Alcohol as a social technology to check the trustworthiness of others

https://plus.google.com/+KajSotala/posts/hofuxyXz78j

by ivank • 12 years ago

164 102 12 years ago

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cup5• 12 years ago

I think the author has made a number of errors in there post and seems to gloss over the numerous social problems that arise from alcohol consumption. Th reason Alcohol is consumed by a significant portion of the population is because its a drug that society doesn't perceive as a drug. It carries all the negative physiological and social effects other drugs have but it doesn't carry the negative association of being what we consider 'a drug'.

Yes It's a form of social lubrication and it might be pleasant to consume but its efficacy as a form of verifying trustworthiness is tenuous as best. Most high functioning alcoholics would be able to maintain an air of trustworthiness which is why alcohol itself can be such a destructive force.

It's interesting that alcohol is explicitly banned in Islam You could use the approximately 1.1 billion muslim(probably closer to 500-800 million practicising) population as a control abstaining group and look at whether communities that consume alcohol have a higher propensity to trust each other or not.

Edit: At the end of the day I think regardless of any philosophical debates the simplest answer might be that people consume alcohol because being drunk feels good.

ekianjo5• 12 years ago

banned in Islam You could use the approximately 1.1 billion muslim

It's not because it's banned Muslims don't drink it. At least in some places. I have a friend who made numerous trips to Saudi Arabia, where the Muslim Law is supposed to be at its strictest form, yet you just need to drive out of town to find alcohol and access to other forbidden forms of pleasure.

It's just like if you said "so they banned prostitution so it does not exist anymore". People always find ways to access things they want to get.

cup5• 12 years ago

I'm confused. Muslims don't drink because it is banned. Some Muslims drinking doesn't distinguish from the fact that its banned, just like some Muslims who murder people doesn't mean Murder isn't banned.

nemothekid• 12 years ago

Th reason Alcohol is consumed by a significant portion of the population is because its a drug that society doesn't perceive as a drug.

Thats a rather modern view for a practice that may be as old as humanity itself. Your comment doesn't explain why Alcohol was popular when cocaine and other opiates didn't carry negative associations.

chrischen2• 12 years ago

The other drugs are addictive.

cup5• 12 years ago

Cocaine and other opiates have been popular, only recently have they been sidelined.

adrianN• 12 years ago

Alcohol is super simple to obtain. You just need some carbohydrate and time.

chimeracoder• 12 years ago

why Alcohol was popular when cocaine and other opiates didn't carry negative associations

We've rewritten history to help ignore this, but they were quite popular.

Laudanum used to be heavily used in the US, and even Sherlock Holmes was written to be a regular, casual user of cocaine (Dr. Watson viewed it as "his only vice", such as a smoker of tobacco pipes, but had no medical objection to it).

nl2• 12 years ago

Alcohol (in the form of beer) was - for some periods in history - more safe than drinking water. The beer making process (boiling water as well as the alcohol in it) was good at killing bacteria[1]. Bacteria in water was a pretty significant problem for towns without a proper sewage system.

(Note that you'll find some internet sites claiming this is a myth. I don't find their arguments compelling at all: most seem to argue that water was drunk as well - which is no doubt true.)

[1] http://www.westsussextoday.co.uk/news/county-news/latest-new...

collyw3• 12 years ago

Was alcohol cheaper / easier to produce?

IvyMike4• 12 years ago

"I don't trust anyone who doesn't drink" is a politically incorrect but still pretty common sentiment.

Edit: I think I'm getting some "shoot the messenger" downvotes. Whether or not you agree with the statement, I maintain that a lot of people feel this way.

PhasmaFelis• 12 years ago

"I don't trust anyone who doesn't drink" is a politically incorrect but still a pretty common sentiment.

It's not "politically incorrect." It's just kinda dumb.

ajuc• 12 years ago

In communist Poland there was a proverb "Who doesn't drink - is the UB (Polish KGB) agent".

ivank• 12 years ago

The deleted comment with a lot of replies was:

