What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

http://www.gadgette.com/2016/01/19/what-i-learnt-from-being-sexually-harassed-at-google/

by AndrewDucker • 11 years ago

180 226 11 years ago

gadgette.com

zoidb• 11 years ago

original - https://medium.com/@juliachou/it-s-not-your-fault-3e5ad1ccb9...

dang• 11 years ago

Previously discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10909612.

qb455• 11 years ago

In the span of a week, I went from feeling excited and motivated about my job to feeling lethargic, anxious, and unenthused. (...) I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility (...)

There exists a breed of narcissists who are so incapable of tolerating rejection that they will consistently ignore every sign of it. In fact, the less you are satisfied with their actions, the more they will repeat them, desperately needing to see that your displeasure was just a temporary fluke and in the end they really are those cool dudes who are never wrong and everybody just admires them.

As a man I've never been asked to sit on one's lap (knock on wood), but some did give me a fair amount of trouble.

It doesn't help that their delusional serf-confidence can be confused with competence by some less experienced folks and get them promoted to management roles. In fact, I'd expect their density to increase as you go up the corporate food chain.

marincounty3• 11 years ago

I'm a hetrosexual male who's done everything from construction to coding. At every job I've had--workers, mainly guys, but so, so many women too, discuss their sexual life. (In all honestly, women have told me too more personal things (sexual in nature) at work, over men. The big difference is these women had no power over my career.

And the difference is they weren't "hitting" on me. When I was a younger man--yes some where, but I handled the situation. (I guarantee now they are just yacking about sex, and their personal stuff.)The last thing I wanted to hear on a Monday was a story about Shirly's elder son walking in on her and her new boy friend "rattling the bed". I still can't get that image out of my head, and it's been 20 years.

Actually, I have found both sexes guilty of talking about their sex life at work. It could be intimate details of the date you had on Friday night, or how your mate isn't attentive to your needs any more. I've never liked hearing personal stuff about my coworkers. Of course, I never said anything, because it was innocent conversation at the time, but if I was an attractive female, or a young attractive male, I might have thought differently.

Maybe we shouldn't talk about this stuff at work. Personally, I just don't like hearing anything that personal ever. That's what therapists get paid to suffer through?

I not conflating my experiences with her's; just stating we shouldn't talk about anything remotely sexual--hell--shut up about baby on the way. We see the cute baby bump, or suffer through how hard it was to fertilize the egg. (Guys like me look at it as a tragedy, not something great.) People talk way too much at work. In my experience, most are lonely and don't have close friends, and use workers as free friends, and free therapy. We don't want to hear it. The jokes are worn out. It's just done. Find friends outside of work to dazzle with your stories. I know finding friends is very hard. It's even harder, if all you have concentrated on is work since that first job out of college.

And yes, some are sexual predators. I've seen them in most work places. Ive seen gay managers give special jobs to their boy Friday. I've seen pretty girls promoted--just becase they are pretty. I used to see blatatent sexual harassment, but not in the last fifteen years, but it looks like it hasn't gone away, at least at Google.

skj2• 11 years ago

Nice typo about Shirley's elder son wanking in on her... I hope?

cmdkeen3• 11 years ago

Again there's a specific issue about power imbalances. A colleague says some things you don't like it is quite easy to ask them to refrain. With a manager that may not be the case, especially if you're new to the world of work.

Managing people is a responsibility and you can't act like people you have power over are just your colleagues. Perhaps in time if you build up a close working relationship with people you can be friends who do or say things that are more risky - because you've established boundaries.

It's also worth saying that if a colleague is being inappropriate the first stop doesn't have to be HR, it can be a manager - they are there to ensure teams work well. A good manager should even pre-empt the complaint if they observe the inappropriate behaviour. That's what makes it so bad when the manager is the one at fault.

ethbro6• 11 years ago

Personally, I like hearing and sharing with my coworkers about our lives outside of work... to a point. If my partner on-site is having a hard time at home due to issue X, that directly impacts my interpersonal relationship with him/her: were they to blow up at me in a moment of tension, I'd be more comfortable giving them a pass knowing where it might be coming from.

That said, I think it's the "to a point" that's the difficulty here. Because that point is a socially-negotiated line and may be different between different coworkers, in different work contexts or surroundings, or just on different days. And... pardon to say... but "we" (as computer science professionals) aren't renowned for our attention to social cues and ability to navigate and be informed by same.

In short, I feel like sexual harassment training might better be spent training on soft skills / communicating and reading ones coworkers better.

PS: This absolutely applies equally to both parties in the original blog post. With the additional responsibility that the manager, as an individual in a position of authority, has a higher standard to uphold than the employee. Either they misread or ignored signals that these topics made the employee in question uncomfortable, or such signals weren't clearly given. In either case, communication breakdown.

PPS: Simultaneously, I know I produce my best work when I feel like my team (including management above me) knows and communicates with me as more than a cog -- and yes, sometimes this includes crass language / semi-appropriate jokes or stories. In a lot of ways, it's a verbal trust-fall exercise. If I'm uncomfortable with anything, I try to clearly communicate that back to whoever is sharing.

4k3• 11 years ago

I am member of a minority, and have had more than one chance to go to the HR to report "being racially abused" and present the narrative in such a way that anyone would be convinced it was horrible.

Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop here, instead goes to HR. I mean just in plain words "Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases.

During the HR investigation that ensued, I remember being shamed by a female colleague who thought I was blowing the situation out of proportion. She thought I was being overly sensitive, and that it was wrong of me to report my manager. That hurt. I thought she would’ve naturally supported me.

"Being shamed"? What if that female colleague honestly thought that she was blowing the situation out of proportion? A mere disagreement is shaming? Just because someone thinks they are 'sexually harassed' doesn't make them right automatically. I mean is there any scenario where someone claiming they are harassed could be on the wrong side of the things (or blowing things out of proportion)? It seems the SF/valley area atleast is too politically correct to even entertain the possibility that the female could possibly be wrong or making a mistake. Anyone that doesn't agree with a narrow notion of SJW equality is literally the devil. And this sort of trend has made 'being victim' a somewhat coveted status that can be used for gaining publicity/career advances.

thedz7• 11 years ago

Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop here, instead goes to HR. I mean just in plain words "Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases.

1. Your implicit dismissal of her as a victim by using quotes is, frankly, a pretty large part of the reason why women feel so frustrated in tech. Here you are, a third party to this situation, automatically assuming that she's somehow someone who is purposely trying to take advantage of a situation.

