Scientists are suggesting that depression is a result of inflammation

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jan/04/depression-allergic-reaction-inflammation-immune-system

by ck425 • 12 years ago

129 90 12 years ago

visakanv• 12 years ago

The "is" is more of a "might be". But it does seem fairly plausible. (The inverse seems less likely- that depression has absolutely nothing to do with the body.) I'm guessing that as with most complex phenomena, depression has a range of causal factors, and results from an interplay of many things.

It will definitely be great if further research in this area helps to lessen the stigma around depression and other ailments.

DiabloD35• 12 years ago

I think this is extremely possible. During my research into Paleo (which has helped me tremendously, and I suggest anyone who has trouble keeping off the pounds, performing at work, or focusing in life to take a look at it), I've considered the possible link myself, but since I'm not a scientist I didn't have any way of looking into this.

However, one of Paleo's major goals is to eliminating inflammation, and Paleo, for a large number of people, have lessened or completely eliminated the symptoms of depression, and I've seriously considered that there has to be some sort of link.

Edit: Not sure why I'm getting downvoted here. n=1 experimental data may not be the best thing, but in the absence of studies like the one linked to, its all we have to go on.

manticore_alpha3• 12 years ago

Don't know why you're being downvoted.

I experienced the same results on strict Paleo. Strict as in, absolutely cooking everything myself in Coconut Oil - that strict.

I experienced a back injury and got off Predisone and Percocet within a month -- I owe largely to the inflammation reducing effects of the Paleo diet.

simplexion6• 12 years ago

You are getting down-voted because Paleo is not scientific.

DiabloD35• 12 years ago

A diet whose only goal is to use science to eat nutritious food that is not toxic in any way and engineer a diet to do so, is not scientific?

Explain to me how that works.

manticore_alpha3• 12 years ago

You may disagree with the use of "Paleo" nomenclature, but the pillars of the diet are sound - and a 1,000% improvement on the USDA food pyramid.

ajcarpy20053• 12 years ago

You could say that about any diet. To vastly simplify Paleo, it's like chicken instead of sugary fruit loops. In other words, it goes counter to what may be convenient to eat, colorful, or marketed and branded really well to consumers. That in itself doesn't make it scientific but it starts with an assumption that the easiest and most popular/likable foods are not necessarily the only foods we should eat for long-term health.

phkahler2• 12 years ago

> You are getting down-voted because Paleo is not scientific.

Weather or not the basis of Paleo is sound is not relevant to his point. Not only does he claim benefits for himself, but notes that others seem to agree in similar ways.

I'm really getting pissed at the commercial medial establishment for denying anything that doesn't have clinical trial can be good. Plants or minerals that have helped people for thousands of years are called "homeopathic" or "alternative" by real doctors. Now we're seeing studies that claim various things have no benefit "for people on an already healthy diet" as a footnote. Yet good old aspirin is a plant derivative, as are some other things. But I digress. His point is independent of the basis for the diet and hence should not be downvoted for that.

kaitai• 12 years ago

I feel like this is one of those instances where someone is responding to a different conversation (not necessarily you, but many of the respondents). Who said Paleo is scientific? A diet along those lines, for me, reduces mood swings, hunger, and the combination (hangriness), while being tasty and improving the list of numbers they measure at the doctor's office. We do all have to live with our n=1, after all. Eat what's truly tasty and makes your life good!

Somewhere there is a flame war about what the Paleolithic humans ate, and whether that was what we are nicknaming "paleo" now. We shouldn't take the names too seriously, though, or we'll be confused about what the South Beach diet is (big macs?), the Beyonce diet (...?), etc. Low-fat and low-cholesterol diets have accurately descriptive names. Not catchy. Also once seemingly backed by science, which was incomplete enough to be wrong or influenced heavily by agricultural lobbyists.

An discussion about whether "reducing inflammation" as discussed on the internet is scientific would be interesting. The article mentions curcumin and omega-3s: what do we really know?

UrMomReadsHN3• 12 years ago

The entire idea of the "paleo diet" is based off of quacky.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/01/30/jane-says-if-you-...

