Poll: Bay area startup founders/C*Os/early employees: how much do you work?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=700119

by rjurney • 17 years ago

47 55 17 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

rjurney18• 17 years ago

Thanks a lot :) Please keep the votes coming.

patio11• 17 years ago

Rather than asking for a quick survey, why don't you get ready to have the work/life balance discussion with your future employers. (If you are your future employer, this should be over really freaking quick.) Your situation will be your situation, regardless of what the average turns out to be.

I'm hardly a model of work/life balance (Japanese salaryman, hooo) but it was one of the big questions at my job interview. I asked "What time do my peers go home at this company?", and after some hemming and hawing the bosses told me "About nineish, usually." (9 to 9 x 5 = 60 hours, plus a 10 hour fudge factor because I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday and know what "usually" means.)

So I told them "There is a gap between what you expect as normal hours and what I expect as normal hours. I think that there is a workable arrangement for both sides between our two numbers. Will that be acceptable?"

They indicated that they valued my skillset a little more than slavish adherence to the company average schedule, and we've played give-and-take for the last two years. I work more than I would like to if I had my druthers, but not so much that I'm constantly miserable about it.

Incidentally, I am bootstrapping a startup in similar circumstances to yourself regarding "nights and weekends after long hours at the day job", and I have one bit of advice: be totally ruthless about using your time efficiently and if at any time you feel that you can't, clock out for the day and go enjoy life.

jnovek• 17 years ago

"be totally ruthless about using your time efficiently and if at any time you feel that you can't, clock out for the day and go enjoy life."

This is fantastic advice. Time spent sitting at the computer willing yourself to work when you're not in the mood is as -- if not more so -- personally draining as actually getting stuff done. Don't waste your valuable attention on half-assed work.

(Incidentally, I'm on HN right now b/c I'm ignoring my own advice. We have a new customer starting on the 15th, and I'm pushing out our current development release by then if it kills me.)

rjurney18• 17 years ago

Since the accident, I've gotten much more efficient at using my time effectively. I was unable to do much for a couple months, and it was terrifying. I also came to understand my mind better as it healed. As a result, I pretty much spend every waking minute that I'm not with my wife productively: consulting, working on my startup, or writing. Most everything else bores me now.

I think I'm probably 90% as smart as before the accident. However, I didn't use but 60% of my time productively before - I now use it much more productively, which results in a major net productivity gain :) I just have to restore sanity to my situation and I'll be much better off.

mixmax• 17 years ago

If you really want to get stuff done you shouldn't work 60 hour weeks, and certainly not 90 hour weeks.

The thing is that nobody can keep sharp and do sustainable good work for that long. You need breaks, you need outside friends, you need inspiration and you need time to think about what you're doing instead of just charging ahead and pulling hours.

It all sounds very impressive, but the results rarely are.

As an example, the two guys that wrote the V8 javascript engine for the Chrome browser worked between 35 and 40 hours a week out of a small cottage in the countryside. At five o clock they were home. And no weekend work. Yet they managed to pull off what is arguably the best javascript engine the world has yet seen, and did so in less than a year. Two guys.

They succeeded because they had time to think about what they were doing while they were having dinner, wandering in the woods or whatever two guys in a cottage do when they aren't working.

food• 17 years ago

was this cottage on Brokeback Mountain? kidding

drp• 17 years ago

Amen. I can't count the number of times I've solved a problem while walking somewhere or doing something completely unrelated to work.

There was an article about marketing on the front page of HN yesterday that said 'think smarter, not louder,' and I'd argue that working a 90 hour week for any reason is just thinking louder.

keefe4• 17 years ago

I don't think humans are so weak that they can't handle 60 hour weeks, but 90 is definitely too much. I agree very strongly with the overall idea of your post, but for me it is all about building the right kind of balance in my life so that I can have maximum productivity. For me, that is 70 hour weeks as a single fellow with a highly optimized life (premade meals, standardised routine etc)

rjurney18• 17 years ago

I completely agree - and that is what I am working towards.

wheels• 17 years ago

Everyone answers these things as if humans were completely homogenous. Some people can do math better than others; some people can run faster than others; some people can work longer than others.

