The prisoners trying to code their way to a better life

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-31359126

by hachiya • 11 years ago

65 55 11 years ago

gambiting2• 11 years ago

Except that - if I understand how US justice system works correctly - they won't be hired by anyone because they have a sentence in their books. Which is awful.

Sirenos• 11 years ago

Are you talking about the social stigma or is there something in the law that makes it difficult for ex-convicts to find jobs?

thefreeman2• 11 years ago

Felons are required to disclose on their job applications that they have a prior felony, and what it was they did. This has the effect of making it extremely difficult for them to find work, especially in white collar industries.

Edit: Apparently I am wrong, they aren't technically required to disclose it. However, in practice, every job application I have ever seen has had the question.

gambiting2• 11 years ago

There was an article on HN recently about someone who had a Masters Degree in computer science + very good qualifications, interviewed successfully for several companies,but they all refused after they have found out he spent a year in jail for a non-violent offence.

throwaway_xl5• 11 years ago

Maybe they could get work via odesk or a similar site?

clamprecht• 11 years ago

There isn't a law that says you can't hire felons as programmers, but there is a stigma. In some industries, such as banking or military contractors, there are probably regulations that would prevent felons from being hired.

As a felon, I was rejected from an internship at IBM, but I was able to get hired at startup-type companies.

desdiv3• 11 years ago

they won't be hired by anyone because they have a sentence in their books

I think you meant that some people prefers not to hire them, which drives their prospective wages down and, in turn, makes them more attractive candidates to people will hire them, like me.

Slartibreakfast5• 11 years ago

Nothing like taking advantage of someone who has nothing to lose, I mean - what could possibly go wrong.

FamousShoes2• 11 years ago

The justice system in the US isn't really in play with people after they've done their time; when you're done you're done. However, the US civilian culture is different and the catch is that few US states' laws put any limit on discriminating against people with felony convictions, whether it be for a home today, a loan tomorrow, or a job fifty years later.

Over the past twenty years, I've been told by many folks in the US tech industry holding unskilled positions that non-white-collar convicts should never be given jobs again, should do all their time in solitary, shouldn't have books or access to entertainment, or should be beaten with stones or bats (and a few variations on this theme of torture-as-penance, always by women oddly.) Regardless of whether those attitudes are right or wrong, it's important to understand they are there and seem to be commonly held by the folks standing at the gates. And, for people who've committed felonies and done their time to understand they can either get very creative in how they adapt, or reoffend.

To bring this rambling back to the topic at hand: can "felons" get a tech job? Sure, but it's unlikely where those attitudes have had time to become invisibly entrenched, e.g., in human resources' workflow. So, as another poster said, startups are a real possibility. But really, any company where paperwork or blind-policy isn't in play--especially as a first step, e.g., a cookie-cutter job application--is a possibility. Another approach is to create the job, something almost uniquely possible in tech.

In short, it's tough, doable, and I think great because people can use it to walk far from the scenery of recidivism, figuratively and literally.

mijoharas2• 11 years ago

Wow, learning to code without being able to refer to stackoverflow or anything on the internet... does that count as cruel and unusual punishment?

barrkel• 11 years ago

It's how I learned to code. You depend on good documentation much more - though offline documentation used to be better, these days you're lucky if you get more than the source.

It also makes you more independent when debugging issues no-one else online has seen. You become unafraid of digging into the next level down to find out what's going on.

wlesieutre• 11 years ago

these days you're lucky if you get more than the source.

We don't need no docstrings, the source should be self documenting!

davycro• 11 years ago

Same. I learned from library books w/o Internet.

maccard• 11 years ago

I learned with the assistance of StackOverflow and Google-Fu for blogs and things, but now in work we use a handful of propitiatory libraries, with no information available online for them, and now have to work with only the documentation (and granted, direct support if I need it). It's really made me a better developer to default to the Docs rather than SO.

3am• 11 years ago

I know you're joking, but to put how progressive the program is in context: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2015/02/12/south_car...

mijoharas2• 11 years ago

Gotta agree, all I was thinking while reading it was that it sounds like a wonderful program. :)

dagw• 11 years ago

You kids have it far too easy :)

I started learning about C from books long before I ever had access to a C compiler.

jrochkind12• 11 years ago

Some of us are old enough that that IS how we learned to code, before most people had heard or had access to the internet! Of course, we weren't learning how to code for the web.

fit2rule• 11 years ago

Its a perfectly valid way of learning to code. In fact, there is much to be said for those who make the effort to be productive without needing to refer to external sources for assistance - this truly is a valid way to do computers. I've forced myself to go off-line for many a debug/coding marathon, and it really works the more you do it. Of course its hard, or else it wouldn't be worth doing. The more you do it though, the easier it gets.

Another thing about having a sources-only, no "google-fu" possible/only "local-scope-fu" policy, is that it tends to defeat the cruft. The bloat. The near-infinite gooze that I just know will be the inevitable subject of the response: "software is too complicated for one person to know everything about it, there's just too much of it, etc."

