America’s airlines are introducing a class below economy

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2016/02/bottom-class

by prostoalex • 10 years ago

67 105 10 years ago

s_m_t• 10 years ago

How exactly is this a bad thing? When I buy a plane ticket I only buy it for the privilege of being flown from one area of the country to the other, I don't care about anything else and I don't want to pay for anything more.

baby8• 10 years ago

I don't think it's a bad thing. But the experience of flying has now became more than awful. Between the 2 hours TSA lines that make people miss their flights, the "you have to walk bare foot to pass the security" while we shout at you, the lack of space when you're sitting at your seat, ...

CardenB• 10 years ago

Have you flown recently? I don't think flying is as bad as you describe, at all.

viraptor2• 10 years ago

I think it depends on the length of the flight. I'm happy to go with Ryanair in Europe (not sure you can go with a worse airline), because it's max 2-3h. But there's no way I'd do that for a longer flight for a number of reasons.

For a 23h trip, I'll definitely get the better option I can reasonably afford.

officialchicken• 10 years ago

Transavia - the Dutch competitor of Ryan Air and owned by KLM is one to avoid as well.

aikah2• 10 years ago

When I buy a plane ticket I only buy it for the privilege of being flown from one area of the country to the other

Sure you want to pay for a confortable flight that will not make you feel totally exhausted or in bad shape once you land. Would you travel from US to UK while standing up because it would be 50% cheaper? with no toilets ? and a 100% fee for luggage ? because after all, you "only buy it for the privilege of being flown from one area of the country to the other".

I remember a time when consumers believed their interest was the best possible value for their money. Now we have a generation who justifies the worse business practices "because corporations must maximise profit for their shareholders" ? How is it in the interest of the consumer ?

H0n3sty• 10 years ago

When I read the title I thought about Spirit airlines - funny that they mentioned this being done in response to Spirit.

dmak2• 10 years ago

Interesting how the airline industry has become a race to the bottom.

masterleep3• 10 years ago

Interesting how people value low prices and companies are reacting to their wishes.

two2two• 10 years ago

Avg. air fares have only dropped 13.8% since 1995. Nearly 20 years of innovation later.

bendykstra• 10 years ago

The bottom being an exceptionally safe and rapid form of transportation. As someone who is willing to endure mild discomfort in return for $20-$100, I welcome this new option.

Zikes• 10 years ago

I will happily fly in the equivalent of a capsule hotel if the prices are reasonable.

greggman2• 10 years ago

A capsule hotel to me would nearly be as good as first class for long flights. Much much better than actual business class because I'd get to sleep.

viraptor2• 10 years ago

Same. I just can't sleep sitting up. It doesn't matter how much free space there is, I'd take horizontal, stacked place over business class seat/pod.

pklausler7• 10 years ago

What sucks about this is that many corporate travel policies require you to take the lowest available fare for a trip. So now that's going to often be an even more horrible cattle-car steerage nightmare than it is today. I'm not overly tall and not seriously claustrophobic but I already view airline travel outside "first class" with dread -- these new sub-economy fares are going to be torture.

mbell2• 10 years ago

Don't work for them, it's pretty simple.

I don't know what field you work in, but give that this is HN I assume you're a developer, if so you'll probably not see a better job market, don't put up with shit.

Pyxl101• 10 years ago

It's not pretty simple if travel is an insignificant part of your job that you only undertake once every year or few years. (You shouldn't casually suggest that someone quit their job over something that might be and probably is trivial just because they don't like it. It's disingenuous. Note, I didn't downvote you, though I thought about it.)

But there are better solutions than that, anyway. Corporate travel policies might only reimburse the cheapest fair, but you can often book a better fair and reimburse the cheapest rate while paying the discrepancy yourself if you wish (which is how you might fly first class).

greggarious• 10 years ago

Considering one of those employers is the federal government (and anyone receiving money from them) that could be harder than you expect.

