Techies Who Are Homeschooling Their Kids

http://www.wired.com/2015/02/silicon-valley-home-schooling/

by tokenadult • 11 years ago

132 127 11 years ago

Homeschooling is interesting, because it has the potential to be a lot better for children than public school, but it can also be a lot worse. It is a topic close to my heart because I was partly homeschooled, and I have seen firsthand some of the sad deficiencies that can dog homeschooled kids:

1. Lazy teaching – parents being unwilling to devote 4-6 hours each day to education. Homeschooling is a commitment that should be treated with the same gravitas as a full-time working position, but many parents have trouble maintaining this mentality over many years of education. This leads to kids that, although they might be bright, just haven't been taught much, which makes them seem dull.

2. Inherited ignorance – if the parents don’t know or care much about history, unbiased politics, mathematics, literature, etc. then the kids won’t either. Obviously, the parent can make a commitment to learn the field at least to a high school level so they can educate their kids, but often this commitment falls through. Because of that, homeschooled kids can lack a multidimensional perspective of the world.

3. Neuroticism – some parents have a tendency to like to make decisions for their children. This can be very dangerous for homeschooled kids, because they don’t learn how to think for themselves or make mistakes.

4. Social gracelessness – a lot of homeschooled kids have very little interaction with their peers. School can provide social acclimatization that parents often don’t know how to give their kids. Especially if the kid is naturally shy, since parents rarely want to put their kids in a social situation where they are uncomfortable. Unfortunately, this can just exacerbate the issue, to the extent that the kids have nervous breakdowns when they finally do have to engage their peers (yes, I've seen this happen).

This is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't want to say that it's impossible for one person (usually, it's just one parent that is home during the day) to provide a well-rounded education to their kids, just that it's hard -- very, very hard. You need to help your kids make friends, and you need to let them be independent. You need to be a committed and capable educator, and you need to give them a dynamic education with diverse experience, not just doing workbooks in the house. Some people are good at this -- they are natural teachers. Other people find it much, much harder.

B-Con• 11 years ago

What you're describing is "homeschooling" used as code for "no schooling".

Both I and many of my friends were homeschooled. In the circles I was in, most homeschool parents were ambitious and committed to their kid's educations. It is indeed a full job for the parent.

n_to_the_flower2• 11 years ago

There's more variance in homeschooling, but it can be more effective than either private or public schooling if it's managed effectively. The major benefit is approaching teaching without as much spoon-feeding (better critical thinking/doing skills) and zapping curioisity with pointless memorization.

blfr• 11 years ago

There is a tiny (n=12 for unschooled kids) study[1] I saw linked on SSC[2] that apparently shows children educated in "unstructured homeschool" are only one grade behind their peers. So even serious shirking of responsibility doesn't have catastrophic effects.

[1] http://www.researchgate.net/publication/232544669_The_impact...

[2] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/23/ssc-gives-a-graduation-...

codingdave• 11 years ago

I think most home schoolers that I talk to know all these dangers, and have developed ways around it. For one thing, a single homeschooling parent is rare in my area. There are tons of coops and other groups who get together on a regular basis. Each parent reaches what they know, there are social gatherings, and the parent can support each other while the kids learn.

Also, much more curriculum is available online these days, including online schools so you can have a teacher helping your child through their work, even while home schooled. The online coursework also reduces how much you need to be the teacher... but does not completely replace it.

We have our kids that home school do the bulk of their work online, and then I review their progress and their areas of struggle, and help them specifically with problem areas, then they go read and write for a while,m and spend the afternoon with less structured time to follow their own interests.

It isn't perfect, and you do need to make sure your children are getting a good education. But that is also true of sending your kids to a school. As a parent, we are responsible for the education, no matter where they actually sit during the day.

cwbrandsma• 11 years ago

Same here, we have a dozen coops, and homeschool groups everywhere. Plus we are in a techi area, so occasionally my wife comes back from an outing, telling me about this new family she just met...turns out I know the dad as he is a programmer in the area.

As for single parent homeschooling...I can't even imagine. Homeschooling is my wife's job, that is what we call it. Anything less is a disservice to the kids.

iak8god3• 11 years ago

2. Inherited ignorance – if the parents don’t know or care much about history, unbiased politics, mathematics, literature, etc. then the kids won’t either

It's even worse when parents care very much about giving their children wrong information about topics. Many people I know were homeschooled by conservative Christians who specifically wanted their children to believe things that are not actually true: that the Earth is 6,000 years old, that condoms are not effective at preventing pregnancy and tranmissions of STIs, that America's founding fathers intended the place to be a Christian theocracy, that the Bible gives a complete and accurate account of ancient history, and so on.

tomohawk3• 11 years ago

This statement really comes across as bigoted, and really just gives ammunition to people looking for excuses to withdraw from society.

