Please stop saying Java sucks

http://blog.smartbear.com/programming/please-stop-staying-java-sucks/

by Baustin213 • 11 years ago

32 37 11 years ago

blog.smartbear.com

JackMorgan• 11 years ago

I think when I've heard people saying Java sucks, they mean its type system allows defects that the type system of F# or Scala can prevent. Those reasons given for Java being better than Python or Ruby are also why F# is better than Java.

SamReidHughes2• 11 years ago

It's a lot more than that. For example, it's really annoying to define new types in Java.

AnimalMuppet• 11 years ago

Could you be more specific? How is it really annoying to define new types in Java?

deedubaya• 11 years ago

Java sucks.

But seriously, every language has its pros and cons. Java is a powerful, fast language, but verbose and often wielded like a hammer IMHO.

davelnewton5• 11 years ago

I'm curious how you mean "powerful" here.

Someone12342• 11 years ago

Java is fine. It did lag a little behind there for a few years, but the last two Java releases have really pulled things together.

I will say C# is still my preferred language just for quality of life reasons, and I also feel like Java has been largely relegated to either web-backend or enterprise desktops. There is no practical way to deliver a Java application to an consumer now, Java Applets are "dead" and running Java on the desktop is a pain. Minecraft is likely the only reason any non-business user has Java still installed.

But saying Java is "only" good for web-backend stuff is kind of like saying a car is "only" good for driving. That's where the majority of new development currently happens and it has a very bright future. Java on Tomcat delivers that experience just fine (although C# w/MVC is still my poison, again for quality of life stuff).

copperx• 11 years ago

Could you explain the "quality of life" bit? Are you saying that if you programmed in Java life would be hellish?

Someone12342• 11 years ago

This article summarises the differences: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms836794.aspx

Although it is a little out of date in some areas (for both languages).

C# has been stealing from F# for several versions now, so we get all kinds of nice shorthand for accomplishing sometimes complex operations.

TheLoneWolfling2• 11 years ago

Off the top of my head:

* A half-decent type system

* No half-baked primitive / object distinction

* The `as` operator

* Various operators related to null

* Ability to distinguish if something is nullable or not, and to have nullable and non-null references

* The `checked` keyword

* Operator overloading

* Properties

* Syntactic sugar w.r.t. getters and setters

* out & ref parameters

* struct support

* unsigned values

All of these things are major pain points in Java. Some of them can be overcome by running external tools, some of the time. Hopefully.

crazy_geek• 11 years ago

Hear, hear! Is Java the right tool for everything? No, but for large code bases, it is miles easier to dive into a codebase, and the tooling is so much better than anything else I've seen that's not Visual Studio (as much as I'm not a MS fan, VS is really nice).

Is Java perfect? No, but it gets a whole lot of things not-wrong. More reasons: https://drew.thecsillags.com/Why-Java/

nobleach• 11 years ago

As a language, Java is just that, a very capable language. The JVM is full of great engineering, and when properly tuned, is a very powerful compile target.

Where things start to suck is what seems to surround Java. Years and years of XML configs, Maven and Ant processes. Devs whom haven't been allowed to read about new advances.... I was at a Java user group about a year ago when Venkat Subramaniam came to speak about functional programming. This was right around the time when DHH made his assertion about unit testing. Venkat made a joke like, "and as we learned this week, we no longer need to test our code". No one got the joke. A room full of at least 200 developers and no one got it... because they probably spend most of their time in a cubicle thinking that these new-fangled technologies will die someday, and we can all go back to writing crap like we did in 1999. (Other fun assertions from that user group had to do with JSON being horrible and XML being a far better format for web communication)

It highlighted the problem for me. While Twitter engineers are doing really cool things with Java, many are mired in these huge monolithic apps that take hours to build and even longer to deploy. And much of this stuff is stored in SVN... with no unit tests. It's the culture. They look at front-end developers with disdain... with their GitHub accounts and Vim/Tmux setups. Java doesn't suck. The culture that has grown around it does.

davelnewton5• 11 years ago

Java isn't capable, however, of high levels of abstraction without various surrounding crufts, however. That is why it sucks. It's not simply a matter of "more lines", it's the additional cognitive overhead reading those lines demands, and the tooling required to make it suck less.

bcg13• 11 years ago

Did you just call jython, jruby, groovy, and all of the other dynamic JVM languages cruft?