2. Why is it the woman's responsibility to tell her male manager that it's inappropriate to ask her to sit on his lap? I mean, c'mon. I'll ask a coworker to stop if he's playing his music too loudly, but this is hardly in the same league. Plus, he's in a position of power over her, as her manager.

3. This situation is _precisely_ why there's an HR department.

daveguy• 11 years ago

Trying to get a coworker to sit on your lap and telling her about your sexual prowess is 100%, no room for uncertaintainty, sexual harassment. I'm not sure what minority you hail from, but if the environment you were raised in considers that "not sexual harassment" then you need to learn from this story and adjust your behavior appropriately to make sure you aren't sexually harassing in your workplace.

qb455• 11 years ago

The really creepy part is not any particular of his unfortunate "advances", but the fact that he stubbornly continued them for few days despite the girl being completely turned off and freaked out by him.

"Please don't, this is inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge majority of cases.

It depends. If there are witnesses, sure. But in private, the guy has a choice - treat this seriously and feel bad about what he'd just done or try to downplay it as a tease and continue hitting on her expecting that "things will work out". Some choose the former, some choose the latter. Some really go to great lengths to avoid admitting they are wrong.

Then there is also the question, whether somebody who behaves as if he couldn't even tell if a girl is into him or not should actually be managing a team of people.

TazeTSchnitzel• 11 years ago

Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual harassment.

Perhaps you do not understand what "sexual harassment" constitutes in typical usage, then.

AznHisoka• 11 years ago

Is this really a problem with Silicon Valley? I think it's an universal problem you'll find in all industries.

moomin3• 11 years ago

Women who leave seem to think it's worse in tech. Pretty solid data point.

Ma8ee• 11 years ago

It's probably worse in all sectors where women are a small minority.

lagadu2• 11 years ago

That's a pretty terrible data point because of how biased it is.

It's like saying that everyone who abandoned a certain film halfway says the film is bad and concluding that most people in general hate the film: your data points are coming from a group who almost exclusively hated the film in the first place: they're not representative of the entire population.

facepalm2• 11 years ago

What kind of comparison do "they" have, though? And is it more than a couple of anecdotes amplified by the popularity of the medium they were posted on? Also consider we are on a tech site, so we are more likely to consume tech media which is more likely to report harassment of women in tech.

nervousvarun• 11 years ago

Probably relevant that Silicon Valley is disproportionately male vs. "all industries".

rplnt2• 11 years ago

I'm starting to think that I am (or we, men, are) blind to this. If it happens as much as is reported (I don not work in SV, but I'd guess Eastern-ish Europe would be worse), then it must happen before out eyes, or even worse, we are the ones doing it. I honestly can't think of such incident, but this suggest that there were many that I simply ignored, didn't see them as such.

edit: To make it clear, I definitely didn't witness incidents like kissing and lap sitting.. but more subtle ones might come under my radar.

aikah2• 11 years ago

I'm starting to think that I am (or we, men, are) blind to this.

Nobody's blind to that. Most of the time it's just that nobody wants to get involved in cases like that. For all one knows ones could be accused of doing nothing about it. So people prefer "not to see" and "not to know", just like in blatant cases of racism at work. So it's not blindness , it's just individualism.

but I'd guess Eastern-ish Europe would be worse

Why just Eastern Europe ? I'm French and sexual harassment is an endemic issue. Same in Italy. We might have stronger laws against it but good luck when it comes to proving it happened in a court of law.

acdha3• 11 years ago

The main thing to remember is that much of it is done by men who are smart enough not to be easily caught. The rest of us don't see things happening because they're careful not to have witnesses, or try to have some plausible excuse.

That leads to the other side of how toxic this is: if you're harassed, how do you know who's safe to tell? It's probably safer not to tell other men if you don't want to risk finding out that they're part of the problem or just unsympathetic without unrealistic levels of proof.

noir_lord2• 11 years ago

It does happen and I've seen it, I had to take my own manager to one side when I was team leader and explain to him his behaviour was unacceptable and he'd likely end up with an HR complaint.

In that case it was jokes that I don't think had any malice but would definitely look bad in front of HR.

crusso• 11 years ago

but I'd guess Eastern-ish Europe would be worse

You don't have to go to Eastern-ish Europe for that. I've spent some time in offices around London over the last couple of years and I've found that it's much more likely to witness sexually-charged conversation in the IT workplace than here in the US.

nikcub6• 11 years ago

The universal rate of sexual harassment of females is 31%[1] in Silicon Valley it is 60%[2]. The restaurant industry is notorious for sexual harassment and their rate of harassment from superiors is 66%[3] - about par with Silicon Valley.

So, yes, it is a problem in Silicon Valley - and ignorance of the severity of the problem is a large part of the problem (you'll find a lot of research on sexual harassment in other industries but very little on tech and SV in particular).

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20071018041054/http://www.sexual...

[2] http://elephantinthevalley.com/

[3] http://rocunited.org/pr-the-glass-floor-report/

Joeboy6• 11 years ago

The second statistic says it's about "unwanted sexual advances", not "sexual harassment". Not being interested isn't the same as being sexually harassed.

Edit: The way the page is written makes it hard to understand what most of it actually means, but if I interpret it correctly 50% of 65% of 60% received sexual advances from a superior more than once. So about 20% had experience of a boss failing to take a hint.

yummyfajitas2• 11 years ago

The 60% number refers to "unwanted sexual advances", not sexual harassment. Only 30% received unwanted sexual advances more than once, so that seems like a solid upper bound on actual sexual harassment.

If you consider even a single unwanted sexual advance to be harassment then you get silly conclusions which I expect you don't endorse. For example, I've been "harassed" repeatedly by fatties and gay guys in the past few weeks - they approach me and go away when I display disinterest. Pune and Bombay are so unsafe for men!

vog• 11 years ago

The fraction of women in IT is very low, and has been for decades. That's the obvious, solid data point that most people seem to ignore.

onion2k• 11 years ago

All the more reason why it's important to recognise it's a problem in Silicon Valley and to start fixing it. Leading is better than following, right?

mbrutsch8• 11 years ago

My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated.

I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit out, stop acting like a damn teenager" might well have stopped this problem in its tracks. But we'll never know.

I read these tales of woe and wonder why people today lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves, rather than resigning themselves to the status of "victim".

