Declaring War on Adderall

https://medium.com/@nootrobox/declaring-war-on-adderall-39c5fe20d1e7

by geoffwoo • 11 years ago

34 22 11 years ago

geoffwoo2• 11 years ago

If you'd like to join us on our war against adderall, please support us at our Indiegogo campaign here: igg.me/at/sprint

We're around to answer any questions / concerns as well!

pavel_lishin• 11 years ago

What sort of testing has been done on the L-theanine + caffeine combo? I see that the FDA has approved both of them as safe, but what about the effectiveness?

geoffwoo2• 11 years ago

We care about safety first and effectiveness second. Here are some informational reads about the L-theanine + caffeine combo.

https://nootrobox.com/theanine

http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/abs/10.1179/147683010X1261146...

https://nootrobox.com/assets/2008-owen-b0b4e2568156b1c5a8574...

shkkmo• 11 years ago

You appear to be advocating for long term, daily use. What evidence do you have for your claim that this is "safe & responsible"? I don't see any side effects listed and I don't see any studies on this specific combination of ingredients.

tmd• 11 years ago

Take no offense, I sympathize with the general idea, but aren't you overselling this a little bit?

I've had no contact with Adderal but I highly doubt a dietary supplement essentially equivalent to ~10 cups of black tea could be an alternative for amphetamines. I sometimes drink a big mug of tea a couple of times a day and, according to a rough estimate, possibly get around that amount of caffeine+L-theanine.

I see that you're trying to attract Adderal-using college students but aren't you afraid they're going to try your product and quickly conclude that Adderal is better?

notacoward• 11 years ago

Lots of energy, little coherency. Pretty much the kind of writing typical of Adderall users. Also spam.

sosuke• 11 years ago

I agree the article is high energy, almost exhausting to read, and bounces around considerably.

Declaring war on Adderall is stupid, but saying you want to create a less impactful alternative is commendable. However I don't like the promotion of one product by saying another is evil, we've got enough of that going around. Adderall isn't evil, drug abuse is a problem, these can both be true.

After all the work it took making mental conditions legitimate I'm always on the skeptical side. Just 2 generations ago it was a very ugly thing to have depression, ADD/ADHD or anything requiring medication to the point where I still see adults from that age look down on their now adult children. Even themselves sometimes, taking medication, saying it works, then feeling guilty to the point of discontinuing even though they know the outcome.

Disclaimer: I take medicine, it just makes me feel normal and for that I am happy. Don't screw with my only recently (decades) socially acceptable treatment.

solve• 11 years ago

Just curious, what are these permanent side effects that the article is talking about?

acadien• 11 years ago

For one thing Adderall slightly increases your blood pressure and heart rate. That can have serious cardiovascular side effects in the long run.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2690554/

danmaz74• 11 years ago

TL;DR: Adderall is bad, we need better legal nootropics.

Very confusing and repetitive article BTW. Maybe the author didn't find the drug for himself.

jasonlotito• 11 years ago

So, this isn't a "war on Adderall", but really about creating an alternative for those that are drug abusers. As someone who has ADHD, has a prescription for an alternative to Adderall that is not addicting, I see "war on Adderall" and read it as "war on Wheelchairs."

Zigurd2• 11 years ago

It is strange they should compare the safety of their non-prescription nootropic to Tylenol, which is a particularly hazardous over-the-counter drug.

Secondly, you can get L-Theanine readily and inexpensively in the US. This crowdfunding campaign seems to be a marketing exercise for something already sold by multiple supplement makers. L-Theanine also appears to be less hazardous than Tylenol.

bdm4• 11 years ago

Tylenol may be "hazardous" when abused, but doesn't it say something that it remains over-the-counter? It suggests to me that the benefits outweigh the risks, and the same could be true of a nootropic.

To call it a "marketing exercise" glosses over all of the important subtlety. Identifying a brand, messaging, form factor, and specific combination of ingredients to appeal to mass market is non-trivial. Isn't Red Bull just a marketing exercise? What about Chobani and Muscle Milk? The original Apple computers were just a "marketing exercise" around the Homebrew Computing Club, packaging up things that were already available, but doing so elegantly and building a trustworthy brand. There's considerable value in that.

Zigurd2• 11 years ago

You could say the same about potato salad.

scrumper• 11 years ago

Imagine a world where our policy-makers, cancer-researchers, and entrepreneurs are all realizing gains from cognitive enhancement.

Seems like that would dramatically exacerbate the have/have not gap that the article talks about earlier. And, corollary: imagine a world where our rogue traders, mafia bosses, used car salesmen, cult leaders, and con artists are all realizing gains from cognitive enhancement.

