Developers are not always rich people

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9841852

by buzzlightyear • 11 years ago

37 40 11 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I really struggled through university, and have been lucky to find employment. But with debts of over $50k and living in a UK city to be close to work is slowly bankrupting me. I am loosing. I am loosing my health, and slowly my will to live. I am now sitting outside a cafe using my phone on free WiFi as I have had my telephone lines disconnected and am building up rent arrears.

I wonder how many people are in this situation? And how it makes you feel? Where can I turn to get help??

goodguy1• 11 years ago

You are a skilled university graduate! Keep your hopes high, and don't let your struggles overwhelm you. Whether or not you decide to continue working in software, or choose another path, you will be able to find happiness somehow, believe in that! Perhaps you should find a part time job to supplement your income, or look for a new developing job. Don't give up!

Someone1234• 11 years ago

Move out of London. You don't need to be "close to work" a lot of people commute in every day. And, yes, train tickets are insanely expensive but I bet it is still a saving all things taken into account.

$50k is do-able even in South England, I mean you won't be a movie star, but you'll get by on rent and so on until your salary increases. It is only London where that won't cut it.

informatimago• 11 years ago

Commute to Barcelona <-> London, it's cheaper ;-) :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2477291/London-rents...

unfunco• 11 years ago

This. London is a shit-show, filled with people that don't want to talk to you, and without wanting to mention the old rat-race cliché, that's precisely what it is; selfish, greedy, and unhealthy.

I lived in London for five years and it was the most miserable five years of my life, rent was £1,000 a month for a shared house in Camden, and with bills on top the majority of my salary was eaten up by living. I moved from London to Liverpool, my salary actually increased, and my rent halved for my own apartment. Now I have savings, my office is walking distance (8 minutes, to be precise), and the city is friendlier, safer, and being smaller it is made much easier for seeing friends and getting out more.

What London doesn't want you to know is that there's a whole country outside of it, with much better living conditions.

If moving is not an option, you can look at reducing and removing your debt using a charity, they arrange monthly payments straight out of your salary so that you're not building arrears, Martin Lewis normally has good advice on this sort of stuff: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/loans/debt-help-plan – the same website will also help you lower your outgoings.

Most importantly, $50k is not a lifetime of struggling, and you should look at getting a payment plan sorted before it becomes usurious. I've seen debt do horrible things to people and families, it's better to fix the roof whilst the sun is shining. Talk to someone.

haack• 11 years ago

I was about to comment explaining how this isn't everyone's experience, and how I love London, but realised this isn't the thread to do that.

Yes, if you want to save money then don't live in London. I'm currently commuting 1.5 hours and walking some of the journey to shave off as much money as I can from my commute expenses. Trains still aren't cheap and travelling is exhausting but it saves me money. In my experience London salaries are higher on average (£2-4k) but not necessarily.

Maybe try freelancing in the evenings to scrape together more money.

throwaway1410• 11 years ago

London is good if you have experience in something that's currently hot - for example, as a big data contractor you can easily pull £100-140k. If you don't have that, there are probably better choices.

kstenerud• 11 years ago

You do whatever it takes to survive. I still remember making $20 last the entire month for food for two early in my career. I remember being rendered destitute. Twice. I remember having the tax man on my ass for a ton of money I didn't have after a particularly catastrophic failure. I've lived in 2 square meters of space while looking for a job. During that time, I wrote https://github.com/kstenerud/Musashi to keep myself sane. I've begged family members for a plane ticket just to get me the hell out of a bad situation. Now, 20 years into my career, I finally have some stability. Part of that is my fault, since I'm entrepreneurial at heart, and I'm too stubborn to lie down and die.

When you're not born rich, you have a big challenge ahead of you. You fight, or you die.

Bahamut• 11 years ago

Just $50k? I have $200k of debt :( . Thankfully software engineering has been a good profession to me, but it has forced me to be ruthless about salary negotiations and focusing on my career.

Honestly, you could be in a much worse position - I was homeless out of grad school with no prospect of netting a job...for 2 1/2 years. I spent one week eating nothing but oatmeal due to lack of money.

Focus on saving your money and using it judiciously - don't pay your debts until you can safely manage it. Accruing them in the long term is better than making irresponsible payments.

noxToken• 11 years ago

I hear that long commutes are a mostly American. I can't truly attest to that, but I'm in the 30+ minutes boat. I would love to move closer, but good housing near my office is prohibitively expensive, and cheap housing is, well - you definitely get what you (don't) pay for.

