On a brother’s suicide: ‘I wish I had never told him to go to counseling’

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/04/30/i-wish-i-had-never-told-my-brother-to-get-help-from-our-college-when-he-was-suicidal/?tid=sm_fb

by aburan28 • 11 years ago

98 101 11 years ago

washingtonpost.com

nailer• 11 years ago

Single sentence extract:

He goes to the counselling centre but instead of offering any help, they call my mom to come down and then at 5 p.m. that day, hold a meeting with a dean and five other staff where they promptly dismiss my brother from William and Mary and ban him from College grounds.

andrey-p• 11 years ago

That was the bit that really stood out for me. Even if one could argue that they sent him off in order to take a break and recover before continuing his studies, this

and ban him from College grounds

is ridiculous.

eep_opp2• 11 years ago

I don't understand that part either. I wonder if the councilor saw a potential to not only harm himself but others and that's why it was included. I can understand the school not wanting to be the next stage for another tragedy similar to Virginia Tech.

And had they not dismissed him and he continued on and something to that effect were to happen would we not see stories about friends and families of victims asking about why they would have allowed an obviously deeply disturbed person to remain on campus?

Maybe the counselor thought (erroneously?) this particular problem was too big to handle?

Red_Tarsius• 11 years ago

My thoughts as well.

The final response of the school to Cassie is also saddening and revealing of a culture devoid of any empathy.

erroneousfunk• 11 years ago

I think that was perhaps the best William and Mary could do without commenting on that particular student's case at all, or revealing any personal information, which they wouldn't be allowed to do.

MrZongle2• 11 years ago

Agreed. It read as if written by legal robots, far more interested in avoiding words that could possibly imply any sort of responsibility.

kosma• 11 years ago

How is this even legal? I can't even imagine this happening in Europe; you can't dismiss someone from school without legal basis. Is it different in America?

k-mcgrady• 11 years ago

Isn't this how employment there works too?

pjc50• 11 years ago

There have been a couple of cases of whistleblowers being fired on bogus mental health grounds from the EU itself. Although I can't remember names at the moment.

mox1• 11 years ago

Are you saying that in Europe colleges cannot dismiss anyone without a "legal basis" (ie they have committed a crime?)

If so that is crazy..Cheating on a test is not "illegal." There are a whole host of things that are "against school policy" but not illegal.

I find this very hard to believe....

madamepsychosis• 11 years ago

I live in Europe and something similar happened to one of my friends. Abuses of power are everywhere.

Thriptic2• 11 years ago

Assuming that his contact was only with a mental health professional, his dismissal strikes me as illegal and unethical. It is absolutely illegal in the United States for a physician to release medical records to anyone without the patient's consent, and mental health records are generally treated as especially sacred. If that is indeed what happened, the college would be exposing themselves to a lot of risk.

I would highly encourage anyone feeling depressed to seek counseling, and for the most part school mental health services are a safe and welcoming place to find help. With that being said, DO NOT share information about your mental health status with non-medical staff at school, as they are not bound by the same rules as physicians and can act on that information. My (unsubstantiated and hopeful) guess is that this is likely what actually led to this student's dismissal.

hammock• 11 years ago

It's called involuntary withdrawal and this is not the first time it's happened in a US college

http://www.splc.org/blog/splc/2013/04/transparency-tuesday-c...

kw71• 11 years ago

I'm not surprised if it's legal. W&M staff have a lot of control over the legal system in Virginia - they practically set Supreme Court policy, which controls lower courts too; they control the Virginia State Bar; they have a lot of influence on the state legislature which set the laws of the state.

Virginia is no hero for mentally ill people. Some people are homeless and without income because of mental illness, and until this year, the only "medicaid" available for those people (who did not care for children) were sterilization services (see "Plan First" at VA DMAS.) This means that the eugenics program against mentally ill people that Virginia is known for is still ongoing - it's merely only optional now. Virginia has closed the majority of their state mental institutions and leave these cases to be dealt with by the criminal justice system: basically the theory is to let them devolve into criminal activity then send them to prison.