I go to IT/comp-sci conferences and often meet people who don't drink, ever. These people won't have a single glass of wine or beer. I had to ask myself why. If someone told me they used to be an alcoholic and completely quit alcohol, I'd have nothing but respect, but this is not what these people are about.
They'll claim they don't like the effects of alcohol, but the truth is they think drinking is unprofessional. They're afraid of losing control, of looking foolish. To me, this symbolizes conservatism. These are people who are not adventurous. They won't try some unknown dish on the restaurant menu, they won't want to go to a restaurant from a culture they're unfamiliar with. They might think shellfish are disgusting and weird. They'll want to go to some chain restaurant and have a steak with fries.
I don't like these people. Why? Because they're unadventurous people, who have most likely never tried pot even once in their life. They don't like new ideas. They're afraid that one drink will make their life deviate ever so slightly from the usual boring predictability they crave. If you present them with some new idea, they'll give you nothing but doubt, a long list of reasons why your idea is risky and might not work, and thus isn't worth trying. You shouldn't be developing your own programming language, Java does everything you need, it's Turing Complete. Fuck these people.

vbuterin• 12 years ago

I'm not a steak-and-fries person at all (or even a sandwich-and-salad or rice-and-veggie person, which I've internalized as my own safe defaults); I go out and have unfamiliar dishes quite often. If I want to do something amazing and interesting I visit a new country or go on a 20km walk. And I've invented two programming languages as well :) However, I avoid alcohol specifically because it's just not something that I see myself needing in my life, and with the secondary goal of legitimizing nonconformism and pursuit of one's own values in general. I actually see drinking as a more "boring" choice than not drinking.

nfoz• 12 years ago

I never drink but have spent the vast majority of my free time for more than a year writing a programming language. lol :)

dfc3• 12 years ago

I appreciate that you reposted the deleted comment to quell my curiosity and that you were considerate enough to not include the original authors username.

One of the big reasons I was curious about the content of the comment is that I have been thinking about comment karma and the utility of deleting comments lately. Comments like this make a strong case against being able to delete comments. In order for karma to be most effective it seems that it must not only quantify a user's positive contributions but also the user's negative contributions. If a user knows they can make potentially dumb/offensive comments and delete them before taking a karma hit they do not need to filter their thoughts before hitting submit. In my opinion clicking submit is an implicit statement that I stand by my comment and that it was submitted in good faith and is a sincere expression of my opinion.

I am not entirely sure what the purpose of delete is. If someone asks "what is the X of y?" and my response is factually incorrect the comment/answer will be downvoted. People that see my downvoted answer will know that it has been judged "unacceptable" by the HN community; so I do not think there is a reason to worry about spreading false information. If the question is not about a factual matter and my opinion is judged unacceptable by the HN community so be it. I made my comment with the best of intentions and should stand by what I said in the comment.

GhostHardware• 12 years ago

I don't drink. Why? If I drink I have terrible hangovers and can't function the next day. I go to the gym 3 times a week and on weekends I do rock climbing. I'm trying to get a job as a fulltime developer and that requires me to try get as much programming as I can in a single day. If I go out to drink and get myself wasted then I'm wasting my precious time. I got drunk a lot of time already and seriously can't imagine why would I want to do that instead of working on myself in my free time.

But I guess I'm just one of unadventurous people.

sliverstorm3• 12 years ago

Political correctness really has little bearing on how I evaluate a statement. PC doesn't mean it is right, non-PC doesn't mean it is wrong.

IvyMike4• 12 years ago

I mentioned it because I think there a lot of people who might agree with the statement but are self-aware enough to realize they shouldn't say it out loud.

grlhgr4202• 12 years ago

'pc' is invariably shorthand for 'im gonna get self righteous about my right to be an asshole'

dfc3• 12 years ago

I do not agree with the statement and I am curious what your point was when you added "I maintain a lot of people feel this way"? Racism is politically incorrect and also a common sentiment.

IvyMike4• 12 years ago

Would you downvote someone who said "racism is a common sentiment"? If you said that and were subsequently downvoted, would you still maintain that a lot of people feel that way? That's what I mean.

michaelochurch2• 12 years ago

"I don't trust anyone who doesn't drink" is a politically incorrect but still a pretty common sentiment.

It is. It's one of those archaic masculinity expectations that hangs around. "Real men" are supposed to eat red meat, be promiscuous (until 30 or so), and be experienced with liquor. Men who don't enjoy getting hammered are seem as "off", unhealthy, or aloof.

We might hate that it is this way, but mainstream business culture (which has successfully colonized the Valley, making that ecosystem a Disneyfied farce of entrepreneurship having little to do wtih true technology) is still heavily invested in gender roles and "real men" nonsense. Being a nondrinker is a pretty serious professional handicap because, ultimately, people give professional favor (promotions, good projects) based on personal affinities that can be hacked with chemistry (specifically, ethanol) but rarely (certainly not reliably) with hard work.

