The Danish Don't Have the Secret to Happiness

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/01/the-danish-dont-have-the-secret-to-happiness/384930/?single_page=true

by tokenadult • 11 years ago

57 38 11 years ago

oellegaard• 11 years ago

As they mention in the end of the article - most Danes think they're in the best possible place in the world and have the best life you can get. I guess that is being happy? Surely you can argue whether it's factually true - but if you think you are happy - aren't you? :-)

bryanrasmussen• 11 years ago

a large number of Americans seem to think the same. It's easy to seem the best if you keep your views parochial enough.

rayiner• 11 years ago

It's easy to seem the best if you keep your views parochial enough.

Or have some experience of the world outside the U.S. I think I live in the best possible place in the world. I don't begrudge Danes or Swedes for thinking the same. It's all heaven compared to Bangladesh.

swatow• 11 years ago

So let's get this straight: The author takes a single critique of Danish culture. Then asserts that this demonstrates that Danes can't be all that happy, and therefore concludes the Danes really just have low expectations.

Then the author notes that low Gini coefficients tend to be considered a good thing for happiness. But the author decides that actually low Gini coefficients (combined with Denmark's shocking ethnic homogeneity) are actually a bad thing, so Danes have even less excuse to be happy.

_delirium3• 11 years ago

Miscellaneous comments on the article, from the perspective of a Greek-American who's lived some years in Denmark. Admittedly a bit disjointed and anecdotal, but then so was the article...

1. The biggest "contentedness" aspect imo is not only people's economic position, but extraordinarily high confidence in it. To compare with neighboring Germany, Germans are economically not much worse off, and their poverty rate is only moderately higher. But middle-class and especially lower-middle-class Germans feel much less secure about their status. In Eurostat surveys, something like 10-15% of Danes report worrying that they or a family member might fall into poverty, but it's ~40% in Germany (and higher in other parts of Europe).

2. I haven't found this part to be at all true: Newspaper editor Anne Knudsen had an interesting theory relating to why the Danes continue to respond positively to happiness surveys: “In Denmark it is shameful to be unhappy,” she told me.

It's possible this isn't what she means, but in my experience Danes are much more likely to be open about things like being treated for depression than Americans are; it's still seen as shameful in the US to a much greater extent. The social system also supports it, e.g. students or employees sometimes take off time due to mental-health issues or stress, and are usually pretty open about it.

3. I don't find the "Jante Law" particularly useful as an interpretative device for understanding Scandinavian society, at least in the big cities (I've never lived in Herning or Randers or such, so can't speak to them). The novel it comes from is mainly a satire of small-town mentality of the era it was written (the 1930s, when most of Scandinavia's population lived in such towns). Some parts are distinctively Scandinavian, but in my opinion most are not. For comparison, read Sinclair Lewis's 1920 novel Main Street, a satire of American small-town mentality, and you'll find a very similar mentality being parodied. And you still find it in the U.S. quite a bit; there's a deep suspicion in smaller town and rural areas of people who are perceived as thinking that they're "better" than their roots.

tokai2• 11 years ago

Yeah you second point seems off. I have meet English people complaining about talking to danes. I was told that if you ask a dane "How are you?" as a greeting, danes would reply with a long winding answer of how their life currently is.

mclemme2• 11 years ago

I always find it a bit strange and it takes me a few days to adapt, when I'm in countries where "how are you?" is a common way to greet someone (I'm from Denmark & live in Cph).

It feels very rude for me to just answer with a "great/fine/ok and you?" when someone asks me how I am, I think is has something to do with that the Danish version of that sentence (hvordan har du det?) is something that is most often said to someone when that person is having a tough time or is sick or if the person saying it is worried about the other persons emotional well-being.

cylinder2• 11 years ago

Well, I'm born and raised American, and I still find it odd that people say "how are you" rhetorically here. What's the point? They even look at you funny if you respond with "Good!" Here in New York, you see an acquaintance in the halls, they say "Hey how are you," you respond "Good how are you" and the other person doesn't even answer at all! It seems extremely rude to me and I'm from here, I can only imagine what a foreign visitor thinks.

lomnakkus2• 11 years ago

(I'm not native to .dk, but I have lived there for a very long time. "Integrated", as it were.)

#1: The surveys are probably right, but maybe the Danish are just more optimistic and haven't been terrified by Krampus at an early age (and thus been conditioned to live up to some ridiculous ideal)?

#2: I must admit, I have a hard time interpreting that quote about "shameful to to be unhappy". People I talk to pretty regularly go "meh" when asked "how do you do?". As opposed to the Americans I've met that go "GREAT!"... where I'm pretty suspicious that they've been truthful at all.)