EliRivers5• 11 years ago

When something like this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated.

Good for her. What happened next was that the offender moved on to someone else, and when they found someone who wasn't so confident as your mother, sexually assaulted her.

It's nice that you wonder why people don't stand up for themselves, but you should be careful that people don't accidentally think that you're ascribing blame to the victim. It is interesting that you imply that in previous generations, there were no victims. This does not tally with the evidence I have that indicates that sexual assault and other such crimes have been with us for a long time.

Ntrails• 11 years ago

See - this is interesting. There is definitely a sense that in "ye olden days" people were stauncher. There's a bit of application of so called common sense where a lot of behaviours can be shut down by addressing them.

Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not being more assertive, and not being able to protect themself from something that they should never have to deal with - it's not even close to acceptable behaviour.

I am not unsympathetic to your point, I just kinda wish some consequences would start arising for the seemingly endless tide of entitled pricks who either don't care or don't know any better.

sheraz9• 11 years ago

This. This so much!

My mother worked in the oil industry in the 70s and 80s, and these are the exact things she would say. (talk about male-dominated industry!)

Heading off to HR only sweeps the conflict under a bureaucratic rug and never really deals with the problem effectively.

Todays office culture is so toxic, and I fear it will get worse as "trigger warning" and "safe places" graduate from college campuses to the workplace.

Rather, just be a stronger person and call out the bastard to is acting the fool.

acdha3• 11 years ago

You should spend less time condemning other people and more time reading what they wrote.

It's great that your mother felt confident standing up to abuse. Not everyone does — and someone early in their career, knowing that their entire life trajectory can be affected by their boss's reviews and networking, is going to feel different than, say, an established figure in the field or a worker at a union shop who can expect their support. The author of this article appears to have gone to Google directly from college and it's only reasonable to worry about jeopardizing your first big job by leaving quickly.

The other thing to pay attention to is the nature of the abuse. It's easy to reject some guy who makes a crude leer in front of witnesses. Her former boss was apparently more subtle than that since he managed to get at least one female coworker to take his side excusing his behavior.

That's not an accident - the men who do this kind of thing usually aren't the crude street-harassers of stereotype and are smart enough to pick women who are more likely to be vulnerable while leaving as little clear evidence as possible.

icebraining• 11 years ago

A friend of my mother's also worked in a similar all-male environment, and had the same response to advances. It went well - until it didn't, and then it went terribly.

And of course, she didn't publicly tell her "tale of woe" because at the time she wouldn't have just one guy telling her she shared the blame for it, but the whole society. So she suffered in silence. Which is great, because it allowed everyone else - even years later - to pretend it didn't exist, and that people were just braver and stronger, unlike the kids these days.

leothekim• 11 years ago

I read these tales of woe and wonder why people today lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves, rather than resigning themselves to the status of "victim".

Interestingly enough, the author of the article never calls herself a victim or uses the word at all. Sure she was scared, and yeah we don't know what she said to her manager. But she's talking about her feelings about being sexually harassed in a very public forum, subject to all that comes with presenting your viewpoint on the internet. She's encouraging others to speak out about it, presumably to find the "intestinal fortitude to stand up for themselves" that you find so lacking in people today.

She's also gone on to co-found a company. That doesn't sound like a victim to me, or a tale of woe.

I don't think sharing your feelings about being sexually harassed means you're acting like a victim. Quite the opposite. You're pointing out that this happens, and that if it happened to you then you're not alone, and it's not ok. There's strength in empathy.

Your mom sounded pretty tough and she undoubtedly dealt with a lot of BS, but I'm certain she would have appreciated someone telling her that that BS was not ok. That's not being a victim or being weak, that's just being human.

lenocinor• 11 years ago

My mother also worked in a mostly-male field (programming) from the '60s on forward. She rebuffed people too in the same way that you are talking about -- it was the only way to survive as a female programmer at her company (she worked at the same company for her entire career). She was strong and didn't take bullshit from guys.

But over time she told me that it really wore her down and made her feel negatively about work. Even if people were stronger historically, it didn't mean that the environment was ok, or that it didn't really bother them.

rrauenza• 11 years ago

Isn't this classic Survivorship Bias?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

mcculley2• 11 years ago

I suspect that while Silicon Valley has slightly more instances of this behavior than other industries (due to lots of startups running without adult supervision), the perception is amplified by the victims being more likely to have blogs or other ways to speak up about it.

mcculley2• 11 years ago

I'm intrigued by the downvote. I've seen lots of misogynism in less technical industries and much less in some large mature technology organizations. Does the downvoter disagree that the behavior in Silicon Valley gets more attention? I haven't been in Silicon Valley myself in over ten years, so I don't know what it's like there. I just see lots of bad behavior in other regions and industries that's not blogged about.

rplnt2• 11 years ago

a company well-known for its “Do no evil” culture

This was their motto a decade back and what they are doing does not reflect it even remotely. I'm pretty sure they are not known for "do no evil" culture, just that the slogan is tied to them somehow.

skj2• 11 years ago

That's not the slogan. It's "don't be evil."

"Don't do evil" is impossible for a corporation with 50k employees. "Don't be evil" is a worthy ideal to strive for.

jneal• 11 years ago

I'm not going to speak directly regarding the way this individual handled this situation, but in general, if you experience any form of sexual harassment I highly recommend you speak with HR immediately following the incident. Don't allow it to escalate, things can only get worse. Even if it's your first day on the job, you should never feel speaking to HR regarding an incident is a bad idea.

Aeolos• 11 years ago

Can you really trust HR to do the right thing?

mtrimpe3• 11 years ago

Indeed; never trust HR to do the right thing. HR will choose the approach they believe minimizes risk to the company.

If they believe kicking you out instead of your harasser is less risky they won't hesitate twice to do so. I can confirm that from personal experience.

If you can afford it get legal advice first ... and then go to HR.

DasIch• 11 years ago

If you can't trust HR to do the right thing or they don't, it's time to leave.

maxlybbert• 11 years ago

HR exists to protect the company. Imagine if you were about to sign a contract and asked to have your lawyer review it; it's obvious that if the company were to say "don't worry, we had our lawyers review it," you would still want your own lawyer.

