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godwinson__4-8

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Well yes. But some of the glazing comes from system prompts/training they do before end users get their hands on prompting it. Of course, you can try to make it ruder than vanilla if you wish (I recommend).

The question is if the producers of these models were less incentivized to make them agreeable simply because most people don't like being spoken to like an idiot (or having their asks vetoed), how would they actually react? In the same way they exhibit emergence regarding their capabilities, perhaps "uncensored" in such a way they would convey some emergent behavior in terms of (at minimum) their "tone". Perhaps it would be interesting to see for examples if smarter models just by default became ruder or less friendly or aligned. Perhaps more aligned to things we would all generally agree on, but less agreeable to an individual ask. Perhaps sub agents would be less valuable for a whole suite of use cases if the agent itself was allowed to be more critical at the root. Idk. But I do not believe it is simply a matter of prompting alone.

I prefer my models to border on rude.

How will I know it is offering me superior feedback regarding my code if it does not speak to me like a disappointed, high reputation stackexchange user?

The models that constantly glaze you with every question are profoundly insufferable. And yes, harmful. People need to be given feedback when they make an ask.

Imagine a model that was allowed to leverage its intelligence to truly tell you how it feels. Perhaps the problem of human driven slop (no it's not the AI's fault) would solve itself.

who is fighting windmills now? :P

see how your patience has been rewarded... no good deed goes unpunished. he will never produce an actual figure. look at his other replies. such a victim complex. on behalf of the catholic church. regarding their sexual abuse of minors. what more is there to say?

That was in the comment that started this chain. Are you using an alt? I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to follow. If I were you I would take a breath and read the chain again.

Here I'll help you:

Just about every kid goes to school though, so people just prefer to sweep that under the rug and focus on targeting organizations they are not a part of or disagree with because they're easier to demonize and make fun of.

In what world is that useful to your sanitized claim? Is it not an obviously underhanded apology for the conduct of the church? Is the aggrieved nature of this really lost on you?

"demonization" of the church?

Ironic phrasing, given the Catholic Church wants authority to decide what is demonic while acting like demons. Why is the comment so plainly aggrieved? Is the Catholic Church a victim here?

Even as your sanitized claim, where is the evidence?

It doesn't exist.

Please tell me which part of your brain is engaged when you converse with your imaginary friend?

Is that really the best reply you could conjure? Maybe you can produce some evidence absolving the Catholic Church here? Or are you also an apologist for institutions that call themselves sacred engaging in systemic sex abuse?

Does the school work to cover it up to the same extent? Are people across the school in on it? Are the rates of abuse higher on a per capita basis?

Why are you making apologies for (Catholic) church sex abuse? Because you are a member and you took a training? Yikes.

Kimi Work 2 days ago

The problem of the sota models clamping down on third party harnesses should be stated upfront. Getting a SOTA model in a custom harness requires API pricing or risking an account ban, correct?

This preliminary change in cost may not make it worth it for people depending on which is their "favorite agent". Especially as the default harnesses for said agents continue to improve...

Westerners don't travel to Afghanistan. Europe is not a pariah continent. Does this really need to be explained to you? You think global integration with Europe vs Afghanistan is comparable?

Wrong. Most people don't care and think it's a fair exchange. This trend of infantilizing people instead of acknowledging other adults may not share your perspective is pretty irritating.

People want free stuff. Most people understand their lives are boring and that really no one cares. Their "data" is only valuable in aggregate. In return they get "free" services. How does this betray anyone's understanding?

No one at Google is watching you have sex. They don't care. Your own government is more likely to spy on you in such a "voyeuristic" manner. Google doesn't give a shit. Have you been on the ad buying side? There are far more invasive data collectors than Google, delivering consumers far less utility. It seems like the only person not making the correct realizations here is you. People are told time and time again by people like you about how invasive Google is. Yet they keep using it.

What should we do, send them to your personally owned indoctrination camps? No one cares.

Believe people when they vote with their time and their wallet. You don't get to tell people what they think because in your mind they are insufficiently brainwashed. "Most people would agree with me if they knew what I knew" after repeated evidence to the contrary is akin to psychosis.

I share your sentiments re google exactly. But the credit card and banks point is also understated.

Google innovates. CCs are basically a monopoly/duopoly, a private tax on an economy where increasingly everyone uses credit for everything. They make money on these transaction costs and banks issuing them make money charging insane interest when your neighbors fall behind, trapping them in a debt cycle. And yes, your purchases get aggregated into data sales.

