My lazy American students

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/12/21/my_lazy_american_students/

by tokenadult • 17 years ago

68 64 17 years ago

zck• 17 years ago

This seems partially explained by selection bias -- the slackers from "India, China, and Latin America" don't come to America for college at the same rates as American slackers do. However, this doesn't explain the actual statistics she gives.

ighost• 17 years ago

Yeah, if the validity of your visa hinges on passing all of your classes, you will do what it takes to pass those classes, language barrier or no.

lmkg2• 17 years ago

More to the point, the only ones who got the visa in the first place are the ones who already were top performers.

lurkinggrue• 17 years ago

Would be nice if we could get a slacker statistic like percentage of slackers by country.

mreid• 17 years ago

Yeah. I wish someone else would do that.

randliu3• 17 years ago

Also keep in mind that the author teaches at Babson, which is a private college devoted entirely to business administration students.

telemachos5• 17 years ago

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how I should "keep this in mind." She teaches at a college which focuses on business. How does this explain the difference she sees between her American students and her international students? (I'm not trying to be difficult - though I'm told it comes natural to me. I just don't see your point.)

potatolicious• 17 years ago

I grew up in Taiwan, so I think I can shed some light on this. IMHO "the average" Taiwanese student will work harder than the average American student, but not by a supremely gross margin as this article would imply.

The bottom-barrel students never end up in American colleges, after all.

The chief difference is cultural - in Asia intellectualism is celebrated and demanded. Parents don't push their kids to football, they push them to academic achievement. Not being able to make it into college isn't worn as a badge of honor, it's downright shameful. I have personally known people who've shipped their kids away from home to some backwater third-rate academy, just so they can hide the fact that the kid couldn't get into any school locally.

Beyond parental pressure, peer pressure also largely pushes people to academic achievement. Having high marks won't get you beat up - in fact it commands respect (within reason). Having poor marks likewise isn't cool like it is here, but is similarly embarrassing.

Keep in mind though, that this has some consequences that academics who opine about the lack of American work ethic consistently fail to mention:

- Appreciation and participation in the arts, both as a college study, and as extracurriculars, is ridiculously low. People who study the humanities are looked down upon, I even know one guy who got disowned for it.

- Social integration takes a backseat, often to disastrous results later. In Taiwan is it not irregular for a middle school child (age 12 or so) to be at some form of school for 14 hours a day. There's literally only spare time to eat and sleep (and sometimes not even). Socialization is minimal, and add this onto the culture of living with your parents well into your 20s, it produces some seriously socially inept people.

Japan is already dealing with these consequences - look up "hikkikomori" if you're interested.

carbocation2• 17 years ago

The key here is that the average foreign student who came to America for college has already demonstrated a tremendous commitment to education. The average American student at any college, particularly one that is not world-renowned, does not harbor this extraordinary signal. Expectations with regards to work ethic should be calibrated accordingly.

chancho• 17 years ago

Thanks for sharing your account of student life in Taiwan. It's always nice to hear firsthand about life in other cultures so that we don't hang onto our misconceptions. On that note, let me suggest that your caricature of American student life is a little cartoonish. Yeah it's like that in a lot of schools, but if your son or daughter goes to one of those schools then you live in a shitty neighborhood and should move. You're probably right about the means, but the variance is much higher in the US and its very possible to find an academic environment where a student can excel without fear of getting beat up. (Also, the bit about not making it into college being worn as a "badge of honor" is just silly. Why would they even apply?) FWIW I went to public school in Northern California (the central valley even) and I definitely got positive feedback from my peers for doing well in school, because my peers also took advanced classes. Apart from schools with gang problems, I would characterize it like this: In the US it's your choice whether or not you want to succeed academically. Your peers generally don't care because there are a myriad of other reasons to like or dislike you (looks, sense of humor, clique membership, etc.) So yeah there is not the social pressure to succeed, but for the most part there is no negative pressure preventing success (again, except in very troubled schools.)

joe_the_user2• 17 years ago

Great post, I'd also mention...

It take a certain to 'laziness' to solve a problem elegantly rather than through grinding effort.

This kind of laziness, the kind of laziness that great programmers laud, can require a bit of effort. It's the kind of effort mathematicians go through when they look at problem for five minutes before saying "it's trivial".

