NSA Reportedly Intercepts And Alters Routers And Servers Exported From U.S.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/05/13/nsa-reportedly-intercepts-and-alters-routers-and-servers-exported-from-u-s-to-facilitate-surveillance/

by yanofsky • 12 years ago

98 45 12 years ago

techcrunch.com

hnha• 12 years ago

no need for techcrunch spam, the original source was already submitted and discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7734418

yanofsky• 12 years ago

oops, my bad. apologies everyone

tomp• 12 years ago

Translation of the NSA statement:

We don't deny altering hardware. In fact, if we (likely) install backdoors into hardware used by foreign intelligence targets; but don't worry, we're not interested in the casual user. As the US Government relies on commercial hardware, we make sure that only the US Government can access the backdoors. We're angry that this was made public, and we can't prove that it jeopardizes human lives.

sentenza2• 12 years ago

It also sheds some new light on the "China-hardware is bad for you" media campaign that was run right before Snowden happened. It seems that not buying American means keeping the American intelligence community out of ones network.

But I guess you _actually_ can't trust the Chinese either. That doesn't leave many hardware vendors for heavy-duty network equipment to choose from.

pmorici• 12 years ago

"It seems that not buying American means keeping the American intelligence community out of ones network."

Will barricading your front door keep thieves from coming in the side window?

gaius• 12 years ago

Sure you can. The Chinese are 10,000 miles away and don't really care about Western domestic politics. It might be different if you are an arms or pharma company, but for the average citizen concerned about civil liberties, you really can trust the Chinese in this case.

Faust19852• 12 years ago

Hrm, guess I wont buy American any more.

jon_black2• 12 years ago

I've started doing the same. Of course, I wouldn't be shocked if either or both of the following were true:

1. Other countries collude with America in this practise; 2. Other countries are also practising this.

Open source is a potential solution to this problem. It doesn't guarantee security (heartbleed anyone?), but it does allow anyone, anywhere, any time (assuming capability) to verify. My router runs Open-WRT, so I feel safer.

jon_black2• 12 years ago

Thinking about this more, there's a little problem for those living in "the land of opportunity": given that the government has access to all communication via its dragnet, they're aware of your purchase and can intercept it at customs. Now you might try to be smart and buy it in person while on holiday. But remember, the airport NSA can take it off your without reason and of course do what they want to it.

I'm glad I don't live there.

IgorPartola• 12 years ago

"Do you mean a car designed in the US and built in China, or a Japanese car built in Ohio?" I'm pretty sure that given how few choices of mainstream hardware there are you are screwed no matter what you buy.

Faust19852• 12 years ago

Oh certainly, I'm not saying I'm there's a need to be a fanatical purist and go through component that goes into my equipment.

I'll just stop purchasing the bulk from US supplies and subsidiaries it's not like there aren't alternative suppliers with good prices.

uptown• 12 years ago

So is it safe to assume every Intel or AMD CPU also likely has hidden capabilities waiting to be exploited by the NSA?

sentenza2• 12 years ago

Rumors about this have been around for a long time but as far as I know, nobody has proven anything.

The safest guess right now is that if an American intelligence agency wants to infiltrate your corporate network, they'll take the IPMI route. With that they probably wouldn't even have to rely on a backdoor but could use the existing security holes.

tptacek• 12 years ago

What are the hidden router capabilities being exploited here? What piece of COTS hardware couldn't be exploited by an attacker with unlimited physical access to it prior to delivery?

wes-exp• 12 years ago

Indeed. Somehow a story about NSA tampering with devices after manufacture is being twisted into "all commercial products are deliberately backdoored". If you actually use logic, these are separate issues.

Actually, if anything, the story is proof that the routers are not backdoored from the start, otherwise why would they have to intercept shipments?

stuki2• 12 years ago

Not just waiting....

If you have the ability to insert backdoors on widely used hardware with no realistic alternative implementations, without anyone other than a very select few (who all have plenty to lose if they reveal anything) knowing about it; AND the only thing you'll use it for is National Security (preventing someone from building a nuke to drop on your country), why would you NOT go through with it?

higherpurpose• 12 years ago

Can HN please stop censoring/penalizing NSA stories? Getting flagged is one thing, but I believe they are also penalized by the site.

beejiu• 12 years ago

This reminds me of a story about a TOR developer who suspected her keyboard from Amazon was intercepted and implanted, because the redirection was included in the delivery log. Seems quite likely it was, in light of Glenn's latest slides release.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140124/10564825981/nsa-in...

danielweber• 12 years ago

What is the specific smoking gun I am supposed to see there?

ds92• 12 years ago

The Dulles area is known as a hub for US spook-agency headquarters and activities.