However, the laws are written to protect employees from abuse, and if they're decent laws, the company should have a strong incentive to do the right thing, and then never give a bad reference when another company asks if they should hire the offender.

tomp8• 11 years ago

In this case, yes. It's in their best interest to protect the company and not the manager; a scandal like this would probably be much more damaging to the company than firing any single executive.

zzleeper• 11 years ago

The problem is that often you might not be entirely sure about what's going on. In her case, the kiss in the cheek might just be cultural confusion (in Spanish-speaking countries we do that even with strangers).

Of course, after the lap thing... I don't even have words... How can you treat other people like that.. you are put in a position of power/responsibility and they use it to degrade others..

wavefunction2• 11 years ago

Well this was in the US, where people do not kiss colleagues on the cheek. I know your intentions are fair in mentioning this cultural practice but that sort of justification also presents a fair amount of minimization of obvious harassment. I mean, do you kiss everyone on the cheek in Spanish-speaking countries or just very close friends?

gotchange4• 11 years ago

You mean a real kiss on the cheek not a symbolic one where people place their cheeks side by side and just make funny sounds resembling a kiss?

Because here we're used to the symbolic ones for close friends and reserve those smooches for intimate or romantic relationships.

switch007• 11 years ago

HR is the company's (i.e. directors'/owners') legal & policy counsel; wouldn't talking to a lawyer be the more sensible option?

GFK_of_xmaspast• 11 years ago

Since when is HR the same as corporate legal?

danso2• 11 years ago

Just for anyone who reads the comments before TFA, the author does escalate this into reporting it to HR:

During the HR investigation that ensued, I remember being shamed by a female colleague who thought I was blowing the situation out of proportion. She thought I was being overly sensitive, and that it was wrong of me to report my manager. That hurt. I thought she would’ve naturally supported me.

Maybe you think she should have gone to HR earlier? Hard to say, but there is no hard and fast rule on this... I mean not just that people disagree on what sexual harassment entails, but it's also not easy to see the signs of sexual harassment. For example, let's say on my first day of work, a co-worker asks if I know of any good pho joints. Am I being asked that because I'm Vietnamese? Or is it because this new co-worker has seen me tweet about how much I like pho (and it's just a coincidence that I'm vietnamese)? Or is it because we're in Northern California where there is known to be a decent quantity of pho joints (for America), and asking about pho is not much different than asking about BBQ if you were in the South?

It's possible that such a question is a symptom of deep-seated racism/stereotypes, and that in a hindsight report, I'd be sure to include it as an anecdote to illustrate what was going on even from the first day. But I'd have to admit that I'd be very reluctant to turn this kind of incident into an HR thing -- at that very moment.

In the OP's case...yeah, if she were getting kissed/propositioned on the first day, that would be an HR thing. But if someone were to note how young she was, or what a cute dress she had on...comments that often but not always signify non-professional behavior...I can see why she wouldn't go to HR on the very first day.

49531• 11 years ago

The sad part is that at a lot of companies doing this will mean your time at the company is coming to a close. I've seen co-workers who complain to HR go from being an important team member to being managed out of the organization. It seems that a lot of the time a corporation will remove the culprit along with the victim to keep themselves safe.

ordbajsare• 11 years ago

In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap... Protect yourself and others. Report it to HR.

The correct response is to punch him in the face, defend your personal space with extreme prejudice.

gilgoomesh• 11 years ago

I assume you're kidding but if you're not: you run the risk of being fired for physical assault, whether or not you're in the right.

In any case, as reported in the article, people in that situation are more likely to be paralysed by shock and doubt. A blunt, self-assured response in the moment is unlikely.

dhimes• 11 years ago

I don't agree, but upvoting because I think it is worth discussing the idea that women get attacked like this (and that's what sexual harassment is) because the men think they can bully the women. Perhaps not a punch in the face, but a clear shove away may go a long way towards making the point.

I am also suspicious of approaching HR first. Perhaps a lawyer has written about how to handle this online, especially what and how to document, how to handle any witnesses, etc., but if not I would hope my wife would talk to a lawyer first. I guarantee that HR knows how to handle the incident, but they are working on behalf of the company. That doesn't mean they are working on behalf of the manager, though, so they can be at least half-trusted (IMHO). But I would still prefer that my wife have her own source of knowledge on this situation.

edraferi3• 11 years ago

Agree. There's a clear escalation path for this kind of thing. First time something weird happens, ignore it as a possible misunderstanding / off day. Second time, make a clear verbal rejection. Third time forward, you're dealing with a pattern of clearly unwanted behavior so everything gets documented in writing and reported to HR. If HR doesn't address the situation in a week or so, bring in the lawyers.

leaveyou2• 11 years ago

What an uplifting story. Sexual harassment is a serious problem affecting women all over the world. I'm glad that more and more people speak up.

exo762• 11 years ago

If you think that women are somehow immune to this behaviour you are very naive. Stereotype of older women superior hitting on young men has not appeared from thin air.

leaveyou2• 11 years ago

From my wife's experience, older women superiors are way too busy making the professional life of younger women a living hell and they don't have much time and energy left to harass young men.

ck2• 11 years ago

In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility, and told that “all men go through an Asian fetish at some time”

holy frack - that's insane - and no way the first time they've said these things in front of other people before with no-one challenging the behavior as unacceptable

easy guide for men: if you wouldn't say it to a friend's daughter, or someone saying it to your daughter, don't say it to any woman you aren't in a personal relationship

eklavya2• 11 years ago

Why does nobody seem to be bothered with the apologize and continue as usual outcome? Shouldn't there have been serious implications for the sexual offender?

mollmerx• 11 years ago

This. I find it surprising that the offender wasn't terminated and incomprehensible that the victim was required to continue reporting to him.

room271• 11 years ago

Yes, for the things she describes her manager should have been fired, not kept on after some kind of apology.

Sir_Cmpwn• 11 years ago

I have to write this comment pretty carefully to avoid vindicating the offender or blaming the victim. It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable (this is not her fault), and perhaps the offender was picking up on signals that weren't there. The situation needed to be fixed, but the behaviour mentioned in the article could have been more flirtatious than forced. A zero tolerance policy is just a way of removing the humanity from the situation. Maybe the events weren't so severe to demand that he lose his job, has charges pressed, etc. I don't think we should be calling for his head. I am surprised that she continued to work under his management, though.

panic• 11 years ago

It doesn't matter if it was "more flirtatious than forced". A manager should not flirt with their reports. Managers are supposed to be responsible for the growth of their employees; making an employee so uncomfortable with you that they run away from you on sight is a spectacular failure to do your job.

nikcub6• 11 years ago

It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was uncomfortable

The default position should be to assume that everybody is uncomfortable with everything unless otherwise stated.

