How we built Flow

https://medium.com/@senic/how-we-built-flow-c83dea6ca377

by katm • 12 years ago

197 46 12 years ago

The first thing I noticed from the video was how delicately people were using the device.

Not sure a majority of the developers I know would be able to be as dainty with something like this. Most type with heavy hands, beat up their mouse on a regular basis and have many keyboard shortcuts to reduce dev time in their Adobe programs.

For these people, using something which looks and is demonstrated as being very delicate, would not last long in their hands.

Having said that, how durable is this?

twald7• 12 years ago

one of the founders here. Thanks for the comment. It's pretty durable. It's made from turned metal and acrylic glass. It will survive drops from tables and walls. It is mainly aimed at people who need sensitivity and pixel-perfect controls in graphic design, 3D modeling or video editing. But it is built on an open platform so it can also be used for things like music.

wlesieutre3• 12 years ago

Looks like a more flexible (and wireless) version of Griffin's PowerMate[1]. The last hardware I crowdfunded is still mired in delays, but I like this idea enough to try it again.

A couple of questions, if you don't mind:

* Roughly how heavy is it? For physical objects like knobs, I like a bit of heft. Not as big a deal here as in a SpaceNavigator where it's pushing back instead of spinning freely, but I'm curious.

* Specs mention a 4 month battery life. Is that a AAA where I can use a rechargeable, or some sort of button cell? Or not yet finalized?

* How does software support work? I see it has smooth brush size control in Photoshop, but can I expect it to work that well in less common software like Leonardo or Mischief? Or will it have to be bound to keyboard shortcuts that change things in large steps like the square brackets in Photoshop?

Thanks!

[1] http://store.griffintechnology.com/powermate

bravo225• 12 years ago

Question -- why does your campaign involve "EMV" & FCC certification? Do you mean CE?!

Osama011• 12 years ago

cool device, i will buy it.

lnanek2• 12 years ago

Not certain their use case of brush size has any relevance. Most graphics designers have a tablet and can easily set brush size to pressure control, or they just hold down the hot key that lets you adjust brush size by moving your mouse/pen so they already have analog input to brush size any time they want. Maybe some of the other professions they mention are more lacking in equipment, however. It is kind of weird talking about how hard it is to get to the brush size dialog, though, when no one uses that unless they are an amateur...

jansen• 12 years ago

This argument sounds a lot like blackberry vs iPhone to me tbh. I frequently use tablets and yet setting brush size was never great, hot keys being the blackberry. I am very excited about this device, which feels like the right next step, the iPhone.

DocG• 12 years ago

I agree. Although I believe it might have many uses in other areas, in Photoshop I am fastest with one hand on drawing tablet and other on keyboard. Having 3 modifier + all one key shortcuts/tools under my fingers is the fastest way. Specially in digital painting I might sample color, change size, paint, pan, erase, sample, reverse color, zoom; new layer all within 10-20 seconds. (alt; alt-right click pen; b; left click on pen; e; alt; x; alt+left click pen; ctrl+shift+n)

brush size? even faster than flow is alt+pen right click and hover pen on tablet.

Edit: I would thin it would be really neat music controller. I could see use in there(specially in party's)

mikelbring• 12 years ago

Because I skim through a lot of articles at first to determine if something is even worth reading. I thought this was how the task management app Flow [1] was built. I thought they where trolling with some of the hardware and "Angular" stuff, then I realized sometimes skimming isn't the best approach.

[1] https://www.getflow.com/

letney• 12 years ago

...while I thought it would be covering Facebook's Flow project posted here a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8625222

_asummers• 12 years ago

Could also be confused with Square's Flow library.

https://github.com/square/flow/

adwf• 12 years ago

Love the idea! I'm always looking to see if any gesture recognition controls will take off for computers, this seems like a very good one as it doesn't involve raising your hands to any excessive degree. There have been gesture devices in the past, but they all seem to want you to raise your arms and wave them about in large-ish motions. Good to see a device that I can still rest my elbows on the desk and just wave at! I can see this becoming like a 2nd mouse to the left of my keyboard, a power device for certain apps.

