An open letter on feminism in tech

http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/an-open-letter-on-feminism-in-tech

by steveklabnik • 12 years ago

239 307 12 years ago

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set.

My experiences related to women in tech:

* Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE to hire more women. Frankly, hiring is hard in general. When women have come in to interview, I can't speak for others - but I know in the back of my head, my biggest concern is, "Make sure you interview with the same standards as anyone else, but make sure you don't have some subconscious bias because she's a she."

* There are probably good female engineers, and not so good ones. One of the few "not so good ones" I know of (doesn't mean she'll never improve, just at the time) had to be super carefully managed out over a long time. There was no unceremonious firing, that's for sure.

* Is there even a "women in tech" problem? Or is it just "women in the workforce, no matter the industry"? The kinds of ridiculous behavior women are describing in these articles sound to me like they could happen in finance, sales, marketing, HR, or anywhere.

* On any of the open source mailing lists I'm on, I've never seen anything remotely close to, "Your pull request sucks you whre, try again". Are these just the mythical basement dwelling trolls of Slashdot lore reaching out privately via email?

Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys. If anything, I feel like if any of us was pulled aside by a female co-worker and she described shenanigans of the sort I read about in these articles, we'd probably jump to their defense in a heart beat, almost maybe too easily.

What have the rest of you experienced?

Edit: I left the above (my OP) in tact. After re-reading it, and some responses, it's become clear to me that it gives off an air of, "I don't believe these reports", and that's not really what I intended.

I suppose my main point was that no, I haven't experienced it, and I think that's exactly what these women are saying - Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not there. So really, despite getting some up votes, I think I missed the boat.

I was curious if others on my (the male) side have in fact seen it, but what does that tell us? Probably not much.

steveklabnik10• 12 years ago

You bring up an interesting point, which is visibility. All of this stuff absolutely happens, but a _lot_ of it goes unreported. This leads to a situation where if you're 'on the inside,' you see and hear about it all the time. If you're not, then you don't.

Generally, when I say "women have informal networks where they share stories of abuse to help other women be cautious around certain actors", there are two reactions: A nodding head, or a 'what the fuck?'

mreiland30• 12 years ago

There is also confirmation bias.

dpritchett• 12 years ago

I've not noticed untoward behavior in the office.

The more overtly unwelcoming behavior seems to crop up outside of the office at networking events and conferences (and IRC and twitter and the bottom of this page).

I will point out that of the various direct and second-level managers I've had since entering the industry in the early 2000s only three (out of a total of fourteen) were minorities.

anildash4• 12 years ago

You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for their opinions. See if you can figure out the bug here.

* "We have this problem with our iOS app."

* "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"

optimusclimb9• 12 years ago

Anil - I'd have expected a bit less snarky of tone from someone so public, but I'll try and answer you anyway:

Yes, I asked other males what they've seen. You can't change reality. Our industry is about as male as the army. I could probably have counted the females in my computer science program back in college on one hand.

I'm just wondering if it really all is as behind closed doors/hidden as is implied, or perhaps I just haven't come across it. People talk. They meet up in bars. I hear all sorts of things from other people in the industry over FrieNDA - though I really haven't heard many stories like these.

worksaf5• 12 years ago

When you understand why you dismiss my viewpoint so easily, you'll understand why I dismiss yours with the same ease.

hkmurakami8• 12 years ago

I came here to say something similar: that the same action or speech can/will be interpreted very differently based on a whole slew of factors, including gender, ethnicity, or just plainly being different people to begin with. What appears "okay" or "benign" or "in jest" can certainly not be the case for a colleague, whichever gender they may be [1].

In fact, I'd argue that it's hard to perceive the inappropriateness of our own actions in the moment. It's much easier to notice the possible auxiliary effects of our past actions when reflecting on them at a later time. Frankly, I can think of any number of things that I've said or done in the recent past that may have made my female friends and colleagues twitch an eyebrow, but didn't elicit an explicit response because they've learned to just deal with it and let it go, having been in a boys club for so long (one started her career in investment banking). And I'd consider myself to be fairly self-aware of these issues, and yet I've admittedly failed many times over.

edit: and frankly, how many of us voluntarily and regularly look back at our past week/month to think about the ways in which we've failed ourselves and our own principles in this area? We may review the ways in which we failed in our job capacity and reflect on how we can improve, but I think the frequency with which we do the same for our social interactions is much lower.

[1] In fact, I think "I was just kidding" is one of the lamest excuses for actions that at times clearly are not thus.

dropit_sphere• 12 years ago

That's not the logic. It's more: "I'm an iOS user and every time an Android device is on the network my phone crashes." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Have any other Android users seen this?"

Ma8ee2• 12 years ago

Many women ask that more men would stand up for them. I think that many men would if they actually saw something occur, but many just don't see anything.

In my own career I have only once seen anything that even looked like harassment or discrimination, and that was almost 20 years ago. It does not mean that I question these women's experiences, but I do think it means that the "bullies" know that what they do isn't accepted by their peers. And hopefully that means that speaking up more when these things occur would make a positive difference.

worksaf5• 12 years ago

As another guy in tech I share your experiences. I have never witnessed anything like what was described in that article and I have been working in tech for around 10 years now in a very diverse workplace.

I also know of at least 1 woman who if she was a man would have been fired long ago yet she stays on because managers are basically afraid to fire her.

I'm not saying these problems don't exist, I just find it hard to believe they are as widespread as is claimed. I know many women in tech and not one of them had a problem finding a job which is a good thing. This is my personal experience so make of it what you will.

anildash4• 12 years ago

You are responding to a bug report on one platform by saying that you cannot reproduce it on another.

epeus2• 12 years ago

You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them.

So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commonly to try it on with every woman, but in a way that leaves it as he said/she said.

This is why "not all men do this" is such a weak-minded response. Don't let it slide. Your second guessing of women in your first point, and your "too easily" in the last indicate the problem too. Women who report harassment often get laid off or managed out afterwards, even when they have got the harasser fired. It is a very high risk thing for them to do, and your "not all men" attitude is a key way that harassers are sheltered.

nimbupani2• 12 years ago

I am one of the contributors to the parent article.

We mention a whole slew of 'what happens when you report harassment' incidents:

- http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes...

- http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com...

- http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/

- https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e

- http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698

- http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm...

- http://kateharding.net/2007/04/14/on-being-a-no-name-blogger...

- http://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/blogger-writes-about-b...

- http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm...

- https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e

- http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/

- http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes...

I also want to mention that we were super scared of publishing our individual experiences for this exact fear and questioning of our lived experience.

hkmurakami8• 12 years ago

I feel strongly that we shouldn't allow ourselves to forget about the "death by a thousand cuts" aspect either. Even the "decent, upstanding guys" (a cohort that we are presumably a part of) are most likely responsible for a papercut or two (I certainly am). And these papercuts are just as profound a barrier in impeding progress in this area than the readily noticeable offenses, in my opinion.

rjknight4• 12 years ago

"not all men" attitude is a key way that harassers are sheltered.

I'm not sure that this makes sense. Saying that someone's behaviour is unusual - not typical of most men - does not sound like sheltering them. Most men don't harass women, ergo the men that do are a minority whose views and behaviour are out of step with their peers. I think we need to say this more.

swombat4• 12 years ago

I have seen it once, in one of my employees. I fired him.

I still don't like the ultra-feminist movement though. Hate doesn't achieve much good.

ronaldx2• 12 years ago

I feel uncomfortable that you have implicitly associated the parent article and its goals with extremism and hatred, which I don't observe.

_bfhp14• 12 years ago

There is no "ultra-feminist movement"; feminism is an umbrella term for a multitude of movements across time and geography. Each movement is understood within a context, and some take more time to understand than others. I would suggest the book Gender Inequality by Judith Lorber as a starting point.

srpablo• 12 years ago

I also hate things that are made up.

http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341

Most people who feel animosity to feminists are attacking a caricature of them that can't be said to meaningfully exist. It also usually involves a misclassification of anger at a bad situation with 'hate.'

The fact that you can read something like this article and connect it to anything hateful, let alone angry (it's not either) shows why many feminists get frustrated even talking about inequality: people aren't listening to what's being said, their demonstrating faulty thinking and prejudices, often while denying they exist.

forgottenpass2• 12 years ago

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned?

I've been out of college for about 6 years now. The worst I even encountered professionally was a joke shared in a group of 3 or 4 dudes about women drivers. I remember it well because it was so incongruous with everything else I've seen. There was also a booth babe at a conference I went to, and everyone I spoke with (including staff) considered it at the very least tacky. There were blog posts about harassment at that conference, but I never witnessed any nor did anyone in my group of friends, acquaintances and colleagues attending ever speak of being uncomfortable there.

I hear about more harassment towards the women I'm friends with after any given night of drinking at bars than the total I've ever heard from them about work.

optimusclimb9• 12 years ago

I hear about more harassment towards the women I'm friends with after any given night of drinking at bars than the total I've ever heard from them about work.

Do you mean from men at bars in general? Or are you talking about when they're out with coworkers/other people in the industry?

agentultra• 12 years ago

Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned?

Yes.

White, privileged male.