ElComradio• 12 years ago

This is really interesting to me, the idea that the valley is infested with typical alpha male pursuits. The popular concept is a skinny jean wearing hipster tapping away at a coffee shop. They may get hammered on craft beer but I have never heard that associated with proving masculinity.

thaumasiotes4• 12 years ago

"Real men" are supposed to eat red meat, be promiscuous (until 30 or so), and be experienced with liquor.

You forgot watching sports.

bermanoid• 12 years ago

You're right that people give professional favor based on personal affinity, what I'm not sure you're right about is that it's so wrong to do so. If I don't like you, then it's likely that your direct reports will feel the same way, as will potential clients or partners, which is a risk to the business, so I'm not likely to choose you for a position that puts you in a position to interact with many people. Most high senior positions require a ton of soft skills, so you're probably going to hit a ceiling unless you prove that you have them. Making your manager and peers like and trust you is step 1; the best people go far beyond that very quickly.

Nobody ever promised that career progression would be based on coding chops, especially when each jump up the ladder means less time coding and more time people-hacking.

Alex3917• 12 years ago

The CIA spent millions of dollars researching truth serums and didn't find anything that reliably worked. While I think the author is partly correct, this is probably a function of set and setting in addition to pharmacology.

jmnicolas• 12 years ago

I think If they found something reliable they wouldn't say it.

But considering their extensive use of water-boarding you're probably right.

blibble• 12 years ago

alcohol is part of society simply because having low levels of it in stored water killed pathogens.

as well as preventing your entire medieval village of dying of cholera, this technology also permitted long ocean voyages (it's said that the Pilgrims only landed at Plymouth Rock because they ran out of beer).

now it's entrenched and not going anywhere.

rdtsc3• 12 years ago

In Eastern Europe it was (is, maybe, I haven't been there in a decade now or so), a social lubricant for _all_ the occasions. Birthday parties, any holidays -- state, unofficial, religious. Any business deal or venture. Birth of children, deaths, graduations. Celebrating buying a new car. Visiting someone for the first time. etc...etc... Any one of those are a reason to drink alcohol. Not just a reason to drink it, it is suspicious not to. Yes, it can be very mentally demanding to not drink. There is a constant barrage of offers (Oh just have a little shot. Just taste it. We are drinking for the health of so and so). I have family members back home that struggle with alcoholism. Those that are struggling are able to handle it pretty much just by avoiding most such functions. Cousin so and so is having a party? -- "Yeah, I'll just find some excuse to not go, as they will drink themselves stupid and I can't handle the nagging". Stuff like that. You go to visit someone for the first time, and you refuse a drink, that is borderline an insult to host. You gotta tell them it is under strict doctors' orders to get out of it. "It looks like you have a hangover? No problem. Guess what the cure is? -- Yap. More alcohol in the morning.". Stuff like that.

andyl• 12 years ago

Where I grew up in Michigan: exact same thing. As a kid the omni-presence of social lubricant was great! But the cost grew over time. Many of my friends and family killed themselves with drink and drugs, and some others were wiped out by alcoholism.

cageface2• 12 years ago

It's like this in SE Asia as well. Socializing pretty much always implies drinking. It's a struggle for me because I've never really enjoyed drinking and I've found that as I get older it takes me longer to recover from it. Even a few drinks now and I have trouble sleeping well and I'm mentally fuzzy the next day. This is not conducive to writing code at all.

Hopefully one day Cannabis will mostly supplant alcohol as the social drug of choice.

ekianjo5• 12 years ago

Not just SE Asia, Japan, Korea, pretty much as well.

Hopefully one day Cannabis will mostly supplant alcohol as the social drug of choice.

No thank you. I don't like smoke. I'd prefer tea or coffee.

andrewfong2• 12 years ago

Hopefully one day Cannabis will mostly supplant alcohol as the social drug of choice.

I hope not. I find the smell of Cannabis to be nauseating (almost like a swamp or distant sewage plant), and I wish people would consider that more often before smoking it in social settings. I realize that alcohol can smell as well, but it usually takes quite a lot of it for me to notice at least.

Another consideration: It's a lot easier for non-participating guests to abstain from alcohol than from Cannabis. Apart from peer pressure concerns, I can abstain or moderate my alcohol intake while still participating in social activities, regardless of the alcohol intake of my friends. When Cannabis is smoked in an enclosed hotbox though, I have to choose between intoxication and leaving.