I will just add one slight tip if I may. The first two sentences of this page don't really explain what the product is:

"We (YC S13) just launched our product “Flow” on Indiegogo. It’s a programmable and intuitive wireless controller that that gives you high precision and speed."

I was left wondering what it was a controller of? An RC plane? A games console? Industrial machinery? Just add "controller for your computer" and it'll read a lot better. It's not helped by the fact that the gif below only shows a hand waving over a circular thing with no visible feedback from a computer screen ;)

twald7• 12 years ago

Done. Thank you for your feedback!

state• 12 years ago

I really want more things like this to exist, but I can't say exactly why or what I would use them for.

I hope this thing will succeed, but I can't imagine what the exact market is or whether its big enough to sustain this project.

twald7• 12 years ago

That is one of the major changes that are happening. * Existing user interfaces (screens, mouse, keyboard) have made sense because they were the lowest common denominator and because prices could be kept low this way. * Now, prices for hardware are dropping (we will soon have the first wifi chip for less than 1 USD.). That means that we can explore completely new user interfaces, ones that are perfectly designed for the person and their needs. You don't need to have a user interface anymore that is designed for billions of people. You can manufacture several kinds of user interfaces quickly and that suit millions of people, just better. * Manufacturing is also becoming much easier and cheaper. There are more and more robots that can do complex work. They are also becoming cheaper and more capable which also influences this aspect. * I believe that the future of user interfaces does not lie in centralized, generic devices but distributed, specific interfaces.

jseliger• 12 years ago

I really want more things like this to exist, but I can't say exactly why or what I would use them for.

I feel the same way and have enough spare cash to back it. Twald's explanation makes some sense, but really I think this is the essential part: "That means that we can explore completely new user interfaces, ones that are perfectly designed for the person and their needs," because I translate it to mean, "We don't entirely know what'll end up happening."

I'm happy existing in that state of ambiguity, however, and for $100 it seems worthwhile to find out what the future might hold.

twald7• 12 years ago

We have a few products in mind that would instantly add value. Think about your feet or objects and surfaces around you like a table. Why not use them? Why not blend technology into natural things that use more senses than just your eyes and a reduced form of haptics.

munificent• 12 years ago

If you want programmable high-resolution knobs, this is an area that the music industry has had covered quite well for a long time. A quick Googling for "midi controller knob" brings up:

Livid Alias 8

Livid DS 1

Nektar Panorama P1

MIDI Fighter Twister

Behringer B-Control Rotary BCR2000

Akai LPD8

The last one is about seventy bucks and gives you eight independent knobs and eight pads.

Of course, there's value in minimalism and a good UX for configuring/programming the knob(s), but there's also something to be said for just trying to solve the problem yourself based on what's currently available. If a $70 MIDI controller makes your Photoshop experience noticeably better, great. If not, a single knob might not end up being worth it either, regardless of how well-made it is.

oz• 12 years ago

Would't using them require application support, like how DAWs support the Mackie Control protocol, among others?

bravo225• 12 years ago

If they are USB then they support HID

huuu• 12 years ago

Also such controls exist for the CAD/3D market for a long time.

For example 3dconnexion has a 'SpaceNavigator' available for around $120

johnrob• 12 years ago

This could also be a nice alternative to a steering wheel for driving/racing video games.

whiddershins• 12 years ago

I love any and all attempts to develop, improve, explore, the interface between humans and computers. I think it is one of the areas where not nearly enough is being done ... as a player of the continuum fingerboard, I quickly realized that a transformation of interface can have a more dramatic and meaningful impact on sound than the actual synthesis engine.

Roger Linn used to have a great demo on his page showing him playing a prototype Linnstrument using only a sawtooth wave with a lowpass filter, and it sounded more expressive than many top of the line physical modeling synths, because the dimensions of control were so impactful.

That said, the Photoshop example you give seems a little bit of a stretch. The Wacom tablet is a wonderful piece of human interface for Photoshop that addresses many of your concerns, and many other concerns, and has existed for years. For example, some Wacom pens have a ring on them that you can use to change brush sizes.