When I go through my depression episodes I am unable to eat for days. Food tastes like cardboard and is repulsive. If i eat more than a couple bites I vomit. Yet not eating doesn't make me less depressed.

So the idea of just eliminating the current fad "inflammatory food" just doesn't seem plausible to me. Especially since the food seems to change with time.

Many people resent being told they "just need to cut out grains/meat/sugar/fruit/cooked food." Food fads come and food fads go.

hristov3• 12 years ago

Paleo mostly helps because it eliminates refined sugar. It may eliminate some very mild symptoms of depression because sugar causes mild depression after the initial sugar high. Other than eliminating refined sugar, paleo is not very useful and there are much healthier sugar free diets out there.

And the scientific justification for paleo is just false. Ancient humans did not eat that much meat.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but you put in a mostly off-topic plug for paleo, so a response was justified.

nether2• 12 years ago

And the scientific justification for paleo is just false. Ancient humans did not eat that much meat.

What about native Inuit populations whose diets were nearly 100% meat?

madamepsychosis• 12 years ago

Anecdata here - as a teen, I had depression. I would take ibuprofen a few times a day when it got really bad, it helped a lot. It would lift my mood from dulled, paralysing rumination to merely sad. I think I started doing it after reading a study like the one in the link. It's a popular theory there are many different diseases that fall under the label 'depression', which is why patients often try multiple antidepressants until one works - perhaps this inflammatory one is just one of them.

ajcarpy20053• 12 years ago

If I may, do you still medicate in the same way, use something different, or has your depression improved, or what?

manticore_alpha3• 12 years ago

There's honestly a very simple recipe to combat about 85% of depression. The other 15% does require SSRI / therapy / etc.

- Clean up your sleep. - Clean up your diet. - Exercise, at full intensity, for 8-15 minutes a day. Weight training mixed in as well. - Get sunlight or supplement with Vitamin D.

Oh, and have great friends. That helps.

babby• 12 years ago

Diet Can reduce inflammation
Sleep Reduces inflammation http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101114161939.ht...
Exercise Reduces inflammation http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22390642
Vitamin D Reduces inflammation http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120223103920.ht...

We might have a pattern here.

alecco3• 12 years ago

It's sad the only sound advise is down voted yet fad diets by journalists get up voted.

valas• 12 years ago

Yea, not sure why you are getting downvoted. Could anyone comment why downvotes? All sounds like reasonable advice (except that, of course, numbers like 85/15% is a bit handwavy, but I don't think author meant them to be precise).

tasty_freeze2• 12 years ago

What I'm about to say isn't to deny that inflammation might trigger or contribute to depression. In fact, anyone who thinks depressed people are just self-indulgent whiners and that there is no biochemical basis for depression are simply living in the 1950s.

My wife has clinical depression. To describe depression, as this article does, as just not wanting to get off the couch is hugely insulting to people with clinical depression.

My wife isn't alone in wishing that there was another word for "depression" of the sort arises because your team lost, your dog died, you got passed over for a promotion. Those are disappointing and can be a problem in the short term.

Clinical depression is not just not wanting to get off the couch. It is a profound loss of hope, and the inability to even connect with your previous mental state of what it was like to have hope or find things interesting. The present appears fucked, and even after racking your brain for some way out, every path looks even more dismal. Situations in the real world are often complicated and can be interpreted in more than one way, but to a depressed person, the most terrible interpretation is evaluated as being a very likely outcome. And, just like 9/11 conspiracy theorists construct self-consistent theories by bending facts and through selective filtering, clinically depressed people often build an elaborate, self-consistent understanding that, yes, they and their future are completely fucked.

WalterSear2• 12 years ago

And even when things are going well, there's no way to feel happiness.

JohnBooty• 12 years ago

  My wife isn't alone in wishing that there was another
  word for "depression" of the sort arises because your 
  team lost, your dog died, you got passed over for a 
  promotion. Those are disappointing and can be a problem 
  in the short term.