I was attending Pycon 2013 in Santa, Clara. I had just spent the lunch hour with a good friend and his acquaintance, X. As we were leaving X decided it was an appropriate time to quietly share his views about women in tech with me. I was mortified at that moment and promptly exited the conversation without addressing X's comments to me.

I've felt terrible about that exchange ever since.

angersock2• 12 years ago

"promptly exited the conversation without addressing X's comments to me."

I understand that it can be difficult, but we all need to speak up in circumstances like these.

anuleczka6• 12 years ago

Thank you for your honesty. As a woman, I tend to respond to these situations in the exact same way - out of shock and mortification. But that's exactly why this behavior can continue. So together, let's speak up for ourselves, for others, and for what is right.

gurkendoktor• 12 years ago

My experience has been the same as yours, but:

Make sure you interview with the same standards as anyone else

Reading these open letters, isn't that The Wrong Thing? "Promote the fuck out of diversity" (from the OP) sounds as if we should strongly prefer female programmers, with a bigger focus on a healthy team than on skills alone. (Also related: http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug)

I'm genuinely curious because my experience is the same as yours (= nothing bad happened), but it dawns on me that I am now considered a part of the problem. :|

hunterloftis3• 12 years ago

we should strongly prefer female programmers

this sort of mentality will encourage (and validate) concerns that female programmers are hired (and retained) because of gender rather than ability.

jacquesgt• 12 years ago

Why is this question only directed at men? Are women's views on this matter invalid because they're held by women?

optimusclimb9• 12 years ago

I think you're thinking about it wrong. I believe women that this happens. I wasn't asking for "views" so much as, "what have you seen?"

jdp235• 12 years ago

Yes, as a male, I see this behavior regularly.

If you're not seeing it, it's statistically highly unlikely that you're not coming into contact with it. Reading and understanding feminist perspectives can help you become more observant. Hacker News provides plenty of opportunities for practice identifying hostile-to-women comments.

If you're not hearing about it through word of mouth, then it could be that you don't talk to a lot of women in tech, or don't talk to them about these issues, or you aren't fully hearing what they're saying. It could also be that they don't feel comfortable in discussing them with you. Look at your language and behavior and think about what could be sending unintentional messages that cause people to steer clear from this discussion. How many can you spot in this post, and in your reply to Anil?

optimusclimb9• 12 years ago

If, in posting something out of concern, and in trying to understand something better, I still am going to get chastised for "doing it wrong", then it really is an uphill battle.

bucketsbuckets3• 12 years ago

If you're not seeing it, it's statistically highly unlikely that you're not coming into contact with it.

May I ask on what evidence you base this assertion? Note that this is a much stronger claim than just "harassment happens"; you're claiming that, more likely than not, it is also happening in my organization.

Consultant32452• 12 years ago

I've worked with women my whole life in tech. I sit right next to one currently and she's an awesome talent and from what I can tell is an equal member of the team. I do see some passive things like their opinions not being heard as much and I think that has almost as much to do with how they speak (not with confidence) as it does their gender. I try to make a point to listen more carefully and help promote the ideas of my female coworkers when they are good. I've never seen nor heard of any of the more overt things mentioned in the blog post like being groped or anything of the sort. Probably the worst I've heard is the guys lamenting that there are no women on the team and commenting that they can't find women interviewees that have the skills required for the type of project we were doing.

Fomite9• 12 years ago

Yes, I've seen this stuff, repeatedly, and passed off without comment.

More than that, I have the good sense to take my female colleagues at their word.

lotsofmangos4• 12 years ago

I have left a company because they flat-out refused to consider hiring women for coding jobs, with the CEO saying that women are too fragile for critical roles.

This kind of idiocy is relatively common in UK executives, as a fairly large chunk of them went to exclusive private boys schools and so never had to really deal with women as equal peers until adulthood.

hkmurakami8• 12 years ago

Wouldn't they get that exposure during university though? I certainly had long-held views challenged and changed during my time in college, where I was exposed to a much larger spectrum of the population compared to my predominantly Caucasian, upper-middle class upbringing.*

* I briefly attended a UK postgraduate institution.

sequoia2• 12 years ago

a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned?

Why do you need a "male reader" to confirm this to you? Your question reads thus: 'I can't believe this if I only hear it from a woman-- is there a man in the audience who can confirm this?'

To turn it around a bit, why do you find these stories unbelievable & why do you need a man to confirm their veracity?

optimusclimb9• 12 years ago

I never said I find them unbelievable. Quite the opposite.

CGamesPlay• 12 years ago

I don't find the story unbelievable. I like to believe that whom I choose to keep as my friends and colleagues is a reflection of myself, and I aspire not to be sexist or bigoted towards any minorities. Those of my friends I've spoken to about this who are women engineers haven't experienced anything to the degree I hear about in the articles (but they still acknowledge biases against them or annoyances in the conduct of their peers).

But this is an endemic problem. Are the male colleagues I have part of the problem and I am simply failing to realize it? Have I done a good job of choosing colleagues who don't behave that way? How can I know?

baddox3• 12 years ago

Your question reads thus: 'I can't believe this if I only hear it from a woman-- is there a man in the audience who can confirm this?'

I think it's more like "I would find it odd, though not impossible, for only women to have observed these things."

sliverstorm• 12 years ago

Perhaps the question is more along the lines of "Men are being called upon to act against this discrimination, but I as a man have never seen it. Other men, what about you?"

In which case the gender of the audience is important to the question. For example, while women might see it all the time, if there are no men present other than the offender, the "ordinary" men would never see it and never have the opportunity to act.

Personally I can say it can be frustrating when you are damned (as a group) for not acting, when you as an individual have never to your knowledge witnessed the event.

mbillie1• 12 years ago

Yes, as a white male I see it constantly. I worked for what I would consider one of the best for women in tech (ThoughtWorks) and even there you see this stuff. So much more in other places.

Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys. If anything, I feel like if any of us was pulled aside by a female co-worker and she described shenanigans of the sort I read about in these articles, we'd probably jump to their defense in a heart beat, almost maybe too easily.

So here's the thing: most guys everywhere are decent, upstanding guys. Don't think that MVC is writing this to slander decent, upstanding guys. But being decent and upstanding does not make you aware of all forms of harassment and discrimination, and you can still do harm without meaning to or being aware that you're doing it. It's important to talk about the experiences of women in tech, to talk with women in tech and understand what their concerns are, not because they want to beat you over the head for being a bad person, but because you just don't see it. I can never have the experiences of a woman in tech - I'm not one. That's why it's so important to listen to what they are saying.

hkmurakami8• 12 years ago

And reading articles like this (as much as our initial inclination may be to avoid looking at them) makes us reflect on the ways that we as decent, upstanding guys have missed the mark in the past.

I've seen/heard of harassment'ish inappropriate comments made by a colleague and let it go unreported. Didn't even talk to the guy in person in private to subtly suggest that his behavior may be making our female colleagues uncomfortable. I made various subconscious excuses to myself for being a bystander, and by doing so I was contributing to the prolongation of the problem.

Even if you place the 'me' of today in the shoes of myself back then, I'm not confident that I'd be able to stand up for my female colleagues for all the reasons that both men and women typically give for just letting things slide. I'm honestly ashamed of this fact, and hope I can slowly be more courageous in this regard.

IsaacSchlueter• 12 years ago

Male here. Yes. Many many times. If anything, this is a very conservative report.

I'm guessing that you've seen it, too. Probably you didn't notice it, because it wasn't directed at you, and everyone in the room was also pretending it didn't happen.

gamacodre• 12 years ago

I've seen some milder forms of it. As a team lead about 20 years ago, one of my guys started going on about the virtues of the "cheesecake" in the game we were working on. In the middle of a meeting between him, myself and our other coder who happened to be female. She got really quiet, and I said something to him along the lines of, "Oh, come on, man," and moved the meeting along. Didn't really address it beyond that; my own social skills weren't up to taking it further, and I didn't notice any more like that for the remainder of the project.

Mostly, though, the shops I've worked in haven't had these issues, at least not anywhere that I could see them. Women seem to have been well integrated into our teams when there were any.

I think that a lot of the behavior mentioned in the letter is stuff that no-one wants to work with. Guys who will act weird with a co-worker because they're (female/minority/disabled/whatever) are good people to avoid for professional reasons; it implies numerous faults in character and understanding, and no good excuse for them.

mreiland30• 12 years ago

I guess I'm missing the significance of the term cheesecake?

cafard• 12 years ago

Yes, and not only in tech. The drunken business owner who chased one of his employees around the table wasn't at a tech business.

cheez3• 12 years ago

FTA:

The last few weeks have been very difficult for women in tech:
Gurbaksh Chahal - then-CEO of a startup, was allegedly video taped violently attacking a former partner 117 times in 30 mins (He was finally fired some time after this was made public)

My reaction when I first read this: "wow, the guy beat up his company partner AND a woman, at that. What an asshole." Then I clicked through (note: he's still an asshole).

If you actually click through and read this, it is completely unrelated to tech. The partner that was attacked was a girlfriend. Not a company partner at all.

I'm not condoning the behaviour, obviously, but I feel like this article is setting the stage to create a "men vs women" thing in tech. If we spell it out, a full two out of five points the authors use to make their case can be summarized as:

A guy who has a temper problem and runs a tech company attacked a girlfriend who had nothing to do with the tech company. Everyone wanted to see proof.

