David Ulevitch: Some thoughts on Google DNS

http://blog.opendns.com/2009/12/03/opendns-google-dns/

by drallison • 17 years ago

77 65 17 years ago

blog.opendns.com

phsr• 17 years ago

David's 5th point is the most important, at least in my opinion. By Google running DNS, they can potentially collect your complete browsing behavior (since you'll go through their server all the time, not only when you search with them).

robotron• 17 years ago

http://code.google.com/speed/public-dns/privacy.html

tptacek11• 17 years ago

Compare to: http://www.opendns.com/privacy/

Heh.

chris100• 17 years ago

Not to be paranoid, but where does it say that their privacy policy won't change?

Right now, the privacy policy looks great on the surface. They are launching a new product.

But you can't deny that Google's entire DNA is to extract monetizable information from huge amount of seemlingly unrelated raw data.

That's why you have to take their privacy policy with a grain of salt.

tptacek11• 17 years ago

The funny part about this claim is that 90+% of Internet users use DNS solely to get to Google. It's really a choice between having one big company tracking your habits, or two, one of which is small, under intense pressure, and hungry.

marltod2• 17 years ago

That isn't how DNS works. It is true that 90% of users go directly to google, but once there they click on Search results, news results, etc... The browser takes the link and the OS does a DNS lookup to get the ip address of the server hosting that url. Then the browser connects to that server, google is no longer in the picture.

jeff182• 17 years ago

Sadly, it's just FUD, and it appears to be spreading.

Kadin2• 17 years ago

I'm not sure how much of a concern that is for most users, who use Google to get to all the content on the Internet anyway. Having DNS records wouldn't buy Google much that they don't already have from search queries and results.

It's getting to be a very rare (non-technical) user who actually types URLs directly into their browser; most people go through Google, even to get to sites where the domain name and site name are exactly the same. They're hitting Google for every single site they visit already.

eli• 17 years ago

I honestly don't think they would be that evil (and the privacy policy as currently stated would forbid that), but they can collect aggregate data and infer what sites are popular at what times and from what geographic/network locations. That's useful data. I bet you could use it to create web stats that are at least as good as Alexa (admittedly a low bar).

earl• 17 years ago

Um, they already have Google Analytics and their search toolbar. I rather doubt there is much they don't see.

mtarnovan• 17 years ago

Lots of FUD, not so much useful stuff.

Sidnicious• 17 years ago

Agreed. Responding to competition by trying to scare your users away from the competitor isn't healthy.

Confusion• 17 years ago

It's a tactic politicians have successfully used for ages. If it works, you can't blame a company for doing it. They're not in it for the ethics, but for the money.

dschobel• 17 years ago

Agreed. The first point is the only legitimate technical point.

Everything else is just vague fear mongering about how google might misuse their dominant position and frankly DNS doesn't scare me any more than Google owning my email, documents and search history.

Either way, OpenDNS is awesome and I'm excited to see how they'll proceed fighting Google's entry (on technical merit).

bumblebird• 17 years ago

It seems more worried/scared than anything to me. If I was openDNS I would be worried also.

polynomial• 17 years ago

Putting aside Dave's obvious bias and the question of ads, frankly, I'm shocked he misses the obvious: Google DNS is intended to work with Chrome's DNS prefetch, which is arguably the key technique that makes Chrome so fast.

tptacek11• 17 years ago

Third, Google claims that this service is better because it has no ads or redirection. But you have to remember they are also the largest advertising and redirection company on the Internet. To think that Google’s DNS service is for the benefit of the Internet would be naive.

In other words: Google's DNS service has no ads or redirections. Ours does. But that doesn't make our service worse, because Google is an ad company.

davidu• 17 years ago

They just do it at a different layer. They do it in the toolbar or chrome. It's no different, plus users can turn it off if they want with us. It's all in users hands.

jeff182• 17 years ago

"It's no different"

Actually, it is. Google's DNS has no ads. Yours, by default, does.

Also, FYI, Chrome and the Google toolbar have no ads. It sounds like you have your head in the sand, or are deliberately spreading FUD. I hope it's the former.

TallGuyShort2• 17 years ago

How are the toolbar and chrome NOT in the user's hands? Your belief that Google monetizes all their services directly is naiive - they have repeatedly made very open attempts to improve the internet with no direct benefit to them.

tptacek11• 17 years ago

By "a different layer", I think you mean "the right layer".

houseabsolute• 17 years ago

As far as I know, Google doesn't have ads in toolbar or in Chrome (beyond those which would be displayed by the internet ordinarily). I have to say that these comments of yours are diminishing the standing of OpenDNS in my mind. There's nothing wrong with using ads to pay the bills or make a profit from your service, but being dishonest about your competitor is unacceptable.

From your article, at least a few points seem very iffy to me:

1. "You get the experience they prescribe": I haven't used Google DNS, but am I wrong in thinking that that is the exact same experience as standard DNS? If so, what's the point of this sentence except to inspire unfounded fear in the people reading your blog post?

2. "But you have to remember they are also the largest advertising and redirection company on the Internet": Misdirection to make your readers fear Google without rational basis. Presumably you are doing this to limit attrition due to this announcement, but perhaps you are just deluded. This comment was completely inappropriate in the context of Google's announcement.

