Inside the world of legalised prostitution in Germany

http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/

by ca98am79 • 12 years ago

111 117 12 years ago

s.telegraph.co.uk

Why was the title changed from the OPs original title, which much better characterized the story?

jdmichal• 12 years ago

The title would normally be changed to "Welcome to Paradise", which is the article title. Due to the content, not sure if a mod will reduce it to just that...

forgotpasswd3x2• 12 years ago

Right, which is why I believe the original title was more informative than the updated title. (Original title being: "Welcome to Paradise: inside the world of legalised prostitution", which I believe could have only been made more accurate to the story by adding "in Germany")

IIRC, the reason for changing submission titles is to ensure clarity, and dissuade editorialization, however this submission was changed to a less clear title.

lispm12• 12 years ago

When Germany legalised prostitution in 2002 it triggered an apparently unstoppable growth in the country’s sex industry.

One needs to be careful when making judgements about what the causes were for this growth.

One need to keep in mind that Germany has several strong driving forces for change in our society and around us.

* economic collapse in former east europe

* change in political and economic systems

* open borders

* a lot of poor and desperate people in Germany and in neighbor countries.

* Many european countries further in the east are even worse in most ways: no jobs, no perspective, corruption, very little recovery, ...

* Germany had an economic recovery during the last decade and has been able to control the effects of the world-wide financial crisis on its economy.

* the Euro in Germany and west Europe remained stable. In those troubled country in the east, there is no Euro. Some smaller countries now joined the Eurozone.

We had the reunification of east and west germany. 20 million people had a drastic change in life, with their economy collapsing, authorities gone, the political system changed, jobs gone, ... Some recovery happened in the last decade, but that was very tough for many people and dampened by a lot of money from mostly western parts of Germany. All borders to neighbor countries are now wide open. All the east european countries went through even harder economic times. The financial crisis made it even worse. High unemployment in neighbor countries, especially for young people, while unemployment in Germany was going down. Many people moved to west europe for work. Legal or not. Eastern neighbors all joined the EU, which for example now means that people can move freely and work freely in other countries.

Thus it's not easy to compare it with other countries and it is not possible to think about prostitution independent from the other developments. The number of people in prostition is not just depending on the type of law. Germany has rich West Germany and an added East Germany. At its border it has countries with a lot of poor people, formely all communist. This difference in wealth, job opportunities, etc. creates enough opportunities which can be exploited. Thus we would have seen a lot increase in the sex business, whether we would have legalized it or not. Trying to control that with police and laws would have been very very difficult. There are open borders to all sides. Thinking that young women from eastern Europe would not been here, if laws were tougher is naive. We didn't open the borders to create new ones.

I think it was a smart move to prevent people from going underground. Still it makes sense to look if changes to the laws etc. are necessary after more than a decade.

oakaz9• 12 years ago

As I know the border of Germany is pretty strict. I hear lots of horror stories from not only well educated people, but also people write books, makes music, etc. Even well known singers can't get visa to give their concert in Germany sometimes.

So how come unemployed people from poor neighbor countries can just go Germany and do prostution? It sounds realistic at first hear but thinking about the border officers in Germany, I think you kinda wanna think majority of the prostutes are not Germans.

rtpg• 12 years ago

Well, there is the Schengen Zone, meaning you can source a decent amount of people from some of Eastern Europe.

Not taking a position on GP's thesis that most prostitutes come from poorer countries though.

lispm12• 12 years ago

What you hear is wrong. German border controls are mostly non existent. In a physical way. Drive over the border and you are in Germany. No fence. No controls. Border controls are down to a minimum.

Poland is next to us. No one in Poland needs a visa. There are no real border controls between Poland and us.

The Czech are next to us. No one needs a visa. No real border controls.

France is next to us. No real border controls. Nobody needs a visa. We even have the same currency.

Everybody in the EU (505 million people) can work move and work everywhere (mostly). Nobody needs a visa.

Even from countries where a visa is needed, moving to Germany and staying illegal is relatively easy.

And so on.

jacquesm4• 12 years ago

The only borders of note in Europe are the Polish-Russian border, the Hungarian-Romanian border, the Borders with Bulgaria and Turkey. And of course there is the UK. Most of not all of the rest are just lines on maps these day and pose no significant barrier to entry from parties going one way or the other.

There are 'roving' patrols but these are far too few to make any big difference.

