Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

http://technical.ly/philly/2015/05/12/computer-science-dropout-becca-refford/

by jkestner • 11 years ago

25 65 11 years ago

Quizz• 11 years ago

The process of learning to program is more vocational than lecture hall. Most colleges and their deans don't get it.

tompccs• 11 years ago

In my opinion, if you want to learn how to be a software engineer you should take a degree in Software Engineering (which is a natural descendent of Electrical Engineering). If you want to be a computer scientist then do a degree in Computer Science (a natural descendent of mathematics). The problem is that the courses in many universities are misleadingly named.

feedjoelpie• 11 years ago

But they're still not going to let you skimp on the calculus classes. I do think 4-year degree programs should offer people more opportunities for the practical aspects. These don't really have to necessarily be part of the curriculum either.

I did two summers in the College of Wooster's Applied Mathematics Research Experience (AMRE) program, where they paid us a small stipend and provided on-campus housing for the summer. It was run as a little faculty-advised math/comp-sci/econ consultancy to help local businesses, and it was possibly the most valuable thing I got out of college.

All without having to skimp on actual computer science and math in the curriculum. These things are supplemental, not exclusive. And of course not everyone needs to go do a full 4-year degree if they just want to get out and make software.

But those people shouldn't be in 4-year computer science degree programs. And we should stop talking about this issue as if it's computer science that needs to change. It's about making people understand their options and what they will and will not get from each. For most quality CS programs, you have to pursue the practical outside the curriculum. For a code school, you might have to do some self-exploration about common problems encountered in computer science.

Everyone needs to find their own correct balance for their personal abilities and goals.

lifebeyondfife• 11 years ago

This! Looking back at my career I didn't really learn to program properly until I was in an industry job staring down the barrel of a massive codebase collaborating with colleagues across different teams. It was great.

But time and time again I find my strong theoretical grounding in computer science coming in handy. The last time I hit the front page of HN was with a blog post about how I spotted an NP-complete problem in $m+ enterprise system for insurance companies. It would have gotten to clients with unresponsive brick-like performance if they upped a couple of parameters because my colleagues didn't understand the Curse of Dimensionality and why it was important.

I'll admit that college professors can live in their own world of academic navel gazing, but there is an actual point to theoretical computer science. And the best time to learn is when you have the time and freedom from short term goals and arbitrary client deadlines. If only there were a few years we could devote to such endeavours before entering the workplace. Hmmmmm...

jawns2• 11 years ago

How do you see software engineers and computer scientists differentiated in the job market? It seems like there's a ton of bleed.

viiralvx2• 11 years ago

I graduated from Notre Dame with a Computer Science and Design degree. While the CORE classes are heavily theoretical and forces you to think about fundamental CS concepts (Theory of Computing, Programming Paradigms, Data Structures, Algorithms, etc.), there are electives tailored to learning how to program. I took electives in Mobile Application Development, Building Web Apps, JavaScript, Database Concepts, Data Mining, Human Computer Interaction and Healthcare Analytics. We even have electives in Cloud Computing that allows people to learn how to use MapReduce and other cloud frameworks. If there was something that I wanted to learn that wasn't taught in a course or elective, I either learned it through research (Data Mining & Machine Learning, along with Distributed Systems) or through learning it in my free time on my own (Ruby on Rails and EmberJS). People can't expect Computer Science to teach them how to be a Rails developer, but should take the initiative to teach themselves after they get the fundamentals.

jkestner5• 11 years ago

The theory, I think, is nice for a small subset of who we call programmers now. The article highlights that there is a huge demand for what you might call blue-collar programmers who don't need to care about theory, because there are plenty of simple, non-groundbreaking jobs to be done. Your basic CRUD apps.

Those blue-collar programmers need not only more of a vocational education, but tools to match. Higher-level programming languages help. In mobile app development that's what's driven demand for PhoneGap and newer tools like Glide, again for those common, boring apps. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1783091318/glide-beauti...

robotresearcher2• 11 years ago

Computer Science is not identical with learning to program.

jsnk• 11 years ago

The Perils of JavaSchools by Joel Spolsky (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchool...)

protomyth4• 11 years ago

Shouldn't they create a Software Engineering program and then leave Computer Science alone?

clavalle3• 11 years ago

I would guess that even Software Engineering students would have to go through Calculus (just because it is a good weed out if for nothing else) and other math heavy, theoretical practice -- just like other Engineers.

What they want is almost a Software Technician degree. Someone that can put together apps and know how to troubleshoot but who are not working on the bleeding edge but putting together technology that others have largely already designed.