Wacom Tablet: http://blog.phaseone.com/work-faster-by-customizing-your-wac...

Continuum Fingerboard: http://www.hakenaudio.com/Continuum/

Linnstrument: http://www.rogerlinndesign.com/linnstrument.html

brackin• 12 years ago

I'll definitely buy this when it ships in 1-2 years.

vesche• 12 years ago

Article aside, I don't really understand how this is a cool (or even necessary) device... I watched the videos on their Kickstarter page, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it has three functions that I don't need: 1) The outside rotation for adjustments; Mouse wheel? 2) Basic swipe gesture recognition; Um, any button, and I don't have to be hands off the keyboard? 3) Touch tracking; Trackpad...?

th0ma5• 12 years ago

Reminds me of the Monome Arc which apparently isn't being built anymore, but here is a story about it http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/24/monome-arc-osc-controller... ... of course this adds the touch pointing and non-touch gestures which seems pretty cool, if they can deliver the thing.

wiffleballmike• 12 years ago

One of my coworkers has a Griffin Powermate[1]. It's corded and the software is a bit clunky but is quite similar, although it functions a bit more like a mouse. [1] http://store.griffintechnology.com/powermate

spdustin• 12 years ago

I was about to comment about that... I've had one for years and still find clever things to do with it. For example, when searching a project in my editor for a string, turning the knob jumps between search results.

It's amazing how much functionality you can eke out of such a simple input device.

It's made me consider other purpose-built init devices (like some of the midi controllers mentioned earlier). I have a Native Instruments controller designed for one of their massive sample libraries that I'd love to hack as a general purpose programmer's helper.

Anyone have any experience with such devices? What other clever uses of these alternate input devices am I missing out on?

ivanca• 12 years ago

Smartphones are largely unexplored as a secondary input devices. It can be a input for gestures (zooming, dragging, etc), as an extra place to add custom keys (think macros), custom sliders and other touch-based UI controls, or it can be a notification device ("compilation complete")

cromwellian• 12 years ago

This looks worse than a mouse. I'm just trying to imagine how I'd use this in a game like Call of Duty or Team Fortress. The modern optical mouse gives you precise movement and acceleration in 2 dimensions. The touch surface of this thing is too small to work better than a mouse in a game situation unless you crank the sensitivity way up at the cost of accuracy.

At first I thought it would be movable and contain an optical mouse tracker underneath it, but was disappointed to see it's basically a trackpad with a wheel and a gesture sensor.

Maybe it'll work good for many apps, but it seems every time I see something that tries to improve on the old mouse, it ends up looking worse, at least for my use case.

shortstuffsushi• 12 years ago

I'm not sure that this is meant to be a replacement for a mouse -- seems more like an additional tool for specific tasks (like the Photoshop task mentioned in the article).

imissmyjuno• 12 years ago

Aw, an advertisement blog post disguised as special insight.

tonylemesmer• 12 years ago

Plenty of comments here on how this problem has already been solved by other devices.

This one appears to be different by allowing functionality to be extended more easily via programming. 3dconexion spacemouse for example is not that easy to interface although 3rd party programs like Glovepie do allow interfacing via simple scripts.

Wacom tablets would seem to be the most obvious existing product out there in a similar space - simple scripting can interface Wacoms with other apps like music players, so perhaps this new device isn't necessary.

Users in the video are interacting delicately, this looks like a problem - when you are zipping through interactions to achieve tasks (especially when they are repetitive) you want to be able to have good repeatability. Delicate movements here are your enemy.

I guess the TLDR of my comment is that nothing out there really solves all the issues out of the box and this one might not either unless it can build an ecosystem of drag and drop scripts for people to use for their day to day tasks.

edit: interestingly in the list of "requirements" (para 2.) the ease of installing new abilities or scripts or whatever extensions is not listed other than "it has to work with the tools we use" and in the "developers" section it should mention an "app store" otherwise no-one's gonna find that awesome Photoshop extension for it.

xchip• 12 years ago

They totally avoid saying it's an optical mouse:

"changes in position are measured by sensing the scattered laser light which is reflected by an object."

How we built Flow

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