Almost all of my travel in grad school was funded through taxpayer money. You ever fly to Okinawa in economy? It's not fun.

quaffapint• 10 years ago

I don't know about it being a better market. There's jobs (and that's actually been pretty consistent), but the pay, at least in my area, is just not there and hasn't been for the past 7 years (very slight uptick in the past 18 months, but nothing major yet). Sticking with the old corporate job is still the best bet around here.

jimminy2• 10 years ago

Sadly the job market is heavily centralized, from my recent experience. I can get offers in SF, Seattle, or NY, but I'm personally attached to the Mid-Atlantic for personal reasons, and it's been months of hell.

Now I don't discuss previous salaries, as I'm sure that has torpedoed several offers. That just leads down a road that is an inverse of the Impostor Syndrome, where they think you're overqualified for the position, and you can tell from the responses and further question. I am seriously wondering about the culture of the game, that it can be so seriously lacking of it's shining feature: distributed collaborative work.

pklausler7• 10 years ago

Who's hiring that flies top engineers in business class or better? Anybody?

amelius• 10 years ago

Well, the nice thing is, if you can manage to stay in economy: the "cattle" will probably switch to sub-economy :)

qmr3• 10 years ago

I already view airline travel outside "first class" with dread

You poor thing!

At any rate, many corporate travel policies also allow business class on flights over N hours.

baby8• 10 years ago

> I already view airline travel outside "first class" with dread
You poor thing!

I seriously agree with him though. I never book first class, was upgraded once for free, but man I wish I could be business/first class all the time. They just shove us elbow to elbow and you can't even lie down. For 13+ hours flights it's a nightmare. Back problems for weeks after.

kawera• 10 years ago

Next, no seating at all, just standing, like in a metro train at 6pm!

GFischer• 10 years ago

Unfortunately, RyanAir's proposal was shut down:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/New-call-for-standing...

I am definitely willing to experience more discomfort in exchange for a lower fare, and from other comments, so are many others here.

dzhiurgis• 10 years ago

Asides from safety, wouldn't standing be actually more comfortable?

Sleeping pods make much more sense - you are safe in case of sudden breaking and somewhat comfortable. The fairest way would be introducing progressive seat sizes and charge accordingly. Small people pay less for seats that are actually more comfortable (more fitting their height) and tall people have option not injuring themselves without paying 3x more.

r00fus• 10 years ago

Standing means it's likely no kids. Traveling for any length of time with kids is impossible if they can't sit down.

plorkyeran• 10 years ago

For flights of up to a few hours I'd pay more to be able to spend the entire flight standing without getting shooed into a seat. Wouldn't work too well for anything crossing an ocean, though.

greggman2• 10 years ago

Cheap airlines (and maybe cheap seats?) actually have an unintended side effect for me. Recently I flew from Singapore to Hong Kong. The first 4 options in price according to Google flights were $69, $105, $540, ~$1500. I found that spread kind of shocking. The 2 bottom prices were for budget airlines (Tiger and Jetstar) both rated at 1 of 5 and 1.5 of 5 respectively. The $548 option was Singapore Air, consistently rated very good.

$548 is 7x $69!! That's a HUGE difference.

Anyway, I ended up taking Singapore Air because it flew at a time that fit my schedule. On the flight I had an issue with the entertainment system. It was resolved but had it not been resolved I'd have been extremely angry because I knew I'd paid some portion of $469 for entertainment.

I don't know how and if that will ever play out or if there will be any real repercussions but just knowing I paid 7x more means I expect extreme perfection, something I would not have expected if the price difference was only ~5% or something.

hboon• 10 years ago

For Singapore Airline vs the budget airlines in the region, there is a key difference that makes it worth paying for business travel — more predictable arrival time.

wtvanhest• 10 years ago

The time and day you fly are the biggest factors in price. It was 100% intended.

rayiner6• 10 years ago

Travellers have signalled that they are willing to suffer all sorts of discomforts and inconveniences for the sake of a lower fare. America’s big airlines are simply giving them what they wished for.