I think that some mental illness is the result of child abuse. Although child abuse and neglect have been statutorily defined as criminal acts, they are not meaningfully prosecuted in practice. Since the mid-1970's, it has been the law that a wide classification of government employees, from school employees to police officers, are bound by law to report any suspicions of child abuse, but in practice none of them do that, and until several years ago, these employees were liable to no criminal penalties for ignoring that law. I have tried to find cases of people prosecuted for violating this, and have found none.

I think that WMU's influence over the state government is ridiculous and the results of it are disgusting. The school does not deserve its stellar reputation. I would not feel the least bit of sorrow if it were dissolved.

snowy• 11 years ago

Why was he dismissed and banned? Surly not for having suicidal thoughts. Did something else go on here that is been omitted? Did they see him as a threat to other students?

If so you can't really blame them.

baldfat4• 11 years ago

I worked in Student Life as a Resident Director. The power of Lawyer is extremely strong and the fear of litigation is very high.

Our college handled this differently and perhaps it was due to my strong advocate since my brother took his own life when I was a kid. We required hospitalization for the hospital to evaluate and than we would work one on one to make sure they were following doctor's orders in terms of counseling and medications. This all had to be done secretly so that students privacy wasn't stolen and that students would know it was a safe place.

As a Resident Director we would directly contact the professors and arrange a way for the student to make up their work and to complete the classes. usually the students would have a lot of abstinence and this would cause an issue, but we would always try our best and set up things in place for the next semester if need be and with financial assistance (AKA not charge them for the class credits a second time).

justonepost• 11 years ago

Couple of more sentences: Almost 40% of the students who access our services at the Counseling Center report having had suicidal thoughts. The vast majority of those students continue to be seen at the Counseling Center and remain in school.

Likely there was something extremely dramatic about this case that made the college believe he was a clear threat to himself and/or others if he stayed at the college.

pluma5• 11 years ago

He was speaking to the Counseling Center, not the college administration.

In what world is banning someone from college the right approach to handle someone with obvious mental issues disclosing his problems in a counseling center?

If his situation was "more extreme", the first course of action should be to escalate the situation to more qualified, not the college administration (who are neither qualified nor relevant). You can still kick someone out after they're in professional treatment.

It's extreme irresponsible to not just refuse treatment but actually measurably make their situation worse. You might as well hand them a razor and tell them "yes, you're right, take this and go kill yourself" while you're at it.

smrtinsert• 11 years ago

I read that and my jaw dropped. They should investigate legal options. I can't understand how they don't understand how that might push a student even closer to suicide - college is your world when you are in it.

mcguire• 11 years ago

On the one hand, it's possible the counsellor concluded that he was a threat to others at the College---an immediate threat, which would require an immediate response.

On the other hand, assuming he went to the counselling center first thing in the morning, that's roughly nine hours minus travel time, scheduling, and all the other steps involved in this kind of decision. I find it difficult to believe that a counsellor met with him for more than an hour.

Further: "My brother is then taken home and the next day starts at our local mental health facility. He voluntarily enters a residential program, which is very hard ordeal for both him and my parents. However, he does well and is released to out-patient status on Monday, March 30, 2010." The residential program released him after less than two weeks. I suspect they would not do so if they believed him to be a threat.

So, why did the College initially deny him re-admittance?

Lawtonfogle2• 11 years ago

On the one hand, it's possible the counsellor concluded that he was a threat to others at the College---an immediate threat, which would require an immediate response.

And they may have protected the other students at the cost of selling out the integrity of therapy in general. Think of a judge, given the smoking gun needed to convict a murderer that was obtained by unconstitutional means. He must let the murderer go because, while releasing the murder introduces risks to the public, the risk of not upholding the Constitution is even greater.

