Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/dutch-travellers-react-calmly-loss-flight-mh17

by nezumi • 12 years ago

23 28 12 years ago

theguardian.com

paulhauggis3• 12 years ago

"This is something that never, never happens, and it's unlikely to happen again. "

This wasn't an equipment failure or a natural disaster, so I don't really agree with this line of thinking.

"But we are not going to call for the government to go and catch the perpetrators or go to war."

If this was an intentional act, we do need to do something about it (so it doesn't happen again). Extreme pacifism just leads to bully nations like Russia taking over other nations with absolutely no intervention.

astrodust3• 12 years ago

Intentional or not, there have been, at most, three passenger jets hit by anti-aircraft missiles in the last thirty years.

Keep in mind that even if this happened once a year, flying would still be far, far safer than driving.

dragonwriter4• 12 years ago

Intentional or not, there have been, at most, three passenger jets hit by anti-aircraft missiles in the last thirty years.

At most 3 is incorrect.

Not counting MH17, there are at least four civilian passenger aircraft that were definitively shot down by missiles, and more that were suspected to be (or were definitively shot down, but where I can't find definitive information on the "by missiles" part) in the last 30 years:

LN 602 (March 23, 2007): attributed to the Tamil Tigers using Manpad missiles

Siberia Airlines 1812 (October 4, 2001): admitted shot down by Ukrainian military

Two Transair Georgia flights (September 21-22, 1993): shot down by missiles fired by rebels

Iran Air 655 (July 3, 1988): shot down by the USS Vincennes

Air Malawi 7Q-YMB (November 6, 1987): shot down by Mozambique (can't find anything one way or the other about whether this was "by anti-aircraft missiles" rather than, say, guns, so maybe not technically within scope.)

nashequilibrium2• 12 years ago

I will take a car crash over a plane crash any day!

mylons• 12 years ago

I realize this is a different mode of transportation, but what about German U-Boats (and I'm sure other nations) sinking passenger ships in the start of WW2? Attacks on civilian vessels shouldn't be tolerated.

dragonwriter4• 12 years ago

"This is something that never, never happens, and it's unlikely to happen again. "
This wasn't an equipment failure or a natural disaster, so I don't really agree with this line of thinking.

And its simply, factually incorrect; military forces shooting down civilian airliners is not something that never, never happens, nor is it something that is unlikely to happen again. In fact, it seems to have happened more than once each decade for most of the history of civilian aviation (though there may have been only once incident in the 1990s).

EDIT: The one instance I had seen in the 1990s actually involved two planes of the same airline shot down by missiles by the same rebels on subsequent days, and a third hit while loading by mortar fire while loading on the ground on the next day. So, the 1990s aren't an exception to the "more than once per decade".

diydsp• 12 years ago

2x in the 90s. 3.5x in the 2000s. 22x since the 1940s [0]

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_inci...

zeeed• 12 years ago

I, for one, am glad that hitting back is not the only strategy available to ensure that the chances of this happening again are minimized.

And I'm glad that there are governments in place in this world that share this perspective.

rrss11222• 12 years ago

When you do not have the capability of hitting back, it is not a strategy available to you.

paulhauggis3• 12 years ago

"I, for one, am glad that hitting back is not the only strategy available to ensure that the chances of this happening again are minimized."

Hitting back should not be the only strategy, but it should be available as a last resort. There are still evil people (and governments) still left in this world and sometimes the only way to stop them is by force.

Mikeb85• 12 years ago

Why on earth would it be intentional?

It's pretty much the worst PR possible for Russia. In fact, the only parties who have anything to gain from the plane going down are Kyiv and the US.

It was more than likely an unfortunate accident, as the separatists had shot down several fighter jets and military transports in the same area in the days leading up to MH17... On previous days MH17 had also flown south of Donetsk.

dragonwriter4• 12 years ago

It's pretty much the worst PR possible for Russia.

Sometimes military actions are taken for reasons other than PR.

In fact, the only parties who have anything to gain from the plane going down are Kyiv and the US.

Making civilian air travel perceived as unsafe through the Ukraine (and thus, also, into or out of the Ukraine) increases economic pressure on the Ukrainian government to reach an accommodation with the rebels (the PR downside may overwhelm that advantage, but its not impossible to conceive that the rebels might see it as a net gain.) Its not that uncommon of a reason for rebel/separatist forces to attack civilian transport (air or otherwise), tourist, or other targets.

That's not to say I think that it was intentional -- I think that an accident is, given other incidents in the region, the most obvious explanation. OTOH, its not inconceivable that it could be intentional, and there is a clear potential motive for doing it intentionally.

rrss11222• 12 years ago

Why on earth would it be intentional? Because they launched a missile with the intent of bringing down an airplane.

It might be bad PR, but you would have to be one hell of a PR specialist to successfully spin this as an "unfortunate accident".

ianstallings• 12 years ago

If someone got punched in the face in front of you and then looked at you and said "I'm not going to do anything, the chances of that happening again are slim and I'm not some brutish American" would you be impressed or would you think they're a little crazy?

goldbeck• 12 years ago

Bad example since you're implying that they're continuing to stand in front of the person who punched them. It's not like Dutch flights are going to continue to fly over that part of Ukraine.

Better example, someone at a concert gets hit with a bottle someone else threw. It was the only bottle thrown at that concert or any other concert they've ever been to. They've know that it does happen though very rarely. They look at you and say "I'm not going to do anything major, the chances of that happening again are slim." You suspect they won't return to that same venue however. Would you be impressed or would you think they're a little crazy?

Personally, I'd be impressed.

zerooneinfinity• 12 years ago

Not to belittle the tragedy, but somehow, this feels a little different then people hijacking your planes and flying them into buildings.

ripter• 12 years ago

I love all the americans in this post tying to explain why the Dutch are wrong and they should be worried.

It really proves their point.

ruffles• 12 years ago

What point? That they're not Americans??? They're not wrong. They're simply ignorant..

amalag• 12 years ago

This one is no mystery. There are deleted statements for this from the separatists.

1. Russian government gives BUK to separatists. (what could go wrong?). We have deleted tweets from the separatists bragging about their newly acquired BUK and youtube videos of the BUK being driven around.

2. Separatists think they are shooting down a Ukrainian transport plane. They brag about shooting down a plane at the time the plane went down. They alert journalists who go to the site and are surprised to find bodies and passports. The videos are on youtube.

So if the Dutch or Dutch government are not mad at the Russians, then dunno what it would take.

Avalaxy• 12 years ago

So if the Dutch or Dutch government are not mad at the Russians, then dunno what it would take.

The guy mentioned in the article isn't representative for all of the Netherlands. I heard many Dutch people speak of war.

The Dutch government is generally veryyyy reserved and politically correct. They don't often act fast or decisively and are certainly not going to use a lot of violence.

kissa• 12 years ago

This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g

youtube-dl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5E8kDo2n6g -o 1.mp4 && mediainfo 1.mp4 | grep date

Encoded date: UTC 2014-07-16 19:07:49 Tagged date: UTC 2014-07-16 19:07:49

One day before ... Frame-up?

vixen99• 12 years ago

Why present for debate the casual comments made on the spur of the moment about this tragedy by a few travelers. As they said, they are literally, 'not America'. Fact! Why read something into it?

paulhauggis3• 12 years ago

Because the OP presented it as such and wanted to convey a certain opinion..and I happen to disagree.

Dutch travellers react calmly to loss of flight MH17 – “we are not America”

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