#3: Naw, doesn't really apply any more except in the Danish equivalent of the Daily Mail (or whatever).

napoleoncomplex• 11 years ago

The Law of Jante is like institutionalized ego death, perhaps making Danes the first enlightened nation. Entertaining to consider, at the least.

cronin101• 11 years ago

I moved to Norway to work as a Software Developer; ego-less technical discussion is _incredibly_ refreshing.

Elsewhere, even when people all have what they think is the product's best interests at heart, too many times have I seen competing showmanship ruin an otherwise killer team.

juliangregorian• 11 years ago

Is it really that different (than the US)? How did you get a work visa?

I can't even express how many "geniuses" I've tried to work for only to find out they completely crumble under the pressure of the expectations they build for themselves, and then are unable to accept help or work with other reasonably intelligent people (which might threaten their ego).

Seriously getting burnt out by tech, which is sad, so if it is really as different as you say I would love to make a move.

guard-of-terra• 11 years ago

What do you need for a non-boring life? You can hop on the plane, you know, and be in any place you consider non-boring in a few hours.

MrJagil2• 11 years ago

[Denmark] might not get your pulse racing like the Lower East Side or Copacabana, but in the long run a solid pension fund and reliable broadband will always win the day—

This does not seem entirely truthful, at least regarding Danish youth. Danish art and culture is, and have for a long time been, in big demand. Music magazines continuously scope out the different scenes. Maybe most recently, danish punk had an enormous period of exposition when acts like Ice Age and Lower got picked up by Pitchfork. MØ is another example. I have a feeling too that most people here are familiar with Danish design and architecture and I often hear Copenhagen mentioned as the (street?) fashion capital of the world. Furthermore, it seems scandinavia in general is having a pretty big tech and startup resurgence right now. Web 2.0 and the whole App thing seems to fit the general culture well. Perhaps because the living standards are quite high... the smartphone market for instance, is entirely saturated. Lastly, Denmark is often described as one of the countries where the youth drink the most which suggest a vibrant night life (I can attest to that; there's a way too loud party next door right now. Slap af, det er lige meget.). This article seems pretty good, if you want to read more: http://www.nordicwelfare.org/PageFiles/4207/Gundelach%20J%C3...

Now, perhaps Danes stagnate when they get older, and certainly not everyone works in the arts. Nor does everyone live in the heart of Copenhagen. I do feel though, that Denmark being dull has more to do with certain people having a tiny reference frame than the actual situation they are in or can create for themselves.

tokai2• 11 years ago

As a dane I don't feel negative about the law of jante (even though it is formulated negatively to lampoon the Scandinavian mindset). I find it communal and egalitarian. But I guess that viewpoint is hard to understand for people from more competitive and individual societies.

sopooneo• 11 years ago

Many of the rules seemed redundant. Is that part of a joke, do you know?

SyneRyder4• 11 years ago

I'm so glad to read this. I spent two weeks in Copenhagen last year, I wanted to love it... but in the end, the "Happiest country in the world" poster in the airport felt like creepy state propaganda.

Copenhagen had lots of visible social issues. There were lots of people begging for money in the train stations, which seemed to belie Denmark's generous welfare. Graffiti was everywhere. If you had the misfortune to have to walk down Istedgade to your accommodation, you were accosted & grabbed by several desperate & grim looking prostitutes. Everything was disorganized & broken - midway through my trip I started taking photos of Windows blue screens & Windows XP rebooting on the trains, just because I saw it everywhere. Ticket machines & ATMs often didn't work. My internet wasn't reliable either, despite the claims of superior Danish internet. No one seemed to care that things were broken.

The monoculture was eerie. My friends all stayed at different AirBnBs across the city, and yet all of our apartments looked nearly identical: same floorboards, same IKEA furniture, even the exact same brand & size of TV. It was as if no-one dared admit they might want something different or more than their neighbors have. The housing made me feel very fortunate for what we have in Australia. The Danes didn't seem happy, just that they were equally grumpy. It felt "communist" to me, though I suppose "socialist" would be more accurate.

The truly bizarre thing is that just across the water, barely 20km away in Malmö (Sweden), things felt so much happier, more diverse & vibrant & creative & colorful, no-one begging, everything "just worked" and the people were friendlier.