Why is this particular instance difficult for women in tech? Why not everywhere? Why is this not used as an example of perhaps the stresses that people are under that cause them to behave this way? Is there a link to aggression and CEOs? This would be a better set of questions to take away from that incident than "if you work in tech and you are a woman, will you get beat up on a daily basis?"

The last thing we want is for people reading this to be put on the defensive

The last thing I want is for people who want to bend the truth this much to be on the front page of HN.

The other stuff you wrote about? All great stuff. No one wants rapey emails. Even if you are fine as hell, you should be free from getting groped or otherwise harassed.

Don't adopt tangentially related stories to create a narrative that is more dire than real life. It just makes me shut off to anything else you want to say and then I don't want to work with you at all.

steveklabnik10• 12 years ago

The partner that was attacked was a girlfriend. Not a company partner at all.

Many people have switched to saying 'partner' for all relationships to help demonstrate their support for gay marriage.

Everyone wanted to see proof.

He already pled guilty.

Why is this particular instance difficult for women in tech?

Well, it's an example of someone's incredibly personal abuse story possibly being shown to millions of people against their will.

Also, he was the CEO of a tech startup, and the tech startup media did all the reporting on it, and all his investors literally said 'congratulations, I'm glad this is behind you' after he pled guilty.

Why not everywhere?

Something can be a problem in a certain industry, and also in general. Both statements can be true.

cheez3• 12 years ago

Also, he was the CEO of a tech startup, and the tech startup media did all the reporting on it, and all his investors literally said 'congratulations, I'm glad this is behind you' after he pled guilty.

Thank you for spelling it out for me. This bit with the inevstors apparently condoning the behaviour is what I was missing.

So what do you think should happen? The man pleaded guilty and paid his due, presumably.

Should his career be forever destroyed?

I'm curious.

mreiland30• 12 years ago

Also, he was the CEO of a tech startup, and the tech startup media did all the reporting on it, and all his investors literally said 'congratulations, I'm glad this is behind you' after he pled guilty.

Still has little to do with gender bias. The investors are there for the money. I've seen companies keep known alcoholics around because they provide enough value for said company to deal with it.

The issue isn't that it happened, it's attributing it to simple gender bias. It's dishonest.

zo15• 12 years ago

"He already pled guilty."

Looks like someone didn't bother to click through to the meaty articles about that point. The police dropped all charges against him, and he plead to a misdemeanor with a fine.

Imagine this... You find out your partner of who knows how long, has been having unprotected sex for money for (I think the article said years). I say she deserves a beating if that was true. In my book, she's throwing dice around with his life/health. And if they have kids, she's messing with their future and well-being as well. Horrible, and just goes to show that sexism is alive and well, but not as they portray it. Because we're up in arms about a guy smacking around someone who happens to be female, because she put his life in danger.

People on the internet love being outraged. And this article is just fanning the shit around even more to further their cause. I feel for them, and there might even be true discrimination out there against women, but attention seeks like the ones in this article are doing them a disservice. If not out right mocking them by using their problems for personal PR.

joaren4• 12 years ago

Exactly. What's going on is that the feminists of MVC are looking at the extremes: extreme abuse, or extreme success. What they don't care about is that this is an industry where 40 hour work weeks are a luxury, and the average neckbeard sysadmin is despised by HR even as he fixes their boxes for the n'th time.

As a general rule of thumb: if women have it bad, men have it worse. But since the bottom half of men are invisible, everyone focuses on the 'poor' victimized women instead.

Roy Baumeister's "Is There Anything Good About Men?" explains this well, but they'd never read it because it's "MRA".

kmf• 12 years ago

As a general rule of thumb: if women have it bad, men have it worse.

Can you honestly write that and actually believe it? Even better, can you give some examples to justify it? That's a pretty big claim, and one that, at face value, seems pretty unlikely.

jugglingcode2• 12 years ago

From the stories that have come out it sounds that avoiding this behaviour is practically impossible to avoid if you are woman. That's a terrible working env.

This also appears to be an American problem. I find this difficult to imagine happening as pervasively ( not saying it doesn't happen at all) in London or Berlin or any of the other European tech hubs. The problem may be more evident in America because it has the largest and most successful tech community presenting more opportunities for alienating behaviour around women to be amplified. The reasons are likely to be more multi-faceted and complex.

Fomite9• 12 years ago

Sexism is notoriously pervasive in Europe. And America. And really, the entire fucking globe.

cjbprime• 12 years ago

I agree that women in the US generally seem to talk more about bad experiences they have in tech than women in Europe. But there are several possible explanations for this observation, and you've picked the laziest one.

For example, consider the possibility that people become more willing to report bad experiences if the people they tell will be willing to acknowledge that the problem is not uncommon, and unlikely to react with disbelief.

That would explain our observation without suggesting that Europe has fewer incidents; in fact it would suggest that it has more, but doesn't have a culture of admitting and dealing with them.

xamebax4• 12 years ago

I had some negative experiences during a recent conference in Berlin and was threatened and insulted more than once in Warsaw, not to mention constant online bullying for being vocal about women in tech. I know I'm just one example, but you can find lots and lots of others if you google right. Sorry, Europe is similar to the States in this regard.

jugglingcode2• 12 years ago

It looks like I may have unwittingly offended a few people with an idea that wasn't expressed as eloquently as I would have liked. Some may have read the post and thought I was voicing a common male position of it not being a problem or something that should be swept under the rug and dismissed.

There are indeed many explanations for the appearance of what I described and some have rightly mentioned that it may just be under-reported in Europe due to culture differences. I don't pretend to know what those may be but can only offer my experience and anecdotal evidence, just like most have done here.

Sexism does exist in Europe and I have not said in my post that it doesn't I think we are all talking specifically about tech culture here and let's not conflate this to sexism in Europe across all industries. I've had friends experience inappropriate male attention at work but it's frequently in Law or Finance, and more recently in Education. Friends (more than a handful) in London and in Brussels have experienced this directly. That's a lot considering that 1 in 10 women experience some form of harassment at work. I've rarely ever heard it happen in tech over here. Not to say that it doesn't happen, from my experience I've heard a lot less.

I'd understand better some of the reactions to my post if it was clearly and strongly entrenched in a dismissive or an unsympathetic position but the post is littered with words like 'may' and 'appears' and suggests the problem requires a deeper exposition than what can be stated in an HN comment.

danshapiro• 12 years ago

I appreciate the authors taking the time to write this (unfortunately this HN comment page emphasizes the uphill climb ahead). But there's one thing in particular I, selfishly, appreciated them addressing:

"Does this mean we’re going to get angry at you if you try to help and get it wrong?"

This fear was something that kept me from speaking out for many years. I'm a guy in tech and I want to see change occur but I'm ignorant about these things. I don't truly understand the challenges that women face in our industry. And because I'm relatively ignorant, I worry that I might say something that was intended as supportive but winds up contributing to the problem: white-knighting, disempowering, calling attention to something that the person affected wanted to leave alone.

Personally, I've come to terms that I'm going to try my best and risk screwing up occasionally. It's scary but I think it's better than the alternative of sitting by and doing nothing. But it makes me feel a lot better to hear that I'm not alone in worrying about this.

dstaley• 12 years ago

This wonderful article by Julie Pagano might be of interest to you! http://juliepagano.com/blog/2014/05/03/ally-smells-fear-of-s...

taybin5• 12 years ago

Compare that with http://jacobian.org/writing/what-can-men-do/ , which is linked to in the OP in which he criticizes Jeff Atwood for doing it wrong. So wrong that he won't even link to him, even though he acknowledges that his intentions are good.

Edited to fix pronoun.

mendicant• 12 years ago

Psssst. The OP of this article who criticizes Jeff is Jacob Kaplan-Moss. ie: A male.

freerobby2• 12 years ago

I assumed that was a dig at Jeff Atwood, who initially refused to link to Shanley's piece on the grounds that it was hateful.

jamesaguilar2• 12 years ago

I think this is fine. If you make a bad mistake, even with good intentions, it is reasonable for others to be angry at you. "I was trying" is not a universal defense.

"I was trying, I see what I did wrong, thank you for the correction and I'll try to do better next time," however, goes a long way. If Jeff acknowledges his mistakes -- supposing he is convinced they are mistakes -- and makes an honest attempt to be better, anger will likely turn into forgiveness.

nailer4• 12 years ago

appropriating and refusing to acknowledge earlier works from women—specifically, appropriating Shanley’s identically-titled, incredibly-similar “What Can Men Do?,”

You mean two different human beings thought about blogging about a popular tech issue? With an obvious title? Atwood must feel ashamed. What an appropriator.

dominotw2• 12 years ago

Just a side note this site is run by a person who thinks

"This is NOT unrelated to the fact that YCombinator built Hacker News, a platform that has consistently terrorized women in tech for years."

https://twitter.com/shanley/status/460566412226883584

jmduke• 12 years ago

I've downvoted you, because I don't feel that your comment is particularly germane to the submission itself.

