What is going on with SoundCloud?

http://www.factmag.com/2015/08/14/what-the-hell-is-going-on-with-soundcloud/

by fwdbureau • 11 years ago

129 69 11 years ago

Kenji• 11 years ago

SoundCloud got big enough to get a good slice of attention from copyright bullies, that's what happened. It's a pattern you see everywhere. If it's on a small scale, nobody really seems to care, but then the service grows and if it fails to deal with copyright infringement properly, it's going down.

deng5• 11 years ago

It's a shame, really. SoundCloud used to be good service for independent musicians, and I really liked the social aspects of it and the integration into Ableton. But next thing you know, you read about deals with Warner and 100M funding and whatnot. Let's just hope Bandcamp keeps its focus; it's currently my favourite site for discovering new music.

ChrisArgyle4• 11 years ago

SoundCloud's take-down algorithms are only targeting musicians who rely on sampling copyrighted works. This, clearly, is a large chunk of SoundCloud's current user base but I honestly think this will result in a net increase in quality.

cauthon• 11 years ago

Paradoxically, the takedowns are often hurting the artists that they’re meant to be protecting. On August 12, London DJ Plastician had a track he produced, owned and released on his own label blocked by SoundCloud’s copyright detection algorithm.

deng5• 11 years ago

But they want to make deals with the majors, and they already have one with Warner. Which is fine, of course, but it no longer interests me personally. Instead of being a platform for indie musicians, it seems they are more interested in becoming a streaming platform for music from major labels, and that no longer interests me at all. Besides, I don't think their funding will be enough to compete in that area...

wishinghand2• 11 years ago

I made a completely sample free demo song for a friend to jam to and got stopped by the algorithm. I was referred to a song that was from a musical number with lots of chord and time changes. My sound was a single verse that was straight-ahead 4 chord rock. So while I wasn't hit with a takedown notice, I was prevented from posting until someone could listen to both songs (also it was really hard to listen to the song they quoted due to it's rarity).

thuuuomas• 11 years ago

What is it about sample-based music that makes it so inferior to acoustic music (on average) that culling it en masse "will result in a net increase in quality"?

edit: of order words out

mrottenkolber3• 11 years ago

So I upload a DJ mix and it gets rejected because of "Copyright blah blah". Then I fill out the form and tell them "Guys, it's a DJ mix, not the song you claim it to be". I never received a response. So I guess SoundCloud is no longer for me.

globuous• 11 years ago

What are the laws on using copyrighted material in mixes do you know ? I know Sound of Monte Carlo's soundcloud (they uplaod monthly mixes or w/e) is about to be taken down, they do use copyrighted material in their mixes though.

DrJokepu3• 11 years ago

In the US, if you use someone else's work or recording in your work, it's derivative work and unless the original work was in the public domain or your usage constitutes "fair use" (e.g. parody), you need to get their permission.

In the UK, where Soundcloud is based, it's very similar, except the equivalent of "fair use" is called "fair dealing" and it's much more restrictive in scope.

mrottenkolber3• 11 years ago

No idea about the legal situation. And to be frank I don't care. I have no economic incentive for my hobby. I consider it an art and a means of expression along the lines of singing and dancing. For all I care I am doing commercial musicians a favor for promoting their work, but really that's just an unintended side effect. SoundCloud was profiting of me giving away free content. Its people like me that enabled its business in the first place. So in the end its their loss, and they will fail because of the laws. I personally don't mourn the loss of SoundCloud as a viable publishing platform. I have many choices and it was never my primary platform to begin with (which is an independent pirate radio).

My point is that the laws don't stop the people doing the "infringing". We don't care. Its the businesses that could profit from the human need for creativity that are hurt by the absurd situation.

kevin_thibedeau• 11 years ago

That argument didn't work for Vanilla Ice. Why would you think your samples are immune?

deng5• 11 years ago

If you are using copyrighted music in your mix for more than a few seconds, I'm afraid SoundCloud has no other choice.

Sir_Cmpwn6• 11 years ago

Self hosting your stuff is the only reasonable way to publish these days. Everyone who could host it FOR you is falling prey to the DMCA, one after another. Either that, or work to fix this broken system.

prodmerc• 11 years ago

And then they send DMCAs to your hosting company and you get your hosting account suspended. Yeah, gotta fix the system...