The America that built Silicone Valley sometimes had this right balance between effort and "laziness". Present America certainly seems to have taken a wrong turn.

est• 17 years ago

Another fact you forgot to mention is probably asceticism in east-asian culture. This has some serious damage to social skills, too.

xiaoma• 17 years ago

I agree that the work ethic is higher here and that smarts are cool. However, I don't really agree about appreciation for the arts. I hear children practicing the piano or violin every day here in Taiwan and there's also a shop or two for classical instruments and sheet music near most elementary schools in Taipei. Children who can't draw also seem to be quite a bit more common in America than here.

Yes on the social integration, though. People don't really have the time for much socializing until college.

yesimahuman3• 17 years ago

One thing I still can't understand is how so many people are okay asking for an extension on something. I can't believe how many of my peers ask for extensions on papers and programming assignments. It's unreal. School might not be as high a priority as my startup right now, but I never turn in anything late. I think tardiness is the worst kind of habit to have.

lmkg2• 17 years ago

At my college, the professors explicitly told us to always ask for extensions if we needed it, provided it was a few days to a week in advance. It is a form of time management to know ahead of time that you have 60 hours worth of work due in the next 48 hours, and talking to the professor builds communication skills and the good habit of giving feedback to your superiors.

If you're talking about asking for an extension 10 minutes before the deadline (or 10 minutes after), that's a whole different kettle of fish.

yesimahuman3• 17 years ago

I can understand that. What bothers me though is the attitude that it is okay to ask for extensions on a regular basis.

Perhaps this has more to do with the role college plays in American society. I believe that college has become more of a high school extension than anything, and so maybe it is wrong to blame students who treat it as such. I doubt they would be slacking off in grad school (but I can't be sure!)

Oompa• 17 years ago

I don't see this that often at Georgia Tech. The one class where I know someone who asked for extensions, extensions were almost always granted, however, you took a 30% grade deduction for an extra day.

moron4hire2• 17 years ago

why not? In the real world, just because you happen to miss a deadline doesn't mean the work doesn't still have to be finished.

tolenka2• 17 years ago

Outside of school, deadlines are usually based on project estimates, and as long as you provide sufficient notice, it's often possible to adjust the schedule and dependent activities to fit the actual time required to complete task(s). If it's not possible, then business decisions have to be made regarding what tasks can be abandoned or modified to meet the hard deadlines -- regardless of how the business adapts, you're better off bringing up a scheduling issue before it becomes critical.

Given that deadlines in education are more or less entirely arbitrary, I don't see the harm in extending them within reason, and providing students with the opportunity to successfully complete their tasks.

As for tardiness -- it happens. If someone consistently fails to meet our estimates, but delivers a sufficient degree of value within a reasonable amount of time, then I'll simply learn to incorporate their individual turn-around time in my estimates.

yesimahuman3• 17 years ago

I understand that. However, these employees want to get the work done on time, and see it as important, but couldn't get it done in the time estimate. The attitude I notice is more of an indifference to the deadline.

zaidf3• 17 years ago

To offer a contrarian view, I have two friends from India this semester who got caught for plagiarizing in their English class. This is just this semester.

I won't make any big judgement calls about international students based on observing my few friends. But hey, it does make me believe that international students are less aware of the consequences of things like plagiarizing. I think they are a little behind on it. For American students, we went through the "dumb phase" of plagiarizing in 6th grade when I remember 90% of my class using the same one source for an assignment forcing the teacher to give an hour long lecture on plagiarizing. She also canceled that assignment. International students, unfortunately, don't seem to have gotten that lesson before coming here. Really unfair for them -- but a win for American education(rare as that may be).

w00pla• 17 years ago

Isn't the stereotype that India is more "lazy" than China?

deepakjois• 17 years ago

Based on your experience of two friends from India, you started believing that international students are less aware of the consequences of plagiarizing. Your point is nonsensical on so many levels.

First, since when did 'two friends from India' begin reflecting the attitudes of millions of students all over the world (international), only a fraction of which end up in the US in the first place.

Second, how can you conclude that they were unaware of the consequences of plagiarizing. Maybe they were aware of the consequences, but decided to take a chance anyway.

It seems to be that you are subtly implying that the American education system inculcates some sense of ethics (discouraging things like plagiarism) in the students, which for some inexplicable reason the education system of these international students doesn't. That IMHO is bigoted.

zaidf3• 17 years ago

This was a tongue-in-cheek response to the original article which seems to make sweeping generalizations about American students from the experiences of one professor.