There is a huge need for this level of skill but not so much formal training. There are budding movements in that direction but nothing in the traditional higher education landscape or with that same level of trust and recognition.

protomyth4• 11 years ago

I wouldn't call it a "Technician" since that gets a little confusing with certificates and such, but I take your meaning. Basically these folks are looking for what a technical college would teach but they want a university name on their diploma.

robotresearcher2• 11 years ago

Calculus (just because it is a good weed out if for nothing else)

Nothing should be in the curriculum as a 'weed out'. Every class should justify itself in technical content. CS needs calculus absolutely, but for the ideas, not as a hurdle.

autokad• 11 years ago

then nobody, like almost nobody would major in computer science.

the article started off as a good look at where computer science is / needs to go and then disintegrated into a 'why aren't there more women engineers?' ok... why aren't there more women garbage men? erm, garbage people?

anyways, I think computer science programs have come a long long way since the early 2000s. I think the major thing computer science majors have to know is, your education that you pay for will not be enough to succeed. you MUST be a autodidact and teach yourself what is important for the specific thing you want to do when you graduate.

humanrebar• 11 years ago

then nobody, like almost nobody would major in computer science.

OK. For the sake of argument, let's say that's true. What's the harm? Computer scientists aren't required to deliver babies or anything. Even if they were, do we have a shortage of them?

I feel that most of the interesting computer science should happen at the graduate level anyway. Take mathematics or software engineering as an undergrad, go back to do computer science once you know what you're getting into.

protomyth4• 11 years ago

"then nobody, like almost nobody would major in computer science."

That's actually fine. If Computer Science goes more theory and math that would be a good thing. Its really time we start rethinking the vocational part and separating it out. Computer Science isn't a job training program.

awkward2• 11 years ago

I had the option of a BA in computer science (sans some science and math requirements, plus more humanities requirements) and a BS in computer science. I took the BS, because it seemed like the BA was a "lighter" degree.

I think you're underestimating what 18 year olds are willing to put themselves through.

noddingham• 11 years ago

I think that already exists, you can go for "computer programming" in various technical schools.

protomyth4• 11 years ago

Yeah, it looks like we have a "want a technical degree with a university seal on the diploma" situation.

awkward2• 11 years ago

The proposal in the article is a digital media program focusing on applications of computer science.

jasode• 11 years ago

The journalist wrote from the perspective of the "computer science" curriculum being "wrong" or "not relevant" to real world skills those students wanted to learn.

However, the other perspective the journalist could have explained was that the students misunderstood what a "computer science" degree actually is. The Computer Science curricula grew out of the Mathematics department. That's why it has classes on topics like automata, algorithms, proofs and theorems. Studying those topics will seem very irrelevant when they notice other Javascript programmers earning $100k to make HTML elements blink on and off.

These students were really wanting a "programming" curriculum. Maybe "software engineering" instead of "computer science".

A person who wants to repair car engines could try for a degree in "mechanical engineering". There's no doubt the mechanical engineers who work at Ford/Toyota/BMW can replace a spark plug and change the oil but there will many theory classes that won't feel relevant to the daily work of a garage mechanic.

the_af4• 11 years ago

100% agreed! This paragraph is telling:

"For example, Temple’s computer science program still requires Calculus 1 and 2. It turns a lot of students off and isn’t really necessary to become a developer, Shi admits. These aren’t problems specific to Temple, he said. They plague most computer science programs."

There. Calculus may not be necessary to be a web developer (then again, I suspect even then it is, at least for some cases), but the purpose of a Computer Science education is not "to become a developer". What this person actually wanted was a programming school, and was disappointed when she didn't get exactly that.

jowiar3• 11 years ago

You seem to be blaming the student.

Did I know as a 17-year-old applying to college what the hell the difference was? No. Did I study CS? Yes. Was it the right decision? Probably not (though I did stay in it). And I had about every advantage in the world of being exposed to programming from when I was 5 or 6.

Maybe the craziest part of the US college system, and technical fields in particular, is that most people don't know what's available, and don't know what they're applying for, all the while they go somewhere between the cost of a car and a house into debt.

jkestner5• 11 years ago

Part of the problem is that the field moves faster than colleges. Kids who might be looking for a path to that career that they're aware of, try their best to find a fit. Computer Science is what all the job postings seem to want.

Goladus6• 11 years ago

* This paragraph is telling:*

What it tells me is that the journalist is using rhetoric to persuade you into thinking that the computer science program is badly designed, failing to serve poor students like Becca.