As it stands, I would no more advise someone to see a therapist than I would advise them to tell everything to a defense lawyer in a country where the defense lawyer tells everything to the prosecutor and it is all admissible in court.

baldfat4• 11 years ago

Such a HORRIBLE TITLE. It was not to counseling at the College. The college threw him out of the college grounds with a meeting with a dean and 5 staff and the students mother.

My brother killed himself 35 years ago last week. GO GET HELP! Go speak with someone and go to a doctor or counselor. I love my brother and miss him everyday, but suicide is the biggest middle finger to everyone you know and love. It hurts the people you never wanted to hurt. Please get help not just for yourself but for those who love you.

AnDowNS• 11 years ago

Yes, go get help. But, as with HR, school psychologists exist --at least in part-- to protect the school. Finding your own psychologist may help ensure that they are motivated by your best interests, not the schools.

emodendroket5• 11 years ago

That's probably prohibitively expensive for many students.

baldfat4• 11 years ago

Check yourself into a hospital and get things started that way. The doctors, nurses and case workers will help you get everything setup for you and you will have the ability to get the required help right away.

But don't go down that road alone. let someone in your life know you are having these problems and are getting help. Being alone on that journey is difficult. The big thing is taking that risk with being vulnerable with someone.

rickyc091• 11 years ago

The issue is that at his age, no one wants to help. It's easy to say go help, but when you're friends are suppose to be a pillar of support, it's rough. Sure, you have family, but you're family will always be there. What you need to be is surrounded by people who care for you.

My brother went missing more than six years ago, presumably committed suicide. Going back through his emails and chat history, he constantly expressed the fact he was depressed and considered suicide. Instead, all his friends turned their backs on him and told him to talk to someone else. What they should have said instead is, how can I help?

pluma5• 11 years ago

Friends can't help. They're not qualified to help and they aren't impartial. Seek professional help. If you accidentally cut off a limb, you don't expect your friends to be able to take care of you either -- sure, they can offer first aid, but that's only meant to stabilize you until someone more qualified can take over.

If normal people can't afford professional help, there's something extremely wrong with your healthcare system. Then again, this is the United States we're talking about -- and socialised health care still seems to be a new idea to them.

emodendroket5• 11 years ago

What? The article says that that meeting, where he was dismissed, was a result of his seeking counseling.

eli4• 11 years ago

The mistake was seeking counseling at a college. You just shouldn't do that. I think many students would be surprised to find they have no doctor-patient confidentiality and, in fact, there are several documented instances of colleges using medical records or therapy notes against students as part of disciplinary hearings or to defend against lawsuits. That shouldn't be allowed and I hope someone fixes it.

But I think the answer is to seek help off-campus. Not to avoid getting help.

appleflaxen• 11 years ago

This title is terrible.

The real point is that the policies of William and Mary might lack a certain degree of humanity, and that, as a human being, Ian Smith-Christmas was utterly unsupported by an institution whose mission is helping young adults develop into well-rounded individuals.

After reading the reply from the VP of student affairs, I am fairly willing to believe it. Rather than acknowledge the core point of the narrative, the VP replies with "people are complicated; here are some numbers" that might or might not mean anything.

phkahler2• 11 years ago

The author is trying not to place any blame on the school, but they clearly deserve some.

baldfat4• 11 years ago

The title makes it out that counseling he received was what harmed him making it appear that getting help was a bad idea.

superuser2• 11 years ago

William and Mary is not unique in this regard. A similar story from Yale circulated last year; this has happened to nearly a dozen people (that I know about) at UChicago.

Expelling depressed students is a publicly nationwide "best practice" in higher ed administration apparently.

lasdfas2• 11 years ago

I don't see how W&M did anything wrong here. It is very common for students to take time off because of mental health issues. Especially if he was at risk of committing suicide. I know several students at my college who were forced to take time off and it ultimately helped them. They didn't have to worry about the stress of school.

The school didn't call to see how he was doing? I have never heard any school doing that. He was only out of school for less than 2 months.

The last suggestion that he killed himself because he was not readmitted in a timely matter. Remember, de was admitted less than a month later. This wasn't some year long process.