Exactly. The same could be argued about the original author's suggestion that the American education system in-builds laziness while the international system of millions of students does not.

In reality, I wouldn't call it ethics--far from that! American students don't plagiarize (as much) because they know they will get caught and face insane consequences. Indian students(my friends) don't know the perceived seriousness of it so they fail a class they had a 96 in because they plagiarized the final paper. I really pity my friend more than blame him.

Btw, my bias/generalizations are quickly repudiated and doesn't get published in a widely distributed paper for good reasons. The original author gets to make a huge splash. That's the problem.

Also, I split my K-12 education between India and U.S so I have experienced both sides of the education system.

tensor• 17 years ago

While I agree with your sentiments on a lack of proper data, there is another hypothesis for foreign students, perhaps having a higher rate of cheating. One that is not bigoted at all, and applies equally well to a subset of north american students.

Some cultures, India, China, perhaps others, currently place immense value on education. This brings with it immense pressure. While that can lead to a good work ethic, perhaps the immense pressure can also lead to a higher likelihood of cheating. It's not that these students underestimate the risk of getting caught, but more that they may be more afraid of the reaction of their family or peers back home if they fail.

Getting good grades is not exclusively a result of hard work. Often it can be genuinely challenging. For some international students, failing can mean a loss of scholar ship and thus having to leave back home. For students in China, for example, this may mean a loss of freedom, and certainly a big loss of social rank back home.

North American students studying here may occasionally have a lot of pressure from home, but they never risk being denied citizenship, or being relegated to low paying jobs for the rest of their life with no chance of improving.

In some graduate programs, this fact is occasionally taken advantage of by unethical professors, who can get away with treating their international students poorly.

krschultz• 17 years ago

Isn't that his point? That making gross generalizations off a small sample size is ridiculous? That's what I got out of it anyway.

perokreco2• 17 years ago

Plagiarizing and cheating are fairly normal and culturally accepted in some parts of the world. For example, if caught cheating in a college in Bosnia, the absolutely worst thing that could happen is that you're not allowed to take that class for 6 months, but it is more likely they would just kick you out and made you retake it.

michaelcampbell• 17 years ago

> Of course, it would be wrong to suggest that all American students are the same.

...

> Success is all about time management, and in a globalizing economy, Americans’ inability to stay focused and work hard could prove to be a serious problem.

<sigh>

telemachos5• 17 years ago

And you know what's really sad about how poorly argued the editorial is? The author is a teacher of Rhetoric and History and based on her description of her students, I bet she teaches freshman composition or the like. (If that doesn't ring any bells, many colleges require incoming students - all or nearly all - to take a semester or a year of critical reading and writing courses in their first year. It's basically remedial education by another name.)

tokenadult• 17 years ago

My favorite comment about this same article elsewhere in cyberspace: "I don't know whether to say if she's bad at rhetoric because her argument is so poor or if she's good at rhetoric because she got printed in a major newspaper."

telemachos5• 17 years ago

Long story alert; bear with me. I got my hair cut today, and as usual they had the tv on. There was a game where contestants were asked questions such as (actual question from the show), What color is a banana? (The contestants look to be 20s to me, but I'm old, so who knows.)

Contestants were dropping like flies. Here's what they couldn't answer: (1) What is H20? (answer given, with a quizzical tone, "Blackjack? 21?"), (2) Who is the current Vice President? and (3) In what state is New Orleans located?

The winner had to answer a final question. It was "Who was the second President of the United States?" She couldn't answer it.

The owner of the shop is a recent (last 10 years) immigrant from a former Soviet Block country (can't remember which one). He says laughing, "God bless American education." (Full disclosure: I am a high school teacher. I just bite my tongue.)

The punch line: all three win prizes. Don't believe me? This is why I love the internet in 2009. I have the video: http://ellen.warnerbros.com/videos/?autoplay=false&media...

What does all this prove? Nothing. Just like that editorial. The problem with that article, like most of the articles of that genre, is that it's entirely anecdotal. (The author cites some statistics about missing basic knowledge, but it's a red herring. Basic knowledge is irrelevant to her argument which has to do with effort and work ethic.)