(And I've seen enough minority/feminism-related discussions on HN to overwhelmingly agree that the community here is often incredibly hostile to women.)

taybin5• 12 years ago

Terrorized though? I'm not sure that being critical of some blog posts rises to that level.

worksaf5• 12 years ago

Ironically I bet they would not consider that statement hateful or hyperbolic. I bet the next tweet was something like "Why don't people want to identify as Feminist?"

lotsofmangos4• 12 years ago

Even folk on 4chan have commented that hacker-news is a bit unreasonable to women.

Tycho• 12 years ago

I remember reading through that account's tweets when pg was accused of saying teenage girls can't code or something. Thought the author was pretty despicable. No surprise there was no apology or retraction when the full context / truth of that interview was revealed a few days later.

ddoolin• 12 years ago

I followed it for a few weeks/months previously. The amount of hate she attempts to stir up is insane. That's exactly why I'm not interested in participating in this discourse 99% of the time.

vezzy-fnord2• 12 years ago

One thing that no one seems to address in these discussions (of which at least one appears every week) is how will feminism actually solve these problems?

Actually, I'd like to address this paragraph:

Feminism is not a dirty word. Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions.

The author(s) repeat a very common cliche, and insist on this as the one true definition of feminism. Yet in reality, feminism is splintered, divided into many schools, disagrees on fundamental issues (sex-positivity versus sex-negativity and transgender inclusion versus transgender exclusion, most notably) and is not a coherent movement. The same applies for virtually all ideologies.

Some will repeat that quote, some will say "gender equality", others will go for "women's liberation", "abolition of X concept considered problematic", "separatism" or a variety of other reasons.

Which school do we adopt? Why? How will it change things? Is feminism really that seamless of an ideology that it is the one true way to fix things?

kevingadd• 12 years ago

Do you have a better solution to propose, then?

stefantalpalaru2• 12 years ago

Replace ideology with logic.

pgeorgi• 12 years ago

I'd propose to be more careful when throwing "feminism" in the ring - it really is an umbrella term, and it makes it so much harder to discuss things because so much time is wasted looking for where the goal posts reside today.

One potential downside is that deconstructing the umbrella also removes that feeling of speaking for a huge majority. I'd consider that a feature because it's a misleading notion.

_bfhp14• 12 years ago

"sex-positivity versus sex-negativity and transgender inclusion versus transgender exclusion"

Presenting a biased view to an audience new to a subject is dishonest. You're using selected terms to groom the readers to the side with the "schools of thought" you agree with. I could use the terms "neoliberalism verses class analysis and genderism verses gender criticism" and we'd still be referring to the same things. Of course, I would never use those terms at HN in the way you used yours, because I value real discourse.

Your central point is of course correct: "feminism" is an umbrella term (heck that's the first sentence on the Wikipedia page). Using ignorance of that fact as an opportunity to propagandize is shameful.

FD3SA3• 12 years ago

He's giving "feminism" far more respect than it's due. Empirically, it is a baseless ideology on par with Astrology, but far more sinister because of its political and economic consequences.

In the real world, the study of human behavior resides within the realm of evolutionary biology, with a focus on evolutionary psychology. The empirical principles that govern human behavior are fascinating and complex, but are well understood within the coherent framework of evolutionary biology.

"Feminism", and all of its post-modern counterparts are pseudo-intellectual nonsense promulgated by fanatics.

But don't take my word for it, here's just one expert's opinion [1].

1. http://edge.org/memberbio/helena_cronin

aaronem2• 12 years ago

[Quick prefatory update: HN's throttling algorithm has decided, on the basis of five comments counting this one over the space of the last hour, that I'm "submitting too fast". It'll therefore be a fair while before I am able to respond to the replies I confidently expect this post to provoke.]

You know, at base, I think this is a class issue.

No, I don't mean in the Marxist sense, so all you libertarians who're even now clearing for action and double-shotting your broadsides, hold off a minute and finish reading first.

I mean it's a class issue in the sense that acting like the assholes these women have found themselves forced to put up with, throughout their careers in our industry, is stigmatic of a complete lack of class.

Our industry, after all, revolves around a profession. We arrogate unto ourselves the title of "engineer", despite the complete lack of licensure or regulation commensurate with every other industry whose professionals bear that title. It is therefore incumbent upon us to behave in accordance with our pretensions -- and especially so, I'd argue, given the relative lack of rigor which characterizes our industry as a whole.

Now, maybe I'm just an effete, precious little snowflake. But I have absolutely no desire to associate with people who behave in the fashions described in the open letter published by Manian et al., and in a thousand other places, by a thousand other women, who are themselves remarkable among their fellows in our industry only in that they're courageous enough to tell their stories -- despite the excoriation they know full well will come their way in response -- in hopes of provoking change.

Such people lack class. They lack taste and refinement. If nothing else, they lack the basic good sense to recognize unprofessional behavior in themselves, and to acknowledge the solid reasons why the constraints of professionalism exist at all.

Speaking of which: I've recently participated in a couple of HN discussions around the topic of office politics. From them I have gleaned the impression that a lot of engineers consider office politicking to be something which just gets in the way of getting the job done, and is undesirable therefore.

To engineers who share that opinion, I point out that what we're talking about here also gets in the way. Unless you're willing to declare flat out that women have nothing to offer the industry, or unless you prefer to imagine that the women who've described maltreatment at the hands of their supposedly professional male peers are just lying out of some conspiratorial urge or other, I don't see how you can evaluate this situation any other way.

Anyone who reviews my comment history on HN will recognize quickly enough that I have no particular fondness for feminism as a movement, or for feminist theory, much of which strikes me as ill-argued and overly reliant on an axiomatic infrastructure which is not so sturdy as its proponents seem to believe. Worse, by the lights of feminism per se, someone like Adria Richards, who reacted to a vaguely tasteless joke in so spectacularly ill-considered fashion as to end up getting three people fired, has no cause for reproach.

On the other hand, I see no reason why it's necessary to have any fondness at all for either of those things, when the problem, at its base, is that there are too many assholes in our industry with no sense of how to behave. It's not a question of "how to treat a woman", as though that were some sort of magical separate category. None of the shit we're talking about here is anything you'd be inclined to put up with for one minute, if anyone directed it at you. That it's directed almost universally at women, instead, makes no difference. These behaviors, in themselves, are utterly unacceptable in any even remotely professional context. That they're so widespread in our industry -- indeed, that they're suffered to exist at all in our industry, to say nothing of the degree to which they're actually tolerated -- gives every one of us a bad name.

I don't like that. I refuse to tolerate the company of the people who are responsible for it. I'm not looking to start a movement; I'd be crap at it and there are already far too many of those to begin with. I'm just looking to see those of us in the industry who do have class, who do have taste, behave accordingly with regard to those who don't.

No doubt some of them will realize why they've been excluded, and will learn better. Great! That's what ostracism is for. If they can show they know how to behave themselves like grown adults, they're welcome to join those of us who never needed remedial education on the subject to begin with.

And, equally without doubt, some of them will never figure it out, and, like MRAs, MGTOWs, and others who prefer abandoning society over learning to interact with it, will grow bitter in their increasingly self-inflicted solitude. Those, we're better off without, and to hell with them.

stackcollision2• 12 years ago

s/class/common human decency/g

I think a lot of what you're talking about has more to do with an apparent inability of some people to act with any sort of common sense around other human beings rather than 'class'. This happens in any workplace (my mother was a secretary, and had to leave one of her companies because her boss was consistently making advances), but in technology especially so.

Perhaps this is a symptom of the social environment a lot of programmers seem to have in common. A lot of us spend our teenage years alone or with a small group of very close friends. Because of that, certain people might not develop a full understanding of social customs, or worse: deride them as 'silly'. This is a fundamental mark of immaturity, and most people and most programmers grow out of it. Some people don't, and I think it's especially common among programmers because they (and yes, this is stereotype) tend to be very solitary.

People like us tend to spend a lot of time online, where you can make sure you only talk to people who are very similar to you (case in point: HN). Not being forced to talk to people with different opinions results in stunted social growth. A huge part of life is learning to interact with people who are different than you.

When you throw someone who doesn't have a lot of experience with social norms and is used to having everything their way into an office work environment, they generally don't mesh well.

aaronem2• 12 years ago

I think a lot of what you're talking about has more to do with an apparent inability of some people to act with any sort of common sense around other human beings rather than 'class'.

Some of it, maybe. A lowered standard of functional adulthood for such people doesn't seem like it would do them any favors; instead, it'd deny them the very feedback they need to learn better.

Immaturity doesn't strike me as the major problem here, though, unless you want to argue that the average degree of social maturity in our industry resembles that more commonly expected on a grade-school playground.

Even if that were true, then the maltreatment under discussion would be a lot more evident than it is to those of us who aren't its targets, because those who engage in it would lack the necessary cunning to choose their target and their context so that a complaint can be dismissed as he-said-she-said. Such cunning requires at least some capacity, whether cognitive or intuitive, for social analysis -- enough so, in fact, to exceed the minimum threshold for "I didn't understand what I was doing was wrong".