It takes all kinds to make up a society. You might think that an 18% pregnancy rate (check wikipedia) for typical condom use is 'effective', but others may not. You may not like what the Bible has to say, but others probably have a different view. I don't see many Lutherans or Baptists running around blowing up planes or burning down villages, but I do see alot of them involved in the community in helpful ways, so I'm not too worried that they may be passing their beliefs down to their children.

WalterBright• 11 years ago

The trouble is, who gets to be the arbiter of the "truth".

mikerichards• 11 years ago

Those parents would be telling their children that stuff whether they're home-schooled or not.

hga12• 11 years ago

Let me make a reductionist argument here:

Do these people teach their children reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic?

If they do, all other defects (as you see them) can be remedied in the future. The simple demonstrable fact that the public schools in the US are often bad if not hopeless (e.g. no phonics) at even those modest goals is enough for me to support even snake handling Pentecostals. Not able to read == no future intellectual life absent, let me put it, a "miracle".

prostoalex4• 11 years ago

But Common Core testing standards would take care of it, seems like?

zaphar4• 11 years ago

I was homeschooled from 2nd grade up all the way through high school.

I've seen kids destroyed by home schooling and I've seen kids saved by home schooling. You are absolutely correct that the potential is there but not always realized.

Homeschooling shines when the parents play to it's strengths.

* Individually tailored education at the elementary level provides a huge boost to many kids.

* An environment that stresses and promotes self directed learning at the high school level also does wonders for a teenagers future. Done right home schooling encourages, rather than discourages, thinking for themselves through debate and conversation with adults.

* Lack of social grace while it exists for some kids is far from the norm. So far from the norm that I consider it a myth. It gets trotted out in almost every discussion I encounter around home schooling. And yet for the overwhelming majority of Home Schooled kids it couldn't be farther from the truth. In fact I think that in many ways Social Skills can be one of the biggest advantages a Home Schooled child can have.

Most kids learn to socialize from their friends. Those friends have no more idea than they do though. When they get their first job and/or attend college they have to learn all over again how to interact with adults.

A home schooled child tends to learn to socialize from other adults. The number 1 thing most people noticed about me and other Home Schooled people I've known was how well we could hold a conversation with an adult.

I've seen kids end up far too sheltered and harmed as a result but this is much less of a danger than most people think in my experience.

The #1 thing to keep consider though if you are thinking about homeschooling is the time commitment. You will probably need one parent to commit to it full time because it's a lot of work.

aidenn03• 11 years ago

I went to a magnet high-school, and there were enough homeschooled kids who first went to public school there in 9th grade (or first since early elementary anyway) that I could make some observations:

For a few weeks, there was a definite gap in social grace as the homeschooled kids adjusted to cultural norms. After that, a significant fraction were fitting in just fine. It is true that a larger fraction of the homeschooled kids were awkard than the non-homeschooled kids after this adjustment period, but there is significant selection bias here; I know for a fact that a few of those kids were pulled from early elementary school because they were awkward and getting bullied, so the cause/effect is potentially reversed there.

legohead• 11 years ago

I've tried to keep an open mind about homeschooling, but every child or adult I've come across that was homeschooled is just, weird...

I'm disappointed the article didn't go over how/if the kids get the much needed social interaction. Kids need conflict, and a lot of it, in order to fit in well with society (and especially the workplace).

mercer4• 11 years ago

I'd love to see a proper study on this, but my experience with almost all of these homeschooled individuals (including myself) is that we are definitely 'weird', but in spite of that, or I suspect because of that, we somehow all do very well in our own unique ways. Many of us are freelancers, consultants, or creative workers, where fitting in is not so important, and being a bit odd is sometimes even celebrated. We often find similarly-weird partners and friends.

Weirdness, in my opinion, is a very good trait, provided you can be 'normal' enough when you have to be. Most homeschooled kids I know spent part of their lives in the normal system, or had extra-curricular activities in more normal social settings, though.

Furthermore, I know many more people who were seriously damaged because of the social interactions in school.

And when you think about it, that kind of makes sense. It seems (relatively) more healthy to me for a kid to spend most of his time with a mix of adults and other kids, often within a strong community-setting, rather than stuck in a classroom with only other kids of their age and an often slightly disinterested teacher (or one going through the motions).

prostoalex4• 11 years ago

http://www.ranker.com/list/amazing-people-you-might-not-have...