I feel the same way about people who complain about crappy airlines as I do about people who complain about crappy video games. If you don't want to be treated like cattle don't buy the cheapest ticket you can find on Hotwire (and stop buying from EA). It's not like there aren't dozens of other options to choose from.

pklausler7• 10 years ago

And what do you do about the corporate travel policy that requires you to book the cheapest available fare?

stegosaurus• 10 years ago

Don't work for that employer?

madeofpalk2• 10 years ago

The same thing as when you disagree with any other policy or action your company might set.

masterleep3• 10 years ago

Pray that the airlines do not introduce a Steerage class in the baggage hold?

mdorazio2• 10 years ago

Book the more expensive one and expense the cheaper one (i.e., you pay the difference). I have yet to have an employer say I can't do this.

baby8• 10 years ago

What does that have to do with this? This is a problem with your job.

mikeash6• 10 years ago

Totally agree. What really gets me is when people complain about the limited space in economy, then say more spacious "economy plus" options cost too much. Vote with your wallet, people.

xdissent• 10 years ago

Please explain how my wallet's vote would impact their pricing?

aikah2• 10 years ago

Or better, as a consumer get more value for your money by pressuring companies to stop shitty business practices through activism. And how can you "vote with your wallet" in an industry that is de facto an oligopoly ? it's no free market.

amorphid• 10 years ago

I flew Frontier once. Never again. Unless it's the only choice.

empath752• 10 years ago

Yeah why don't they just have more money.

zelcon5• 10 years ago

And in year 2020... http://36.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln5ipwsRxJ1qd94ffo1_1280.p...

orbitingpluto• 10 years ago

A whole new branch of law emerges: leg clot liability

throwaway_exer• 10 years ago

For those interested in the future of American air travel ...

Regional airlines, which carry half of pax, have been "last class" for decades, but they're about to disappear.

The new pilot training rules requiring 1500 hours of experience have destroyed their ability to operate. The first to declare bankruptcy is Republic, but the rest will soon join it.

The majors have used the regionals for union-busting purposes, but those days are over.

qmr3• 10 years ago

No, regionals are not disappearing. There are still tons of kids in the pipeline who will do anything to fly jets. Several regionals are owned by majors anyway.

lquist• 10 years ago

This is great! This will open airline travel to a segment of the population that has historically not had access. This is the story of airline travel. It has taken decades, but what was only available to the richest of the rich is now available to socioeconomically disadvantaged groups of society.

macinjosh4• 10 years ago

I've always wondered why the main 'innovation' in the airline industry (when it comes to lowering fares) is to treat customers more and more like herd animals. There has to be better ways to make flying affordable while maintaining both safety and comfort.

Last time I flew the reclining feature in person's seat in front of me was broken and it was 5 - 7 inches in front of my face for the duration of the flight. I couldn't even read my book. I got a free soda for my trouble.

In my view flying has become something exclusively for the wealthy who can afford the half-way decent seats made for real humans who have dignity.

For me, flying is now only something I do where the importance of my presence supersedes the cost of a decent seat. Otherwise, a video call will do.

qmr3• 10 years ago

There is not much to wonder about. It is because it is what the market responds to.

Everyone bitches. No one pays more for more service.

baby8• 10 years ago

Once I had the opportunity to get a business ticket expensed, I looked at the price: 5 times the price of a coach seat.

macinjosh4• 10 years ago

And if companies only offered what the market asked for there would never have been personal computers or smartphones. It takes someone who has vision for what could be to change the world through innovation. Not a bunch of marketing monkeys surveying customers to death.

mikeash6• 10 years ago

How else would you propose to cut costs? Maintenance, crew, and fuel are already near the technological limits. Profits are basically zero. The only remaining ways to cut prices are to cram more people into the same space, or make people pay for extra services. And the customers demand lower prices no matter what. They crave it. The airlines are just giving people what they want.

macinjosh4• 10 years ago

über for planes? /s

rayiner6• 10 years ago

It's a combinations of physics and resource economics. There is a theoretical maximum efficiency in any Brayton cycle, which is in practice limited by the maximum temperature at the turbine blades, which is itself limited by metallurgy. Improvements on that front come very slowly--fuel efficiency has only about doubled since 1960, has improved very slowly since 1990. Except for the recent cratering of fuel prices, these improvements in fuel efficiency have been more than eaten up by rising fuel costs.