I've come to believe that this is just one of those things. Teachers complain about their students - a lot. Imagine that. No newspaper with a brain on their staff should accept an editorial (on this topic) from a teacher immediately after the end of term - ever.

mtts• 17 years ago

Nice. Now there's this. I went from an American high school to a Dutch university (admittedly a decade and a half ago, but still) and was shocked to discover that Dutch students as a matter of principle refuse to put in any effort that will push them beyond the barest minimum above a passing grade whereas the Americans I was used to at least tried to shoot for, say, a C, and if they were especially ambitious, a B or even a B+.

(that said, at the "American high school" I went to there were also a large number of Indian, Taiwanese and Korean kids and, like the article suggests, they made it a matter of principle to never receive less than an A+ in any course they took - although, that said, they rarely enrolled in courses where their chances of receiving such grades were in peril: very few Taiwanese and Koreans took history or English literature, for example)

evannyx• 17 years ago

Completely agree. I moved from an American university to a Dutch one. Grades in the Netherlands are out of 10 (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_grading_in_the_Netherl...); Nobody bothers to take more than a 6, most end up with a 5.5.

I get weird looks when I tell classmates I'm aiming for a 9 or a 10 (almost equivalent to an A or A+ in US universities)

edw519• 17 years ago

This article was entirely alien to me. Why should I care about the work of people who don't even care about it themselves?

Then I thought I'd recast the situation into a more familiar setting. Apologies to OP. Make sure you read her version first. Does my version seem any stranger to you?

It was the kind of pitch I hate.

"I’ll do better," my software vendor told me, leaning forward in his chair. "I know I’ve gotten behind this phase, but I’m going to turn things around. Would it be OK if I finished all your uncompleted requirements by Monday?"

I sat silent for a moment. "Yes. But it’s important that you catch up completely this weekend, so that you’re not just perpetually behind."

A few weeks later, I would conduct a nearly identical conversation with two other vendors. And, again, there would be no tangible result: No make-up software. No change in effort. No improvement in time management.

By the time entrepreneurs are in the marketplace, habits can be tough to change. If you’re used to playing video games like "Modern Warfare" or "Halo" all night, how do you fit in four hours of customer revisions? Or rest up for a demo?

Building start-ups in this market, especially one with a large international population, has given me a stark - and unwelcome - illustration of how Americans’ work ethic often pales in comparison with their peers from overseas.

My failing entrepreneurs this semester are almost exclusively American, while my entrepreneurs from India, China, and Latin America have - despite language barriers - generally written solid software, excelled on prototypes, and become valuable business partners.

One woman from Shanghai became a fixture at Super Happy Dev House, embraced our coworking center, and incessantly e-mailed me questions about her evolving website. Her javascript is still mediocre: she frequently puts ";" everywhere (as in "x = y;y = z;z = a;") and confuses global variables with local variables. But that didn’t stop her from doing rewrite after rewrite, tirelessly trying to improve both syntax and performance.

Chinese entrepreneurs have consistently impressed me with their work ethic, though I have seen similar habits in entrepreneurs from India, Thailand, Brazil, and Venezuela. Often, they’ve done little server-side coding in their home companies, and they frequently struggle to understand my specifications. But their respect for customers - and for business itself - is palpable. The entrepreneurs listen intently to everything I say, whether on-line or at code reviews, and try to engage in the process.

Too many 18-year-old American entrepreneurs, meanwhile, text one another under their workstations (certain they are sly enough to go unnoticed), check e-mail, decline to take notes, and appear tired and disengaged.

Of course, it would be wrong to suggest that all American entrepreneurs are the same. I’ve engaged many who were hardworking, talented, and deeply impressive. They listened intently, engaged customer dialogues, and never shied away from code rewrites. At their best, American entrepreneurs marry knowledge and innovation, resulting in some astoundingly creative web apps.

But creativity without knowledge - a common phenomenon - is just not enough.

Too many American entrepreneurs simply lack the basics. In 2002, an O'Reilly survey found that most 18- to 24-year-olds could not find regular expressions, data base access, or sorting algorithms in a PDF document, ranking them behind counterparts in Sweden, Great Britain, Canada, Italy, Japan, France, and Germany. And in 2007 the American Institutes for Research reported that eighth graders in even our best-performing states - like Massachusetts - scored below peers in Singapore, South Korea, and Japan, while entrepreneurs in our worst-performing states - like Mississippi - were on par with eighth graders in Slovakia, Romania, and Russia.