FWIW, depression resulting from those sorts of events is typically termed "situational depression." Regarding everything else you said: totally on board. And I wish you and your wife lots of strength and luck.

erikpukinskis• 12 years ago

I'm someone who has ranged from what I would call mild to moderate depression. I've had periods approaching year-scale where I found no particular joy and struggled to find any hope. I immersed myself in reading and work, and lived a difficult, one-dimensional life.

I have no idea how that compares to your wife's experience. I'm not particularly interested in drawing comparisons.

I would like to ask you: why does your wife need a different word? Why not just say one bout of depression is more severe and one is more mild?

To me it's the same as autism or cancer or any other sickness. Sometimes it's a challenge, and sometimes it's a wrecking ball through your life. What's inadequate about using an adjective for that?

tjradcliffe2• 12 years ago

The need for a different word comes from a bit of linguistic trickery we tend to perform.

Because we tend to think of people with "depression" as being "depressed", we are apt to ask questions, like, "What do you have depression about?"

This question makes no more sense than "What do you have cancer about?" (thanks to Stephen Fry for the comparison) but because it does make sense to ask, "What are you depressed about?" it can be difficult to explain this to people.

Physiologically, it isn't at all clear that "depression" and "being depressed" are species of the same genus. The latter is a transient, perfectly healthy, emotional state. The former is a persistent, unhealthy neuro-physical state.

So having less similar words for things of a different kind that are often confused would be a good thing.

superuser22• 12 years ago

why does your wife need a different word?

Because stories like yours, in context, tend to say (in subtext or not) "I was sad once but then I did X and I was fine, so what are you whining about? Just go do X!" This often includes an implication that the depressed person should not receive empathy, comfort, or even respect because their failure to make themselves 'snap out of it' indicates a moral weakness that ought to be punished. The statement may or may not include something along the lines of "she just likes drama" or "she just wants attention."

From the perspective of someone with a more or less normal emotional range, this kind of makes internal sense. You've been sad before, you equate that with the depressed person's mental state, and then you think, "Wait, when I was sad, at least I didn't Y or mope around in front of my friends or ask for disability accomodiations, etc. That person is weak and needy and whining." If your experiences were, in fact, equivalent, that might be valid.

But they are not. Not close. Not by several orders of magnitude. It's like seeing someone throw up and chiding them for not knowing their limits, when in fact they are in chemotherapy.

UrMomReadsHN3• 12 years ago

Different word because there is a colloquial meaning "I am depressed because my car died on the way to work" or "Wow, that movie was depressing." which isn't even in the same ballpark as the disease.

tasty_freeze2• 12 years ago

The other replies have beat me to the punch, and they have it right. Other people have been depressed about things in the passing sense of depression, and they think whatever got them out of their depression will also work for my wife, and they often share their advice with her. After hearing scores of simplistic suggestions, my wife is reluctant to describe herself as having depression: not out of shame or embarrassment, but because she wants to avoid the maddening anger she feels when a well-intentioned person glibly offers advice.

"Oh, that is so sad. When I had depression, I found that picking up a new hobby, like gardening, did wonders for me! I have some gardening books you can borrow."

"Depression? Well, the trick is to just put whatever it is that caused it behind you."

"How can you be depressed? You look great, you have a wonderful family, and you are in good health! Stop focusing on the negative and open your eyes to the great things you have!"

"Where do you attend church?" ... "Oh, you don't? What you need to do is let Jesus Christ into your life. God has a wonderful plan for you and I'm sure you'll be better once you open your ears and listen to His message. Once you realize that Jesus walks with you every step and loves you unconditionally, it will absolutely lift your spirits up!"

"I was depressed too, but then I found this wonderful energy worker. He completely reshaped my life energy field and I've never felt better. What is your email? You need to call him today!"

mrec• 12 years ago

clinically depressed people often build an elaborate, self-consistent understanding that, yes, they and their future are completely fucked

Which reinforces the apathy and anhedonia, which (assuming you're aware of them) just feed back into the mental model. Obvious vicious circle is obvious, but still vicious.

coldtea4• 12 years ago

What I'm about to say isn't to deny that inflammation might trigger or contribute to depression. In fact, anyone who thinks depressed people are just self-indulgent whiners and that there is no biochemical basis for depression are simply living in the 1950s.