Like most of these sorts of debates it mostly ends up being people justifying what they're already doing and comfortable with. Sure, there are studies, but they're about the median; startups are about the statistical outliers on one or more vectors.

nostrademons• 17 years ago

Something I wonder about: when you hear these stories about super-programmers who work normal 40 hour workweeks and yet do something really impressive in a year, is it because they're super talented or is it because they have this huge intellectual capital reserve from past experience they can draw upon?

For example, if you look at Lars Bak's resume, he started working on the Beta programming language in 1988. (For HN readers that aren't familiar with it, Beta was an exceptionally innovative language, and I'd highly recommend learning a bit about it.) Then he joined the Self team in 1991, where he did the first dynamic-optimizing JIT compiler. Then he worked on StrongTalk at Animorphic/Longview, and then was the engineering manager for HotSpot at Sun. He's spent 20 years working on basically nothing but optimizing VMs for dynamic languages - it's no wonder that he could kick out a dynamic JIT for JavaScript in a year.

Paul Buchheit once had a thread on FriendFeed about how long it takes to build a really cool project. It took him about 3 years for GMail, and Google was kicking around in Larry & Sergey's head for 3 years before they incorporated. That seems fairly typical for most Google products.

So while most successful people will say "Work reasonable hours and get enough sleep," I wonder how many of them are able to say that because they've already put in the hours necessary to attain mastery in a subject. Perhaps the solution is to optimize for rate of learning+retention: work as long as necessary to fully understand the subject, but quit when you feel you can't concentrate and remember things. Sometimes you can work for 15 hours and learn nothing, while sometimes you'll put in 3 mind-bending hours a day and learn tons.

dasil003• 17 years ago

Talent is going to be a much bigger variable than hours. When you work 80, 90, 100 hours a week you're hitting diminishing returns in a big way. Also, even at 40 hours a week, very few people achieve maximum efficiency every second from 9 to 5.

I think rather than worrying about hours, entrepreneurs and other people who want to be highly effective should worry about how to improve their skills and focus when they are at work. There's a way in which a 100-hour work week can become a scapegoat... if you fail to produce at least no one can say you weren't committed. However, if you are truly only interested in results, you need to step back and ask yourself objectively are you making the best choices or are you just trying to cover your ass? I realize that outside perceptions actually do matter a tremendous amount to business success, but the bottom line is that the best person to build something is not simply the person who is willing to work the longest hours.

neilk• 17 years ago

I think you have hit the nail on the head here.

Most of the blowout successes I'm aware of have had a long period of protection from competition while the founders became world-class experts in whatever it was they were doing. That could mean a period in academia, open source, or a long period of learning at some other company in the industry.

There are a few cases I know of where the founders were not experts, but in those cases it was because they stumbled onto a new market, so nobody else knew more than they did. And even then they were well prepared to exploit it, through related work.

Also: 40 hours a week is a LOT. If you don't fritter it away with meetings, office hours, coordinating with vendors, and so on.

flooha• 17 years ago

Enjoy your life. How long do you have your youth and health? The car accident was your wake up call, but it seems that maybe the impression wasn't big enough. When you're laying there dying will you be thinking of your wife or your startup? Yeah, it's cliche and a little harsh, but true nonetheless.

You said you are a consultant so maybe you can reduce your gigs and take a bit less cash in order to get some time back. Are you willing to sacrifice for that? Moving to the bay is going to make this more difficult due to the cost of living. If your wife isn't working, is she willing to do it to make up some of that lost $ to have more time with you?

Have you considered partnering to reduce the workload/decrease the time to market? Are you a hard core networking kind of guy that can go to the valley and make something happen? Despite the stigma, I don't believe going to the valley will magically make you or your startup successful. What are you really gaining by going there? I'm not dogging it...hell, if I didn't have kids, I'd move from Ohio to the bay in 1/2 a second. The surfing and lifestyle there may be worth having less money if you don't have to work more just to pay for the higher cost of living.

If you don't take time to enjoy your life, you won't really be happy, even if your startup is successful, unless that's the only thing you care about and it's where you actually derive all of your happiness. I don't think most people fall into that category.