I don't want to be so down on Copenhagen, I've seen some awesome design & software come from there. I did like Copenhagen Airport, and they have the friendliest customs officials I've ever encountered. Tivoli theme park was nice. But for the most part, Copenhagen gave me a really creepy and unhappy feeling that I never forgot. Hawaii was a far happier place.

chvid2• 11 years ago

Well - as I a Dane I will let you in on a couple of secrets:

1. The happiness study is flawed: We are not happy; and if happiness was a one-dimensional measure that was comparable across countries and cultures we would not be number one, nowhere near.

2. We are overtaxed, our welfare system is too big and bureaucratic: Filled with freeloaders, unmotivated cival servants, unsustainable rising pension costs, ill incentives that are destroying innovation and initiative.

3. Globalization is killing us: Our industries are being outcompeted, our welfare system is being exploited thru an influx of poor immigrants, our internal solidarity is gone; the beggars, petty thieves and hookers you see on the street are foreigners (though they live here for years) with no entitlements to any social support and no one is helping them since everyone thinks it is the job of the state.

DanishExpat2• 11 years ago

There's no developed society in the world that doesn't have it's share of people who hold some version of those exact views.

That's why the article covered this view point but ultimately concluded that when those Danes were asked which other country they would rather live in, the response was silence.

I live in the US and pay an enormous amount of taxes that do not go towards improving society the way they would in Denmark. Close to 80% of people routinely vote in general elections in Denmark. This means that by and large Danes have the government and the polices they want.

seivan2• 11 years ago

Pretty much this. Applies to Sweden as well.

SyneRyder4• 11 years ago

Interesting! The handful of Danes I know / met were all very adamant that Denmark is the happiest nation on earth, so it's interesting to me to hear a Dane disagree, even partially.

The comment about beggars & hookers being foreigners also rings true with my experience of CPH. I'd been led to believe that everyone has access to welfare in DK, but it would make sense if non-citizen non-EU immigrants do not.

seivan2• 11 years ago

Wow, is this Malmö you talk about? And only last year? You must be working for the Swedish Pravda State News aka SVT.

Copenhagen banned begging so they all came the to Sweden. I have no opinon on this.

Malmö as a city is supported by other cities. Malmö itself is in deep debt and not self sustainable. It's not going to make if you ask me. This is why I don't invest in OMX now.

Also, major homophobia and anti-semitism, but maybe that falls under "colourful".

SyneRyder4• 11 years ago

Actually I do like SVT, I'm a fan of Melodifestivalen and The Bridge (Saga Noren is the best!). I don't work for them though.

You're right that Malmö (and Sweden) has racism issues, so it's not utopia. Not sure about the homophobia in Malmö though: Eurovision 2013 in Malmö was fine, but at Eurovision 2014 in Copenhagen I had a DR reporter try to interview me for a story on Eurovision bringing immoral gay values into Copenhagen. I was stunned at how open the homophobia was in Copenhagen.

By "colorful" I meant literally color - the bright colors & grassy rooftop garden of Malmö's Emporia Shopping Center vs Copenhagen's more grey tones. (I tried to love Sønder Blvd, it was nice but not quite as pretty as I'd hoped.)

legulere• 11 years ago

I pretty much had the opposite experience. To me Malmö seemed like just like a dead suburb of Copenhagen. I never saw beggars in Copenhagen, though I saw some bottle collectors (those are really common in Germany, but the deposit is also higher). In Sweden beggars are really common in front of supermarkets.

_delirium3• 11 years ago

"Happiest country in the world" poster in the airport felt like creepy state propaganda.

Fwiw this is corporate propaganda, not state propaganda— it's a Carlsberg poster. Like Corona trying to sell beer on a certain image of Mexico, Carlsberg is trying to sell beer on a certain image of Denmark.

Copenhagen had lots of visible social issues.

Interesting. Coming from the U.S., the lack of visible social issues is one of the more surprising things. Compared to other places I've lived, like San Francisco and Atlanta, everything feels much safer and better run. I don't worry about walking home alone at 3am in Copenhagen the way I would even in nice parts of Atlanta. The public transit system is also much, much nicer than any other one I've used, generally being clean, on time, and running 24/7. I think the only place I've been that felt better-run and safer than Copenhagen was Zürich.

My friends all stayed at different AirBnBs across the city, and yet all of our apartments looked nearly identical: same floorboards, same IKEA furniture, even the exact same brand & size of TV.

I think this is more that AirBnB is only used by an narrow social segment. Residences I've been in vary from quasi-aristocratic decor (chandeliers, classical busts, etc., especially common in the inner city and Frederiksberg), to a minimalist "design apartment" style of all-white and geometric, and to a rustic look of dark wooden paneling and heavy dark-stained wooden furniture. The latter is what I think of as a "typical" Danish furnishing, but it's more common in the homes of older people.