1123581321• 11 years ago

It's not 'just the tip of the iceberg' as you've described about all of the potential problems.

Social gracelessness is just natural introversion, which is wonderful. The biases of the parents certainly do affect their children, though. In place of lazy teaching I would say that homeschooled children do not gain early experience coping with difficult systems. This is a strength and a weakness depending on where life takes them.

I agree with other commenters that we are nearly living in a golden age of being able to self-direct traditional education as well as educational experiences. It's interesting to compare the current generation of homeschoolers with those 20-30 years ago, when it started to become more popular. At the time, the concern was that a rigorous education could not be obtained in a public school as they were pursuing non-traditional education. Now, public schools are obsessed with academic rigor (to the degree they've embraced Common Core), and the advantage of homeschooling is the flexibility and non-traditional approach.

toolz• 11 years ago

I just wanted to respond to point number 1. I was home schooled in third grade and in sixth grade. Both years I would spend no more than three hours a school day learning stuff. Upon enrolling for a private school in the fourth grade I went from being recognized as an average student in the 2nd grade to scoring head and shoulders better than anyone else taking the standardized test going into 4th grade. Needless to say they didn't require me to participate in the end of 5th grade years testing to enroll in the 6th grade.

So, at least in my experience, when you're devoting one on one time with a child, it takes far less time to teach them as you can craft the teaching style to fit their needs.

prostoalex4• 11 years ago

I think the Common Core standards are supposed to take care of (1) and (2). You have a common set of knowledge against which you're tested, the paths to acquiring that knowledge (public school, private school, parents, hired tutors, YouTube videos) are really up to you.

On (4) there's not hard quantifiable data to suggest homeschooled kids lack social interaction, as amount of quality of social interaction at public school is questionable (and could comprise of bullying another kid). There are home-schooled socialites and public school hermits and weirdos on both ends of the spectrum.

Schooling is only part of social interaction for kids; sport leagues, scout organizations, local clubs can fill that purpose as well.

ladytron3• 11 years ago

Anyone who is not sure of 100% homeschooling can check with your local school district to see if they allow part time students. I'm officially a homeschooler by state law but my kids go to a local public school a few hours a day, four days a week. They call it "fun school". They go to lunch, recess, and all the specials (art, music, PE, technology, Spanish), and an extra conversational Spanish class. They go on all the class trips, school concerts, fundraiser parties, etc. They each have loads of "school friends" and get invited to tons of birthday parties, etc. The public school kids in their classes (an extremely diverse group)seem to love and accept them.

The "no schooling" concerns are valid and I think it is like running a business - when you homeschool you might like some objective advisers outside of your family to keep you on your toes. This "educational advisory panel" can take many forms. For example, we use the Kumon private tutoring center to make sure we don't miss any holes with English and the Mathnasium center and Khan Academy to cover all the broad topics in math. These are private programs and they are expensive but worth it - kids who go through them ace standardized tests. It's very "tiger mom" and a good balance to the "unschooling" philosophy. They are still way cheaper than private school for a big family and they don't take much time out of the week. This leaves room for all those "creative class, student led inquiry based projects" and family/friend/socializing time pursuits.

It works for us :-)

icelancer• 11 years ago

Huh. This sounds like a really good idea.

beauzero2• 11 years ago

In some states, like Georgia, there are online partnerships that will handle all of the school curriculum but allow the child to work at their own pace. The only additional cost is the workspace/laptop, etc. that you need to provide your child.

breckinloggins• 11 years ago

I like to catch conservative radio when I go on road trips. I find it entertaining but I also find that it's valuable to listen to the so-called "other side" every once in a while. I heard something on Limbaugh's show several months ago on one of these trips that has stuck with me ever since.

A caller was telling Rush about a new bathroom policy in his neighborhood's public elementary school that allowed transgendered children to use whichever bathroom most closely aligned with their sexual identity.

To the caller, this was the height of liberal filth. He rejected not only the idea that transgendered people really exist, but that a child would even HAVE a sexual identity at an early age. He was furious that he was having to explain to his son why a person who was "obviously a girl" got to use "his" restroom. The upshot of all this was that he claimed that this was the point he realized he was an alien in a secular universe, and that it was time to pull his children out of public school and homeschool them.

Why did I tell that story? Why did it stick with me? Because, to me, it highlights a feeling I've been having about something very profound that's happening to America. I don't know if it's a wonderful thing or a disaster (or both), but I have an irresistible gut feeling that it's happening.

