transport to a jurisdiction that agrees to the 'lawful' access to the contents.

Apple Gets Tech Industry Backing in iPhone Dispute, Despite Misgivings

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