I don't mind the brownies though.

downer732• 12 years ago

Just keep in mind that Cannabis isn't without lasting side effects. Over time, people get burnt, ain't quite as sharp as they used to be, some flip their lid in ways that aren't precisely comedic.

baddox• 12 years ago

What social benefits does cannabis provide that are remotely comparable to those of alcohol?

pekk• 12 years ago

We are drinking for the health of so and so

As if it were a way of praying or wishing!

rdtsc3• 12 years ago

Yes, and that is the standard, default line you say when you drink "Na Zdorovie" == "For health!"

derefr• 12 years ago

I wonder what sort of reaction cultures like this would have to the invention of an alcohol-neutralizing prophylactic. Put yourself in the mind of the people-who-want-other-people-to-get-drunk, and picture someone who can drink like a fish but won't actually get even slightly inebriated--and who purposefully put themselves in this state, instead of "just being that way." How do you feel about that person?

rdtsc3• 12 years ago

drinking and not getting drunk is a feat of strength, something to brag about, oh did you hear so and so can drink 1L of Vodka and still drive home!"

jedrek• 12 years ago

I currently live in Poland and have lots of family here. One of my cousins is an alcoholic in recovery and whenever his family has a party he leaves the house. It's just easier for them to not be there.

rmc• 12 years ago

Ireland is similar. If you refuse a drink people might ask if you're on antibiotics.

blackhole• 12 years ago

Oh great, now my desire to not cause brain damage to myself makes people think I have something to hide.

wonderful.

hueving• 12 years ago

Alcohol use doesn't imply brain damage. Alcohol abuse does.

pdonis4• 12 years ago

No, alcohol use above some level, which nobody knows precisely risks brain damage. Some people prefer not to take the risk, even though it may be small.

logicchains• 12 years ago

I'd argue it can also be used as a social technology for testing people's tolerance of values different from their own. If I say I don't want to drink but someone keeps pushing me to anyway, I don't bother pursuing any kind of meaningful friendship with them, as why would I want to be friends with someone who wouldn't respect my values?

IvyMike4• 12 years ago

It kind of works that way from the other side too.

Any group has a set of "norms" that, if you deviate from them, it's hard to belong to the group. Go to a heavy metal concert wearing a pink shirt, or a linux conference wearing a tie, or (some) churches wearing shorts, or the 1980's without parachute pants, or any one of a million other things. So if there is a group where social drinking is the norm, when you reject that norm, you stand out. This is not always fatal to group membership but it usually makes it harder.

Seen in this light, in some contexts, someone pushing you to drink may actually trying to be say "I'd like you to be a member of this group", and while you see them as not respecting your values, their motivation is trying to help you belong.

(Hackers as a group tend to claim they reject the concept of "norms" although my personal take is that they just have a different set of norms.)

pdonis4• 12 years ago

someone pushing you to drink may actually trying to be say "I'd like you to be a member of this group"

And my response (like that of logicchains, I expect) would still be "No thanks, I don't think it's my kind of group". So the signaling works fine both ways.

russellbeattie• 12 years ago

Drinking makes me suicidally depressed, so I stopped many years ago and have witnessed as a result this exact phenomenon. The new neighbor, coworker, potential partner or aquaintence are all super friendly and welcoming until the first time there's an opportunity to get drunk with them, and you don't (no matter how politely or subtly you demure). After that, the relationship fades. I've seen it time and again. It's annoying, but I've accepted it as reality now. I do get frustrated at how it inhibits my career - it's basically impossible to build a strong network without drinking (or at least is to me. Maybe you're some super gregarious teetotaler, but I'm not) and without a strong network you naturally lose opportunities both personally and professionally. If you can drink without issues, I'd highly recommend it - you'll have a happier, more successful life.

pdonis4• 12 years ago

If you can drink without issues, I'd highly recommend it - you'll have a happier, more successful life.

I think this depends on your definition of "happy" and "success".

collyw3• 12 years ago

Actually as a drinker, I always envied the way smokers got to network in the workplace. I started working at the same time as a smoker. I was generally more extroverted than him, but he ended up knowing way more people in the company than me, because of his cigarette breaks.

michaelochurch2• 12 years ago

Also, shared embarrassment and nostalgia.