I'm talking about the emergence of a new national mitosis.

North vs South, Red State vs Blue State, liberal vs conservative, religious vs secular. Whatever you want to call it, Americans - it seems - are separating themselves into two (or more) distinct and ideologically opposed groups. This is nothing new, of course, but what IS new (at least in my memory) is that there are fewer and fewer opportunities for common discourse. All sides are not only furious at each other, they are genuinely mystified by each other. That's why I found Rush's caller so interesting. I could hear something in his and Rush's voice that was far beyond anger and the usual partisan name-calling. It was pure cultural shock and confusion; like a martian landing in Times Square.

So what does that all have to do with techies homeschooling their kids? It strikes me as significant that though there is no simple way to divide these two groups (and there is definitely overlap), both of them are beginning to eschew public education. If you are passionately pro "tech" or passionately pro "God", it seems there is little left that public schools (and mainstream society itself) can offer you and your children.

These two groups have more alike than might first appear. Both groups feel that there is something so rotten at the core as to be nigh unfixable (whether loss of Biblical values on the one side or complete loss of intellectual curiosity on the other).

I don't have any deep insights as to why we seem to be splitting into multiple Americas or what might happen next, but I can feel that it's happening. If you want to watch the proverbial canaries in the coal mine, watch who homeschools their kids.

nights192• 11 years ago

While I cannot speak for the majority of your experience, what you just described sounds very much to be related to revulsion towards the inclusion of different biological/reproductive traits within the same, supposedly semi-private, room; this may provoke discomfort within your average female attendants in the room, and works against the design of the rooms themselves. (The rooms utilizing separate urinals optimized for certain sexes.) I understand your reasoning behind have some distaste against this particular viewer, but it is preferable to attempt to understand the philosophical underpinnings and priorities of the other side than merely note said side's existence- such a lack of introspection is part of the problem, not the solution.

deciplex3• 11 years ago

If only Americans were separating themselves into merely two distinct groups. From what I can tell, it's more like they're separating themselves into about 320 million different groups. And everyone hates everyone else, and if you think the elites aren't fanning the flames of this with every tool at their disposal, then you really haven't been paying attention.

The buckets you're talking about are an illusion. "Clash of cultures" is bullshit - it doesn't exist. Let's assume for a minute that I'm not very unique, and so these opinions I hold are common, and try to figure out what it means:

If I think transgender people by definition have gender dysphoria, does that make me an intolerant bigot? What if I also think that if an operation is the best way to relieve them of the stress of that condition, then they should have the operation? And if I also support universal health care, so that I think the state should end up paying for that operation, well now I can't tell if I'm supposed to be an intolerant bigot or a bleeding heart or what.

If I think that, strictly speaking, a person does actually choose to be gay, in the sense that the state of their mind is informed by both physiological and psychological factors (like just about anything else), does that also make me an intolerant bigot? What if I also think that, well, if it's a choice, it's still a person's right to make that choice, just like they ought be able to marry whoever the hell they want and otherwise be totally unaffected by that decision, seeing as how it has absolutely no consequences to anything at all other than what happens in that person's bedroom, which is of course nobody's fucking business.

A lot of LGBT people will take great offense at what I've written, despite all of my relevant policy goals pretty much aligning exactly with theirs. And, likewise, few people in the family values camp will be able to find much common ground with me, even though I've echoed some of where they are coming from culturally. So, what am I?

Well, I'm a member of homo sapiens from the planet Earth, like everyone else, and if everyone could just shut the fuck up for a minute and keep that in mind when they interact with other human beings - and I'm glaring now mainly at the far Left and the Religious Right - we'd have approximately half the problems globally that we have now, and we'd be giving the psychopaths at the top of our social order a lot less leverage against us, which is also probably a good thing.

cbd19843• 11 years ago

If only Americans were separating themselves into merely two distinct groups. From what I can tell, it's more like they're separating themselves into about 320 million different groups. And everyone hates everyone else, and if you think the elites aren't fanning the flames of this with every tool at their disposal, then you really haven't been paying attention.

Is there any possible evidence anyone could show you which would convince you this position is wrong?

If I think that, strictly speaking, a person does actually choose to be gay, in the sense that the state of their mind is informed by both physiological and psychological factors (like just about anything else), does that also make me an intolerant bigot?