I travel a lot within Europe and the borders above are the only ones where I've seen any border activity at all, let alone was stopped for inspection of my vehicle or passport control in the last decade or more.

Eliezer• 12 years ago

I wonder whether legislating a minimum rate paid for prostitution (e.g. 100 euros per hour), with violations criminal for the underpayer but not for the prostitute, would have resulted in a nicer-looking industry. In other words, whether it would have been practically possible to selectively legalize high-end sex work.

snitko• 12 years ago

So, you are essentially discriminating against ugly sex workers.

jrockway• 12 years ago

Kind of like how Hollywood discriminates against ugly actors?

nazgulnarsil• 12 years ago

This strategy has been tried with guns, i.e. create expensive hoops to jump through such that poor people can afford fewer guns. The additional violence from the blackmarket of gunrunning cheap guns to meet the demand probably offsets any gains.

capisce13• 12 years ago

Or even better, pay them basic income - now women would no longer need to prostitute themselves out of desperation, and only the ones who really saw this as a lucrative career would choose it.

ekianjo6• 12 years ago

Yeah, pay basic income then prices for everything goes up and you are back at sqiare1.

jensen1232• 12 years ago

Or marry out of desperation.

But I wonder, though, if you give welfare to women, will that lead to financially responsible, but "dull" men having a hard time getting laid? While "fun", but financially reckless men getting most of the women?

I suppose you may have meant a basic income scheme for both men and women, but the issue would still be there. Women get pregnant. Men don't. Thus men tend to be financially more successful than women, since they don't have to spend time being pregnant etc.

k-mcgrady3• 12 years ago

That would just create a black market for cheaper sex workers. There will be people who can't afford the minimum price so a market will open to meet their demand.

mseebach• 12 years ago

As long as there is a willing buyer and a willing seller, the transaction will happen, you're just pushing it underground.

The higher the price you're able to command for your services, the more likely you are to have your stuff together, so it's also the most vulnerable sex workers you're pushing underground, too.

tomjen3• 12 years ago

Then those who can't command premium prices will be forced to provide other, more risky, services like no-condom sex.

Anyway what issue do you have with discount hookers?

andrewstuart• 12 years ago

I can't remember a time when prostitution was illegal in Australia. It's hard to understand countries where it's not legal. Funny even that's it's an interesting topic.

forrestthewoods• 12 years ago

You really can't understand why it would be illegal? Even if you are radically opposed it should be pretty damn easy to come up with a long list of reasons as to why someone else might wish it to be illegal.

jackvalentine• 12 years ago

And then you compare those reasons to the reality of the situation, and the arguments for legality and you "(find it) hard to understand countries where it's not legal".

He didn't say "I can't think of a list of reasons for it to be illegal".

ObviousScience2• 12 years ago

Can you name a few that aren't just "sex is bad, so I'll legislate that" or "a woman shouldn't sleep around"?

nnethercote2• 12 years ago

There's a small brothel just around the corner from my house... along with several restaurants and cafes, a pet store, two small grocery stores, a hairdresser, a bakery, a post office, a pharmacy, and a tram stop. It's all very unremarkable.

2muchcoffeeman• 12 years ago

Just one? I was really oblivious for a while. Then several years ago it just clicked in my head what all these unmarked doors with comparatively prominent door numbers were. In the normal course of the week I pass at least 5 small brothels.

smegel• 12 years ago

The reality is prostition helps many young girls in their early 20s escape poverty and set themselves up for life. They can easily earn 100-200k a year, and after 2-3 years buy a house and move onto other occupations or start a family. Ones that stay on beyond that do so out of desperation or laziness, a tiny minority are actually forced to stay in the industry against their will.

People who critize this need to understand the options for women from places of abject poverty are not great either.

allegory3• 12 years ago

This. I had a friend who got herself through a medicine degree in the UK via prostitution. Her parents' income was too high to get a grant and good loan but they couldn't help her because of the chains of debt. She told them she was working in Dominos branch.

She's a surgical reg now, happily married for over 10 years with two children so did ok out of it and wasn't harmed in any way and says she quite enjoyed it.

jacquesm4• 12 years ago

That's a pretty rare story though. It could have very easily ended up with her either dead or pushed to use drugs. Think of her as the lucky exception in a long long string of girls that tried the same thing and that ended up being eaten by 'the life'. I have not one but two nieces that ended up like that and where once they were bright and healthy girls they are now shadows.

galfarragem• 12 years ago

Does her husband know about it? Specially the part "(...)and says she quite enjoyed it." ?