(Of course, its a scope issue. You mathematicians need not flame me in response. I know you don't need to know how to write a compiler to get real work done. There are no absolutes; that is as true of software, unfortunately or fortunately, as everything else..)

thefreeman2• 11 years ago

I actually think this is a great idea. While it is true they likely wouldn't be able to find a job in the industry with this training, I am sure some of them will come out with enough skill to do things like bid on freelance projects on elance.com.

It really doesn't take a lot of projects to make equivalent and greater money then the type of minimum wage or manual labor jobs many ex-cons would end up working instead (or even petty crime).

nailer• 11 years ago

I think it's a great idea too. If the programme was good enough, they might be able to find jobs in the industry. Consider if:

- They have 10,000 hours experience

- They have StackOverflow and Kahn Academy and MIT access

- They speak English as a first language (likely in the US)

I'd pay someone like that.

zkhalique2• 11 years ago

Well, finally. I mean, prisoners are kept without computers in their jail cells usually, bored out of their minds. Instead, they could be reformed by giving them useful work!

AustinG08• 11 years ago

My brother is in prison until 2018 on drug related charges. He was transferred to a for profit prison that has a reputation for gang violence, but fortunately all the non violent offenders from the state he was transferred from are kept in a separate wing. He has an Xbox One and gets to play games all day. He also reads a lot and works out. He works 40 hours a week and that pays him about $9/wk. They won't let them have computers, let alone internet access. I wish they would. It's strange what they can and can't have. They can buy a Nintendo 3DS but can't buy any games for it. I wonder who came up with that one.

zkhalique2• 11 years ago

It's truly ridiculous. Finland has much less recidivism: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why...

FamousShoes2• 11 years ago

If anyone has information on how to help with or reach out to this or similar programs, please post what you've got!

[Edit] Here's an article with more comprehensive information, including the program's origins and the organizations behind it: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/11/how-18-inmates-at...

bitslayer• 11 years ago

This is great, but there is a much greater need, simple literacy. http://www.invisiblechildren.org/2010/11/18/75-of-inmates-ar...

mariusz79• 11 years ago

Maybe The Mafia, or some other criminal organization could sponsor this training. This way they could create a nice, steady pool of applicants for the White Collar Crime Division :)

fifthesteight• 11 years ago

one of the best programmers i've ever worked with spent his time teaching himself php. he was a bright kid who made a stupid decision, but didnt let that stop him. we worked together for about 2 years and he ended up getting a couple great offers and now balls way, way harder than me. i have so much respect for him.

ljd• 11 years ago

There is one path for HackReactor to make money on this, they can act as recruiters between prisoners and companies.

I know as an employer of developers, that I would hire someone with a felony because I know their introductory salary will be lower but their skill set should be the same. Which may sound over opportunistic, but it's just economics, fewer offers mean lower initial pay. The downside is if they become excellent developers it'll be hard to keep them at the lower salary, even if they do have a felony.

mgadams3• 11 years ago

Probably true, but I don't think the motivation on this is for Hack Reactor to make money... there would be much easier ways to make money that don't involve prisoners if that's what they were after.

felon_developer• 11 years ago

I'm self taught, and had 2-3 years of a career before being incarcerated. I was incarcerated for 6 years. During that time, I had a few books. Other than a couple of basic computer courses, no access to computers. Just did my best to keep my mind in it.

EDIT: I guess a new account can't comment more than once (makes sense) so I'd like to address the background check issue: I've had numerous jobs, where I disclosed honestly. My felony was a very serious one.

Now I'm quite successful (making well over market; a regular poster on HN; throwaway account is obvious). I recently hired a released inmate who I knew could code though he hadn't ever really done it (he showed me some code he wrote down in TI-BASIC). This guy was locked up 15 years, but within a few months, he's learning as fast or faster than any random person.

jackmaney6• 11 years ago

Honest question: why were you hired?

jkot• 11 years ago

San Quentin state prison in California has begun a ground-breaking programme to teach prisoners how to code.

What is so ground-breaking on that? Any normal country will some sort of education to their prisoners.

jrochkind12• 11 years ago

In most U.S. prisons, prisoners are denied access to computers at all, and especially to the internet, as a general principle.

As of a couple years ago, there is a program that offers monitored email to some prisoners in U.S. prisons. Email only.

Not only are there no educational programs involving computers, but prisoners are specifically disallowed from using computers for purposes like learning to code.

Now, I'm not saying the U.S. is a "normal country".

sethrin• 11 years ago

I had the idea of wanting to teach programming in a prison, but it seemed to have the same requirements as teaching anywhere else: a degree, preferably in education, preferably a master's. I'm self taught and don't have a degree, so it sounds like it's not really an option for me. Does anyone have more information about how one would go about doing this, perhaps on a volunteer basis?

The prisoners trying to code their way to a better life

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