I don't know, do you think people choose to be straight or bi? Do you think a straight person could choose to be gay, or either of them choose to be bi, or vice-versa(-vice-versa)? Because if you can't really choose to be another way, it isn't a choice the way the term is used in this context, and you're being obfuscatory.

logn2• 11 years ago

I am considering homeschooling. My main motivation is that I really hated school and so did my wife. And I didn't learn much after 6th grade. Most of the school work I did was a waste of time. I don't want to waste anyone's time or mine (even though I'll end up spending more time). And I think I can offer a better education. It's nothing to do with values, intellectual curiosity, or schools being rotten to the core. I think schools can be fixed, but they're dysfunctional currently.

firebones• 11 years ago

I absolutely don't want to invalidate your goal or desire, but I would ask, knowing what you know now, was there anything you wish you could have done differently after sixth grade that would have resulted in a better outcome for you and your wife (short of total avoidance)?

I bring this up because I've seen people embrace homeschooling (with mixed results) as a way to right perceived wrongs in their own childhoods. I sometimes wonder whether their experiences might be better applied in teaching their kids the lessons learned from their time in a school system rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater and just avoiding the system altogether. After all, you survived and ended up in a position to make and have this choice for your kids...so all was not lost.

mynameishere• 11 years ago

Or maybe girls don't want to have to share a bathroom with creepy boys pretending to be girls. Attributing bigotry to everything you disagree with is unwise.

normloman• 11 years ago

Calling a transperson a "creepy boy pretending to be a girl" is a textbook example of bigotry.

saraid2162• 11 years ago

North vs South, Red State vs Blue State, liberal vs conservative, religious vs secular. Whatever you want to call it, Americans - it seems - are separating themselves into two (or more) distinct and ideologically opposed groups. This is nothing new, of course, but what IS new (at least in my memory) is that there are fewer and fewer opportunities for common discourse.

It's... honestly not as new as you think. Not even the lack of common ground bit.

http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2014/09/phases-of-american-civ...

Creating common ground is the actual job of politicians. They're just bad at it. (Which isn't that surprising, given the sheer scope of the task and that a good number of them don't appear to realize it.)

dragonwriter2• 11 years ago

Creating common ground is the actual job of politicians.

That's not an unreasonable view, but the actual structure of the US electoral systems creates disincentives to do that job.

EliRivers2• 11 years ago

From an outsider's perspective, it's even odder; to us, the principal two (two!) political parties are almost identical. Their ideologies are so similar that sometimes I mix up which side is in favour/against which particular hot-topic.

So the politics of the US seems, from this outsider's perspective, to be extraordinarily similar until you get to the real fringes, and yet despite (because of?) this similarity is so full of fury.

mmcconnell1618• 11 years ago

A polite, rational conversation does not get high viewership in the media. Television, radio, print all focus on the fringes because that's what generates viewers/listeners/readers which in turn creates revenue.

People in the US can agree on a great many things but media allows them to self reinforce extreme views. There are no requirements for balanced journalism reflecting reality. When 95% of experts agree on something and get the same 1 minute of air time that a representative of the 5% get it creates the appearance that both arguments have equal value.

I can't fault media companies for catering to extremes because they are businesses and the model has proven to drive more revenue. I don't think this will change until the public starts rejecting fringe reporting (not likely to happen anytime soon).

throwaway3442• 11 years ago

And from my perspective Labour and Conservatives seem really similar! That seems particularly strong post-Blair.

I mean the parties in the UK agree on pretty much all the major issues (particularly social trigger points like abortion, LGBT stuff), save perhaps for how to deal with inequality. Most of the big issues in the UK seem to be much less major by comparison.

mercer4• 11 years ago

Similar concerns are discussed frequently even here in Holland. For example, where in the past people would mingle 'across' class through religious affiliation, secularization changed that dynamic. Gentrification in the cities is pushing immigrants and the lower classes out to the periphery while yuppies and rich people concentrate in the desirable center. While our schools are still pretty mixed, there does seem to develop and increasing schism between different classes.

Increasingly homogenous 'family units', decrease in contact with extended family, neighbors, and via religious affiliation might have a much bigger effect on society than we are currently aware of.

EDIT: Not to mention a strong increase in freelancers and as a result a decrease in long-term work relationships (with 'the company' and with colleagues).

n_to_the_flower2• 11 years ago

Suppose your child were exceptionally gifted. The "IEP"-ish customized learning at one's own (accelerated) pace be homeschooling's major advantage: to unlimit progress without being hindered by an impersonal, one-sized-fits-all class. The critical part of homeschooling seems to be providing a mix of play and unstructured learning with other bright kids. How would that work with homeschooling in urban, suburban and rural areas? (I've seen some homeschooling in rural areas, where kids have neighbors to play and go on "field trips" with, but there isn't much choice in terms of other bright kids able to work on science and maker projects together.)

tomohawk3• 11 years ago

Whether home schooled, private schooled, or public schooled, it's ultimately the parent's responsibility to educate their child.