This writer's only sources for information about the computer science curriculum appear to be Becca and Dr. Justin Yi, the department chair. Your quote is from Yi, who follows up with this paragraph:

That’s because, he said, these types of academic programs were created to cater to an elite few. They weren’t tailored for the masses. As technology has started to touch every part of our lives, university programs haven’t caught up.

In other words, the program is designed to teach a smart, highly-motivated person how computers work and how to use them, which definitely includes programming and in no way precludes "becoming a developer".

jowiar3• 11 years ago

This isn't the students' fault, though. In industry, we're asking for a "Computer Science" major, and often times our hiring processes are very CS heavy, when for most of us it only covers a portion of the skills we need, and others we don't. It's sort of like if accounting firms were recruiting math majors, and hiring based on their theorem-proving skills.

0359B02149AB• 11 years ago

It's funny, I'm a senior software developer at Temple University, and I started working here just to be able to take classes at the college (I have my MSc in Comp Sci from Stevens Institute of Technology).

I don't understand what people want from computer science - no thinking? Computer science is awesome because it's hard and you can't just solve problems by beating them up with brute force combinations of things you can find on stackoverflow. Computer science is all thinking.

I'm also female, and this is one of the places I've been where I don't feel like an outsider all the time. I don't know what it's like around the students and professors as a general population. But plenty of my coworkers are students, and some are professors and some have gone off to be full time professors, so... just throwing in a perspective from the other side.

Jun8• 11 years ago

True, as stated by the quip "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes", which is mis-attributed to Dijsktra (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science) but still very much true I think.

The blame is not all on the student, though. It's on CS departments that present a vague picture of what they are doing. Some of these focus on mathematical aspects, some on AI, etc.

ohmyiv• 11 years ago

It seems to me that either her academic advisor wasn't knowledgable enough or the student didn't clearly communicate what she wanted from a program of study. She probably would have been happier had she went into Information Systems and Technology. There is a difference in goals between Computer Science and Information Systems and those differences are listed on Temple's CSIT website.

From Temple:

"Computer Science": Emphasis is on the more conceptual aspects of computing, especially as related to program design, and the study of computing systems, including hardware architecture and computer resource management.

"IS&T": Emphasis is on the design, analysis, development and implementation of systems and the underlying technologies that support this development.

http://www.temple.edu/cis/undergraduate/undergradcs/document...

A little more research by both the advisor and the student may have avoided a horribly titled article.

peckrob• 11 years ago

Maybe "software engineering" instead of "computer science".

This is not really any better, just different types of required courses.

At my alma mater, Auburn, the Software Engineering major is actually more rigorous than the Computer Science major. You have to take Cal 1-3, Engineering Physics 1 and 2, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations and Engineering Mechanics [0]. Basically, a lot of the engineering foundations that are shared with other, more physical engineering disciplines.

Computer Science, by comparison, only requires Cal 1 and 2 and Linear Algebra. You can also take an easier core science requirement (like Geology) and, generally, have more freedom to choose electives. [1]

I've thought for awhile now that there needs to be a new major that crosses disciplines between engineering and liberal arts. You need to have some of the math and programming foundations to be a good developer that can move beyond simple entry-level type foundations. But a lot of what I struggle with now is "soft skills": design, user experience, copy writing, documentation, etc. Almost like a blending of computer science and fine arts.

I would love to see someone address this need, because in the modern world where real everyday people use our software (not just scientists and engineers), the latter is just as important as the former.

[0] http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeof...

[1] http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeof...

DIVx0• 11 years ago

Student wants to learn the vocational art of programming, discovers Computer Science is not about programming, drops out. Sounds like everything went the way it should have.

I majored in CS and there were no end of students complaining about discreet math or analyzing algorithms when all they wanted was to learn what ever the hot language was at the time.

Schools don't need to change CS programs, they need to better market an alternative software development curriculum.

gambiter• 11 years ago

The related issue, though, is that many job listings specify a CS degree for routine things like web development.

Goladus6• 11 years ago

Student wants to learn the vocational art of programming, discovers Computer Science is not about programming, drops out.

If you read more closely, you'll see that's probably not what happened. She didn't drop out because computer science isn't about programming, she dropped out because she had no self-motivation and no real direction. She found the college environment difficult and boring and she found her advisor useless. She was far more enthusiastic about working for the (likely) charismatic, inspiring leaders at Techgirlz.

larrik• 11 years ago

I've spent a lot of time helping to hire coworkers for a rather good remote position, and having worked with the ones that passed all of our filters and also accepted the position. It's still a bit early, but I've found that the difference between someone who actually got a proper CS degree, and someone who learned to "code" on their own is pretty stark.