For fun, try a limit analysis: imagine a world where all your rivals in business are dosed up on your nootropics. You're now in the position of having to consume mind altering pharmaceuticals in order to retain your job, with some completely uncertain future cost to your health. Or you could conclude that the risk isn't worth it, and instead try to make a career in a lower paying field suitable for 'unenhanced' people, probably something dangerous and physical that robots can't quite manage yet.

It's frightening that the author thinks this is a good idea. I am clinging to the hope that this was put together by some disgruntled college kids who want the benefits but can't quite stomach the risk of buying black market Adderall.

EDIT - good: it got flagkilled. Horrible article.

cheshireoctopus• 11 years ago

imagine a world where all your rivals in business are dosed up on your nootropics. You're now in the position of having to consume mind altering pharmaceuticals in order to retain your job, with some completely uncertain future cost to your health.

scary.

bdm4• 11 years ago

[Co-author of the post here.]

Imagine a world where the boogey man has access to smart phones, encryption, and chemical weapons. Yes it's scary. Technology provides a multiplying effect on society, both the good and the bad segments. Typically the good outweighs the bad, and one has to believe that technological advancement is generally a positive thing for society.

The point about feeling pressured to use nootropics because of competitors or peers is interesting. This type of soft coercion already exists with Adderall, and you could say we are "coerced" into learning to read or getting a college degree or owning a cell phone (BTW - for all we know, cell phones give you cancer if you carry it in your pocket everyday for 30 years - no one knows the exact risk). It only feels like coercion when there are significant worries and risks, otherwise it's just a positive behavior shift. No one has a crystal ball, but I would bet that society will decide that the benefits of nootropics outweigh the risks & harms, especially if there's a nootropic that's milder, safer & more equally distributed than Adderall.

Bioethicist Allen Buchanan goes into the coercion point in more detail: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/02/why-co...

trhway• 11 years ago

nootropics seems to be like steroids - useful medicine to treat real issues, and to produce exceptional results in useless "pure for show" activities like very quickly carrying that ball across those lines or picking out those 2 the same words in a quickly flickering sea of words. No practical improvement in any practical activities.

Note: 20+ years ago at University i first hand observed some acquaintances using nootropics to facilitate exams cramming. It worked for that purpose. While no practical improvement in their grades or knowledge beyond the day of the exam. People with comparable capabilities did the same cramming without chemicals too. With nootropics it was just easy, and sparing your mind such hard work isn't a good thing in mathematics (or anywhere else) actually.

blt• 11 years ago

Adderall, an amphetamine initially developed to treat people diagnosed with ADHD or narcolepsy, is in a heydey. One estimate states that at some colleges and in workplaces across the nation, despite (or maybe due to) the fact that it’s a habit-forming prescription drug.

It's pretty funny that an article seeking Kickstarter funding for a cognitive enhancement drug would have a misspelling in its first sentence, and a missing clause in its nonsensical second sentence.

bdm4• 11 years ago

Thanks! Good eye. The second sentence is fixed.

"Heydey" is not a typo - maybe I'm missing something else wrong in the first sentence?

LyndsySimon• 11 years ago

The premise of Adderall is exciting: pop a pill and plug in, and to that end, it’s been shown to be quite effective. The problem is that casual, non-prescription users are faced with a false choice: 0 or 100. There is no in between, no widely available supplement that works, that’s available over the counter, that’s not illegal and harmful.

As a user of both Vyvanse (a successor to Adderall) and non-prescription nootropics, I've found that to simply not be true.

I do in fact have ADHD. Vyvanse is a godsend 80% of the time, allowing me to function when without it I would be unable to keep cognitive focus long enough to figure out how long it's going to take me to get to work, much less sit down and write code. I take it most of the time before work, and it's very effective.

On days when I need to work late to meet a deadline, I could take a second Vyvanse. That would be against my doctor's orders, but it would work. I'd also not be able to sleep for an addition 6-8 hours, and over time could develop a number of health issues from both lack of sleep and elevated metabolism.

So.. I take racetams. I started with piracetam several years ago, and found that it allowed me to better absorb the structure of code that was difficult to understand. Piracetam only lasts about 2 hours though, and I have to take four capsules to get that much. It's bothersome, and I don't particularly want to be the guy that's always popping pills at his desk.

Aniracetam seems about as effective for me, and lasts 4-6 hours. It doesn't increase my heartrate or blood pressure like an amphetamine would, so it's perfect for when I need a few extra hours of productivity that day.

Racetams have been fairly extensively studied, and are available over the counter and as prescriptions elsewhere in the world. They're classified as supplements in the US, and are pretty much unregulated.

Declaring War on Adderall

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