One danger of public schools is that parents can get a false sense of security about whether their child is being properly educated. It can be easy to get into autopilot mode and trust that there are good things going on at the school. As long as the child is passing classes, being promoted to the next grade on schedule, and gets a diploma everything should be good - no?

Unfortunately, such indicators don't appear to mean much. I know several people who received extremely deficient educations, and yet passed all classes and got a diploma. In one case, the person received their diploma without knowing basic addition/subtraction or other arithmetic, and could barely read. They've since taken years of private tutoring (at their own expense, since the state owes them nothing once they grant the diploma). So, they could certainly learn, but apparently the school didn't teach.

The parents in this case were not well educated themselves, and were trusting that the school was doing its job. It's easy to throw rocks at them for not paying more attention, but what the heck was the school doing?

There's certainly no perfect system, but parents who are taking on the homeschooling responsibility deserve a lot of latitude and support.

tokenadult• 11 years ago

The evident downvotes on your comment were really unfair, as what you report squares with my experience (it is part of my motivation for homeschooling) and anyway is reported in all of the better research literature on school effectiveness in the United States. Yes, parents have to take responsibility for their children's educations, period, whether or not their children attend school.

aidenn03• 11 years ago

At least in the part of California I live, there is no danger of even marginally aware parents getting a false sense of security; it's blindingly obvious that the kids aren't getting properly educated.

I knew the schools here weren't great, but I had no idea how bad they were until my oldest started 3 years ago. We at least have a lot of options, with my wife being a stay-at-home mom, and my salary being enough to afford modest private school tuition. My heart breaks for those who are just making ends meet with two earners (or only a single parent). They really have no options other than the public school system, which is a shame.

[edit]

It also somewhat astonished me that the schools are so poorly funded; it's a fairly affluent area with high property values, so I would have expected better funding. California natives blame it on Prop 13, and I would like to see the math on that; the per-student funding here today is about what it was when I was in elementary school on the East Coast in the 80s, which is less than half as much in real dollars.

nodata• 11 years ago

Can you write a bit about the blindingly obvious things for those of us outside California?

SiVal4• 11 years ago

In most places in the US, the amount paid to schools has gone up far faster than inflation over the past several decades, while the schools have produced no significant improvement in educational proficiency with the extra funding. It changes somewhat with exchange rates from year to year, but it is often the case that every country that outperforms the US in public education spends less per student than does the US.

So, if giving the schools a lot more money bought no better educational results, then continuing year after year to increase funding beyond inflation, spending more than any educationally superior country, still left educational outcomes essentially unchanged, what are the chances that the major problem is the level of funding?

Isn't it a lot more likely that the major problem is what the school systems actually do? If they could show that each 10% increase in funding in a given location had produced an average 40 point gain in SAT scores, I would want to talk about further funding increases in that location. On the other hand, if they showed that each 10% increase in funding produced, well, 10% more for the staff but nothing for the students, I would want to discuss changes other than funding.

throwaway49873• 11 years ago

A lot of people want money to be they deciding factor for success, even across the political spectrum.

prostoalex4• 11 years ago

It also somewhat astonished me that the schools are so poorly funded;

You don't give money to schools, you give it to the school districts. Which already have a set of their own financial obligations such as pension liabilities, outstanding bond payments and current overhead.

Pension liabilities increase any time the investments do not as well as projections, and any time people live longer http://www.heritage.org/research/commentary/2013/2/teacher-p...

Bond companies have their own way of structuring municipal bonds to arrive at nice upsides http://www.ocregister.com/articles/bonds-496091-school-bank....

hga12• 11 years ago

This was a theme of Heinlein's 1958 Have Space Suit, Will Travel (which among other things accurately tells you what you need to learn to get into MIT and CalTech, and how polite the latter's rejection letter is, which I can attest to :-).

Even going back to his first juvenile in 1947, Rocket Ship Galileo, the scientist protagonist is very surprised at how well educated in science, math and engineering are the group of high school students he falls in with.

