Crunched

by JRM • 19 years ago

25 40 19 years ago

An Applet is not the programming equivalent of a phonograph.

I haven't been able to get an invite so I don't know how draftmix works. But using an applet for the live draft client gives me a huge advantage--I can use the same exact code on the client and server sides.

I assume you're using Flash on the client and something else on the server.

This means you have to maintain two versions of the same exact code. Every bug you find has to fixed twice.

-Ori http://www.fleaflicker.com/contact.do

omouse• 19 years ago

An Applet is not the programming equivalent of a phonograph.

In terms of the timeline it is. It has been replaced by Flash and now AIR and Silverlight are trying to do what Applets were used for. SUN seems to be moving away from them as well, by introducing WebStart.

jsjenkins1682• 19 years ago

Java applets leave an antiquated impression with most, mainly because people still conjure up memories of applets from 5+ years ago. Painfully slow, buggy, overused.

The reality though is that applets are significantly faster now, and they are very powerful. But I doubt this will change the impression most people have of them. Flash does most of what you would need, and now there is AIR if you need access to the file system or other low level functionality.

I think a mistake Sun is making is with all the branding they do with applets. Showing a Java logo each time an applet launches is a shameless plug and leaves an impression that a lot of crap is loading. The bootstrap process should be more seamless, in my opinion. They still have not changed this as far as I know.

BrandonM5• 19 years ago

If you're using applets, I'm not using your site. Java plugin support in Linux, especially on 64-bit platforms, is not up to par. I have tried numerous times to get Java applets working in my browser before simply throwing up my hands and declaring that any site which used Java applets was not worth my time.

Flash is nearly as painful, but I was at least able to get it working. Additionally, with so many sites using Flash, it's hard to ignore all of them. I used Flashblock for a while because I was tired of pointless Flash (Flashblock allows you to activate a Flash object if you wish), but so many sites used Flash that I found the plugin to be a hindrance rather than something I appreciated.

Personally, if a site avoids using Flash or applets altogether (GMail comes to mind), I appreciate it that much more. When Javascript doesn't get the job done, Flash, to me, is definitely the lesser of two evils.

alaskamiller2• 19 years ago

Stop using Linux. Problem solved.

mattmaroon10• 19 years ago

It does require separation of code, but not twice as much debugging. Every bug does not have to be fixed twice. It's similar to MVC architecture in a way, with the flex client being the view. I'd be surprised if the bug fixing isn't actually easier due to the separation.

Also, your goal in a startup is not to make it easy for you to code, but to make it easy for your users to play. (You only do the former where it assists with the latter.) Java does not accomplish that. People don't want to piss with JRE. It is a bloated nightmare that crashes people's systems, nags them about updates, slows down bootup, etc.

Everyone has Flash. In fact, more people have flash than javascript (turned on) making it the most commonly accepted environment. It and AJAX are really the only acceptable choices for a live draft.

mynameishere• 19 years ago

Don't get into language wars when you're trying to sell a product. Obviously, Java applets work for yahoo and for the people who use yahoo games, so people are evidentally able to tolerate "bloated nightmares".

Applets have clunky startup/shutdown processes. That's their main problem. Aside from that, they duplicate the desktop experience quite accurately, unlike Ajax, which is a permanent kludge.

Plus, how else are we going to play Kid Icarus without applets:

http://www.davieboy.net/play/game.all.play.asp?rom=11.zip...

Tichy• 19 years ago

The user really doesn't care if you have to maintain your code on both client and server. Besides, even if you want to avoid that, you could always use JavaScript for both client and server.

Harj• 19 years ago

what % of users in this market do you think care whether their fantasy sports site uses a java applet or flash?

Alex3917• 19 years ago

Because all sports fans are dumb?

alaskamiller2• 19 years ago

Because when you're trying to pound down a nail, it doesn't matter what you use as a hammer.

mattmaroon10• 19 years ago

Every one who doesn't already have the JRE installed, which is a lot of people. Why raise the barrier to entry?

drubio• 19 years ago

Litigation in the making...

All the major sports leagues are notorious for protecting their brands and trademarks -- NFL, MLB, NHL,etc -- , simply look at the licensing deals some sites like Yahoo have needed to go through. And to top it off, they are mixing in virtual dollars (gambling) into the mix, which has been under fire recently in the U.S.

Its an untapped market for sure, but a snake-pit in litigation issues. May be the next YouTube you never know, but I doubt it, the sports leagues are more aware of the online world the movie studios.

mattmaroon10• 19 years ago

That battle has already been fought and won by another fantasy sports company. See CBC v. MLB.

tlrobinson• 19 years ago

I'm sorry, but no one has the right to compare themselves to Steve Jobs.

pg• 19 years ago

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=metaphor

dfranke• 19 years ago

Zinger thief!

http://reddit.com/info/wbt3/comments/cwc5a

koolmoe• 19 years ago

I think the Java vs. Flex debate is out of place here. The way Matt's comment re Java fits into the discussion has more to do with the amount of attention that most Fantasy Sports providers are giving to the domain. In that context, I think Matt is on the money. The big providers are not keenly focused on the problem. I'm an avid fantasy sports fan, and my experience has been far from optimal.

The killer part of the app is that it offers the ability to bet online and get quick gratification. Draftmix hits the action player's sweet spot, and I suspect apps in this area will drastically outperform their season-long counterparts. Anyone familiar with gambling economics knows that the action players and casual gamers drive the economy.

The argument about skill vs. chance in the comments of the TechCrunch article is interesting. I think it's easy to make a compelling argument that success in the short term format might require more skill than season long formats, but legislators have demonstrated that compelling arguments hold less value than one might think they should.

mattmaroon10• 19 years ago

I agree re: skill in short format leagues. What it would come down to, should we ever end up in court (which we're taking great pains to avoid) is convincing a jury that we meet whatever test their state applies to a game to determine if it is a game of skill or not.

We're staying away from states where that test is too stringent (i.e., many states ban games that involve any luck at all). In the ones in which we operate (39) the test is typically that luck is the predominant factor. We feel that given a large sample we can mathematically prove that a player can win over time regardless of luck. We're certainly seeing that so far.

greendestiny2• 19 years ago

How do those jurisdictions judge betting on the result of a match? Picking players on their teams likely performance would surely be a significant part of the game.

Although given that what you're doing isn't odds adjusted, it's probably not that great a comparison.

axod• 19 years ago

I'd agree about applets. They look ugly in the main, trying to make them not look ugly and out of place is very hard. Startup time is very slow, and they do stick out like a sore thumb saying "1990s! 1990s!"

If a website is slow, and looks ugly users are going to be less likely to use it.

ed• 19 years ago

"The rest of the group was laughing at how the article was focused around me, as if I created the whole site myself."

Matt you've got to learn to better appreciate your team, future Steve Jobs or not.

russ2• 19 years ago

It doesn't stop at non-appreciation. Matt literally beats team members when they can't get features completed on time. I can post my bruises to flickr if you want?

mattmaroon10• 19 years ago

Bitch, I told you, I only beat you because I love you.

nickb2• 19 years ago

Matt, how many hits did you get from being t'crunced? What's the return visitor rate?

mattmaroon10• 19 years ago

Actually, less than I got from here (by far). But I got a hell of a lot of random contact emails from people wanting to sell me stuff, wanting a job, wanting to explore a partnership, and potentially even to invest. Very odd.

nickb2• 19 years ago

Hehe... TC seems to attract a lot of weirdos :)

Crunched

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