Or maybe you don't consider them high levels of abstraction... if that's the case might as well not consider inheritance, interfaces, dynamic proxies, classloaders, and annotations while we're at it.

coldtea2• 11 years ago

Java isn't capable, however, of high levels of abstraction without various surrounding crufts, however.

Well, Go is even worse in this regard, and yet people jump all over it.

rst• 11 years ago

I can believe that a lot of Java devs are not keeping up, but the kerfuffle around that particular Railsconf keynote is a poor example -- I'm pretty sure lots of cutting-edge machine learning researchers, Haskell developers, and so forth also weren't following the gossip in the technical community around a particular tool set that they don't happen to use.

I've seen communities which start to think they're smarter than everyone else because those other people don't get the insiders' inside jokes. It's usually not a good sign for the community...

forgottenpass• 11 years ago

because they probably spend most of their time in a cubicle thinking that these new-fangled technologies will die someday, and we can all go back to writing crap like we did in 1999.

That is exactly the singular reason I don't pay attention to DHH's brain farts. I guess you got me.

mattbrewsbytes• 11 years ago

Funny how people get riled up over stuff like this. The article is from 6 years ago and you still hear the same comments like "the _____ sucks but the ____ is fine" (ecosystem|language,types|jvm etc.)

The only way to have a healthy debate about a language is to have context: if you are building an integration between a custom app with a RDBMS that has to send data to an ERP system in XML, and there are specs with interfacing the ERP in Java, C#, C++ are you going to argue that Haskell or Lisp is better?

If you have to put a simple web application together quickly as a working prototype are you going to choose Ruby/Rails, Perl, Java/JSP, etc.? It probably doesn't matter technically but does matter when it comes to the experience of the people building it.

Just debating languages against each other in some sort of "cage match" is sort of ridiculous.

cryptos• 11 years ago

I have the feeling that the "Java sucks" outcries are not so loud anymore. Java improved significantly over the last few years, the frameworks are better and more lightweight these days (compare Java EE 7 with J2EE ...). And Java has probably the best tooling available. Plus there are some migration stories of companies moving away from Ruby, Python or other scripting languages.

So, all in all Java is a fine technology and you can use the solid foundation with more convenient and concise languages like Scala and Kotlin.

serge2k2• 11 years ago

AutoCAD is going to be big, Quickbooks is going to be big, FireFox is going to be big

1. you probably aren't writing those. 2. Even if you are, you probably aren't writing them in Java.

The problem is the reason why you have to write so many lines in Java. Annoying checked exceptions, lack of expressiveness, boilerplate.

Strong type checking? great. prevents whole swaths of errors.

Move code around, change signatures, add a function to an interface, and I know nothing is broken. Python can’t.

True, now how painful is it without the IDE?

It’s true that in Java you tend to have lots of filler code

right and that sucks. The reason that few lines of code is nice isn't just the chances of bugs occuring. It's also nice because it means that I can pack in logic into a smaller, more readable, space. All that other stuff in java doesn't really do much of anything, it is just there (mandatory javadoc on a method called boolean isFooFrobulated(Foo foo), yay so useful!). It means I have to write it, have to maintain it, have to read through it when looking for a bug.

Consider how many java haters actually like C#. It just adds in better tooling to reduce the amount of stupid boilerplate code you have to write. It adds a nice layer of sugar on top that makes things far more pleasant.

altcognito• 11 years ago

1. you probably aren't writing those. 2. Even if you are, you probably aren't writing them in Java.

You probably also don't have teams as big as Autodesk or Quicken, therefore you'd better have a language that helps prevent breakages. Java is a good match for that.

True, now how painful is it without the IDE?

Why would you do that? Because you like working without good tools? Text editing is but a very tiny aspect of software development.

jrmenon• 11 years ago

Disclaimer: I come from C++ and PHP world, but in the last few years, have been working in Java after a long gap.