It is a very sad story and the sister is looking for someone to blame, but I see the school did nothing wrong here. The implication that you shouldn't seek college counseling for fear of taking time off is very dangerous. It is important for people to seek counseling as soon as they feel they need it.

onion2k• 11 years ago

The reaction of the college was all about covering themselves rather than helping a student. Banning someone from the college grounds is not helping them take time off - it's making sure nothing happens that you might be held responsible for. Legally and technically they might not have done anything "wrong", but morally and socially they couldn't have been farther from doing the right thing.

loopbit• 11 years ago

For me, that final letter shows how little they care about their students and how all that process was about covering their asses.

lasdfas2• 11 years ago

If the student is at risk of suicide, there are times when they need to seek professional help away from school. He could be a danger to himself or others. I think you are making it black and white. "If the student wants to stay at school, let them." It is not as simple as that. Think about it from the other perspective. If he killed himself at school and they knew he had serious mental health issues, people would be way more up and arms. "The school did nothing!"

detaro• 11 years ago

There is a difference between allowing someone time off and what I would describe as "create a lot of fuss to make sure if something happens it is as far as possible from the school". Surely forbidding someone from his known environment (which might be harmful to him, but also provide support, and I have a feeling they didn't have time to figure that out exactly) isn't the perfect first response.

UK-AL2• 11 years ago

Lets be honest, this was just a way to avoid any legal responsibilities, or any other mess coming from it happening on/in the college.

talmand4• 11 years ago

Is that wrong?

UK-AL2• 11 years ago

A lot of things that seem like they should be helpful, are in-fact just ass covering for the organisation.

HR, Health & Safety officers, etc

cmdrfred4• 11 years ago

If we are going to be looking into what William and Mary clouda shoulda woulda done to prevent this isn't it only fair to do the same in regards to this individuals own family? I mean as this is written by a member of said family don't we need a counterpoint? Also with all the people saying that W&M are just 'covering their asses', do you believe that they should be held liable for the intentional actions of their adult students?

Lorento• 11 years ago

They probably would be held liable, hence why they immediately kicked him off campus. Their response isn't just covering their asses, they make no attempt to even justify their actions, nor to deny them. They only say how good they are and then blame the family!

cmdrfred4• 11 years ago

So if I get upset and kill myself because a women rejected me, it's her fault?

mcherm• 11 years ago

as this is written by a member of said family don't we need a counterpoint?

I overlooked it when I first read the article, but after the family member's story is a response by the vice president for student affairs. Read it to see their perspective.

with all the people saying that W&M are just 'covering their asses', do you believe that they should be held liable for the intentional actions of their adult students?

I don't understand what you are saying here. I suspect that W&M's actions (like immediately banning the student from campus, and resisting having him return even after receiving a doctor's bill of good mental health) were motivated by "covering their asses". Of course I do not believe that W&M should be held liable for the actions of their students... nor have I seen anyone suggesting that. Did I misunderstand what you were trying to say?

cmdrfred4• 11 years ago

I don't think you can be considered to be 'covering your ass' on a situation that you are not liable for. Please explain that to me.

arfliw2• 11 years ago

I have a friend currently struggling hard with this. They know that going to the school for help is not an option for this exact reason. They are going to be looking out for the school first and the student second. That's really unfortunate because the school has everything in place to be able to help the most.

I'm at a loss for how to help, beyond just being there as much as possible. They are doing all they can to get better, seeing a psychiatrist, taking medications etc -- but they are still having suicidal thoughts on a daily basis.

Jtsummers2• 11 years ago

Be present for them. Just having a friend present in my life literally stopped me from ending it. In my case I remembered the feeling I had when a girlfriend had tried to kill herself a few days after a date with me. I didn't want to cause that pain to my friend. This gave me enough pause to get rid of my means of suicide and go get help. Be open with your friend, but don't pry. If they don't want to talk about something trying to force them to may only cause them to push you away. If you've had any issues (physical, mental) that you haven't discussed with them, considering opening up to them about it one day. If they know that you trust them with your issues, it may help them to talk more openly to you about theirs. This isn't 100%, it doesn't work for everyone, but finally having a close friend I felt I could confide in helped me turn myself around.