This being true, your choices are either to assume the existence of a feminist conspiracy aimed at the overthrow of the existing industry, or to assume that those men who are most responsible for the problem under discussion know very well that most of us would utterly refuse to put up with their shit if we saw it going on, and that's why they make sure that we don't.

graffic• 12 years ago

I totally agree with you it is a class issue. May I put it in other words? an asshole issue. How to behave around other "human beings" has been forgotten and a culture of attacking the different has evolved.

Why? Perhaps to protect the individual ideas and create echo chambers where people feel "safe" from criticism. Although without criticism (critical thinking), and without dealing with real world evidences... I fear we're getting nowhere.

It is a pity that something as MRAs exist: why should anyone need a specific gender movement to protect its rights. It is a failure that MGTOWs exist: why should anyone hate the environment created around its gender.

Keep the humanism up :)

dominotw2• 12 years ago

"Some men made statements that made us feel unwelcome in the tech industry"

We are going to respond my making generailized hate speech towards all men in the industry.

But seriously, are people expecting 100% support from all sections of society? Is that even a realistic expectation?

mycroft-holmes• 12 years ago

We are going to respond my making generailized hate speech towards all men in the industry.

This is a large part of my problem with some of the MVC writers. If you're a male, you're guilty. If you're white and male, you're really guilty.

Fomite9• 12 years ago

As a white male, I've never encountered this when actually interacting with, well, any feminist I've ever met.

paulv• 12 years ago

If you don't do the things that people are writing about, then they aren't talking about you.

You should read http://bitchtopia.com/2013/07/11/not-all-men-are-like-that/.

steveklabnik10• 12 years ago

I am a straight white male, and I know (and am friends with) many of the MVC writers. I even sponsored the latest issue. So I can say, empirically, you're wrong.

danilocampos5• 12 years ago

"hate speech"

You're gonna have to show your work on that one.

sama2• 12 years ago

this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue.

it's obvious to anyone really paying attention the tech industry (and probably most other industries) has been extremely unfair to women. writing like this--clear on the problem and supportive of people who want to help--is important, but it's also important to remember that we all collectively have to act to actually change things.

collyw• 12 years ago

Seriously. There are so few women in the tech industry, how would it be obvious to notice they have been unfairly treated?

One place I worked has a newspaper article on the wall about the high numbers of women hey hired. There were still only 3 on a floor of around 100 staff. All the places I have worked they have been treated as equals.

_bfhp14• 12 years ago

"this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue" is bull shit. I'm male and even I can figure this out.

Do you see what you're doing here? Do you even realize? Your comment reads: "THESE women are actually thoughtful, not like those bra-burning man-hating diatribes that I've come across from those crazy women in tech. If only all women were this calm and docile when talking about this subject." Maybe that wasn't the precise thoughts behind it, but it comes off as that condescending to everyone (particularly the women) who don't fit to your standards. You are saying "if you're going to talk about gender in tech, or even gender at all, be like these women or I don't care/you're crazy."

Every "piece", whatever the tone, is written for specific reasons, and you'd rather take the lazy route and rank them as "more/less thoughtful" than actually try to understand those reasons. Hey, I agree, there are some articles and such on gender-in-tech out there that could make points more strongly, could be tailored to their audience better, etc etc. You should respond to those with honest, interested questions. Not this. Edit: from the actual article itself:

"Being nice doesn’t work. We’ve been nice. Some of us that have written down our stories here have even been paraded around by men in the industry for how nice we’ve been in trying to address the social problems in tech as a way to discredit more vocal, astutely firm feminist voices. We don’t like this, we’ve never liked it, and it needs to stop."

Parading this article as "more reasonable" is the same dynamic; don't settle for the speech that you're comfortable with. Go back and try to understand why the other, louder speech made you uncomfortable.

danilocampos5• 12 years ago

Um, or it could be that this is just pretty well done, as a result of multiple voices contributing and the hard work of Shanley Kane as editor.

wwweston• 12 years ago

Disallowing people from having/expressing an opinion as to how helpful/thoughtful a piece is -- particularly a positive opinion -- seems as problematic as disallowing some pieces.

Maybe it's better to just let people express it when something resonates with them.

(And while any judgment on how thoughtful a piece is probably subjective, it seems unlikely that every piece is equivalent in how broadly it leads people think about issues in a helpful way.)

mercurial• 12 years ago

Do you see what you're doing here? Do you even realize? Your comment reads: "THESE women are actually thoughtful, not like those bra-burning man-hating diatribes that I've come across from those crazy women in tech. If only all women were this calm and docile when talking about this subject." Maybe that wasn't the precise thoughts behind it, but it comes off as that condescending to everyone (particularly the women) who don't fit to your standards. You are saying "if you're going to talk about gender in tech, or even gender at all, be like these women or I don't care/you're crazy."

You're completely projecting here. Parent's post really doesn't read like that. You even quote words it doesn't have (unless it has been edited) like "reasonable" when it says "thoughtful", which is really not the same thing at all.

sama2• 12 years ago

seriously? yes, I'm saying these women wrote a particularly good letter. i think its important to praise good work.

i didn't say anything about "if only all women were this calm and docile when talking about this subject"--that's all you. all i said was that this was particularly good.

steveklabnik10• 12 years ago

Hey, I just wanted to say thanks to you and/or dang for un-flagging it.

gfosco• 12 years ago

"We are your community leaders, your open source contributors, your keynote speakers, and many call us role models."

.... Yeah, ok.

arzugula6• 12 years ago

Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions.

So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence?

What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers?

What do we call the feminists who lobby against equal parenting rights for fathers and for stripping the right to due process of those accused of domestic or sexual violence?

Feminism is not about equality - that would be called humanism or egalitarianism and would not focus on one specific identity group.

Feminism is the dying ideology of demonizing and subjugating men. Feminism is Marxist ideology maladroitly applied to the genders in order to paint the male gender as sub-human, innately heartless, and evil oppressors, while painting women as perpetually innocent victims.

A movement truly concerned with equality would address areas where human rights are actually unequal such as the outcomes of family courts or no-fault divorce law. Instead we see feminism focusing on non-issues to further their political agenda (#banbossy) or in warping every situation in which a woman gets slighted by an asshole male into proof of "patriarchy".

ska2• 12 years ago

"So what do we call the feminists who ..."

A parody. That one's easy.

arzugula6• 12 years ago

Ahh, so all of those racist Aryan Nation members are just parodies, since the marketing slogan of the Aryan Nation claims their ideology to be one of "love and pride".

ska2• 12 years ago

addendum: this was teasing and perhaps a bit snarky, but there is no rational analysis in which the parents characterization is typical of feminist practice or rhetoric. Which is a very different thing from finding someone who claims the label "feminist" and espouses these views or any other.

This sort of characterization by outliers and strawmen (women?) is ridiculous, but also damaging to the possibility of reasonable discussion. Shame on you for engaging in it.

That said, it was silly of me to engage in this sort of discussion here, it's not likely to go anywhere useful. I should probably just delete this and be done with it.

minikites• 12 years ago

It's disappointing that you think advances in rights for women have to come at the expense of men.

zo15• 12 years ago

It's disappointing that they had to do that at all. Equality can be achieved without bashing anyone.

arzugula6• 12 years ago

Unfortunately it is feminism that tells us this through their rhetoric that demonizes men and their actions of lobbying for legislation that subjugates men.

stackcollision2• 12 years ago

I knew a feminist in high school who wanted to photocopy my draft papers so she could sign up too. Definitely not legal, but she was absolutely adamant that if men and women were to be equal, women should have to defend the country too.

Feminism is about equality, when it's done right. Unfortunately, it's been perverted into "down with the patriarchy". We call those people "Feminazis".

zo15• 12 years ago

You're getting downvoted probably because you're making people uncomfortable. It doesn't fit their world-view, and they will do their best to shut you down so that they don't have to face themselves on their predecided views/opinions.

People refuse knowledge because it means responsibility.

juridatenshi• 12 years ago

I see you've found the strawfeminists. http://www.harkavagrant.com/?id=341

HSSSSSSSSSS!

joshuapants6• 12 years ago

Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman.

Our Blood by Andrea Dworkin, 1976

It's not a strawmyn when it's based on reality. Not all feminists, not even all radical feminists espouse views like this, but they exist and to brush them under the rug impedes meaningful discourse.

arzugula6• 12 years ago

Ahh it must have been straw-feminists who lobbied successfully for the Tender Years Doctrine, the Duluth Model, and VAWA? http://www.rdo-olr.uottawa.ca/index2.php?option=com_sobi2&so...

Straw-feminists that routinely lobby against equal parenting legislation? https://nationalparentsorganization.org/blog/20980-as-it-was...

Straw-feminists that suppress gender symmetry in domestic violence? http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V71-Straus_Thirty-Years-Denyin...

Straw-feminists that compare the life of the western woman to life in a nazi concentration camp? http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/...

Straw-feminists that claim "otherwise decent guys will rape and not even think that it’s wrong." https://web.archive.org/web/20060421031452/http://feministin...

Please point us to all the feminist action for equal _human_ rights, not just self-serving political and social policy.

Tell us all about the feminist outrage over men's suicide rates or the gender disparity in federal medical research funding?

Feminist picketing outside of family courts in protest of men's lack of custody rights?

Feminist sponsored legislation that gives men equal reproductive rights?