Well, there's also us, who don't believe "depressed people are just self-indulgent whiners" but don't believe depression is just a "biochemical distrubance" either.

Rather, it's a byproduct of a seriously messed up world/society/personal relations landscape, that depressed individuals are more sensitive to or have felt more deeply. (This is not the same as "situational depression" -- I'm talking about the real deal, where still the causes can be numerous and not known to the sufferer at a conscious level).

(I find the whole "it's all just bio-chemistry" idea akin to reductionistic scientism. It's inherent in the prevalent attittude to not attempt to go beyond that level and question "why the inbalance", except in mechanistic terms).

SamReidHughes2• 12 years ago

Rather, it's a byproduct of a seriously messed up world/society/personal relations landscape, that depressed individuals are more sensitive to or have felt more deeply.

You can proclaim whatever you want, that don't make it true.

Alex39172• 12 years ago

Rather, it's a byproduct of a seriously messed up world/society/personal relations landscape, that depressed individuals are more sensitive to or have felt more deeply.

- Even if this were true, that doesn't preclude depression from causing biochemical changes (e.g. inflammation).

- Saying this is the only cause of depression doesn't make a lot of sense because it doesn't account for, say, post-surgical or post-viral depression.

throwawaybcporn• 12 years ago

Rather, it's a byproduct of a seriously messed up world/society/personal relations landscape, that depressed individuals are more sensitive to or have felt more deeply.

As I went to bed last night, I found myself thinking about this comment.

A couple of years ago, I was working at a well-known tech company and doing very well. My boss was a legitimate, clinical psychopath, but I made the most of it, working hard, coming in on weekends and snow days, etc. For my effort and talent, I received a raise and super-secret "restricted stock units we only give to the people we want to keep" after only a few months. My final performance review was glowing.

Having had enough of my boss and feeling that I'd built up enough runway to make a jump, I asked my boss's boss for a transfer to a different manager. The request was received positively and as it was in process, my immediate boss found out (probably from another manager asking about me) and summarily fired me. The act of cleaning out my desk and saying an awkward goodbye to people in the office is as clear to me as if it happened yesterday.

Because he had neglected to consult with his management chain about it, he was also out the door as soon as the threat of a lawsuit from me had passed a few months later. (If you're wondering, I did make some empty legal threats after the fact, which is why I couldn't go back. In retrospect, I probably could have returned if I'd kept my cool. I regret this mistake more than anything I did beforehand, without a doubt.)

Since then, I've suffered from PTSD, extreme anxiety and secondary depression, have been almost completely unemployed and largely withdrew from normal society. I don't have many friends anymore, don't date, don't go out... I basically just keep to myself, code, and play video games. Interacting with people didn't work out so well, so I guess, subconsciously and maybe a little consciously, I just decided not to deal with them anymore.

Getting back to your comment, @coldtea, I've often wondered which is true: Do I (a) have a "chemical imbalance" caused by unmet life expectations that causes me to be anxious and depressed or am I (b) depressed because the veil that had theretofore kept me from seeing/understanding the true shitty nature of the world was lifted?

I find my mind frequently drifting into "wow, everything is fucked up" territory. And there's plenty of fuel to keep the engine running. Everything from terrorism to wealth inequality to labor destruction to race issues to dictatorships to privacy loss to partisan gridlock in Washington... the world is absolutely and in a thousand different ways, flagrantly unfair. Then I get even further depressed about feeling depressed when I compare my relatively cushy life to that of, say, a Palestinian or Ugandan.

Wealth (and as a corollary, race) inequality is the one that gets me the most. Technology is advancing to post-scarcity -- the point where there are enough resources on this globe that everyone should be able to make it by with minimal (or even zero) effort.

But that's not what's happening. Keynes was wrong about the 15-hour work week of the future. Instead, we've gotten a bi-modal distribution of the disgustingly wealthy and growing numbers (in the US) of the destitute who have to work more hours at degrading jobs just to get by. Most people still have to work at things they do not enjoy, an artificial construct held in place by the powers that be. In this 21st century, there is enough to go around, it's just not distributed properly.