I've done the math, and the savings are worth it for me. Instead of idling in traffic like most commuters, I make the sleep sacrifice and show up about 15 minutes early. According to my car's built-in fuel economy monitor, I get about 16-18 MPG on a typical rush hour commute and 26-30 MPG if I'm early. That's huge.

In addition to your commute, see where else you can cut costs. Americans spends nearly $8 daily on lunch. Bringing your own $3 lunch would save you about $100 monthly. You can also look into budget friendly foods that would put you at $1.50 per meal which would increase those savings to $130 per month.

I don't know your overall financial situation, but consider creating a list of all of your monthly expenses. Before you even begin budgeting, start striking out items that are more luxury than necessity. Cut cable in favor of Netflix only. Hell, go rogue and stream everything. Drop your expensive phone plan for something simple. Consider cutting data out of your phone plan altogether. I don't know how connected London is, but I'm almost always in range of an access point.

If all else fails, look to family for some funds. Hope that helped.

organsnyder2• 11 years ago

Please, get in touch with family and/or a mental health professional. It's touch to tell from this brief post, but I wonder if you might be suffering from depression or another illness. This could easily lead to difficulty with getting work done, as well as having the confidence to endure the emotional roller coaster that job-hunting often entails.

More to your question: I'm not sure if you're currently employed or not. Either way, it looks like you need to find a new job, so that's what I'm focusing on.

Almost all of my job prospects have been from people I already know. In fact, my next job (starts in two weeks) came out of a chance encounter at a conference (I happened to sit at the right table for lunch). If you're job-hunting, you should be going to at least one meetup or other tech event per week—ideally more. Also, keep networking even when you're not actively looking—you never know when that might pay off (or you might be able to benefit them) in the future.

Think of anyone that you know that might have a lead—former professors, friends, people you know from church or other social organizations, etc.—and see if you can meet them over coffee. Applying for a job with an inside connection is much more effective than applying blind.

I've been where you are—I had an unconventional resume, and the wrong bullet points on my resume (tons of Java experience in an area where most of the big enterprises are on .NET). It sucks. The feeling of repeated rejection is soul-crushing. The amount of perseverance needed is staggering. But, I can say with a high amount of certainty that you can get through this. Don't be afraid to ask for help—no one should have to go through this alone.

mandeepj• 11 years ago

Look what skill sets are needed by high paying jobs then try to get those skills. There are lot of courses online. You can also do part time freelancing. There are lot of developers they charge $100+ per hour. Giving up is not an option. Only you can do it for yourself.

javi830810• 11 years ago

Please never loose the will to live!!! Think about how many people, doesnt even get access to clean water. You're fine.

mariuskaunietis• 11 years ago

As one person told me: "Rich are not who earn a lot, but those who spends wisely". I'm from Lithuania, and I see people migrating to UK for a better living. They mainly do the "dirty work" - wash dishes, load trucks, but they manage to save money. I already earn more than average lithuanian, even though I haven't event finished University yet.

mattbgates• 11 years ago

My first job as a programmer in 2011, the boss was paying me US$10 an hour to code in Visual Basic 6. He gave me a $2 raise ($12) after 6 months of proving that I was a good coder. A year later, I ended up having to get a new job because I had debt that I had to pay off and didn't want to take 10 years to do it. Eventually got a job working a web developer for $16-$18/hr.

The advice I have: If you have a college degree or at least 5 years experience in programming, know that you more valuable than you think you are. Also: The reality is, you are replaceable. Keep moving on til you are loving what you do and doing what you love .. and getting paid to do it.

carrotleads3• 11 years ago

it baffles me how devs can work for those rates...

no wonder I still see Ads for C++ contracts in Melbourne for $50/hr for a mid-senior level job... clearly there are people who work at those rates...

the biggest thing holding dev salaries back is cause many devs love what they do..

shoo• 11 years ago

I guess it depends where you're living, and what opportunities you are aware of - or are available to you - and what your next best alternative is.

If you really need the money and don't have another option then working for a very modest quantity of money sure seems like a much better deal than working for none at all.

ionised• 11 years ago

Developer roles in the UK pay very poorly for the most part.

We don't seem to be valued much at all.

J_Darnley• 11 years ago

Oh I'm sorry that we can't all live in the programmers' utopia that you apparently inhabit where the pay is a thousand dollars per keystroke. Be thankful you have a fucking job!