It's like a good firewall policy - default block all and then explicitly allow.

hluska7• 11 years ago

Okay, let me make this clear.

Under absolutely no circumstances is it even remotely appropriate for a manager to flirt with any direct reports. It is always 100% wrong and there is never any room for this type of bullshit.

eklavya2• 11 years ago

The aftermath of the events left her pretty shaken, I don't think any of it was mild (sit on my lap, WTF!!). I have seen people allowed to change teams/managers for much much lesser degrees of uncomfortable. At least in the companies I have worked in, it would pretty much guarantee that the manager was made to leave.

gotchange4• 11 years ago

perhaps the offender was picking up on signals that weren't there.

Who would ask his love interest to sit on his lap at work?

Do you really think that this is appropriate for even lovers in the workplace?

Even if there was something going there between them, it's unprofessional to flirt and fool around while working. Call me old school or what but we have weekends and off-work hours for these types of activities and everyone should make use of them accordingly.

DannoHung• 11 years ago

It was super fucking gross. That said, I get the impression that she didn't immediately think to record evidence of his transgressions. In that case, HR usually will have to split the baby because they are ultimately there to protect the company.

If it was the first time this guy has done something wrong, which is kind of unbelievable, then it's not a horrible result. Maybe he really is just that socially backwards that he needed an HR intervention to learn what everyone fucking should know. But the cynic in most of us is saying that this is a pattern of behavior that was probably repeated in a more covert manner.

jacquesm2• 11 years ago

Absolutely, though I don't think the term 'sexual offender' is appropriate, that is iirc reserved for people that have been convicted of a sexual offense.

bontoJR• 11 years ago

This problem happens in every industry, tourism and hospitality is full of these cases as far as I heard even by people I personally know.

The Silicon Valley situation is more visible for the simple reason that diversity is still a problem, so having so few girls makes this a huge problem and a barrier hard to overcome for women. I feel truly sorry for all the female colleagues having troubles with bosses and colleagues harassing or also bullying them (have you ever heard somebody saying: "she's a girl, let's give her this task b/c is very trivial").

wavefunction2• 11 years ago

girls

You should start by referring to female workers in SV as women.

Shic• 11 years ago

ew em

sonabinu• 11 years ago

How come the manager got away with just an apology?

isnullorempty9• 11 years ago

What happened to the woman in the article was unacceptable _if_ she clearly signaled she wasn't interested. On the other hand some women now think "Why won't that cute guy come hit on me?, is he shy or gay?" No he is worried you will report him for harassment. Forget ever trying to date someone from work it's a minefield (as is dating in general!).

throwaway999888• 11 years ago

It's unacceptable because of the manager-subordinate relation.

And you can't put the burden on women to actively signal that they are not sexually interested in a professional setting. That's at best a large distraction for them, and at worst very draining and emotionally damaging.

isnullorempty9• 11 years ago

I meant if someone show interest not all the time, men can be dumb and are unable to detect subtle hints.

shinigami• 11 years ago

Yes, life must be so hard without being able to date people from work.

isnullorempty9• 11 years ago

Given you spent a large chunk of your waking life at work it's a breeding ground for attractions to be formed same as school, uni etc.

throwaway19245• 11 years ago

I'd like to preface this comment by saying I'm not confident in my opinion, and I'm very open to discussion and to changing my stance.

My understanding is that the manager's actions would likely be considered low level harassment, tipping towards misconduct considering the short duration (1 week) and minimal resolution attempts outside of HR. Definitions are hard for this subject, but my understanding is the phrase escalates with severity from misconduct->harassment->assault.

I agree that the manager was in the wrong, but I worry about a culture that cannot readily distinguish the severity of conduct, and in-turn come up with an appropriate response.

In this scenario, I feel going to HR was appropriate, but I also feel this writing takes an overly hostile tone, instead of one focused on improvement. I'd find this tone appropriate if there were more pushback from HR, or if harassment continued and HR wouldn't help resolve. But as far as I can tell, OP is happy with HRs response.

Perhaps instead we can explore what HR can and should do to prevent self-confidence issues at the conclusion of these investigations? To me, that would be more beneficial than asking others to pursue a path which - all things being similar - results in self-doubt.

mgbmtl• 11 years ago

I understand your point of view, but I feel like we often underestimate the level of harm that some types of misconduct can cause. A workplace should never tolerate any type of harassment (and few workplaces do).

It's not just the act itself, it's also the act in the current historical context (institutional inequality) and work context (workplace power inequality).

Unfortunately the effects on OP are probably much bigger than we expect because of the way we are socialized, our culture, etc. Some might say that it's not the guy's fault that our society is so imbalanced, but I think we should be more conscious about this in general. To prevent the self-confidence issue, we could probably fix our education and general culture, but in the short term we could just not harass women at work. That's a pretty easy short term solution :)

sheraz9• 11 years ago

Office environments today are like minefields. A man never knows when his next step, word, or simple action will be misconstrued as harassment.

Hold a door? Thats harassment.

Wink ;-) in an email or IM? Thats harassment.

Tell an off-color joke? Thats harassment.

Complement female coworkers outfit? Thats harassment.

Stand too close in an elevator or inline at the canteen? Thats harassment.

Getting caught looking looking at a female coworkers boobs? Thats harassment.

The problem is that at the end of the day it is all up to how that female employee "feels." If she is especially sensitive, then everyone around her has to walk on eggshells.

Why can't anyone have a sense of humor about any of this?

I think I'm going to watch 9 to 5 with Dolly Parton tonight, just to remember a time when people had a sense of humor about dealing with toxic office culture.

smackfu• 11 years ago

If you think her actual claims are not harassment, then argue that.

sheraz9• 11 years ago

I think the first problem is that harassment is a loaded term. It implies more than what actually happened.

Harassment, to me, is what bill collectors and bullys do. They call you repeatedly, they post about you on social media. They follow you home.

Why not call it this -- her boss is an asshole, and she didn't call him out on it.

hluska7• 11 years ago

Come on, that is bullshit. Simply, don't go out of your way to be an asshole. Genuine compliments are fine. Leering is wrong. Sexually suggestive comments or winks in emails are wrong. Don't treat anyone as a lesser form of life. This is so fucking simple and it makes for a better work environment for all.

isnullorempty9• 11 years ago

So what are you supposed to do if you are attracted to someone at work, never make a move? Women need to be more forgiving and take it as a compliment, unless someone continues after a clear rejection (which is the definition of harassment).

sheraz9• 11 years ago

No it is not bullshit.