We'll wait... In the mean time, how about if feminists could at least let those of us actually interested in _human_ rights have a discussion without pulling the fire alarm?

xamebax4• 12 years ago

So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence?
What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers?
What do we call the feminists who lobby against equal parenting rights for fathers and for stripping the right to due process of those accused of domestic or sexual violence?

I'd call them non-existent.

hkmurakami8• 12 years ago

Kat has started organizing casual lightning talks featuring female speakers. The talks have now taken place in both San Francisco and New York.

I thought that attending these would help me in various ways (all the words I can come up with fail to fit my sentiments so I'm going to leave it vague like this), but the link [1] doesn't lead to any resource where I can find out about future such events (presumably they'd be held at Stripe since Kat, the host, is employed there). Does anyone know where I can find this info?

[1] https://stripe.com/events/lightningpies

mreiland30• 12 years ago

I just want to develop software, and I don't personally give a shit about the gender of the people I'm working with.

...Until they start shoving these sorts of issues down my throat. If I get to choose between the male that just wants to develop software and the female who wants to tell me all about how terrible it is working in our industry as a woman, I'm going to pick the male. Why? Because I'm very goal oriented and I just want to develop software. Take your fucking crusade somewhere else please.

OTOH, and this is the mystifying part, I've seen just as many men complaining about it as women. Guess which I'd choose if it was the female just working and the male going on about the female inequality? I'd prefer working with the female. That's what a lack of gender bias gets you.

Did you know I was once dismissed early from a job interview because I refused something to drink when it was offered to me(I had a weird suspicions and had it confirmed that the offer was a 'test')? I once got feedback from a job interview that the reason they didn't hire me was because I didn't show up with a notepad to take notes. And l lets be honest, that's not the real reason, I have it on good authority they already found who they wanted, but were fulfilling obligations.

I once had a CEO roll his eyes at me in the middle of a meeting and say something to the effect of "you software people...".

We've all experienced the bullshit. The truth is, people are stupid, biased creatures. yes. EVEN YOU.

Do you think ugly people have it harder than attractive people? Do you think younger people have it harder than older people in most industries? What about southern accents in a northing US state? Southern accents are considered "dumb", after all. I know of atleast 1 man from Rhode Island who refused to work with anyone from southern states because they were all dumb. That's a true story.

There are so many things that people can be biased about, yes, including gender.

The problem is that nothing has been so divisive in our industry in recent years as much as the "discussion" surrounding gender equality.

And me? I just want to fucking get work done. I don't care, not because I'm an asshole, but because I myself am not biased. Nor have I really seen a lot of bias in the places I've chosen to be. I have seen behavior that's resulted from the fact that males and females have a tendency to be attracted to each other. It's a fact of pretty much every facet of our lives. It isn't good, it isn't bad, it just is.

One thing I would like to address though.

I saw a complaint about "being called a cunt on a mailing list, and no one said anything about/to the person saying it".

That's equality for you. If someone called me a dick, or an asshole, on a mailing list, in no way would I expect others to rally to my defense. I'd have to make a choice. Do I respond in kind, do I not respond in kind, do I not respond at all? Do I escalate, do I de-escalate? Do I walk away for a few hours/days while I contemplate what to do, or do I simply blacklist the individual?

But at no point would I expect others to step in and defend me for me. I'll defend myself. I expect it of myself, and everyone else expects it of me as well, including the women. Is that gender bias on the women's part?

No, it's differing expectations. everyone will think the person is an asshole, whether they called the female a cunt, or the male a dick/asshole/what have you. But they may not say anything, that's life on both sides of that coin.

Someone calling you a bad name on a mailing list just means you got called a bad name. The name chosen may have been gender specific since you're female, but that doesn't indicate a bias. We live in a society with gender specific insults... and people not defending you isn't a bias either. Learn to defend yourself.

Now being groped is completely unacceptable behavior for both sides. That person should be dealt with immediately. There are few things I would agree someone needs to be called out for, but that sort of behavior is one of them.

tl;dr; STFU, develop software, and learn to defend yourself. I have shit I have to deal with too, but I didn't enter this industry to be told how terrible my gender is, I entered this industry because I love building software.

edit: One thing I should note. I've had women walk up to me and grab my ass before. It may not be as prevalent, but it happens both ways, and it's just as inappropriate both ways.

Fomite9• 12 years ago

I cannot downvote you hard enough.

danilocampos5• 12 years ago

I just want to develop software

So do they.

mreiland30• 12 years ago

Many of them do. The ones going on crusades do not, they are the ones I'm specifically referring to.

MyGod4• 12 years ago

This. It seems feminist indoctrinated HN still has few people with brain here. I hope you don't mind me making screengrab of your post and using it instead of writing my own (with all credit to you of course).

Fomite9• 12 years ago

The notion that HN is "feminist indoctrinated" is absurd.

was_hellbanned2• 12 years ago

You might want to revise your post. It has some good points in it (e.g. the CEO bit), but they're hidden inside a very long rant laced with red flags like:

Until they start shoving these sorts of issues down my throat

I'm willing to bet that nobody has ever done anything like shoving anything down your throat, and that sort of repulsive hyperbole is just a marker for irrational, reactionary flame-bait.

Incidentally, if you believe that writing a blog post is "shoving these sorts of issues down your throat", then you should take a serious dose of your own medicine.

mreiland30• 12 years ago

I don't really care if you approve or not, but I think honesty on your part would have you clarifying that you made an assumption about blog posts being the only possible way I've ever experienced interaction on this topic.

mrweasel• 12 years ago

That's equality for you. If someone called me a dick, or an asshole, on a mailing list, in no way would I expect others to rally to my defense.

I really agree with this, there's going to be assholes everywhere, especially on the internet. I don't know if women are targeted by them more often than me, but if the plan is the eliminate them I wish you good luck, but I'm not going to waste my time.

The majority of people really do not care about your gender, race or religion, but a few are going to use it against you, or just resort to to offend you in some generic term.

There will be jerks everywhere, accept it. I really wish there where more women in technology, but I'm not going to treat you any different than my male colleague and I don't appreciate the hostile attitude that many ( fare for all ) women projects.

I get that women don't want to deal the sexual harassment, jerks, assholes, but you encounter that everywhere. I'm not saying that it makes it okay, but just maybe it's not a "women in technology", it might just be a generic problem that needs to be tackled in a broader arena.

The whole debate is really of track and I really don't care anymore, I just get increasing pissed when the topic comes up. It seems that "the men" can't do anything right and guess what, many of us are tried of it and have just checked out. It not our problem anymore. Awesome way of enlisting help for the people who just view women as equal colleagues.

lhnz3• 12 years ago

  >> We are not the 'nice feminists' of this community.
  >    Being nice doesn’t work. We’ve been nice.

In this article you were actually all nice and I read right to the bottom. I certainly do find it a lot easier to listen to and agree with people that aren't spilling hatred at me. I never want to feel like I'm giving time to somebody trying to extract some psychological harm as revenge on my gender - whether or not they have a reason to be angry with the status quo, the target market often doesn't last long enough to receive your message.

   > We are tired of our male peers pretending that because they 
   > do not participate in bad behavior, that it is not their problem
   > to solve. If you see someone engage in bad behavior and you
   > do nothing, you’ve chosen to let that person think that what they
   > did is okay. This leaves us feeling like we’re fighting this alone. 
   > We can’t work on what we can’t see, but if you’re there when it
   > happens, you can help. It is absolutely imperative that men work
   > with other men to combat bad attitudes and behavior.

This is true. Though it's not just heteronormativity or misogyny. It often seems like there might be the "bystander effect" at play, too. Not that you were arguing that and not to try to argue that this makes it okay, but just to argue that people taking responsibility when they have the power to do so are the exception and not the rule in human nature.

I agree that people should speak up if you see something wrong even if they just say something small, but I reckon it will be hard/impossible to educate all to do so. However if those that notice something is up speak up then it will be a better place for all of us. And for those that notice but are too shy to kick up a fuss, there is always more subtle signalling that can be used: tilt your body away from the aggressor, go quiet and start a conversation with somebody outside the group - disinterest, and "awkwardness" can be powerful.

   *   *   *

Going slightly off-topic here just to say something that I care about. Something that has been quite difficult for me to read in other feminist pieces/tweets is the meme "not all men" which is often quickly followed by "ALL MEN!". It might be annoying to have guys constantly interrupting to raise themselves onto a little pedestal as caring gentlemen, but this is creating a wall between two groups and we both need to work beyond the meme. @slatestarcodex made a very good point in an article [1] I read recently, which explains how both sides are affected:

   > "So the one problem is that people have a right not to have
   > unfair below-the-belt tactics used to discredit them without 
   > ever responding to their real arguments. And the other 
   > problem is that victims of non-representative members of a
   > group have the right to complain, even though those complaints
   > will unfairly rebound upon the other members of that group."

In nerd-speak what he's saying is that you have a right to be angry with people that are victimising you and need to be able to speak about this, but at the same time when you say it anybody else in that group that didn't victimise you often feels that they are collateral damage (and this is actually the case, the connotations will affect them.) I don't know a solution. I side with you but some activist somewhere will hopefully step up and find a way of talking about groups in a way that doesn't turn all men into misogynists, all germans into nazis, all whites into walking privileges, and all feminists into fat, angry, lesbians (or whatever people say to discredit you.) It clearly isn't fair to individuals.