And he wrote rather a lot on this elsewhere, e.g. comparing what he, his father and his grandfather were taught. The rot has been going on for a long time. One book traces it back to the Unitarians capturing Harvard from the Congregationalists in the 1810-20 period, I use the 1930 when phonics were successfully attacked. That we're still arguing that, 50 years after the publication of Why Johnny Can't Read, tells us just about all we need to know about the US educational establishment.

marktangotango• 11 years ago

Nice perspective, Heinleins juveniles were VERY influential on me as pre-teen/teen. Plus my father shared the same outlook, that I was responsible for my education. I later came to understand that I had been indoctrinated with Libertarianism, unwittingly, and had to adjust my beliefs somewhat as an adult.

A_COMPUTER3• 11 years ago

I have some family friends who homeschooled their six kids. The first three got a thorough, good education and were well-socialized. The last three, not so much. Their mom was older and tired by then, and community support had diminished after the 80's. I will say this though, even though a couple turned out to be "problem children" anyway, they weren't uniquely bad compared to troubled kids in public school.

icantthinkofone• 11 years ago

fwiw, I homeschooled my two boys. One graduated summa cum laude from a well known university. The other graduated in the top 10% of another well known school. And I think I did a lousy job of it.

If enough people show an interest, I'll go into it more tomorrow but, for now, I'm going to bed.

Rainymood• 11 years ago

Please do. I am very intrigued.

walljm3• 11 years ago

I'll let zaphar tell his side of it (he's my brother), but the way I remember mom telling it, the school was disinterested in dealing with certain issues he was having in class.

The problem was, zaphar knew everything he needed to know in 1st grade before he showed up the first day. He got excessively bored in class as a result and developed a daydreaming habit his teachers didn't want to take the time address. By the time he was in 2nd grade, he was learning nothing and fell behind. The teachers met with my mom as they usually do and told her that they were just going to pass him to the next class instead of keeping him back. Mom thought that was "unacceptable" and that was part of what prompted my parents to pull him out and homeschool us.

It took her a couple years to break him of the habit (and a lot of one on one interaction).

There are probably other things zaphar might know, but that's how I remember it.

As a result, I never went to public schools at all (with the exception of drivers ed in highschool). Kindergarten was 30 mins a day for a summer. I would run up to mom and say "let have school!" and then when i got bored we would stop.

For the record, I was socially awkward. I'm naturally shy and that didn't help. I eventually overcame that (though it does come out when i'm more fatigued) and would like to think I can hold my own socially. But I doubt public school would have been good for me. If it was anything like college was, I would have done far worse academically. I hate lectures, they make me sleepy and bored and I retain very little. I need to read and work the problems to understand them. Mostly, I marvel at the waste of time. I could typically do all my homework in ~4 hours (or less if i was being diligent) and be done with school by lunch. Sitting for nearly 8 hours a day (given my aggressively active nature as a child) would have been torture.

zaphar4• 11 years ago

You may think you did a lousy job of it but I wonder if your kids think differently.

My mom taught herself the multiplication tables along side me. She missed a lot of school when she was younger due to hospital stays because she had contracted Polio.

She took that weakness and turned it into a strength even though she may not have felt qualified to home school me at the time.

I think it helped that the School System had thoroughly angered her though :-). There's a story there that I won't go into now.

JacobAldridge• 11 years ago

I harbour a vision to live a location independent lifestyle, which almost of necessity would require some element of homeschooling (though I shared here yesterday why this part hasn't moved from vision to strategy yet [1]).

That means keeping my eyes open for any similar experiences, and I've recently fallen in love with these guys [2] because they're the first "family nomads" I've come across who also talk about managing a mortgage back home etc (most people on a permanent holiday are singles in their 20s and 30s - I need assets, not cheap laundry tips).

This article in particular looks at the challenges they've overcome, and extensive research they've found, in deciding positively to homeschool their children abroad - http://www.escapingexpectations.com/are-homeschooled-kids-de...

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8994656 [2] http://www.escapingexpectations.com/

[Edit] Let me also add, in case he's too modest to, Karl's excellent homeschool resource site Learn in Freedom - HN context and link https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5094480

technomancy• 11 years ago

If you haven't read Seymour Papert's Mindstorms book (ostensibly about the creation of Logo, but actually more about math education facilitated by exploring concepts through programming), it's a real eye-opener. It's one of the main texts that got me excited about taking a hands-on role in my kids' education.

marknadal• 11 years ago

I was homeschooled and really enjoyed it. From my experience, the parents try to foster a passion for continued learning and self learning.

With that perspective, a child grows up assuming their parent is biased and seeks out competing views. This skill of analysis and synthesis is incredibly critical.

We can definitely sometimes be socially awkward (I can spot other homeschoolers a mile away) but I know a lot of friends who have become quite successful in their careers which does take quite a bit of social skills.