Here's something that works for me...When you make time for your wife, even if it is only 1/2 hour, focus on her and really make the time count. Doing funny/special/dorky things for her will not only make up for the times when you have to or want to work more, she'll return it to you (assuming she's a good woman) and this will recharge your batteries in a way nothing else can. Well, it's true for me anyway. :)

rjurney18• 17 years ago

Thanks for taking the time to comment. I agree that health and youth should take priority - which is why I'm thinking of making the move. So I can have and enjoy both, in a place well suited to my lifestyle.

I have partnered to reduce workload. I think I am a hard-core networker that can make things happen, yes. When I run the numbers, I believe our cost of living would be approximately the same.

mcarlin3• 17 years ago

I think you're telling yourself that moving to the bay would be better for your marriage.

It sounds like your wife is trying to tell you staying and changing your lifestyle would be better for your marriage.

cedsav• 17 years ago

Perhaps I don't completely understand your reasoning, but I'd side with your wife. You're kidding yourself (or is it killing?!).

Why would your geographic location or the work habit of random strangers change who you are? What about taking some time off your bootstrapping startup until you can get on a healthier footing?

rjurney18• 17 years ago

I think I would be completely fine with capping my working hours to 60 a week at a single job. My question centers on whether that is acceptable to investors, employers, etc. If its not, then the valley probably isn't for me. I got a sense from some people out there that they work a lot more than 60 hours a week - but I'm not sure what is commonplace, or acceptable. So I'm trying to find out.

jjs• 17 years ago

That car accident should have been a wake-up call. Cut down your hours on either the consulting or the startup.

Work from home more. If your "client" doesn't like it, remind them of this: http://www.vanderbilt.edu/ocga/vupolicies/consulting/employe...

rjurney18• 17 years ago

I already work entirely from home, which is the ONLY reason my situation is even remotely workable. I probably should have mentioned this in the post.

robotarmy• 17 years ago

where ever you go - there you are.

It might be more important for you to focus on how to be more effective in the time that you do have - have you ever considered connecting with some sort of meditation program - this is your life man - it's not about how much you work - it's about what you choose and where you direct your limited time on this earth.

Sounds like you could learn to slow down.

rjurney18• 17 years ago

I used to do Vipassana for several hours a day, and look forward to taking that back up when I have one job.

DanielBMarkham• 17 years ago

I can't vote, so I'll comment :)

I'm the first person to recommend a life that is spent "poured into" something that's bigger than yourself.

Having said that, dude! You may be crossing the line into some kind of behavior problem. Just something to think about.

They say the definition of a problem is when you let something take over other areas of your life. If you're working 80+ hours a week (and I've done it) on a continual basis you don't have a rest of your life. Adding to that is this idea that somehow living in a different place is going to change your behavior? You may imagine those 5 days a week surfing now while you're in Atlanta, but when you get there you're going to be the same 80+ hour guy you are right now.

I wouldn't move -- at least if you think moving is going to fix this lifestyle thing. (I would move perhaps for other reasons though)

That's my totally uneducated and off-the-wall comment, fwiw.

rjurney18• 17 years ago

I've actually lived at the beach and surfed before - and as long as there were waves, I've found the time. Whats more - I have ZERO interest in working 80 hour weeks. Its just what I have to do right now to get anything done with my startup. Its not a normal thing for me, its terrible. I think I'm more likely to have a single job in the valley because they fund early stage startups there (here that mostly does not happen), and because there are all kinds of interesting jobs in big data I could get that would probably satisfy me.

I don't think California is magic - I just think it has a tech center at the beach - which suits my lifestyle :)

grinich• 17 years ago

(just my thoughts. sorry if they sound pushy.)

Take a 1 week vacation without your laptop or cell phone. Go backpacking or something. Lay on a beach. Sounds like you're wrapped up in a lot of different things. Cool off before making a decision.

SF would be great, especially for startups. You can drop in at a pub and chat with a dozen other entrepreneurs over a pint as often as you wish. But moving to SF isn't going to make you work less (or more). Thats something only you can control.

Ultimately, if a change will make you healthier and happier, it's a good one to make.