To be clear, I don't mind working and have a long history of hopefully-interesting side-projects (which I'd hoped would break me out of the must-work 99% group). What I do mind is working for "them" because I need to make X dollars to live in the world "they" have constructed. Even when I did work for "them" I didn't hate it. But now... it's harder to accept.

What pill is going to make me forget these harsh realities of the world? What pill is going to make me say "Oh sure, I'll get a wife and have some kids, even though they'll be relegated to psuedo-slavery just like I am." None.

So I think what you said (which I quoted above) is dead-right. Because of an event in my life, my eyes were opened to the real unfairness of the world.

And that's the real reason I struggle with depression -- my understanding of the world improved.

sambe• 12 years ago

I agree that depression is an overused word and wish your wife the best.

However, the article absolutely does not say that depression is "just not wanting to get off the couch". It specifically states that this is referred to as sickness behaviour, not depression, and the very next paragraph contrasts them as distinct but superficially similar.

chazu• 12 years ago

Thank you for posting this. As someone who has dealt with crippling Major Depressive Disorder for over half of my 30 years so far, and who would not be alive without SSRIs, these kinds of misunderstandings on the topic of depression are gravely insulting.

bertil• 12 years ago

My wife isn't alone in wishing that there was another word for "depression" of the sort

You won't be understood (my girlfriend is a psychiatrist, so I can guaranteed it's never used medically) but 'acedia' is a lost Latin word that corresponds well: it was the original word for the cardinal sin now known as Sloth, and was described as a profound and dark disease of the soul. How the sin changed is a fascinating piece of spiritual and theological history -- shifting the definition of sins from things that hurt you to things you can do something about. Now that clinical depression is something that offers potential treatment options, that debate might re-enter the rarefied spheres of moral debates.

alecco3• 12 years ago

A lot of Guardian stories around, this one from a very suspicious account.

coldtea4• 12 years ago

What's "very suspicious" about the account? Checked, and he's been active for a year and a half, has posted 2 stories, and has participated in the comments a little more.

That the 2 stories are both from Guardian could just mean it's one other outlet he regularly reads besides HN. Heck, I read it too, and I'm not even British. Maybe because it's one of the best news sources? (and far better than most US based news outlets).

(As if the Guardian needs HN hits...)

ck4252• 12 years ago

As coldtea correctly guessed the Guardian is the main other new source I read. I don't see what else is suspicious about my account?

alecco3• 12 years ago

Your account didn't have activity for ages and has only 1 other submission from 320 days ago and last comment from 207 days ago. Sorry if this is not the case.

xacaxulu• 12 years ago

"No disease that can be treated by diet should be treated with any other means."

~Maimonides

Spooky23• 12 years ago

I had a severe back issue that resulted in a lot of inflammation. Inflammation that was tested to levels about 5x of the average 90 year old -- when I was 22!

It was pure misery... I would get sick often, get tired, etc. It sucked. When I was given Vioxx for a few weeks, which made me feel like a million bucks!

hristov3• 12 years ago

This is very interesting. Is there any way one can check if one is suffering from inflammation?

WalterSear2• 12 years ago

You might as well check for your pulse: inflammation isn't a disease, it's a signaling system used by your body. The problem is that often your body reaction has potential to causes problems of it's own.

Think of it like the police. For some things (white person is speeding, deserves a ticket), their reaction can be fine and appropriate. Under other circumstances (black person selling cigarettes illegally), they are more of a problem than the one they are intended to solve.

Alex39172• 12 years ago

Yes, you can just ask your regular doctor to do this for you. Although if you happen to already have a sports medicine doctor, they might be more accustomed to doing these sorts of tests. Harj actually has a post on this here: http://blog.harjtaggar.com/my-experiments-with-preventing-he...