When you go drinking with someone and both make fools of yourselves, you now have a mutual trust built on knowing things that most people don't know. That's also the purpose of hazing rituals in fraternities: you've seen each other do disgusting things, so you trust each other.

Then, there's the nostalgia factor. Being drunk is moderately interesting but it seems to have a high rate at which it produces nostalgia. Even though the after-effects are (for me, anyway) sufficiently bad to counteract any pluses of drunkenness, the sort of nostalgia on which business connections seem to be build is enhanced with alcohol.

I don't know why this is, but if I had to guess, I think that Timothy Leary's "8 circuits of consciousness" theory is, at least to this, relevant. Alcohol causes regression into a childish, emotionally volatile state. It's a time-travel mechanism. It allows people to instill in themselves an illusion that a connection goes back farther in time (and is therefore deeper) than it actually does.

patio11• 12 years ago

In Japanese business culture, being in one's cups is a socially acceptable excuse for saying virtually anything, regardless of e.g. relative social status or non-desirability of the message. Accordingly, many of the really important messages internally and externally are passed after hours with a beer in hand. (Incidentally, people will even treat you as being drunk even if you're only sipping coke, because it is mutually socially important that you be seen as being drunk. I mean, after all, you couldn't possibly verbalized that complaint to your boss while being sober, right? So clearly you're drunk.)

harisenbon• 12 years ago

Tangentially, I've seen "Nomu-nication" (Nomu "to drink" and Communication) be a central part of almost all business in Japan -- both internal and external.

One experience I had with my Osakan clients always stood out to me -- I've met multiple businessmen who say they won't make a deal with a vendor they haven't gone drinking with, because the alcohol shows what kind of person they really are.

mercer2• 12 years ago

I think alcohol serves a similar function at least here in Western Europe, albeit less obviously. I've noticed that many people 'act' drunk well before they are. Having a beer in hand is permission to let your guard down a bit.

I mostly approve, but a danger I've found is that people can get stuck in it, even if they don't necessarily become alcoholics.

steamn• 12 years ago

Funny you mentionned Japan. Staying 'cool' while getting drunk with Japan's manager of my previous employer landed me a CTO position in Japan. He was saying it was a proof that I was a reliable person.

tomcam• 12 years ago

That's a whole lot of words to replace "In vino veritas". Also explains why teetotalers like me are sometimes considered suspect.

leephillips• 12 years ago

From the Maltese Falcon:

Kasper Gutman [to Sam Spade]: I distrust a man who says "when." If he's got to be careful not to drink too much, it's because he's not to be trusted when he does.

fred_durst• 12 years ago

I will very much second this one. That said, there is something for shy people. They sometimes think they have something to hide when they actually do not. So it can be a little bit of a bad tell if you don't realize it can sometimes be a lack of self confidence as opposed to a need to hide something.

TTPrograms• 12 years ago

Uh, isn't this an objectively ridiculous statement? If you never said "when", you would overdose and die.

If he's got to be careful not to drink too much, it's because he doesn't care to die.

dschiptsov• 12 years ago

It seems that Slavic cultures are founded and based on an collective alcohol consumption. So many men cannot even go to bed with a woman (especially wife) without getting drunk first. And those almost "religious and mystical" visions Slavs are having (and later proudly telling each other) within onset of delirium..

So, please, don't teach a Slavic about booze.)

fit2rule• 12 years ago

I recently faced a mutiny/mobbing/uprising. One of the key differences between me and 'them' was the amount of drinking going on.

I've come to realize that drunk programmers are just doing their jobs.

mrxd• 12 years ago

Interesting idea, but the neurobabble bits don't really add much. Everyone knows alcohol makes people less inhibited, so do we really need to cite the fMRI data first?

iandanforth• 12 years ago

Interesting! Powerful! But why? It's a novel thesis, but not too novel as to seem unfamiliar. It provides a simple solution to an age old problem. How can I know if I can trust someone? Just get them drunk! Secretly, of course, I'll remain sober enough to judge their sincerity. It also ties together two enjoyable drives. Domination in business and drink. The presentation as revelatory give us the feeling of being in on something important and the allusions to an ancient culture gives it weight. Finally we are drawn by the notion of technology. This is a tool that we should be using to our advantage. Moral considerations are dispelled by the (popular) allusion to our brains mechanistic nature. I applaud the author but this is pure HN linkbait.

Alcohol as a social technology to check the trustworthiness of others

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