But, hey that's pretty much the entire world outside of computing. Did you know that a modern coal plant is only about twice as efficient as one from a century ago? Same thing will happen in computing too, soon enough: http://imgur.com/NFysh.

pcwalton• 10 years ago

I don't like those charts because they focus on consumer CPUs and neglect the GPU. The GPU is what all the extra die space is going to these days on consumer CPUs. On the server you're seeing 18 core CPUs announced last year [1], so we are indeed seeing multicore scaling in both the consumer and server markets. It's just that, for consumer CPUs, the new cores are GPU cores instead of CPU cores.

[1] http://ark.intel.com/products/81061/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-...

empath752• 10 years ago

When people say stuff like this I have to wonder if they have any idea how most of the world lives. Have you seen trains in India or busses in Latin America? The worst seat on the worst airline in the world is better that sitting on an un-air conditioned chicken bus in Nicaragua for 7 hours during a farmer protest, let me tell you. And I wouldn't say that anyone on that bus lacked dignity.

macinjosh4• 10 years ago

Wow, you have a twisted view of the world. I never said people who fly coach or who are crammed into a bus or train in the developing world lack dignity. I am saying the people who run the transportation companies don't treat their customers with dignity. Big difference.

Besides that there is nothing wrong with aspiring for better travel. Why accept that we have to be crammed onto airplanes, busses, and trains. We should be looking for ways to improve quality of life for everyone.

perseusprime11• 10 years ago

Caste system.

CyberDildonics• 10 years ago

It will be called the 'United' class.

fixxer2• 10 years ago

This is why I drive now.

baby8• 10 years ago

Good like crossing the ocean.

fixxer2• 10 years ago

Well, in that case, don't fly American.

AndrewKemendo2• 10 years ago

If you look at the history of air travel [1] it's clear that airplanes are the new busses.

Air-travel was essentially once reserved for the wealthy, and mostly white travelers but as more people moved up into the middle class there was increased demand for air-travel which drove competition to accommodate them. When southwest was born it completely changed the game and the race to the bottom started.

On one hand this has been great, as it has enabled everyone in the US to be able to fly and increased safety significantly. On the other hand, the "elegance" of air travel, which I think most people still desire, is basically gone in the US.

Asian carriers such as Emirates, Singapore etc... all maintain the elegant aspect, but at significantly higher costs because they are servicing the higher end still. You'll notice that they have no US domestic equivalent.

Expect that eventually there will be no pretense of elegance and it will look exactly like ground transportation.

Interestingly enough, Amtrak has taken advantage of this and on the east coast at least is largely considered a better experience between the DC <> Boston corridor.

[1] http://www.fastcodesign.com/3022215/terminal-velocity/what-i...

pklausler7• 10 years ago

I don't get the connection to increased safety. Can you elaborate, please?

mikeash6• 10 years ago

People used to take other means of transportation more often for long trips, which was a lot less safe. Cheaper plane tickets means fewer people dying on the roads.

AndrewKemendo2• 10 years ago

Part of it is in the linked article.

Bottom line: As flying increased in frequency, injuries went up linearly and people freaked out. The demands for better design, efficiency and well, safety, drove the industry to adopt standards very quickly which led to better records. There are some graphs out there that show it well [1].

[1]http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm

evan_• 10 years ago

I expected worse, to be honest. It sounds like the worst thing about it is not being able to choose a seat- but otherwise the same basic in-flight experience as "regular" economy.

gonzo• 10 years ago

Worse is Better?

brianmcconnell• 10 years ago

What really gets me are the people who complain about being able to fly across an entire continent within five hours in near perfect safety for a few hundred dollars.

I remember being trapped next to a loud woman on one flight where she proceeded to complain about every minor insult (slow drink service, so so food, etc). When we got to the Sierra Nevada, I pointed out the Donner Pass to her, and suggested she look it up. "It'll give you some perspective on your trip".

America’s airlines are introducing a class below economy

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