Sir_Cmpwn6• 11 years ago

In my experience, it's easier to explain to your hosting company than to a company with no meaningful mechanism for appeal. The system definitely needs to be fixed - I'm just proposing practical solutions in the interim. It seems unlikely to me that these problems will be fixed any time soon since fixing them would run counter to the agenda of those with the resources to lobby politicians.

deng5• 11 years ago

Self-hosting is a huge PITA, especially if you don't want to give away your music for free: setting up and maintaining a streaming server and payment system is not trivial at all. Also, if you're not already a big name, self-hosting will make it unlikely for people to discover your music. This was the big thing about SoundCloud: you followed people you like and saw what they liked. The solution is what Bandcamp does: only host stuff where the copyright situation is clear. Which means: people selling the music they themselves created. This of course excludes mixes/remixes of copyrighted music.

tel2• 11 years ago

So you're saying there's space for a "DIY self-hosting" product which integrates with a promotion network?

rtpg• 11 years ago

You do know that the DMCA applies even when you're self-hosting right?

tel2• 11 years ago

I'm highly out of the loop. Why would someone self hosting their own music be prey to DMCA?

Sir_Cmpwn6• 11 years ago

Yes, but you can cite fair use. The problem isn't with stolen music, it's with things like mashups being taken down.

dragonwriter3• 11 years ago

No, the notice, takedown, etc. provisions that apply to third-party hosts do not, those are part of a adage harbor provisions for third-part hosts of user-supplied content against copyright liability that exists without the DMCA.

masklinn3• 11 years ago

DMCA Title II only applies to service providers hosting third-party content. It does not apply to (or make sense for) first-party content hosting.

ryandrake• 11 years ago

Stop and think for a moment about all of the "cloud" services you use and rely on daily. Then think about what you'd do if suddenly some algorithm told the company running that service to cancel your account and bar you from access, without a way for you to appeal. For some services, you're really hosed. I've definitely been re-evaluating my decision to rely so heavily and exclusively on faceless companies for important things as E-mail and web hosting.

haywirez2• 11 years ago

Regarding self-hosting, could anyone share some technical links related to streaming? Are there good/easy ways to interactively 'chunk-stream' audio without giving away the entire file (without Flash...)?

coldpie• 11 years ago

I think the new(-ish) MediaStream APIs are designed precisely for this.

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-file/tip/streams/StreamProc...

The simple audio element itself might be sufficient.

haywirez2• 11 years ago

Thank you, looking into this!

stefantalpalaru• 11 years ago

The root of all evil is blind trust in algorithms, usually by people that don't write algorithms themselves - people in charge.

We can't be both watched over by machines of loving grace and at the same time deal fairly and respectfully with each human user. I hope SoundCloud is not too big to fully pay the price of its arrogance and fade into oblivion.

jcadam• 11 years ago

Every time a new idea for a site/app/etc. involving 'music' and the 'internet' occurs to me (or is suggested to me), I immediately reject it out of hand: "Nope, DMCA/RIAA/ASCAP/etc. -- too risky."

P.S. Take a look sometime at ASCAP's requirements and fees/rates for digital music services -- it's insane. I don't know how any service could keep ASCAP placated and turn a profit.

jshap70• 11 years ago

They're not supposed to turn a profit while complying with their rates. It's a way to make sure they stay in control of who is selling the music.

jszymborski• 11 years ago

That's why we need something decentralised as torrents and as flexible and intuitive as Soundcloud.

theseatoms• 11 years ago

Doesn't the fact that they're based in Germany protect them from DMCA takedowns? I always figured that locating there was a calculated move, giving them a strategic advantage on this front.

kuschku• 11 years ago

Thanks to recent international treaties and safe-harbor regulations, they are forced to comply with DMCA. Even if a song is legal in Germany, if any of the parties involved (in this case, Warner Music) is in the US, US right, with DMCA, applies.

The US is quite literally forcing its laws on the rest of the world, and it gets worse every day.

This is also why so many are against TTIP. Trade treaty with China? No problem. With Japan? No problem. With the US? Fuck it.

_pmf_• 11 years ago

Germany has Abmahnanwälte; you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. The DMCA is downright reasonable and consumer friendly when compared to our system.

sp4ke• 11 years ago

Goodbye soundcloud, I really enjoyed discovering music on their service but I cannot support this kind of behaviours. It was made me quit Deezer, and now quitting SoundCloud.

bitL• 11 years ago

Basically there is no way a new "The KLF" could spawn nowadays...

rocky1138• 11 years ago

I've felt for the past few months that SoundCloud is just too good to be true. It feels like it's only a matter of time until they get bought out or shut down.

pinaceae• 11 years ago

the funny thing is that nearly every musician learns through playing covers. be it stumbling through a riff or trying to make a mashup in FTL. some progress into soemthing the audience likes, eventually start making their own music.

which the industry then makes their profits from.

kids like Kygo - start with DJ mixes, add a bit of their flavor, get noticed by Diplo+Friends, now doing his own thing. all documented through his soundcloud account.

the way to become a master is through imitation, then refinement. from music to code to sports, does not matter.

ldarby• 11 years ago

Reminds me of this: https://xkcd.com/743/. What's sad is that was 5 years ago, and nothing has changed since then.

What is going on with SoundCloud?

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