SyneRyder4• 11 years ago

It's a Carlsberg poster

Aha! I'd thought it was a Copenhagen Tourism poster, this helps make it less creepy.

Compared to other places I've lived, like San Francisco and Atlanta, everything feels much safer and better run.

I can agree with that, Copenhagen feels safer than many US cities (SF, Seattle, Vegas, Philly) but I think Portland is nicer & friendlier than Copenhagen. Copenhagen really made me appreciate Australian cities, and places like Berlin (my favorite city).

The public transit system is also much, much nicer than any other one I've used

I thought Malmö's transport system was better than Copenhagen's, love their trains & buses and the JoJo system. Triangeln Station was just beautiful[1][2][3]. Malmö's disco taxis with mirrorballs & flashing lights & iPad controlled video jukebox were so much fun. Germany's U-Bahn is still my favorite public transport system though.

[1] http://pfnphoto.com/new/malmo-triangeln/

[2] http://www.arkitektur.se/ur_arkitektur/station-triangeln-mal...

[3] http://railzone.nl/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/5234...

DanishExpat2• 11 years ago

The "low expectations" trope trotted out again. When almost every important economic and social metric is in world leading territory, then I think it'd be better expressed as "ambitious, but realistic expectations".

The Danish do not exclusively hold the secret to happiness. As the article ultimately concedes, it's not a secret that egalitarian societies are happier, which - from a Danish perspective - means they're more successful.

adventured• 11 years ago

Does anyone have an opinion on why Denmark has such a high household debt to income ratio [1]? At 300% plus debt to income, they're basically the most indebted households on earth. Debt per adult is 4th highest in the world [2]. The median wealth per adult is similar to the US, but they're carrying twice as much debt [3].

That would seem to be an extreme threat to future happiness. It seems very out of place with the culture.

[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-06/world-s-hi...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per...

[3] http://angrybearblog.com/2014/10/u-s-median-wealth-up-from-2...

cylinder2• 11 years ago

Same with Australia, for a supposedly "laid back and happy" place they are all loaded up with big mortgage obligations just to be able to have shelter.

petermonsson• 11 years ago

The current 30 year interest rate on housing is 2%. That is a fixed rate if you take out a loan. The financial markets are extremely confident in Danes abilities to pay off their debt. Denmark is a safe haven for bonds just after Switzerland.

mclemme2• 11 years ago

Best way I ever heard the law of jante described, was in a TV-show about the Danes for an American TV-channel ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_jo69ZTwbE ).

Where some dude says "They have this thing called jantelaw, which essentically says that you're no better than anybody else, a garbage man can live in a middleclass neighborhood and hold his head high." - Which I think is a nice way to look at it.

Of course there's differences and social "classes", but there is some truth to the contentedness of many Danes, many people know that more stuff will not necessarily make them happier, so why work so hard to earn money for it?

mclide• 11 years ago

Alternative title: You shall not think you're happier than we are.

fapjacks• 11 years ago

I personally believe that Jantelagen are a shield against the kind of corrupt sociopathy that's developing in the United States which is causing income inequality, awful social services, higher taxes (with no return), and persistent wars. It's been my secret belief that having these kinds of core values ingrained in your society will somewhat keep that kind of awful behavior from expressing itself. It's not just a Danish thing, but a Scandinavian thing (my experience having been with the Swedes). Jantelagen should be celebrated.

earth2jason• 11 years ago

This sounds like a hit piece to me. Too much generalizations that seem to be thinly disguised pre-props for proganda.

We all know that the Danish has one of the best social welfare systems in the world and it is a system created by a government that has one of the highest rates of voter participation in the world. So seems to me that they like what they have. However, some self interested big wigs might have a different idea.

The idea that there is no creativity or inventiveness seems dishonest to me. For one, we are talking about a region that is a small fraction of the population of other nations. It is statistically correct that they are not the "most" innovative region in the world. Yet in fact, they are one of the leaders in software innovation and other tech industry movements. Seems to me they they are statistically ahead of the curve.

Also, all the Danish I've ever met (well the few that I have) are awesome people in general. I'd say that I've had probably the best conversations and times with my Danish friends and the same goes true with many other people from that region. So the rings to me that they are not just happy because of the "welfare state", but because they, unlike the author's narrow reporting, do have a thriving culture.

With that being said, I don't trust the intentions of this article. But that's just my opinion, I guess.

The Danish Don't Have the Secret to Happiness

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