My personal example is that I just raised money for my open source startup (http://github.com/amark/gun) tackling the pains of databases. Most other homeschoolers I know went after the legal/political fields though.

Feel free to ask me any questions. :)

fnordfnordfnord• 11 years ago

I've had a few home-schooled students in my college courses. The most memorable one was a fairly bright guy, excellent at math, and remarkably had never heard of the civil rights movement of the 1960's or anything at all having to do with race relations in the US. Between his lack of knowledge about racial tension, and other factors, he was definitely socially awkward; but everyone got through it unscathed. I don't think his parents were involved in tech. Overall, his HS education was probably not better or worse by a large degree than anyone else from one of the local high schools.

bko• 11 years ago

The Cook family are not just homeschoolers but unschoolers. They don’t prefer homeschooling simply because they find most schools too test-obsessed or underfunded or otherwise ineffective.

It's interesting that even those that are skeptical about the US educational system system seem to cast the problem in very traditional terms. I think a big problem with the educational system is about the inefficiency of the bundling of goods.

A lot of value has been generated from un-bundling of goods in other sectors. People used to read newspapers for news, sports, classifieds, op-ed, etc. Today' many people get their news from one venue, sports from another, and so on. I don't often hear people suggesting that maybe the system should be less bundled so students/parents have a choice to take different classes from different providers. A lot of schools may have good math programs but weaker English programs but there is no reason that these classes have to be bundled together. At the very least we should un-bundle sports from education. Although sports are beneficial to many young people, having them tied to an educational institute seems ridiculous.

In regards to what these parents are doing, I'm happy with any experimentation. Hopefully some parents will be able to pool their resources and serve groups of children. One parent can teach engineering to the neighbors kids, and another can teach literature.

mhall119• 11 years ago

Hopefully some parents will be able to pool their resources and serve groups of children. One parent can teach engineering to the neighbors kids, and another can teach literature.

This happens quite a bit actually

ladytron3• 11 years ago

Marie Curie actually taught her kids this way for a few years. A small group of friends (mostly college professors) each picked a subject. Marie designed hands - on experiments to teach the group physics. She and Pierre Curie did not think much of France's school system at the time. In her biography their complaints about science education sound very contemporary. "The more things change, the more they stay the same".

epaga• 11 years ago

Sadly, home-schooling continues to be illegal in Germany, a law which was first instituted in the 1930s as the government wanted more control over education.

The police will literally show up at your door and escort your kids to school if you attempt to home-school.

hga12• 11 years ago

With this current infamous case as an example: https://www.google.com/search?q=german+homeschooling+family+...

Gleichschaltung is still a thing, even if it's relaxed and focused on a different ethos.

zaphar4• 11 years ago

In elementary school in Texas I was home schooled and there were a number of times that Police/Truant Officers showed up to try to take us to school.

The legality of Home Schooling was very much up in the air in the early days. No one ever succeeded in making it into the house since my Mom was very educated about her rights and the rights of her kids and was totally capable of standing up to anyone who came without a warrant.

As a child of 6-10 years of age I thought it was incredibly exciting. Our family was rebelling against the Man!

walljm3• 11 years ago

this was a fairly common experience to those of us who were homeschooling some 30+ years ago (wow, has it been that long?).

i know lots of friends with similar experiences, having prepared statements to tell adults who wanted to know why we were out during normal school hours, having to wait until after 3pm to go outside to play just to avoid the scrutiny.

brogrammer90• 11 years ago

I think these bottom of the barrel techies have got it wrong. How many home schooled kids have been accepted as founders into YC? My guess is not very many. Most founders are elite college graduates that come K-12 schools where standardized testing is the norm.

ladytron3• 11 years ago

What is a bottom of the barrel techie?

The percentage of homeschoolers in the population is extremely low, so it is doubtful that you would see a large group of them anywhere, including YC.

I assume a large portion of techie homeschooler's kids will go onto college, some elite ones too.

Homeschoolers generally do very well on standardized tests like the SAT and ACT because their literacy is very high.

hkarthik• 11 years ago

I've seen a few friends recently start homeschooling as a way to opt out of the public school system without paying for private school.

In every one of these situations, the wife stays at home to raise and teach the kids while the man works. In many ways it forces a continuation of traditional gender roles, which I personally don't agree with.

So while I understand and agree with some of the decisions these folks are making, there is a clear gender divide that they are ignorant of, or unwilling to even talk about.

Techies Who Are Homeschooling Their Kids

Related Stories