We’ve got a knowledge gap, spurred by a work-ethic gap.

Which brings me to another code-challenged entrepreneur, who once sprinted across the office to talk to me.

"I’m really sorry I missed your targets," he said. "Do you have time to talk?"

"I have a meeting in a couple of minutes," I said. "But you can walk with me."

"OK," he said. "I really enjoy your challenge, and I think I can do better. How can I improve my site?"

I looked at him sideways. "Well, you might start with writing some code."

"Yeah," he grinned, looking at his shoes. "Sorry about that. There’s always stuff going on in my office late in the day. I have to learn to be better about time management."

Of course, he had it exactly right. Success is all about time management, and in a globalizing economy, Americans’ inability to stay focused and work hard could prove to be a serious problem.

Nowhere, sadly, is this clearer than in the marketplace.

moron4hire2• 17 years ago

actually, that doesn't sound too absurd

dinkumthinkum• 17 years ago

I'm not sure what your point is.

timtadh• 17 years ago

Maybe not complete bullshit but an exaggeration in my opinion. Just because a student comes from China or another India or wherever does not necessarily mean they are amazing workers.

For instance one semester I was lab partners in an electronics lab with a Chinese student. Initially he did good work but as the semester continued he did less and less, until the second to last lab where he did none at all. Since I worked straight through the night on the lab, I let the lab director know that my partner had done very little work on the lab, he spoke to my partner and my partner put in more effort on the final lab.

I give this anecdote merely to point out that not every Chinese student is perfect, in the same way that not every American student is lazy. In my opinion there are many other factors at play other than cultural background of the student, perhaps the most important being the subject. I believe my partner did not engage in the labs because he was not that interested in the subject but rather felt pressured to pursue it by his engineering parents.

In the same way many students attend college in America but do not have concrete goals or ambitions on what they want to study. They are pressured by all kinds of things to go to college right away, and many do not realize until the end of their time as an undergraduate what they truly want to study.

Therefore can we please stop making generalizations about student performance based on these types of things and instead of saying "you must be a good student you are X" look at the reason why good students are good students.

alexgartrell• 17 years ago

It's funny, a Czech Graduate Student friend of mine always says that Americans work too hard and focus too much on materialistic things. (For the record, this guy is a genius and is advised by two guys, the inventor of RAID and the Dean of CMU's School of Computer Science).

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

As an American student, I'd have to say I'm pretty pleased with the way things are.

endtime• 17 years ago

Counterpoint: In my experience as a CS TA, international students are far more likely to cheat on problem sets than American students.

Xavi• 17 years ago

I've heard similar stories form friends of mine who were also CS TAs.

yardie2• 17 years ago

As an American student I've observed or heard of both international and local students cheating. It really pissed me off when students would come to exams with psychiatrists' notes about a sudden onset of ADHD. Or abuse the sympathy of the teacher to get more time. Crib sheets only occurred in lower level classes where it's hard to observe. At the higher levels it becomes obvious who knows what.

miked• 17 years ago

I was a TA at a medium-sized US university 25 years ago. I had a lot of (20 or so) Malaysian students in a class of mine and it was very simple: if they were Chinese Malaysian they worked their butts off. If they were ethnic Malay they were lazy as hell. I caught several of the latter cheating as well.

perokreco2• 17 years ago

Cheating in school is a cultural thing, far more accepted and normal in for example Eastern Europe than US.

ivenkys• 17 years ago

Too many generalisations and over-simplification. A single swallow does not make a spring.

As an aside, this concept of Asian Intellectualism to me has always sounded hollow. My experience has been that Asian students especially Indian students tend to favour learning-by-rote over critical thinking which requires large amounts of time spent memorising things versus understanding them. The school and university exams in India tend to emphasise that as well.

oldtimer• 17 years ago

So why hasn't this professor just been honest with her students and told them they are wasting their money? Oh! yeah, that would mean should would be out of a job. Better to just let the students get deeper and deeper into debt.

Hint to her, she's part of the problem.

ekpyrotic• 17 years ago

UK students are worried of working hard. Western figureheads are often the child protegy, the uneducated polymath. 'Hard workers' are failures -- not geniune. We all strive (the right term?) to be the drop-out who can turn up on the exam morning and pull 100%.

'Hard worker' is an offensive term.

It's a cultural problem.

My lazy American students

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