This whole topic is filled with loaded words like "harassment" and "victim."

Furthermore, workplace harassment laws are tipped in the females favor. If she even perceives something, then it happened.

If you think that sending a wink to someone is treating them as a lower life form, then I don't think there is much I can say...

bigethan• 11 years ago

s/A man/Oblivious Sheraz/

pc865• 11 years ago

Hold a door?

I don't think holding a door has ever been seriously considered harassment. Yes, some people do get upset by it.

Wink ;-) in an email or IM?

If you need emoticons in professional correspondence you should probably rethink what you're trying to say. I also don't think an emoticon has ever been considered harassment.

Tell an off-color joke?

A. What's your definition of off-color?

B. Unless you're a comedian, you probably shouldn't be telling racist/sexist/offensive jokes at work anyway.

Complement female coworkers outfit?

Unless you're working in fashion I don't think you have any reason to do this, especially if it's not someone you wouldn't consider a friend. Here's a good rule: If you don't have a "chat on the weekends" type of relationship with someone, you probably shouldn't be commenting on their personal appearance at work.

Stand too close in an elevator or inline at the canteen?

I think everyone can imagine that this has been done intentionally to make someone uncomfortable, especially in an elevator or in line.

Getting caught looking at a female coworkers boobs?

Of course it's harassment, Jesus.

Why can't anyone have a sense of humor about any of this?

I know, right?! I mean, I was just standing half an inch away from you in an empty elevator, commenting on how you were dressed and staring at your chest. Have a sense of humor about it!

sheraz9• 11 years ago

...I think we have butted heads in other threads... ;-)

I get emojis from our legal and marketing teams all the time. It is a part of office culture in many / most places I would imagine.

Here is my off-color joke:

Q. How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

A. One. AND THATS NOT FUNNY!

Yes, I can complement anyone I like. I don't need to have a pre-existing relationship to do so.

Here is the problem -- there are so many unintentional actions that occur. I might be in a hurry and reach across someone in the canteen. Rude? Perhaps. Harassment, nope.

orbat• 11 years ago

Do you, by any chance, often use the word "SJW" and not in an ironic way?

yodsanklai• 11 years ago

Is the term "sexual harassement" appropriate here?

It'd be interesting to hear the manager point of view on this issue. We have only one side of the story here. Maybe the manager genuinely thought this was a case of mutual flirting there.

Or flirting in the workplace = sexual harassment?

EDIT: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sexual+harassm...

"A key part of the definition is the use of the word unwelcome. Unwelcome or uninvited conduct or communication of a sexual nature is prohibited; welcome or invited actions or words are not unlawful."

"The courts have generally concluded that a victim need not say or do a particular thing to indicate unwelcomeness. Instead, a court will review all of the circumstances to determine whether it was reasonably clear to the harasser that the conduct was unwelcome. "

thedz7• 11 years ago

General rule of thumb is that a manager should never flirt or make advances to his direct reports, because the power imbalance and potential for confusion there is just too great.

Even if it was mutual, HR would probably have moved either her or him to a different team if their relationship had progressed.

zupreme2• 11 years ago

I'm not so sure about this one.

I think sexual harassment and direct flirtation can become confused depending on the perspective of the recipient.

Men have been making advances toward women throughout history and, perhaps to a lesser extent, women do the same toward men.

Far more workplace flings happen than any company (and even many employees) will admit and it often starts with one party or the other making their desires known to the other party. I've also been part of and present for many very graphic conversations in the workplace involving both sexes and none of these, to my knowledge, were never seen as harassment or reported as such.

In reading the linked article the one thing I don't see is where she told the manager "No. I'm not interested. Leave me alone." Perhaps if she had simply been as direct with him as he was being with her, the entire HR fiasco could have been avoided.

It's telling that the female colleague felt that she was overreacting. At no point in the article does she mention the manager touching her inappropriately, or saying anything to imply that her job or compensation depended on her accepting his advances.

This honestly sounds like he was a guy who got attracted to a colleague, made steadily increasing verbal advances (which were not rebuffed), and then got blindsided by HR.

I'm sure this won't be a popular view here but I think it's valid.

Edit: Replaced "HR Worker" with "Colleague". As some responders pointed out it was not the HR person who told her she was overreacting (thanks for the corrections).

thedz7• 11 years ago

It's telling that the female HR person felt that she was overreacting. At no point in the article does she mention the manager touching her inappropriately, or saying anything to imply that her job or compensation depended on her accepting his advances.

It was a female colleague, not HR. According to the article, HR was fully behind her, as they should be.

This honestly sounds like he was a guy who got attracted to a colleague, made steadily increasing verbal advances (which were not rebuffed), and then got blindsided by HR.

Not just a colleague, a report. This is what's important. HR would have frowned on a manager making advances on his reports, if nothing else. Especially advances on a new report during her first week.

spoiler• 11 years ago

My friend was in the same position about a year ago, and she told her boss (directly, and in private conversation) that she's not interested, after he didn't interpret a few other subtle hints. She still works there.

Furthermore, she the boss and some other colleagues were cracking jokes about it during a team building event that I was invited to.

Edit: I realise this is anecdotal, but it feels to me like the author of the blog post immediately assumed she's a victim and panicked. Maybe the manager should've been more observant, but pointing fingers is useless without knowing what really happened. We only have her account of the story, which is probably distorted by the discomfort she experienced. This is not to say her discomfort shouldn't be taken into account, and yes I agree that HR should've sided with her, but I don't believe he should've been seriously sanctioned either.

danso2• 11 years ago

You really need to re-read the article. The female HR person did not feel she was "overreacting":

During the HR investigation that ensued, I remember being shamed by a female colleague who thought I was blowing the situation out of proportion. She thought I was being overly sensitive, and that it was wrong of me to report my manager. That hurt. I thought she would’ve naturally supported me.

While there is no explicit mention by the author of her saying, "I told him to back off", there's also nothing to imply that she accepted her manager's advances: i.e. that she went to dinner with him alone, or actually sat on his lap.