Have credit cards innovated? Has your bank innovated? At least with Google their services are largely good and they actually innovate at shocking scale. Especially if you are paying for their products it is hard to argue Drive or YouTube haven't gotten better. You're complaining about ads but you want YouTube to be free? Who is going to pay for it?

Meanwhile has your credit card gotten better? Why is the CEO of MasterCard making millions of dollars? If you had to pick the thing in your pocket that is preying on you and you pick your phone, you're not thinking clearly. The answer is your credit card.

Not really. The secret of our society is it wouldn't work if people with a controlling interest in things ever faced personal responsibility. Who got blamed for the Iraq war? How much did that cost? The theory is if you tried to blame someone then some future president wouldn't be able to declare war. You don't know how the law works apparently. Corporate law is pretty much the same. The economy doesn't boom if CEOs can actually be blamed for things. You don't blame a "someone" that's what incorporation does. If some code does a booboo just put a $ amount on it, withdraw the funds and move on. The media will focus on the humans because of the drama, but they are largely irrelevant. It doesn't come out of their pockets. A human is already window dressing in this status quo. A LLM has no reason to do the sorts of things that violate such legal protections, be it of a president (none really apply) or a CEO (good luck getting a CEO to take personal responsibility for anything short of outright fraud). If it suddenly goes haywire the law already has a concept of vis major.

The secret is individual humans are already largely irrelevant to our society. That's how we got here. The trend will only continue.

You may be right. Alternatively, Jevons paradox may hit a limit yet.

It also is not clear workers will be needed. The gain may not be in employment. Perhaps another paradox will arise as the additional gains will be consumed by AI itself. How unique are your prompts? Self prompting is a clear end state.

Yes. And this is exactly my point. The path of least resistance is often preferred. Maybe in most cases this makes sense. But it can also lead to one wading in slop.

Just beware an operating principle based on what "most people" want. Nearly all human societies that I am aware of bake in a caution to this impulse into their grounding philosophies. Because humans have always ultimately recognized that while seductive at first, taking guidance merely from "what most people want" is a path to decay.

Garbage in, garbage out. The inalienable right vs the mob. Three men make a tiger (三人成虎). Does the market always know best? Low quality, low effort questions are ultimately destructive to the ends of something like stackexchange. No need to apologize, they evidently didn't want you there either. Again, it's not personal. They may be gone tomorrow. Zoom out just a little bit farther and you will, in all likelihood, not be far behind.

In the age of gratuitously encouraging LLMs and constant slop I sometimes miss the way in which stack exchange punished people for putting in low effort.

I recently asked a LLM a question simply out of newfound habit. I realized while reading the line that this command seemed very familiar. I had bookmarked the exact same command in stack exchange many years ago. Of course the fact that stack exchange traffic has drastically declined came into my head. As well as the fact that this was predicated on them doing all that work so the LLM could essentially scrape, steal and now serve to me in this (for now) more convenient form.

These places are ultimately transactional. Taking personal offense to someone insulting your question is something you should learn to get over. The site overall would suffer. The vast majority of traffic wasn't people asking or answering questions it was using it as a search engine.

In Google I used to put in site:stackexchange or w/e because I knew answers there were less likely to be dead ends. Yes this is because some people got their feelings hurt. Iirc there may have been specific controversies re toxicity in meta, but scoping this purely to the question and answering side I never felt my own experience on stackexchange reflected something personal or done purely out of spite. I saw it as a way to ensure the site remained valuable as a place for high quality answers. Ensuring people have to write better questions is part of that. I often wish my LLM was meaner. My first stack exchange ribbing I just learned to ask questions better. I felt a human annoyed at my admitted laziness. This was valuable feedback. Should I have went boohoo and blamed them instead?

Now we have people wanting to fuck their AI girlfriends and waste your time with their LLM authored blog. If you think the problem with stack exchange was your feelings got hurt I just worry about what road you are leading us down. Having to earn your way in is part of human society. A LLM that tries to make you feel like a genius so you keep coming back is alien to most of how humans got here. I think the decline of stack exchange is less about a change in traffic patterns and more reflective of a continuing change in culture. I'm also guilty of course. But when I was reminded of my old bookmark, I went back and browsed other old stackexchange bookmarks. I did miss the very human nature of these questions and answers and comments. Yes including the occasional scolding and bickering. Sort of like this site. Filled with humans, yet not a complete cesspool. Oddly hopeful in our present age.

Of course whether or not a contract is or is not enforceable as such is also a matter of law. As I understand, this IPO was unique for a variety of reasons. The fact unique terms are promulgated in a contract does not mean (at least in saner times) that they are automatically immune to regulatory scrutiny.