3. "It’s not clear that Internet users really want Google to keep control over so much more of their Internet experience": So long as the DNS Google provides continues behaving exactly the same as the DNS an ISP or your company provides, I don't think many rational people will have an issue with Google providing (not controlling) this portion of their experience.

pyre7• 17 years ago

How do redirections/advertisements in Google Toolbar or Google Chrome relate to Google DNS? Weren't they already there before they announced Google DNS? How does their Google DNS service affect these?

You are trying to compare Google DNS with your OpenDNS service, but then when someone points out a difference that isn't beneficial to your point (that your service is better) you change the subject to something else. How exactly does this bolster your point?

If you're trying to say: "Google monetizes their DNS service with adverts/redirections in other business units. I can't do this because I only have one business unit (OpenDNS)." then just come out and say it rather than beating around the bush and redirecting the conversation.

mahmud• 17 years ago

I use EveryDNS and there are no ads and redirections for non-parked domains.

sanj• 17 years ago

* To think that Google’s DNS service is for the benefit of the Internet would be naive. *

Google believe that making the internet better benefits them. They largely don't feel they need to monetize every niche there.

agnokapathetic• 17 years ago

To think that Google’s DNS service is for the benefit of the Internet would be naive.

I'm not so sure, it is starting to seem like Google has worked out essentially that Revenue = User-Time on Internet. The Chrome project is one example, a better faster internet is in Google's best interest.

rms• 17 years ago

>Revenue = User-Time on Internet

Yes, I was told that explicitly at a presentation by Google recently. Anything that makes the internet better or makes people use it more makes Google more money.

roc• 17 years ago

And, like many of their other projects, they seem to be content to throw their hat in the ring just to keep everyone else honest.

Broken DNS is a threat. But they don't need to answer all DNS requests to protect against it. They just need a non-broken service as a credible threat to keep the other providers from sliding in that direction.

raphar• 17 years ago

A couple of questions:

Hasn't google tried to acquire OpenDns? It's a no brainer!

Has been any contact between the two companies?

The scenario of google (or any company) controling internet traffic is not a nice one :(

evgen• 17 years ago

Why bother trying to acquire them when there is nothing technically difficult about what opendns is doing and when google has more resources and technical expertise to bring to bear on the problem? What exactly would you expect opendns to bring to the table other than a trademark and a somewhat controversial reputation?

To be honest I am somewhat surprised that opendns has lasted as long as they have, but I expected the attack to come from the akamai/cdn direction rather than directly from google.

davidw2• 17 years ago

I think what makes me nervous about it is that I can't even control my own sites any more if I use Google's DNS, and get the "mysterious Google lockout with no recourse".

theBobMcCormick• 17 years ago

That makes no sense at all. How would using Google DNS remove your control of your own domain? Google DNS is just a resolver, it's not an authoritative DNS. If you were "locked out" for some reason you could just go back to using your ISP dns servers. Where's the problem?

davidw2• 17 years ago

Err... sorry - let's chalk that up to flu leftovers in my head. I was thinking of a Google DNS service for one's own domains ala EveryDNS.

doosra• 17 years ago

The fine-grained control is a plus for openDNS.

Second, from the stories that seem to pop up, google's achilles heel is it's customer service. OpenDNS might be able to do better.

pyre7• 17 years ago

Using their DNS server shouldn't require much user input. Nonetheless, most people use their ISP's DNS servers, and let me tell you that Comcast support will always tell you that your computer is at fault if there is a DNS issue. Google is entering a domain where poor customer service is the norm.

Edit: just realized the pun... totally unintended, but funny to see an 'Easter Egg' of sorts hidden from you in your own post.

dfranke• 17 years ago

I don't want "Dashboard controls to manage your experience the way you want for you, your family or your organization". I just want a DNS server that obeys the goddamn protocol.

Steve0• 17 years ago

That's your choice of course. If you work in a small school it's easy to block unsuitable sites this way.Another alternative would be the level 3 dns servers, easy to remember, pretty fast and no alteration of records.

samaparicio• 17 years ago

Take the FUD point of view if you want. I don't see it. When a giant enters your market, this is a great way to react. No dismissal of their impact, validation that you created a market, desire to keep on competing, and ultimately, positioning positioning positioning of your competitive differentiators... I applaud David for his post and I think we can all learn.

wglb• 17 years ago

Well, First, it’s not the same as OpenDNS. When you use Google DNS, you are getting the experience they prescribe.--turns out they did not prescribe that, the standards perscribe that. OpenDNS breaks the protocol.

Second, it means that Google realizes that DNS is a critical piece of our Internet’s infrastructure and that it’s of strategic importance to help people safely and reliably navigate the Internet. -- This is not very astonishing, as it is pretty much the definition of what DNS is.

Third, Google claims that this service is better because it has no ads or redirection. -- And that is because ads and redirection are nonstandard, broken behavior.

Fourth, it means that Google is bringing awareness to a wide audience that there is a choice when it comes to DNS and that users don’t have to settle for what their ISP provides. -- And they don't have to settle for broken behavior that other services provide.

Fifth, it’s not clear that Internet users really want Google to keep control over so much more of their Internet experience than they do already -- If more control means correct behavior, then they might think so.

David Ulevitch: Some thoughts on Google DNS

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