Reporting to HR is not a "fiasco". It is always difficult -- for the reasons the author states -- to deal with advances by a superior. Not just because of fears of losing her job, but also of self-doubt about hurting the company. Pushing back against him beyond not sitting on his lap leads to fear of retribution. HR is as close to a third-party as she can get for this, and the main question is how it could have been headed off earlier.

Jean-Philipe2• 11 years ago

No, your view is not valid. Assuming you actually read the article, you probably didn't read this part:

"In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life and virility, and told that “all men go through an Asian fetish at some time,” among other wildly discomfiting, work-inappropriate things. Then I was asked to dinner alone."

That racist comment alone is reason enough to get the manager fired right away, let alone the rest of that list.

And no, she doesn't need to say "No. I'm not interested. Leave me alone." She doesn't even have to say that.

Don't even start using "throughout history" as a justification for anything. A lot of bad things happened throughout history.

zupreme2• 11 years ago

Help me understand how it's not appropriate to directly tell someone who is making it obvious that they are attracted to you that you aren't interested. If you make it known that you aren't interested and the person continues. Then it becomes harassment.

So I refute your position. We all have to set boundaries in our relationships and the author of the article is no exception.

mercer• 11 years ago

Your view is not entirely unreasonable in my mind, insofar that we don't know the actual details of what happened. For all we know the guy thought she was flirting back at him and feels terribly guilty about misreading the situation (although I personally doubt it). I've seen (and experienced, but thankfully not like this) countless men and women make these types of mistakes. Communication is difficult, and flirting all the more.

However, and in my opinion it's a very important however, I see two reasons why despite our distance to the situation, we can solidly agree that the manager was out of line:

1. He's a manager. Power is a tricky thing. If you're in a position of power, you need to wield it with responsibility. If it means never having romantic/sexual/flirty interactions with a subordinate, so be it. It's just too risky. My father is a church leader and he never meets women one-on-one, both for his and her 'protection', so to speak.

2. It's a man's world. Whether we like it or not, we live in a society where the power dynamics favor men. That also requires some responsibility, as even just superior physical strength unbalances things by default. When I'm walking down a street, I often try to be aware of not 'following' a women if we happen to be going in the same direction (especially if it's a darker or less safe area of town). I do this not because I have to do so, but because I know how unsettling (or scary and threatening) it can to feel like someone is following you, both from stories of my female friends, and from my own (undoubtedly less-scary) experience as a, uh, 'small, skinny boy'.

Now there are not always rules or laws that demand all this of a person, but it strikes me as basic decency to regularly reflect on what 'power' you might have, overt or otherwise, and how this might affect others.

And if someone who is clearly a subordinate feels threatened, then that makes perfect sense. Part of your job as the one in power is to wield it responsibly. That includes the responsibility to make sure there are no 'misunderstandings'.

auggierose• 11 years ago

She admits in that piece that she shouldn't have laughed at jokes that made her uncomfortable. So I suggest people/women keep themselves out of situations like this by being honest and upfront with their colleagues in the first place. If that doesn't work, go to HR. Simple as that.

thedz7• 11 years ago

1. There's a lot of typical victim blaming, downplaying, and "why didn't she just ask him to stop" comments on this submission, and it saddens me. Many of the reactions here are a large part why so many women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in tech.

2. This is partially why HR exists. HR isn't just there to handle payroll. More people should do this, rather than let things fester or ignore things that should be reported.

y04nn2• 11 years ago

Women should stand up and stop calling themselves victims.

isnullorempty9• 11 years ago

A lot of time sexual harassment == someone i'm not attracted to flirting with me. If it was a 6 foot handsome guy then it would be highlight of the week.

bitL2• 11 years ago

As somebody that has endured the same the other way round - being hit on by many (even married) female colleagues, HR girls, having a female manager attempting to invite me to her room in the hotel, girls repeatedly stalking me at my apartment, e.g. after I performed on a piano at a party, even just meeting random girls that would dump their boyfriends on the spot, completely shaking with excitement (me and her BF just look at each other with disbelief: "Is this really happening?"), dozens of girls telling me I am their "Mr.Perfect" etc. I can relate to her plight. However, she at least has some recourse; if I wrote a blog about my experiences I'd become a laughing stock of the Internet. Sometimes I think redpillers/AFBB got something right, which is shaking me to the core... There are some very dark areas of both male and female sexuality...

qb455• 11 years ago

if I wrote a blog about my experiences I'd become a laughing stock of the Internet

So write a blog post on what lead you to such abundance :)

bitL2• 11 years ago

Win everything you can as a kid whether it is sports or scientific competitions, then decide it's not worth it (winner is the lonely one), grow in an environment where girls are looking like supermodels so you aren't intimidated by their looks and can talk to them normally and just don't care that much about them, learn as many arts as you can, like playing an instrument, how to use chiaroscuro, how to make pro photography, direct movies, make computer games and cool graphics, run your own businesses, be amongst top students of your universities, be very tall, have a nice personality with very firm boundaries, go deep into conversations with girls then eject to avoid boredom on both sides, be surprising, don't be needy, nerdy, geeky, abrasive or inept, have a sister that tries to break your frame since you were child but was never successful, have a vision you follow and push for a better world, learn at least 6 foreign languages, travel around the world, be fit, be able to tell off declining people with perceived power over you when they behave like retards in front of everyone etc. Have fun! :-P

fred_is_fred• 11 years ago

HR ONLY EXISTS TO PROTECT THE COMPANY. They are not there for you or to support you or to even support the truth. They will almost always without fail support the manager over the IC. I feel like we shouldn't let people graduate college until they know this. It sucks, but it's the truth.

voidr2• 11 years ago

In hindsight and with more experience, I now can say, “Yes, I shouldn’t have tolerated even a little bit of misogyny or mistreatment. I should’ve immediately given him feedback that it made me feel extremely uncomfortable.” But regardless of my own reactions, the fact remains that sexual harassment should never have happened in the first place.

Women don't(in some cases: don't want) to realise that they can send out misleading signals, which itself would not be an issue if they would clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate.

Men might do something physical without any bad intentions and women might interpret them otherwise.

Here is how I see it:

If someone violates your intimate space, send a subtle signal that it's not okay: move away, turn away or do a grumpy cat impression.

If the person does not understand the subtle signal, use words.

If words fail, contact the authorities.