So here are the pros and cons of Java I see (not comprehensive but somethings that I tend to care about):

Pros:

1) The strongly typed features does help in finding potential bugs during compile time.

2) The Generics and Container frameworks seems fairly sane when compared to the complexity of C++ templates.

3) Concurrency features are nicely standardized now - Executor framework, concurrent container frameworks and so on.

4) In short, 'stock java' (without all the heavy-weight frameworks) seem nice comfortable and sane to work with.

Cons:

1) Fairly large and legacy XML-driven frameworks like Spring and Hibernate is a huge time-sink to figure out all their intricacies, not to mention very hard to debug things esp. when some 'business logic' resides in these mysterious XML incantations.

2) While not really a Java problem, but due to these humongous frameworks, there is a tendency to build giant war files with code and configs all bundled together. Need to make a config change? Check it in some xml file, and then build to deploy wars/jars. It takes some work to separate code from configs, and convincing traditional Java engineers to move away from this model - i.e. check configs separately, deploy them independently, restart servers etc.. without any need to build and deploy process.

3) Legacy app-server based architectures where there is apache in the front with IPC overheads to a Java app-server.

The way I get around some of the cons is to convince the engineers to sparingly use the frameworks (just enough to get some basic routing rules to map urls to controller entry points in the MVC setups), use more lightweight servers like Jetty (directly listening on socket ports), esp. when it is just handling some API requests, and sticking with JSON as the payload format.

It is been a challenge but I have had success in using Java in very limited ways, and decoupling it from serving web (jsp) pages and so on.

killface• 11 years ago

Meh, I like Java. Like, I actually enjoy programming in it. Some key reasons:

1. IDEs are not a crutch. They're a useful tool. Anyone who talks about expressiveness or efficiency in Ruby but discounts IDE help is a hypocrite. You learn the tools you have. Refactoring large methods, extracting interfaces, mass renaming with guaranteed safety -- those things actually matter when you learn to use them.

2. Ant is dead. Hibernate is dying. Spring XML config is largely dead. Much like the perf argument, most of the bad impressions people have of it are based on years-old issues.

3. Tools like Spring Boot and Dropwizard have made it so a Java REST service is smaller than a RoR one.

4. Gem upgrades can be backwards incompatible, so once your app is of a certain size, your framework support becomes very rigid and brittle.

5. Twitter left Ruby because of perf issues. drops mic

6. Active Record ~= Hibernate. Hibernate can be configured with annotations, so leave the XML out of this. You still have n+1 and over-selection of fields by default.

7. Global interpreter lock. 'Nuff said.

8. The actual argument used by DHH wrt performance was, 'Ruby is fast enough' -- if the Java community tried that, it would be an endless mocking parade.

I could go on, but won't. I don't care if others leave Java, just means more work for me. Hell, replacing shitty rails apps and replacing them with reasonable java apps is a good consulting business :)

otterley• 11 years ago

Twitter left Ruby because of perf issues.

That's not completely true. Some parts of the stack were written in Scala, etc., but to my knowledge, much of the front end is still Ruby.

skuunk12• 11 years ago

Aren't Android apps written in Java?

lgas• 11 years ago

Yes. Why?

skuunk12• 11 years ago

I am wondering then why people think Java is only good for old school enterprise apps (according to the comments).

TheLoneWolfling2• 11 years ago

The biggest problem I have with Java is that it is handhold-y in ineffective ways.

It doesn't have automatic getters and setters, because they obscure the code that runs. Except that in practice everything ends up with getters and setters precisely because it means it can obscure the code that runs - namely, so you can add behavior without having to change the public interface. Which means in practice it's just more boilerplate and more opportunity for typos.

Ditto with operator overloading, interfaces, default arguments, multiple inheritance, dynamic types...

peterashford• 11 years ago

The reality is that if Java was a useless language, it wouldn't be the most used programming language in the world. It's not the right tool for every task but more people in the world find it the right tool for their job than any other language. There's a reason for that and it's not that a now defunct company funded its development decades ago.

Please stop saying Java sucks

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