"My wife was a prostitute and she quite enjoyed it! I'm so proud of her. She is a great example to my children."

The fact that she ended up as a doctor is enough to launder this situation? "The ends justify the means" in this situation? WTF!

joshfraser3• 12 years ago

For me, it comes down to a really simple principle: Your body, your rules. Why should some people get to tell other people what they can or can't do with their own bodies? Our responsibility as a society is to figure out how to make it as safe as possible for the people who find them in the unfortunate situation where prostitution looks like the best option.

Edited to be gender neutral.

capisce13• 12 years ago

Yes - your body, your rules, but in the reality of sex trafficking legalizing prostitution doesn't always ensure that. And as for the women who choose it freely but only because they are in the "unfortunate situation" where it seems like the best option, maybe we could introduce basic income so that many of them would not have to consider this option in the first place. I would say that's our responsibility as a society.

k-mcgrady3• 12 years ago

> "in the reality of sex trafficking legalizing prostitution doesn't always ensure that"

But isn't forced prostitution a problem whether we make it legal or illegal? Are there any studies that show whether forced prostitution/trafficking goes up or down with legalisation?

> "And as for the women who choose it freely but only because they are in the "unfortunate situation" where it seems like the best option"

There are plenty of jobs people do because they are the only option. They are physically difficult, dangerous, and pay much less than prostitution. In the documentaries/articles I've read where this point is made it often comes out that the person could do another job but it pays less and they would rather do prostitution as it pays more. Although I do agree with your point about a basic income. I think that would solve a lot of societies problems. It would also be interesting to then see how many people stay in prostitution when they have no financial reason to do so.

sitharus• 12 years ago

It's certainly true that there are women in the sex industry against their will, and still more who would rather not be in that industry. I don't see how making it illegal would change that though.

Personally I agree on a basic income pegged to a annually updated cost-of-living index to help out those in need. Sure, some people will abuse the system, but I think that overall society would be better off.

thret• 12 years ago

Ideally in a society as affluent as ours nobody would be working a job they hate just to pay the bills, that's one of the many problems basic income would solve.

jacquesm4• 12 years ago

Legalizing prostitution actually results in more women stepping forward to document abuse and force because they are no longer afraid the police will treat them as criminals rather than victims.

Basic income (and in general a good social program) cuts down significantly on this as well but most of the women you are talking about are definitely not from countries with basic income (or at least, not at a level that you could realistically contemplate living of it).

You won't see Dutch women or Danish women or German women as prostitutes in Romania or Bulgaria but there is plenty of evidence that Romanian, Bulgarian and Ukraninian women are in prostitution in Germany, the Netherlands and Scandinavian countries.

So the economy most definitely is a factor. In a typical scenario girls get lured to the target country with promises of riches in some kind of career and when they arrive their passports are taken away and they are forced into prostitution.

It's also not rare to see the majority of this be facilitated by people from their home countries.

Very sad stuff.

facepalm• 12 years ago

The article conveniently didn't give any numbers on sex trafficking. The idea with legalized prostitution is (among other things) that it's easier for trafficking victims to seek help. Obviously trafficking is always illegal.

According to the police, sex trafficking is not actually as common as media and ideological motivated organizations want us to believe.

In Germany there is a kind of basic income if you don't have work. The state will pay for rent, health care and food.

nawitus• 12 years ago

Ther's also male prostitutes.

joshfraser3• 12 years ago

Thanks. Edited.

michaelt2• 12 years ago

  Why should some people get to tell other people
  what they can or can't do with their own bodies?

Personally I think prostitution should be legal. But to play devil's advocate, here are some arguments:

The reasons to oppose trafficking, under age prostitution and violence against prostitutes are obvious. And it's obvious why home owners wouldn't want street walkers outside their front doors. Let's set those aside and consider indoor prostitution without slavery or violence.

1. In many places, to collect unemployment benefits you have to be searching for work, and if you're offered work you must accept it. Would you like to see your daughter or mother denied benefits because she turned down a job offer from a brothel?

2. There are a bunch of things we can't consent to. Even if I sign a contract agreeing to be sold into slavery, or agreeing a loan shark can break my legs, or agreeing to work for less than the minimum wage, that part of the contract is invalid. There's precedent for us making it impossible for people to consent to things.