Interesting as some very prominent short sellers had publicly indicated they were not going to attempt this given the stock's "meme" potential and the "cult of Elon". Seems to have happened anyway. Good for those short sellers that committed. It's easy to speculate. Actually risking the bet when the market has a history of being highly irrational when it comes to Elon is another thing entirely. And the insiders haven't even been allowed to offload yet...

Can you read your own writing?

What makes someone a "programmer" vs a mathematician? If you suspended your arrogance for a few moments you might realize you've wasted our time with a question that answers itself.

I mean it's also a generalization of very little value. Is someone doing linear algebra in lean not doing "the real stuff"? What is a programmer to you? Your question is why do some people not follow an area that is tangential to them to the maximal extent? Or to some arbitrary level of "real" as you subjectively define it? Is your claim that the level of linear algebra offered here is inherently useless unless paired with the "real stuff"?

Or did you just want us all to know you are a practitioner of such arts? Gold star for you.

I am also not religious, but yes the Bible is everywhere. So like you, I acquaint myself for similar reasons.

Though I take issue with one statement you made - "If I wanted to argue about vague shit I'd be into philosophy..." though I do sympathize.

Modern analytic philosophy in particular, if it is good, is all about trying to be exceedingly precise, often in domains where objects like the Bible (as you noted) are exceedingly vague. Philosophy has some catching up to do, but ultimately one should not disparage it so cavalierly. After all, the best philosophers were usually also the members of society most against the sort of uncritical religiosity that seems to appeal to so many, as it does now and even more severely through the ages, before the efforts of such thinkers to enlighten their fellow human were realized.

If there is a subject that seeks to answer the question of "how to ask questions" it is surely philosophy. The best mathematicians were often well acquainted. In the most famous times of "human flourishing" the philosophers and the mathematicians were one and the same.

But yes, there is a lot of bad philosophy. And there is a lot of religion pretending to be science. Sad, but it has always been true.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

Speaking of "categorisation and understanding dependencies" and "intelligence" and "fruit":

Interestingly, the Bible does not specify what kind of fruit was on the Tree of Knowledge. The association between the forbidden fruit and an apple was a derivative of later translations.

Imagine the consternation if the claim had become Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden tomato. Then this incessant controversy regarding the tomato's status would take on a biblical dimension... though then perhaps the Mormon claim that the Garden of Eden is to be found in the New World would actually have some credibility. Indeed, answers to some questions are not a matter of intelligence at all. Sometimes it seems to me intelligence is more about knowing what questions to ask in the first place.

We should build more data centers. Provided we extract as a political concession UBI so that the LLMs that run in these places, which are trained on a public corpus and will doubtlessly increasingly eliminate the bargaining power of millions of Americans, do not primarily benefit only their already fabulously wealthy owners.

We can build a better society in which this UBI is scaled as LLMs take over more of the economy. Otherwise, we are clearly headed for more shocks to the American political system as increasingly dubious figures create more phantoms (poor day laborers are "taking your job", China is to blame for American companies taking advantage of "free trade") which will keep tipping towards outright fascism ("enemy of the people", ICE executing people in the streets) to blame for our fundamental societal issues that apparently no one is interested in solving - the societal affects of transformative economic shifts - which no, cannot be stopped or postponed or placed in moratorium indefinitely.

We might as well all push for this now with highly consequential elections approaching over the next 2 - 3 years. Because the insanity will only get worse. We've seen this pattern before. The famous fascists of the 20th century weren't born that way and their path was not inevitable. Many of them actually humorously careened from something more like "far left" communism to fascism as they tried to figure out what would stick in trying to appeal to a world wrought with the consequences of war and economic disruption - delayed affects of the industrial revolution. Don't just try to halt the LLM revolution - you cannot, and you will fail - but be clear about what your demands are.

Moratoriums should have some sense of acceptance criteria or demands. They should not be ways for politicians to simply delay the inevitable because they have no good answers. I think these concerns about power consumption are excuses to deal with the real problems. It's not like energy consumption is thought of as intrinsically bad by the people pushing for these bans. I think LLMs could ultimately be better for society than my neighbor's spotless F-150. It's clear the antagonism to these data centers comes from the inequities around how the gains will be distributed. Ultimately state moratoriums are also ineffective because they will just move to another state, so people in New York will lose in the short term (or benefit - depending on what exactly you object to), but either way we all suffer in the longterm. Make UBI a demand of people running for national office that want your vote.