I'd wish we could move away from the one dimensional "males in tech are sexist" angle onto something more scientific. However, judging by the tile of the post, we are galaxies away from that.

bobwaycott3• 11 years ago

Women don't(in some cases: don't want) to realise that they can send out misleading signals, which itself would not be an issue if they would clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate.

Sigh. This is nonsense.

Men don't, or don't want to, realize they frequently misinterpret so-called "signals", or don't pay attention to them at all. There's a sad truth that women actually send signals men completely miss, while men actually pick up signals that were never sent.

A woman should never have to expend extra effort to clarify their limits when a man does something inappropriate. An easy way to guarantee this is to constantly be mindful of your actions and never do anything inappropriate.

General rule of thumb as a man: treat physical interactions with women in the workplace the same way you do other men in the workplace--inherently non-sexual. Second rule of thumb: all that sexual conversation you might be used to having with other men--don't do it with women.

It's for this reason that expecting the victim of unwanted behaviors to send subtle signals first is pretty silly. If we're going to suggest anything, let's not go with something subtle and ambiguous that is likely to be misunderstood and misinterpreted by the person who is already behaving inappropriately. Instead, let's opt for expecting something like this:

That's fucking offensive. Don't ever fucking do that again. This is your only warning.

Pretty clear. Straight to the point. Pony up an apology, or admit that you're being a lecherous fuck.

Don't feel comfortable being direct? Go directly to HR.

Don't have HR? Give that "fuck off" directive a go. Worst case outcome? You realize this isn't the place for you and move on.

---

Men might do something physical without any bad intentions and women might interpret them otherwise.

Bullshit. Here are examples of "something physical without any bad intentions" that are pretty impossible for women to misinterpret:

- high fives

- fist bumps

- shaking hands

- a pat/slap on the upper back or shoulders to say good job

- a light punch/slap to the arm in an obviously playful way (probably only best with well-known company that already trusts you)

Oh, and if you actually are paying attention and notice a woman recoil in any way from these types of interactions: make a mental note to not do that again. There's probably something in her past experiences that makes her uncomfortable with this, and it really doesn't put you out at all to remain mindful of that as you interact with her in the workplace.

Here are examples of "something physical" that cannot hide behind "no bad intentions":

- touching a woman anywhere, in any way, not covered above

- kissing a woman anywhere, in any way

- asking a woman to sit on your lap

- positioning yourself in such a way next to a woman that you intentionally make physical contact of an intimate sort

Why? Because women can fucking tell when you're making an advance. And men cannot hide behind a silly schoolboy's defense of "mixed signals".

After almost 35 years of life as a heterosexual man who doesn't have much trouble with women, here are a few general rules and suggestions on how to handle interactions with women to ensure you don't ever "misread" signals. I'll give them in a half-assed order of importance.

General rules:

1. Treat every woman with absolute respect as a person, not as a sex object, every time.

2. Don't interpret or estimate your probability-of-fucking.

3. Trust that women don't really ever play "hard to get". Ever.

4. Trust that women will make it very clear when they're inviting you to increase physical intimacy.

5. Understand that just because a woman smiles or is nice/polite/kind/open, doesn't mean she is saying, "I want to fuck you."

6. If in doubt, ask don't act.

General suggestions:

1. Allow a woman to set the tone of physical intimacy. Reply in like kind.

It's really, really, really easy to tell if a woman is physically/sexually/romantically interested in you as an adult. She will typically do more than simply "send signals". If a woman trusts you enough to touch you on the arm, it's probably okay to touch her arm. That doesn't mean it's okay to rub her arm. If she touches you on the leg, it's probably okay to touch her on the leg. But feel free to ask, cos there's no harm in that. She might be doing it subconsciously, and you'll be able to alert her to this without groping her leg and making her feel assaulted. If she's rubbing your arms and legs, that's a pretty unmistakable indication that she's feeling safe, trusting, and probably okay with you returning the same level of physical touch. But that doesn't mean you should grab her breasts and jam your tongue into her mouth.

At the club on the dance floor? Don't walk up and start grinding some woman with your junk. If the lady wants to grind, she'll make the move. And then she might want to go do the same on some other guy. C'est la vie. Why? Because she's often just out to have a good time, not find someone to go home with. If she is looking for someone to go home with, follow the directives above and you'll be certain to never find yourself the perpetrator of a sexual assault or harassing behavior.

2. Just because you like feeling like a piece of meat, doesn't mean she does.

I have experienced, on more than a few occasions, a relatively unknown female coworker telling me I have a nice ass, or some other such physical attribute. Cool. Flattering. My response: laugh it off. I don't turn around and say, "Well, your ass is damn fine, too." Accept the compliment. For whatever reason, some women think it's okay to do that. And they can be the same women who would be offended if you did it to them. Big deal. That's how it is. They know when they're attractive, because every fucking dude in the world tells them so. Don't ever be that guy--unless you're actually in a relationship with her; then, by all means, tell her all the time. Just steer clear of making comments to a woman in the workplace about her appearance. 100% guaranteed success rate there.

3. Physical intimacy doesn't belong in the workplace.

This one's pretty damn easy. Even when I've been in a serious relationship with a coworker, we never brought that into the workplace. There's no need to kiss in the office. Or have my girlfriend sit on my lap. Or touch her in an intimate spot. It's the fucking workplace. Treat it as such. All the more fun when you get home later. It can wait.

---

I seriously cannot believe we're still having this conversation in 2016.

voidr2• 11 years ago

Men don't, or don't want to, realize they frequently misinterpret so-called "signals", or don't pay attention to them at all. There's a sad truth that women actually send signals men completely miss,

The sad truth, is that (some) men are bad at receiving signals and (some) women are bad at sending them.

while men actually pick up signals that were never sent.

Some women(and men) subconsciously send out signals that can be interpreted as an invitation, especially if we are talking about people from different cultures.

After almost 35 years of life as a heterosexual man who doesn't have much trouble with women, here are a few general rules and suggestions on how to handle interactions with women to ensure you don't ever "misread" signals. I'll give them in a half-assed order of importance.

Some people actually do have a problem with reading other people. There are a lot of them in tech.

I seriously cannot believe we're still having this conversation in 2016.

Society is moving constantly and there are problems that will just never go away, because it's just hardwired to our monkey brain.

I am in no way excusing sexism and harassment, however I see that reality is more complicated than "men evil, women good".

If we go down the path of stigmatizing men and come up with more severe laws to punish them, the divide that caused this mess will only get bigger.

What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google

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