And one more thing-- One thing I noticed during the week we were there: I was able to get a whole lot done during the working day, and after that... I did not want to talk about or think about work.

Being around other startups is really validating. You probably felt satisfied with your work because you knew that others around you were up doing the same. There's something that just feels good about waking up early on a saturday morning and going to a coffee shop to hack on your laptop with a dozen other bootstrappers. Humans are communal.

rjurney18• 17 years ago

I actually did a one week trip to silicon valley where I had a lot of relaxing fun. It was work, but not 'work' work - I was doing research for writing, and my wife was my camera-lady. I can't much afford another vacation right now.

You're absolutely right about the communal thing.

I don't think SF will make me work less. I think I could have an interesting single job there - that would satisfy my intellectual needs and my financial needs, either as a founder or an early employee of a startup.

apinstein2• 17 years ago

Working a job and doing a startup is unsustainable, no matter where you are. Work/life balance is the same problem no matter where you are.

Yeah the valley is different, and ideas get funded easier and even dumb ideas get funded. Funding != success, so don't delude yourself into thinking that just because you can go out there and get funded you magically succeed or don't have to worry about money anymore. Maybe you have a decent salary for 2-3 years and get to "live the dream" but if it doesn't work out then you're pretty much back where you started.

I went through the wringer at 25 and it was my wake up call, and I heeded it.

If you want a good lifestyle, then make that your #1 priority. Working 80 hours a week for a long time leads to only one eventuality that often includes burnout, sickness, divorce, and unhappiness.

I know it's a tough pill to swallow, but sometimes an idea just isn't achievable given current circumstances. Working alone on something that requires 2 man-years to even "test out" is gonna be painful.

You have to either agressively cut scope, or better yet find an early customer and have them fund your work. Work with nature, not against it.

As for moving and getting funded... just a few thoughts:

If you get funded, it's no longer your company. The constant pressure of progress from the guys with money pretty much guarantees stress, anxiety, and indentured servitude as you haul ass to try out your idea. Remember who the VC industry serves; investors and the VC firms. While you do get something out of it (money), they aren't there to serve you. They are there to make money.

That's why all of my startups since I went through the wringer have been bootstrapped. I (or a small group of partners) own 100%. We have control. Even if we're 1/5 as successful as if we raised VC, the end result is the same b/c we own it all. If we need to grow, then we can borrow cheap "cash-flow" money instead of expensive "can I try my idea" money.

Frankly I am waiting for my first big success before trying my "big ideas" that require more up-front money and risk. It just doesn't align with my lifestyle priorities to try such an idea from my current circumstances.

Now I am sure that there are examples of companies that have great relationships with VC's, but it's probably more rare than common.

In my current startup I do work a lot, but I see my wife and daughter, hang out with friends, I exercise reguarly, cook dinner 2x a week, work in the yard and generally enjoy life.

We are learning, growing, and succeeding. We're already a success in my mind, and isn't that what you're looking for?

Hope the rambling was helpful.

rjurney18• 17 years ago

It is helpful, Alan and thank you for taking the time.

Having a good lifestyle is important to me, which is why I am considering the move. I feel like my location does not suit my lifestyle. In life I've found three things I deeply care about so far: my wife, startups, and surfing. There I could have all three. I can't really understate the surfing part... when I surf regularly, I am a much better person. I calm down deep inside. It also keeps me in shape in a way nothing else ever has.

I don't think that moving to the Valley will automatically mean funding, or success. I'm a strong advocate of customer development, and I totally agree about scoping a product to fit your resources. I think that if you have a solid product concept grounded in a real, confirmable market need that you can build a startup anywhere. What I mean is: if startups are important to me, maybe I should be in the place that is most supportive of them? I'm 29, and I have no wealth to speak of because I spent it starting companies. I don't want to be 39 in the same situation... so maybe I should stack the deck in every way that I can. As you point out - most valley companies still fail.

As to VC... I don't want any, unless I'm in a high-growth situation where I can get a valuation the lets us retain control. Angel money is more interesting. But I believe in creating and growing revenue from day one - and we're doing that.

skmurphy• 17 years ago

In life I've found three things I deeply care about so far: my wife, startups, and surfing.