It's not obvious tho that this is suspicious - there's also a big airport there and it could be just a shipping facility. I guess the argument is that it is an unnecessary detour if it could have gone right to Alexandria.

I'd like to see (a) other CA shipments, say non-computer items, to Alexandria - and whether they go via Dulles and (b) a followup indicating whether Shepard found anything of interest.

smutticus• 12 years ago

How much hardware is actually made in the USA anymore? Most HW is manufactured in Taiwan, China, Korea, Thailand, Malaysia or maybe Mexico. I used to work for a router manufacturer that manufactured all of its equipment in Taiwan and Mexico. When we shipped to someone in Europe(for example) we shipped directly from Taiwan to Europe, not through the US. So I have to wonder how much of this stuff the NSA could actually get their hands on.

The other question I have is what happens when there is an RMA, or the equipment is sent back for repair? Might someone notice that it's been tampered with? We need more specifics to really understand what was going on here. So many questions, no real answers.

pasbesoin• 12 years ago

This is not based upon any particular knowledge or expertise, but upon many years of casual observation, general news reporting, and anecdote from friends and whomever: Given their position as well as long-standing ties both politically and militarily as well as economically, I have to -- in my own mind -- seriously question the independence of anything of real interest to the U.S., that's happening in Taiwan.

I don't mean that the Taiwanese aren't their own people with their own interests; nonetheless, I would expect to find their various systems rather thoroughly and effectively infiltrated.

Again, I don't have any real knowledge in this regard. I'd welcome more knowledgeable comments in response to mine.

eyeareque4• 12 years ago

I'm not sure how much is shipped directly from the over seas manufacturer to the customer. However, the NSA could be intercepting RMA hardware as well.

intslack6• 12 years ago

Anything that's shipped from the US, basically. From the slides released with Greenwald's new book today: https://i.imgur.com/lCM0apx.png

Here's the source, but be warned that this is a 90 MB pdf: http://hbpub.vo.llnwd.net/o16/video/olmk/holt/greenwald/NoPl...

csandreasen6• 12 years ago

I get the feeling that if every router was being intercepted, that picture would look more like a giant series of assembly lines rather than three people casually sitting around a Cisco box.

stuki2• 12 years ago

I simply cannot fathom how the NSA could hope to intercept and physically mess with every single piece of $10 to $10,000 router sold.

If true, and I have a hard time believing it is not, either this is done at the design level (and not just on router chips), or only for big ticket backbone and/or enterprise equipment.

Someone• 12 years ago

It doesn't have to be every $10 router. Plant one compromised router at each router factory, check when primary target X, Y or Z orders routers, intercept that shipment and hack each router.

eyeareque4• 12 years ago

How can we protect ourselves from this type of interception? It seems impossible. Why would any non-american customers buy US made devices? Any protections that are added can/will be bypassed if the US gov gets physical access (or even remote).

ds92• 12 years ago

Just about the time of the previous revelation of computers from outside the US being intercepted by TLAs, my new Lenovo was delayed for a long time in some customs facility (according to UPS tracking).

Software is not a concern as I blew away the preinstalled and put a relatively trusted OS on. But hardware - I haven't had time to look into it but I'm still wanting some sort of guide on what to look for after unscrewing the case.

eyeareque4• 12 years ago

The scary part is that blowing away the OS install won't save you completely. There are BIOS, firmware attacks, to name a couple. Take a look at the following link with information about persistent root access via hard drive firmware hacking. Even if you reinstall the OS, your box will continue to be owned:

http://spritesmods.com/?art=hddhack&page=1

eyeareque4• 12 years ago

I wish they posted more details surrounding the implants, what they can do, and how they work. Knowing this would help us detect when devices were compromised.

dang• 12 years ago

A dupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7734418.

NSA Reportedly Intercepts And Alters Routers And Servers Exported From U.S.

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