  *   *   *

I don't think all men are out to get you. I also don't think there's a huge misogyny problem in the industry in comparison to some other industries and cultures I've mixed with. (Perhaps my bad luck.) This is my opinion from listening to the perspectives of the people around me and watching their behaviour around women.

However I do think we have a significant diversity problem and that it's altering the interactions between men and women in the tech industry in a very bad way. We're unfortunately at a point where it's probably most difficult for women. There are enough of you to talk about the problems you face, but not enough that you don't have your environment dominated by us.

I often hear tech men desperately wishing they had more women working in their company. And here is a big problem: it's not because they want to give you economic choices but because of sexual deprivation. I'm sorry if communication is nasty for you right now, I think a more diverse group would stamp out the majority of shitty interactions and we'll get there eventually. Until then some of those men are going to be acting nice trying to get close to you so they can eventually flip to their ulterior motives, while others will be running asshole PUA game on you to see what they can "get away with". Finally of course there'll be a large percentage of misogynistic or bitter (MRA) jerks that want to make you feel small so they can feel good - and unfortunately with the current diversity levels they have a voice. I can imagine it's enraging.

Sorry if I inadvertently said something that clashes with whatever feminism you all share. I just wanted to speak truthfully about how I see everything.

[1] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweapo...

mreiland30• 12 years ago

I don't think all men are out to get you. I also don't think there's a huge misogyny problem in the industry in comparison to some other industries and cultures I've mixed with. (Perhaps my bad luck.) This is my opinion from listening to the perspectives of the people around me and watching their behaviour around women. However I do think we have a significant diversity problem and that it's altering the interactions between men and women in the tech industry in a very bad way.

I think this is a fair assessment.

Finally of course there'll be a large percentage of misogynistic or bitter (MRA) jerks that want to make you feel small so they can feel good - and unfortunately with the current diversity levels they have a voice. I can imagine it's enraging.

This is where the wheels come off, and the bias shows.

There's a large percentage of men who are either misogynistic, and /or MRA jerks? Why aren't feminists characterized as jerks? Why are you painting MRA as jerks, but apologizing to feminists if you've accidentally offended them?

This is where those of us who really hold no bias start getting annoyed about the portrayal of the male gender. Men who care about men's rights are jerks, but women who care about women's rights get apologies if they get offended by reasonable arguments?

And this was done by a male. If the feminists were really honest they'd call this man to task for being biased towards women, and they would tell him they don't want to be held above the other gender either.

The person who posted this goes into depth about the men who have an "ulterior motive" about hiring women. What is this person's ulterior motive for pandering to women in this way?

Why do I have to be ok with being told how terrible my gender is in order to work in this industry anymore?

For the more moderate feminists, consider that. You have a lot of would be allies who get just as tired of being told how terrible they are, and just want you go to away as a result. And folks like the person who posted the above are not helping, they are pandering. A rational person can look at it and think "this isn't right either".

_bfhp14• 12 years ago

There's no such thing as the "male gender" ('male' refers to sex). You have a bias. For one thing, it's your years of socializaton as a boy and now a (young?) man. Understanding what feminists are trying to say takes work. You haven't done enough work yet. No one in 2014 is saying that it's terrible that you're male.

lhnz3• 12 years ago

I'm not pandering to anybody. I actually believe what I wrote.

But I do have a bias: I have a bias towards diplomacy. We all have biases and the sooner we admit that we're fallible minds that have lived just one life, not the objective thinkers we wish to present to our audience, the sooner we can begin to respect and listen to each other.

  > There's a large percentage of men who are either misogynistic, 
  > and /or MRA jerks? Why aren't feminists characterized as jerks?
  > Why are you painting MRA as jerks, but apologizing to feminists
  > if you've accidentally offended them?

Not all MRA are jerks. Not all feminists are jerks.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that a large percentage of men were misogynists. I meant to say that it was a slightly larger percentage than is normally visible and that this was mostly because in a 50/50 male/female environment they would self-censor as well as have less reason to feel the way they do while in the current 90/10 environment (or whatever it is) they do not need to.

I think the article was unusually fair and diplomatic for a tech gender piece. I wanted to repay this by commenting on my own opinions in as careful, constructive and fair way as I know how to. If I was to have posted an inflammatory rant about how angry feminists were just as bad as misogynists and then have tried to equate them using some ridiculous objective-appearing seesaw as if I was the divine judge of a gender-war then I'd be completely arguing against what I was arguing for: diplomacy and the acceptance and understanding of each other's problems as a result of there being a lack of diversity.

I want a better way of acting together, not to win a battle.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinions but you are way too confident of the truth of what you're saying to signal rationality.

chc2• 12 years ago

"Men's rights activism" is seldom more than bashing women and attempting to shout down and dismiss any issues they might raise. I think this is sad, because there are some interesting issues a "men's place in society" movement could address, but unfortunately whatever reasonable folk there might be under the "men's rights" label, they're drowned out by a flood of really hateful people.

beat7• 12 years ago

"Why aren't feminists characterized as jerks?"

Are you characterizing people who identify as "feminist" as jerks here? Perhaps you should reconsider your phrasing. And consider how "hold no bias" you sound when you say something like that.

hkmurakami8• 12 years ago

In this article you were actually all nice and I read right to the bottom. I certainly do find it a lot easier to listen to and agree with people that aren't spilling hatred at me. I never want to feel like I'm giving time to somebody trying to extract some psychological harm as revenge on my gender - whether or not they have a reason to be angry with the status quo, the target market often doesn't last long enough to receive your message.

This is true, yet such a delicate matter. Allow me to digress from the primary issue at hand to share an anecdote.

When I first read about the "check your privilege" controversy at my alma mater [1], my reaction was "we definitely have acute class issues, but by opening in such a confrontational way, we're taking away any possibility of having a constructive dialogue." Delivery so profoundly affects how we respond to the raising of an issue, and can be the difference between an instinctive defensiveness or a considered opening of the psychological gates.

The letter to the editor to the NYT piece puts it well:

"Most disturbing about the “check your privilege” comment to people making arguments at Princeton University is its utility in changing the subject away from their ideas, conservative or liberal. This kind of dismissive labeling needs to be called out for the ad hominem attack that it is. Recognizing it for what it is could undermine what it does, which is to sabotage debate."

It's a delicate line to walk -- being assertive and resolute, yet communicating understanding and cooperation. But if our goal is actual, gradual change for the better, rather than simply feeling good about ourselves for putting someone down or taking the pulpit for ourselves, then I feel that the means we choose must not fail to encourage our intended audience from lending us their ear.

It is so hard though, since each person's interpretation of language differs in so many subtle ways. We can see it in this very thread, where the same given post is interpreted in a wide range of intent.

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/03/nyregion/at-princeton-priv...

[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/12/opinion/a-hot-topic-at-pri...

pdonis2• 12 years ago

I don't know a solution

There is one, but it's extremely drastic: We would have to completely taboo group identification, everywhere, all the time. Everybody would have to be judged solely as an individual, on the individual merits of their case.

Unfortunately, we humans are social animals who evolved to form dominance and status hierarchies, so I strongly doubt this solution would actually be stable.

FD3SA3• 12 years ago

Such a fascinating article. Let's break this post down:

- Anecdotes used for evidence (check)

- Moral outrage declared (check)

- Call to arms based on emotion (check)

- Appeal to baseless fanatical ideology (check)

- Vilification of a massive segment of the population as homogeneous villians (check)

There really appears to be a massive disconnect between very high intelligence and the ability to accurately observe the real world. Or perhaps in the age when page views reign supreme, rational empirical analysis becomes a vestigial burden from a bygone era.

For you rebels out there who still demand scientific rigor in your articles, please consider an expert's opinion on the matter at your discretion [1].

1. http://edge.org/memberbio/helena_cronin

beat7• 12 years ago

- And how do you get evidence without anecdotes?

- If true, should we not be morally outraged?

- If true, should we not be emotional? Should there not be a call to arms?

- (expletive deleted)

- Are men truly treated homogeneously in this article?

- Is every opinion you don't like stupid and/or irrational?

escape_goat• 12 years ago

I am going to convey my experience of reading this, in the hopes that it might be helpful. The message that I get from this essay is as follows.

"We are angry with the way we are treated as women, by men. We are angry with the way we see other women being treated by men. Even though you might not personally have treated us like this, we know that you are a man, like other men, and we hold you responsible for what has happened to us and what we have seen. You have power, and we don't. It is by your choice and negligence as men that we are powerless and demeaned. You are not innocent, even though you think you are. We aren't interested in your opinion. You don't know anything. You need to change to make us not angry."

The reason I think this might be interesting is that I know (re-reading the letter, especially) that THIS IS NOT WHAT THE LETTER SAYS. For one thing, it is far from the only thing discussed in the letter; more importantly, however, I don't think this interpretation is all that fair a reading of what the authors have actually written. I know that it's a distorted version of what they intended to convey, and it might not even represent a correct interpretation of how any of them feel.