3. If there's someone I wouldn't otherwise have sex with, but I have sex with them to avoid being stabbed, that's obviously rape. If I do the same thing to avoid being starved, is that so different? Oh, admittedly it's more of a grey area, but surely punters could hold themselves to higher standards and avoid things that are even a grey area?

4. Trafficking and violence are giant problems. About 90% of prostitution is one or the other, and legalising prostitution will increase demand leading to more of both. Isn't it better to sacrifice that small fraction of nonviolent prostitution to help clamp down on the much larger amount of violent prostitution? Oh, sure, the 90%/10% ratio might be a bit off, but slavery and violence are really serious, their impact should be given greater weight.

Not saying I agree with all of them, but I can understand why a politician might decide they have other changes to the law they'd like to see first.

pinkyand2• 12 years ago

If we consider using the services of a prostitute as emotional violence - which is a reasonable case considering the mental health risks of the profession - and as violence towards weaker people - we should disallow it on a similar basis to minimum wage laws.

EliRivers• 12 years ago

Would you like to see your daughter or mother denied benefits because she turned down a job offer from a brothel?

Or father, or son. Given that it tends to be mostly male customers, we would presumably see straight men having welfare withdrawn because they refuse to let other men have sex with them for money.

joshfraser3• 12 years ago

Those are all great points and things to consider. For me, it's simply a matter of principle. Fundamentally, I don't believe it's the governments job to stop people from engaging in risky behavior or even hurting themselves. The role of government is to protect us from being hurt by other people.

When you look at US laws that attempt to regulate carnal living, they're all over the place. Cigarettes are legal, but not marijuana. Alcohol is okay, but not shromes. We make people wear seat-belts, but don't limit their McDonalds intake. Our age restrictions are crazy too. You can die for your country, but you're too young to have a beer.

Our laws are a mess because they are written based on money, popular opinion & emotion instead of figuring out how to protect without depriving others of their personal liberty. Just like freedom of speech, I might not agree with what you say/do, but I'll fight for your right to say/do it, as long as it doesn't deprive others of their rights. Much like I support Westboro Baptist Church's right to free speech, I support the legalization of prostitution out of principle, even if it's not something I approve of personally. The strength of your principles are usually measured at the extremes.

spingsprong• 12 years ago

With any new industry there's bound to be bugs in the system. Most other industries have laws regulating them going back decades or even over a century. You're not gonna get it perfect from day 1.

thaumasiotes• 12 years ago

Seems kind of funny to describe The Oldest Profession as a "new industry". Prostitution laws have a history much longer than one century.

unicornporn• 12 years ago

I really think that everybody here should see the documentary "Dreamworld: The Biggest Brothel" that is made inside the largest brothel in Europe.

Here's the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shv1FAxToHM

jensen1232• 12 years ago

Women get pregnant. Men do not. That means that, one way or another, men have to support women financially. Traditional marriage is one way, prostitution another.

However, in our culture there seems to be a bias that marriage is somehow better than prostitution. I find that odd.

Traditional monogamous marriage seems incredibly boring. The biggest problem with prostitution, I think, is STDs, because each prostitute has sex with so very many men.

I wish there was some sort of solution somewhere between traditional marriage and prostitution.

Maybe the reason why our culture has this bias in favor of monogamous marriage, is that the majority of the population is not easily bored?

TeMPOraL• 12 years ago

Maybe the reason why our culture has this bias in favor of monogamous marriage, is that the majority of the population is not easily bored?

Then again, you see the proliferation of divorces and many married people end up having lovers on the side. So I'd say our culture is getting increasingly easy-bored.

I think the main reason for this bias is that marriages in the past were primarily an economic construct, merging the wealth of two families, where the married couple were only the vehicle for binding the contract. This, plus of course the economic benefits of spawning and raising kids. You can see this today in parts of the world where people still do arranged marriages.

Compared to prostitution, this would be like the difference between a cozy corporate job and freelancing in an unstable market. In the first case, you get insurance, health benefits, stable and predictable salary, and you expect to be employed for long time - so you and your family can make long-term plans. In the second case, you don't get any of that, and your main concern is whether you'll earn enough money now to last through an unpredictably-long period of time where there won't be any work for you to do - so you can't plan ahead at all.

janezj• 12 years ago

After watching movie The Unknown Woman by Giuseppe Tormatore, I always associate prostitution as explotation of women, I just wish that there are happy girls enjoing its jobs. But there are also beasts seling their bodies to other beasts.

Inside the world of legalised prostitution in Germany

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