Why not pick wife, surfing, and one 40-50 hour a week job. Start a family. Start your company in your late 40's early 50's with some partners--there are a lot of people who become entrepreneurs at that age. In the interim save your money and your health. I worry that your current "stopping rule" from work is disabling injury.

TheSOB88• 17 years ago

Something that I haven't seen mentioned: working a day job and living extremely frugally for a coupla years, then using the savings to fund your venture. You've already started your company, but perhaps it would be better in the long run to stop now and start again in a few years. It'd sure give you time to think about your ideas.

apinstein2• 17 years ago

If surfing is that important to you, your health, and your sanity, then I'd say move. Regret is painful!

But just don't straddle startup + job for too long (more than 6 months). It just doesn't work. A startup without full time effort is practically a waste of time. It won't get the attention it deserves and is much more likely to stall out. Plus it really sucks to straddle like that.

The other commenter about the super-frugal approach is pretty good advice. That's essentially what I've done 3x now. One right out of college with a monthly burn of ~$1000. Once after .com crash in NYC with a burn of about $2000. And once when I was single in Atlanta, about the same. $24k will get you a year of startup time at those kinds of burn rates. If after a year you can't generate cash flow for expenses or borrow against a strong pipeline then it's time to move on anyway.

Also, don't do it alone. Ever. Just not a good idea. 2+ people minimum, 1 biz and 1 dev.

keefe4• 17 years ago

I have been working full time and working on my startup for over a year now. I think the most important thing for you to consider is the concept of diminishing returns. How productive are you in hours 0-70 vs hours 70-90? I spent a lot of my time living inefficiently and churning rather than optimising my lifestyle. Do you really need to do all that consulting or can you reduce your expenses and work less? I also believe that productivity is a function of our emotional, intellectual and physical selves. Being physically exhausted and emotionally stressed will not let your intellectual self work as effectively. I think about it as a marathon, not a sprint. I work 10 hour days, every single day. I exercise, every single day. My schedule is relative, where 0:00 is wakeup time :

0:00 - Wake, breakfast, email, news, exercise, transport to work if necessary. 1:30 - Work shift 1 (4 hrs) 5:30 - Lunch Break 6:30 - Work Shift 2 (4 hrs) 10:30 - Dinner Break 11:30 - Work Shift 3 (2 hrs) Usually meta, planning work.

When things are extremely busy, I will do a final shift of 2 hours instead of 4 hours. I think writing software, particularly as the principle of a startup, is a creative effort and my observation on writing code is that it is about avoiding errors, not churning code. I am a bit disturbed by your tone throughout this post. I suggest you take 4 days off to rest, relax with your wife and plan out a meal, exercise and work plan that will lead to maximum productivity. Remember, you are a human being not a software writing robot! You need balance in your life or there's no point in living it and I think once you are balanced, you will find you are actually more productive, even if you work less hours. Writing software is not like building tables, you know? You need insight, not throughput. For me, coding is 90% contemplating 10% coding the final solution.

rjurney18• 17 years ago

I do consider the diminishing returns. I consult a lot because of the hole I dug myself into financially in my last startup, not because I want to. When I'm done with that, the only way to get to work on my startup is to rack up the hours.

keefe4• 17 years ago

So, maybe the right thing to do is concentrate on solving your financial problems and only do high level planning on your startup? I found myself in a similar situation and have been working for a couple years to shore up finances before doing the big push on my work. I knew that I couldn't work a full time job and do top notch creative work, so I simply put myself in tool sharpening mode and waited it out. I feel that in the end, my final result in a long term view is going to be much more favorable with this extensive preparatory period than if I had attempted to serve two masters during this time.

ackkchoo• 17 years ago

I no longer live in the Bay Area (am in Los Angeles now), but, as an avid surfer and entrepreneur as well thought I'd chime in with some comments.

First off, I agree with a lot of the comments here. Living in a new place isn't going to magically cause you to work less or more. This is largely based on your own mentality, regardless of location. There is always going to be more work to do, no matter where you live, if you want to work 90 hour weeks. You have to set your own limits and stick to them; geography isn't going to change that for you.