So why is this my impression? Your own conclusions are welcome, of course. You're free to dismiss me out of hand. But for myself, I think that it has to do with the confluence of two factors. Firstly, I don't really feel that I have a lot of power over women. Actually, I feel like women have a lot of power over me. My life is inextricably entangled with the lives of women, and it would be a meaningless, barren hell were this not so. But instead, and secondly, I am being told how separate I actually am --- and always will be --- from women. I am being told that women are not being treated as people by writers who go on to talk about women, and men, and the relationship of victimization between the two, without hardly a word about people, and how people treat each other, and how some people come to treat other people differently, and what we can do about it. Instead, I feel, I am being told that I am wrong to treat people as 'women' by people who are using the power of that identity as leverage to demand my compliance.

If feminism is the radical notion that women are people, then a feminism that is not about people is radically flawed. I don't like people having power over me, either. I don't like being treated as the avatar of someone's fears, pain, and disappointment, either. I don't like not being treated as if I'm me, really a person, either.

This is all off the cuff, and I have no time to be writing it, but that's my experience, and my reaction, and thanks for reading it.

FD3SA3• 12 years ago

Precisely. This article, and all others like it just come off sounding like childish boolean logic applied to billions of people, each as different as a randomly generated hash code.

If the only observation one can make about a case is that the accused has a Y chromosome and the accuser doesn't, one clearly needs to perform deeper analysis.

jberryman• 12 years ago

I think your reaction is really interesting and honest. And isn't part of the problem that we can't really solve this problem or come to real understanding by way of open letters and blog posts? Which is not to say that this article or this discussion isn't useful, but I find when you talk in person all the sort of "point-winning" and defensive reactions and misunderstandings get dispensed with extremely quickly.

And that's unfortunate because we're all so plugged in and used to doing great things and solving problems by way of posts, uploads, and comment threads. Just some off-the-cuff thoughts as well.

litmus2• 12 years ago

I also was worried that there was something wrong with my reading comprehension. To me, one of the most critical parts of the essay seemed the most weakly written, namely the "Encouraging greater diversity in the workspace" section. Here I am thinking "ok, here comes the concrete suggestions for what men should do"--and then I'm left with a phrase without a definition. That section talks about events thrown by women for women it seems--precisely the things companies that "only pay lip service" would point to as evidence of their feminist credentials. In other words, those places and events don't look like "workplaces" at all. They may be encouraging women to work in tech "in general" and improving their skills but they are no means directly getting the women hired into the workplaces in question.

So just so I get this right: When they say "Encourage diversity in the workplace" do they mean "all things being equal, hire the women", or do they mean "all things being not immensely unequal, hire the women"?

smokeyj• 12 years ago

My only questions is why we're making bullying a gender issue. Bullying affects boys and girls from childhood, and learning how to deal with bullies seems like a gender agnostic issue. But maybe that's my privilege speaking..

Edit: Maybe I seem dismissive of the issue, but I'm really not. I just feel like there's a core problem here that has been incubating since the recess playground. I don't think people turn into bullies over night, rather they've grown to accept their role as aggressors due to never being confronted, and consequently grow even more empowered.

What we're witnessing as adults is what we see on the school yard. Everyone can see that the bully is a jerk, but everyone passively goes along with the flow. Why? Fear of retaliation and ostracization. Maybe everyone will think you're a looser for sticking up for the other looser. You want to be in the cool club so keep your mouth shut. Anyways, that's my two cents.

fred_durst4• 12 years ago

Sometimes I feel like there are people that confuse just being a jerk in general, with being a jerk specifically to women.

In this industry I've met a lot of really great people, and unfortunately a ton of arrogant, egotistical, pretentious and aggressive jerks. I've felt like crap being around those people tons of times.

Sometimes they say mean things about women, sometimes about liberals or republicans or people from India or making fun of someone's Github pull request to an open source project. I've heard things that smell of Social Darwinism. All kinds of junk. But all of it seems to come from the same jerks. It doesn't seem like there is like the "I hate women" jerk and the "Stupid people deserve poverty" etc. It seems like most hateful jerks just hate everyone.

It seems in tech, people's positions in companies are very much based on a particular skill or having a bunch of money. And very little to do with whether or not they are a jerk. So maybe this is just that we end up with a higher concentration of general jerks? Also, right now this industry is where the money is, and that always has a tendency to up the jerk ratio as well.

anuleczka6• 12 years ago

That's the thing, though. By promoting a more feminist, egalitarian, diverse culture for tech, we by definition eliminate the jerks. Why do we have to take as a given that we have to take the jerks along with the money?

fred_durst4• 12 years ago

I absolutely agree. I was only relaying that maybe if we focus more on the jerk part, and less on the specifics of the brand of jerk we might help solve the problem of all the people who have to deal with jerks in this industry, not just one specific group.

vezzy-fnord2• 12 years ago

Your implication here is that people who identify under your listed banners cannot be jerks. This is simply an outright falsehood. An ideology that insists it cannot have jerks among its ranks is one that probably needs to look in the mirror.

226jg5• 12 years ago

This is a topic I feel very strongly about, but I have to treat like it's radioactive. Hence, this is a throwaway account and I will not be using it again.

I am a white male in my early 30s. I'm strongly libertarian and do everything in my power to make sure that people have the opportunity to work in a safe and non-threatening environment. I go out of my way to make sure that people who do not share my "type A" personality are included in group activities, and spend a good deal of energy monitoring and adjusting my body language to be inviting without being aggressive. This in particular doesn't come naturally to me, and as an introvert, is quite exhausting.

The one time I attempted to work with the the social circle that authors and maintains Model-View-Culture, I was met with the single most obvious and aggressive display of sexism I've encountered in my professional career. They used gender-based names to refer to me in a very derogatory and degrading way, and proceeded to go through my social profiles and mock my private life and family - because I had the audacity to attempt to engage them in a conversation while being male.

Does this mean we’re going to get angry at you if you try to help and get it wrong? This is an a fear that has come to light through side channels. Men know there is a problem, and they’re worried the women they know are on the defensive - especially when reading a direct call to action like this one.
They want to help but they’re worried if they don’t get everything just right, someone will chastise them into oblivion.

No, I'm not worried that I'll be chastised - I'm worried that my gender will result in a situation where any action (or inaction) on my part will result in my being ostracized from the professional community to which I've devoted a large part of my adult life. Further, I base this fear on my own actual experience and the direct observation of the experiences of others.

The people signing this document are patient when they see someone trying to make a difference.

Perhaps. To be fair, the people who lashed out at me are not listed on this document. They are members of the same social circle though, and the thought of putting my career and my family's livelihood on the line to try and solve problems that do not directly impact me is terrifying. I am supposed to trust them not to dox me, spread that information to their entire social circle, then use it to publicly shame me?

http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/investigation-online-gath...

I want to help. I really do. I have a wife, daughters, and my own mother is a long-time feminist. I consider myself a feminist, though not of the radical far-left variety they practice. As much as I've been preached to about how feminism is hostile because they are not in a position of power, they've wielded that power arbitrarily and willfully when they found themselves able to do so.

The only way to win this game is not to play.

mreiland30• 12 years ago

And the worst part is that not all of them are that way.

Like you, my mother was also strongly feminist. She had a very strong personality, and I grew up being a "feminist".

It wasn't until I got older and started seeing the movement as a whole that I started distancing myself from it.

Because I agree that wrongs need to be righted, and that women have every right to equality as men.

I just don't agree that means I should be ashamed of my gender, or that I'm automatically an asshole.

worksaf5• 12 years ago

Thank you for making better points than I did. I feel like there is no "discussion" here, just blatant attacks on anyone who disagrees with any of the conclusions made by the authors.

GHFigs2• 12 years ago

Article conflates feminism with women. Not all women are Feminist or seek to be. Women are human beings and should be treated as such. Feminism is an ideology and should be treated as such. Why confuse people by taking about them like they're the same thing?

_bfhp14• 12 years ago

Feminism is an ideology

This is where you're factually (yes, factually) wrong. Try: !w feminism

GHFigs2• 12 years ago

What are you trying to say, exactly? If you're trying to say I'm unfamiliar with feminism, you're wrong. If you're trying to say that feminism isn't an ideology, you've made the poor choice of suggesting an article that uses the word ideologies in the first sentence. If you're trying to snipe at me for using the singular instead of the plural, I shall have to say Q.E.D.

bowlofpetunias• 12 years ago

I wish we could leave codebabes.com out of the equation when it comes to women in tech. This is not an industry thing, and opinions on whether or not it's okay for these kind of things to exist are divided, and not across gender lines and including amongst feminists.

It falls in the same category as porn. It's a valid debate, but it's a separate debate.

jack-r-abbit• 12 years ago

If you see someone engage in bad behavior and you do nothing, you've chosen to let that person think that what they did is okay. This leaves us feeling like we’re fighting this alone.

There is easily dozens (hundreds?) of "fights" that I could get into everyday but I don't. I'm not really a confrontational person. Please don't take it personally when this fight is also one I don't get into.

mreiland30• 12 years ago

It isn't even about that, you pick and choose your fights. If you try to fight every injustice, you'll succeed at none.

You have to choose when to fight.

dang• 12 years ago

This post has fallen in rank because users flagged it. No moderator penalized it.

An open letter on feminism in tech

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