Your inflammation levels can vary a lot throughout the day and week though, so unless you're going to get it measured 10+ times then you're probably not going to get great data. So it might just be easier to look for an open clinical trial that you can enroll in where they will do this for you for free.

coding4all• 12 years ago

The reason why the word depression is too general is because depression is a normal conceptial state that everyone will endure at least once in life. Real, debilitating, actual depression, is life-long and persist regardless of any one event. It's not just a function of the mind or an emotional relationship related to life, but an absence that can only be described as emotionally detached, sociopathic, and even as an obligation of guilt and doubt simply for existing in a time you can't accept.

panhandlr• 12 years ago

I like to refer to depression as a cliff that is always one step behind you.

sbierwagen• 12 years ago

Source article: http://www.biolmoodanxietydisord.com/content/4/1/10

nether2• 12 years ago

Criticism of an earlier claim for a depression blood test:

http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/2014/09/25/critique-claim...

thevagrant2• 12 years ago

I absolutely believe depression and inflammation are linked.

I have tested this myself (n=1) as I suffer from an ongoing depression. I also have a brother who has withdrawn from the world completely and I would consider that he is highly crippled from depression.

My realisation that this problem is linked to inflammation occured a few years ago. My depression was at it's worst and I was barely functioning. I am still not who I was but I'm doing ok.

While I was at my worst, I considered that perhaps my diet contributed to my poor health.

Through careful testing I discovered that foods with gluten or casein protein caused me to feel awful. After removing these foods 100% from my diet, there was an improvement but certainly not a full recovery.

I've always had bad seasonal allergies but I had never considered that my whole body was inflamed. Strangely, by chance, I found that fexofenadine (an antihistamine) would lift my depression temporarily after taking it for a week. If I continued taking it, then slowly the depression came back. My best explanation is that the signaling process of inflammation dampens the ability for my brain to think clearly. Since discovering this, I found other things that helped:

I quit caffeine 100% as it seemed to also have a negative effect for me (when for years it lifted my depression, now it's clear I am best to do without).

I no longer drink alcohol.

I've worked hard to remove sugar and processed foods.

I've found that daily running will help lift my depression greatly.

Another helpful item I found was licorice tea which I use sparingly. This had powerful anti-inflammatory properties which I have found useful.

For years I had very bad sleep habits. I've corrected these and always sleep to a schedule now. Even so, I still rarely wake up feeling rested.

I feel much better than I used to and can get by but still do not feel quite right. I'm looking into meditation now.

There are a large number of other things (including SSRI's) I've tried/tested but I can't go into all these right now.

I've been pretty careful in my experimentation, I have been testing this for years now and know what works for me but I suspect depression has more than a single cause.

My best advice to everyone is to exercise, eat healthy and try to lead a balanced lifestyle.

thevagrant2• 12 years ago

I just want to add something I forgot to mention. I've also learnt that isolation is generally something best avoided while depressed. It may feel counter intuitive when you are in that state of mind but I've had a spontaneous lift from depression on multiple occasions when I have been in social situations. To withdraw is not a good idea.

webnrrd2k• 12 years ago

You say you still rarely get restful sleep. Have you had any formal sleep studies? Lack of quality sleep can cause a lot of the problems you have experienced, so you might consider getting one done. Also, your doctor should know how to differentiate between obstructive sleep apnea, central sleep apnea, and any other issues you think may be contributing to your problem.

ugexe• 12 years ago

It sounds like actively trying to do anything seems to have helped you, regardless of what it is. Perhaps making an effort to do something (anything) is what is helping you, and not the acts themselves.

joyofdata• 12 years ago

To consider "something" as just _in the mind_ v/s being physically rooted is similar too considering software bugs trivial b/c software can easily be changed compared to hardware that is broken.

To extend the analogy - asking a depressive patient to just sort it out mentally is like trying to debug a debugger using that same debugger!?

marknutter• 12 years ago

I wonder if this doesn't also cause the symptoms associated with fibromyalgia. I've always been fairly skeptical about Fibromyalgia but try not to be for the same reasons it's not productive to be skeptical about clinical depression as s disease, but perhaps they are both linked to inflamation.

Scientists are suggesting that depression is a result of inflammation

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