I would work for $10, not per hour just ten dollars, because it would be more than the zero I earn right now.

omouse3• 11 years ago

because we're constantly told that we're lucky to be working on something cool that we usually love to do. we're lucky to have air-conditioned offices and internet access all day.

omouse3• 11 years ago

This is why I advocate for even the most junior programmers to earn more cash. Even a junior programmer's code can save hundreds of hours of labour and increase profit.

kzisme2• 11 years ago

Realistically, how much do junior/entry level position developers make?

I'm a senior and graduating in the Spring.

L-boog2• 11 years ago

I'm a developer. I live in my car. I have a job but I don't make much. On the weekends I escape to libraries and try to find shaded areas before and after hours in parks. This past weekend was especially miserable because it was a 3 day weekend with nothing open. I spent a lot of hours just sitting in my car doing nothing. I find refuge at night at Walmart lots. It's not a good life but I'm managing. It keeps me hungry. I'm pushing myself harder than ever to learn and hopefully get a better job. Keep your head up, and remember this is only a temporary situation, it will pass.

vishalzone2002• 11 years ago

for real? oh my...i am curious, what kind of developer and where? Maybe i can refer you to someone..

L-boog2• 11 years ago

I'm a front end developer, but I've been stretching my legs in the backend lately. I'm in the southeast US. I'd rather stay anonymous and not have this situation tied to me. Nobody knows I live like this.

CyberFonic2• 11 years ago

Hope your situation has improved, or it will soon.

Reading your story is an inspiration that you can make it work by managing your budget.

deeviant• 11 years ago

It gets better. I ate rice/pinto beans for 80% of my meals the first year out of college(I graduated in 2010, not a good time even in the Bay Area, Ca), I defaulted on some bills, my first job sucked and paid like crap and wasn't even an actual dev position.

But it eventually worked itself out. 5 years later, I have solid roof over my head, a good job, a wonderful wife and a great life. I think the most important thing for me to realize is that those things, being the stuff that eats us up inside, like bills, money and jobs, are really a small part of life, and you can never let them rule your life.

Whatever you do, don't sell yourself short. Always be looking and open for any opportunities that present themselves to you. Be on your own advocate and make choices that are best for you, not your employer, parents or anything else. In the end, the only truly required attribute, in my humble opinion, that is required to be successful as a software developer(and many other things), is persistence. Persistence to learn the basics, persistence to hone your skills and persistence to look and keep looking until you find a job that fits your needs.

CyberFonic2• 11 years ago

There are no easy answers. First things first, you are better off than most: you have a degree in a good field, a job and live in the UK.

Many of us don't choose to have a landline. Pre-paid mobiles can be an excellent deal in the UK.

Nobody gets rich by spending more than they earn. I am guessing you are being paid reasonably well. More than a recent immigrant, etc. So as painful as it might be, you need to adjust your costs (rent is probably one of the biggest ones) so that you are spending less. As many other HN readers have pointed out, you could move to somewhere with more affordable rents, either commute or find a job closer to home. Do you spend money on eating out? new toys? a car you hardly use? They are all discretionary spends that you could cut back on.

If you are really suffering from burn-out, depression, some illness, then get that attended to urgently.

stevekemp• 11 years ago

I don't want to take from your good reply, but in the UK having a landline is often a prerequisite of having broadband/internet.

(There are alternatives, but they are atypical.)

pyb• 11 years ago

You're really making a lot of wild guesses here ("paid reasonably well", "toys", "car"). The OP might read this kind of answer as somewhat patronizing.

msie• 11 years ago

Hopefully, if you have favourable laws you should think about some consumer proposal or bankruptcy. You should quickly get out of feeding the interest on your debts. Just think about it.

JamesReeves1988• 11 years ago

Move out of London.. There are plenty of other developer roles around the UK which pay a little less but the living costs are much less.

I live in Wales, and my mortgage is £320 a month, taking my bills into account that is roughly around £800/£900 a month.

lcmatt• 11 years ago

Get out of London ASAP. £32k a year is a respectable wage and you'll find it goes a long way once you move further north (I'm on a very similar wage and live in Leeds)

First thing is you need that roof over your head, if possible clear those arrears as a priority - moving will become more difficult if you leave with debt as no agency or landlord will touch you and it will damage your credit rating for years.

Developers are not always rich people

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