If surfing is important to you, and it's something that gets you away from the office multiple times a week, you should seriously consider moving to somewhere closer to the beach. Especially if your health is suffering otherwise, and you want to be in decent physical or mental shape to continue doing it for the rest of your life.

rjurney18• 17 years ago

Thanks. Yeah, the surfing part is important. Half Moon Bay, Pacifica and Santa Cruz are a big part of my reasoning.

Sudarshan• 17 years ago

it would be interesting 2 see how geeks round upto the 5s and how many to the tens ;-)

abstractbill• 17 years ago

Here are a few random thoughts and experiences of my own:

When I started at justin.tv, as hire #2, I worked frankly hellish hours. It was self-imposed, but everyone else was doing it too, and I'm pretty certain they expected it from me as much as I expected it from myself. My wife was amazingly supportive. For nearly a year, we saw each other for about half an hour each day on weekdays, and maybe an hour each day on the weekends. I didn't and don't begrudge having done this. Justin.tv wouldn't be where it is now if we hadn't all done that (but of course maybe I would begrudge it if we hadn't had some degree of success - who knows?).

That life is not sustainable for more than a couple of years though. I don't do it anymore, not to the same extent. I do still spend more time in the office than most of my friends who aren't at startups, and I'm always on-call (I carry a cell phone, netbook and EVDO card with me - I can always be online within about 10 minutes). I also spend an inordinate amount of time just thinking about work when I'm not doing it. But I don't spend ridiculous amounts of time in the office anymore. I work from home when I need to - I've found periodically changing my work environment stops me from burning out.

I'm also spending some time getting healthy - I took up running at the start of the year. While it's certainly true that the bay area can encourage incredibly hard work, I've found it can also encourage very healthy living - a lot depends who you hang-out with.

rjurney18• 17 years ago

Thanks, this is very helpful.

gruseom• 17 years ago

It seems obvious that your immediate problem is coming from trying to have both a job and a startup (and a marriage). That's really hard and, in the long run, insane. If you're as much of a startup guy as you say, your only way to restore sanity is to drop the consulting and just do a startup. The minute you do that, the structural contradiction in your work life will be resolved. Things won't become easy but at least you'll feel they're doable. That was my experience at least.

Where are you going to have the best chance of doing that?

It's difficult to tell from your writeup what your wife's concerns really are. She may be right that you're kidding yourself. People do that all the time, imagining that a change of scene will fix their problems when, as Johnny Rotten sang, "The problem is YOU", i.e. the problem is within you and only self-honesty and growth can prevent you from simply recreating it in a new location. If she's like most wives, she knows things about you that you don't know. I'd use that as a resource by getting her to talk about exactly why she thinks you're kidding yourself and what she would need to see to change that opinion.

I was going to add that it's also possible that she just doesn't want to move and is coming up with arguments to defend that. But your description makes it sound like that isn't the case. If so, you're luckier than most guys in your position; what are you waiting for?

One other thing leaps out at me: The main issue many people bring up is cost. Could there be a dumber way to look at this? What's more important, a few hundred dollars a month or your sanity, health and happiness? It seems to me that people who offer this sort of analysis are the ones who have freeze-dried their own souls and want everyone else to do the same. But I'm probably jumping to conclusions.

rjurney18• 17 years ago

I agree about the overload/sanity. My best chance of dropping the consulting is, without a doubt, in silicon valley. There is an entrepreneurial-supportive environment there that I feel would greatly increase my odds. The biggest upside, however, is the jobs I can get in between my own startups - if I never do succeed. I can get really interesting work in Silicon Valley that I can't get here - which means I'll be less apt to start a company just to have something interesting to work on. I'll be able to channel my creative juices into a more interested job.

abossy• 17 years ago

If you do decide to move to the Bay Area, I encourage you to join us at Hackers and Founders. It's like Hacker News, but in real life!

http://www.meetup.com/Hackers-and-Founders/

I recently led a discussion at Bootstrapper's Breakfast--another great meetup--regarding balancing work and "life."

http://www.bootstrappersbreakfast.com/

These are only two of the many, many sub-communities built around the startup scene in the Bay Area. In short, I don't have enough experience to provide useful advice, but there is probably a much stronger "support" circle in the Bay Area than outside of Atlanta for people like us. It may not be home for you, but I'm sure it'll feel like it.