I hope things work out for both of you. And please understand, whatever decision your friend makes is theirs. You can only help them so much.

arfliw2• 11 years ago

Thanks.

whatever decision your friend makes is theirs

That's the hardest part. I know that logically but they are alive now. And I know there is a real chance they could wind up taking their own life at some point. I want to fucking prevent that from happening. It's a helpless feeling knowing that I can't. At least not with any degree of certainty.

im3w1l• 11 years ago

This will cause people to suffer in silence rather than seek help. Her brother may not even be the only casualty.

GolfyMcG2• 11 years ago

I can recall several people from my own college experience who sound just like the brother in the article. They seemed happy on the surface but when in an intimate setting, reality came out. The intimate setting for us was our fraternity meetings where brothers would bring up that they were have personal problems. Frequently they would share a lot details. I think it was probably one of the best examples of a community coming together to help people without getting recognition and wasn't all just drinking and partying.

Something I've always wondered though is where this stemmed from. I find it unusual that both children from this one family happened to have problems with depression. Perhaps it's a coincidence but I often times wonder if depression really stems from hardship or if it's something less complicated than that. Many of the people who talked about having mental health issues in our fraternity were VERY well off. In fact, between all the people I've known in my life to struggle with mental health the most common attribute I remember was having two parents that worked despite having the means for one of them to stay home. Perhaps my observations are entirely coincidental but it's always seemed that these people needed more attention than anything else. As a result, just having a place for people to talk openly was immensely valuable. Our university had something called "A Place to Talk" where they were trained to be active listeners and not give advice. It's hard to actively participate in conversation without expressing your opinion but that's what they did. I really think they saved lives and probably money on a regular basis.

blt2• 11 years ago

I feel strongly that depression runs in families. a majority of my family has been depressed at one time despite no major hardships or tragedies. I don't know if it's genetic or based on learned attitudes, but the idea that you need a good reason to be depressed is completely wrong.

GolfyMcG2• 11 years ago

You seem to find the idea of finding a "good reason" to be depressed a bad thing. I disagree. A lot of the skepticism around depression (and most mental health problems) stems from a lack of concrete knowledge about the cause and effect. We should be striving to use science and objective reasoning to determine the real causes of depression otherwise we won't be able to (1) accurately determine who really needs help in a world of limited resources and (2) provide a real solution. We should try to be understanding in the meantime but we shouldn't just accept that anyone can be depressed if they say so.

stegosaurus• 11 years ago

I don't think we're ever going to get to the bottom of mental illness until people in positions of power develop empathy.

Firing someone, banning them from campus, chasing them for masses of debt, and so on and so forth are things that make people desperate. Until we can fix that, this is just going to happen again and again.

And no, that doesn't mean living in some sort of happy joy world in which everyone keeps their job forever and passes all of their exams.

It means living in a world in which failure doesn't mean complete loss of everything. A world which isn't 'get rich or die trying'.

emodendroket5• 11 years ago

Well that's cruel and insane.

blt2• 11 years ago

a person close to me had a similar experience in high school. she attempted suicide, and afterwards the school wanted nothing to do with her. they didn't let her go on the class trip. they say they are protecting the other students. clearly fear of litigation is a factor. but I also think the institutions don't want "people like that" in their culture. they would prefer to continue believing their institution is made of hard working positive people. lack of empathy is the ultimate cause.

cozzyd• 11 years ago

I wonder if there's academic literature on efficacy of university mental health policies. Not all families are supportive or understanding of mental illness and the ensuing disruption of someone's routine can easily make things worse. What good is a counseling service if there's a non-trivial chance that they'll tear what's left of your life fabric apart?

On a brother’s suicide: ‘I wish I had never told him to go to counseling’

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