The fact is that calculus, algorithms, data modelling, and the like are often very relevant to programming once you are past the entry level positions.

erroneousfunk• 11 years ago

I don't have a CS degree, but even in entry level positions, it crops up when you least expect it. My company gathers data off of truck engines, with a data sample every .3 seconds. The data samples contain things like instantaneous "fuel rate," "vehicle speed" and other "rate" values. If the manager says to me "erroneousfunk, I want the cumulative fuel usage values over time, in a graph" I need to know that they're looking for the second derivative of the fuel rate, and how to model and summarize that data in the database appropriately for a fast processing and lookups across any combination of companies/drivers/trucks/date ranges they can think of.

Voila! Calculus, algorithms, and data modeling!

Or perhaps I need a job title upgrade :-p

fintler• 11 years ago

"Many of her friends in their third and fourth year in Temple’s computer science department haven’t written a line of code outside of basic Java, she said."

Temple CS '08 grad here. They had us writing C, lisp, and x86 asm (simple multiple precision arithmetic) in the first year. I think she's exaggerating a bit.

Java was introduced in the third and fourth years when they started on higher level data structures and abstractions.

scott_s• 11 years ago

This exchange in the comments between another CS student at Temple and the subject of the article supports your observation: http://technical.ly/philly/2015/05/12/computer-science-dropo...

Goladus6• 11 years ago

Yes, it is a poor article by traditional standards. It appears the writer did no research at all other than her interview with the department chair (who conveniently appears to agree with the narrative, although it's hard to say whether quotes are taken out of context)

edit: ps, where are the press hits in this article? http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

wyager• 11 years ago

If you just want to be a code monkey, you probably don't need to go to college. You don't need a college education to build web pages.

If you want to do anything more interesting than that (AI, embedded systems, HPC, etc.), then college may prove useful.

Also, this person's experience of barely programming by senior year is highly atypical. Many CS colleges today don't even have pure theory courses until a few years in.

rplst8• 11 years ago

CS programs at American universities run the gamut. A well balanced CS program will teach fundamentals/theory and also application of that knowledge. Perhaps Temple's CS program is heavy on the theory in the early years (or even through all levels). That does not mean that CS or even this specific CS program is not relevant, and I'd go as far as saying "extremely relevant" to creating software.

I see many folks who graduated with a degree in something other than CS that do well in the software industry. That said, I also see fundamental mistakes made frequently in the design and architecture of software (and I'm not talking about ignoring common design patterns). For relatively small sizes of N this is not a problem, but once something needs to scale (which is often the case if your creation becomes successful) then the proverbial fit hits the shan. A CS degree doesn't necessarily solve this, experience plays a large part too.

I think someone who is not yet a member of an industry dismissing a curriculum out of hand is pretty foolish though.

Goladus6• 11 years ago

Many of her friends in their third and fourth year in Temple’s computer science department haven’t written a line of code outside of basic Java, she said.

What. You can't just make a claim like that without justification. In 5 minutes of search, I found a "sample course sheet," for a Junior CS major, where the fall semester recommends "CIS 3238 Software Design [1]. One syllabus[2] is available from a professor's website[3], and includes this project description:

The goal of the project phase of this course is for students to gain experience in contributing to an open source project. The nature of the contribution may be to contribute an enhancement or to fix an open problem. Students may work alone or in a team of up-to 3 students. While project work will be concentrated to the last half of the course, you need to select the project early and join the developer’s mailing list.

If you are a computer science major and are not writing code, there should be some explanation. A journalist should try to find answers to those questions.

[1] http://www.temple.edu/cis/undergraduate/undergradcs/CS_BS.ht...

[2] http://www.cis.temple.edu/~wolfgang/CIS%203238%20Software%20...

[3] http://www.cis.temple.edu/~wolfgang/

crimsonalucard• 11 years ago

Yes computer science is "different" from software engineering, but not all computer science curriculums are purely theoretical. At least in ucla, all theoretical classes have several hands on labs. I finished UCLA as an electrical engineer but the computer science courses I took taught me basic skills that I needed to become a good programmer.

IMO, I think most university curriculums involve this sort of hybrid education that involve labs/projects combined with theoretical lectures. I'm guessing the type of courses taught in Temple are not the norm.

jwinkle• 11 years ago

Women...

Why this woman dropped out of Temple’s computer science program

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