mcarlin3• 17 years ago

Hey bossy :-)

There's also Super Happy Dev House: http://superhappydevhouse.org/

... but I would still encourage you to continue asking if this is what you want to do with your life before thinking too much about how you would go about doing it.

rdouble• 17 years ago

If you want to surf, move to Santa Cruz. There are more breaks for various skill levels and they are easy to get to. Pacifica is an easy break for beginners but there's only one, and there isn't much to the town. Half Moon Bay has even less of a town, is far away from everything, and has no beginner breaks.

My advice is probably controversial because Santa Cruz is far away from the action and considered weird, but I was much happier when I lived there than when I lived in San Francisco. It's not too bad of a commute from SC to places like Cupertino, especially if you are used to Atlanta traffic.

evgen• 17 years ago

Yeah, the commute isn't bad unless some idiot wipes out at the summit on 17 :)

I would have to second your recommendation of Santa Cruz if surfing is a priority. Unlike Pacifica or Half Moon Bay there is actually a "there" there when you compare SC to the other two locations. There is even a bit of local tech so the possibility of not needing to commute exists. In my previous startup I had three employees who commuted from SC to Mountain View and all of us were pleased with the arrangement. One other advantage of SC is that if your wife does not work she is less likely to go insane from boredom in SC.

mcarlin3• 17 years ago

You're right. What you're doing is not sustainable.

Your wife has stayed with you through 84 hour work weeks, a car crash, brain damage, and pills. All indications are that she's an amazing woman and that you're lucky to have her.

So, do what your wife wants. Stop worrying about entrepreneurship. Just... do whatever she wants. She's much more important than any business you've ever had, have now, or could have in the future.

rjurney18• 17 years ago

She is an amazing woman: My wife knows me well enough to know that entrepreneurship is part of who I am, and that I'm miserable without it. I tried to give it up - we moved to the beach and I focused on surfing. We moved to the country and I focused on farming. Both times I got extremely bored and wound up working on a startup.

Giving up who I am is not a good basis of a marriage. Thats why I talk about changing things so that they are sustainable.

ajju• 17 years ago

Whatever you do Russ, if you make a switch, don't switch to another instance of startup+dayjob. I strongly believe it is that which is killing you. I have been doing that for a while and I constantly feel like I am cheating on one or more of my commitments in life. I used to do 80 hour weeks at my startup job too but it wasn't half as stressful as this is. Now I work 7 days a week. Had it no been for a super understanding wife (who works with me on weekends!) I'd be nowhere. There are other complications for me in switching to doing the startup full time, but I am switching as soon as I can.

So assuming you take that advice, your choices are full time job at a startup or your own startup in Atlanta vs full time job at a startup or your own startup in the bay area. In the bay area you'll get surfing and a higher chance of funding - which, while not the same thing as success as @apinstein pointed out, is certainly a step in that direction.

My advice to you is to switch to the bay area. Work wise, doing a job at a very early stage startup vs doing a startup will entail the same number of hours - what to do is up to your appetite for risk right now but at least you'll be at a place where you can be fit doing something that is fun and if/when you start a startup - get funding for it. If you work at slightly more established startup (50-100) employees, it will likely be closer to 60 hrs/weeks

Having said that, all of us here won't be happy to lose you to CA...

startupcomment• 17 years ago

I am very sorry to have heard about your accident. As has already been pointed out, your job / startup combination would be difficult to sustain anywhere. As for the work environment in SF Bay Area, while I do not live there, I have heard that work-related demands can be higher there than other parts of the country. But much depends on one's circumstances. If you are a founder of a startup or owner of a small business, you generally should expect to work long hours, regardless of where you may be located.

trevelyan• 17 years ago

Get rid of your commute. It sounds like 10 hours a week at least. Moving to a different part of the country and repeating the same mistake won't help.

jacquesm• 17 years ago

You are heading straight for a burnout. Now, you're obviously a smart fellow, my only question to you is why ?

Poll: Bay area startup founders/C*Os/early employees: how much do you work?

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