Soylent: An Offbeat Food Idea Investors Are Taking Seriously

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/10/23/240278034/soylent-an-offbeat-food-idea-investors-are-taking-seriously

by mrleinad • 13 years ago

34 61 13 years ago

scrabble3• 13 years ago

I think this idea will appeal to people who can't eat -- such as those with cancer -- as an alternative to products like Boost and Ensure.

I can't see myself or any of the people I know replacing food with a drink, but I definitely see room in the meal replacement market.

Best of luck to Soylent.

DanBC3• 13 years ago

as an alternative to products like Boost and Ensure.

You specifically mention people with medical needs: What does Soylent do that isn't done by existing meal replacements? What extras does Soylent bring? Or is it just nice to see more products in that segment?

I guess with the investment Soylent could employ qualified dietitians or nutritionists to write information for medical professionals, and to answer questions from medical professionals.

vannevar• 13 years ago

Soylent is the Kim Kardashian of meal replacements: it is famous for being famous. There is literally nothing else to distinguish it from the dozens of other meal replacements that make extravagant health claims.

scrabble3• 13 years ago

In recent history I've had multiple family members suffer from long, drawn out illnesses ending in death. In these cases they generally get tired of what they're drinking and don't want to drink it anymore.

It's nice to see more products in that segment for people in that state, so there's the possibility of more variety because I feel like people with medical needs have additional desires from their food/drink other than just being sustained.

Cthulhu_• 13 years ago

I don't know Boost / Ensure, but given how they seem to be (based on the parent) sold as a medical food replacement, I can imagine they're rather expensive.

I wouldn't call Soylent cheap, though - $65 a week for one person is quite a lot if you're on a tight budget, and it doesn't scale to family-size who can be cheaper off by buying and cooking food in bulk. Wouldn't feed my kids slop like this either tbh (and I'm pretty sure that they would rebel (if I had them and tried to feed them this for any duration of time)).

confluence5• 13 years ago

The key thing that Soylent is going after is Ensure/Fortsip/Sustagen's margins. Full meal replacements are cost competitive with normal food at $5 a day. Medical suppliers currently charge a steep markup of $14 a day for their full meal replacements. At this price it is uneconomical for most people to adopt full meal replacements as a large part of their diets.

These margins must be destroyed. Soylent, and its competitors, are out to destroy them.

Full meal replacements will only hit critical mass if they cost less than the $7 a day an average American already spends on normal food, and if they are easier to prepare, eat and store. They need to taste nicer too.

The first part is the hardest bit. $6 a day is the current mean cost of full meal replacement production in small batch sizes. Large batch sizes and huge volumes can probably half this cost through economies of scale. Once we have at volume, non-regulated full meal replacements that cost $3 a day, with say a 20-50% gross margin, I expect the entire market to explode.

First one to market wins.

DanBC3• 13 years ago

These margins must be destroyed

Are those real margins, or are those the costs of sensible operation in a safety critical regulated marketplace?

It is currently not economical for most people to adopt at the steep mark up of $14 a day that medical suppliers currently charge.

You Americans and your weird healthcare. Just checking - how do you work out that price of $14 per day? I don't doubt it, these things are expensive and something to make it cheaper is a good thing.

confluence5• 13 years ago

Are those real margins, or are those the costs of sensible operation in a safety critical regulated marketplace?

For late stage cancer patients it sure might be the case that the margins are deserved. But for healthy adults this might not be the case.

It really isn't that hard to measure basic powders and mix them together, nor is it that expensive to QA one's methods. Cost per day should approach cost of production per day in competitive commodity markets. The fact that this is not the case is due to some kind of market distortion, whether that is unserviced market need, human diet biases, oligopoly dynamics or regulatory barriers.

how do you work out that price of $14 per day?

People need 2,000 kcal per day. Ensure nutritionally complete powder's serving size is 250 calories. Hence you need 8 servings per day to hit 2,000 kcal. A 7 serving can costs $13.71 on Amazon, which is $1.958 per serving, or $15.66 for a full day's needs. If you buy in bulk with a 6 can pack, cost per can is $10.83, giving $1.547 per serving, or $12.377 per day.

Sources:

1 can; http://www.amazon.com/Ensure-Nutrition-Powder-Vanilla-Flavor...

6 can pack: http://www.amazon.com/Ensure-Complete-Balanced-Nutrition-Van...

adrianm• 13 years ago

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers - but a four pack of Ensure Complete can be had for ~$9 or less. It's not the cheapest thing in the world, but I can comfortably drink three for breakfast, lunch, and midday snack and have a regular, home cooked dinner and still keep daily food intake cost below $15.

confluence5• 13 years ago

Normal at home prepared food is about half that cost.

jpau• 13 years ago

Speaking as an Australian, I'm surprised that the average American spends as little as $7 per day on food. Do you know who compiled this statistic, and what a 'typical' $7 day's diet might look like?

fennecfoxen• 13 years ago

I don't know who compiled that statistic, but I can show you the USDA statistics!

* http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/usdafoodcost-home.htm

* http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/USDAFoodPlansCostofFood.htm

whichdan• 13 years ago

Cost of living varies greatly around the US. In Boston, $7 for a "good" lunch is pretty average, and can easily reach $10-12 if you aren't careful. If you shop anywhere except Whole Foods and cook everything yourself, $7 a day is a little more reasonable, if not limiting.

mjn• 13 years ago

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics (which tracks household expenditures), the average "consumer unit" in 2012 spent $6,599/year on food for 2.5 people, of which $3,921 on groceries, and $2,678 on eating out. That works out to to about $7.25/person/day, of which $4.30 groceries and $2.95 eating out.

Source: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm

pothibo2• 13 years ago

Normal food at 5$ a day? Not sure which part of the world you live in, but if it's in North America/Europe I call b.s without evidence.

You can't run on Ensure/Fortsip/Sustagen's only without having consequences.

confluence5• 13 years ago

See here: http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/FoodPlans/2013/CostofF..., thanks to HN user fennecfoxen

andzt• 13 years ago

One of the ideas I want to find out by trying Soylent is: What happens when hunger is no longer an issue? Will I still crave juicy burgers and fries everday at 12pm? Will I really be satisfied by only eating small bites if I'm already full off Soylent? I definitely see myself using this on days where I'm just too busy to run out for lunch, early morning breakfasts, or as good healthy travel food. Not sure I'll replace my whole diet.

What a cool experiment though...

seg• 13 years ago

I reckon you'd be dreaming about food in the Homer Simpson style for a while, until you get utterly accustomed to the new diet. I call that the brainwashing of the stomach. (because stomach-washing sound weird)

ufo• 13 years ago

According to a fiend of mine, Soylent doesn't change you hunger patterns. You still get hungry around lunchtime and then its just a matter of whether you choose to eat a regular meal or a prepare a Soylent shake.

hmsimha2• 13 years ago

Given the abundance of links about Soylent that get posted to HN, I can't believe this point hasn't been brought up yet:

Calcium.

Studies have shown it blocks the absorption of Iron and Zinc. At least one even indicates that the combination of all three taken together can be quite detrimental[1]

I'm not a nutritionist, and I'm not even arguing against the possibility that a Soylent diet may be much healthier than the average American diet. I don't have a wealth of other examples where nutrients being taken together at the same time could be less than ideal.

But I do believe that these are questions that the people involved in Soylent should have concerned themselves with before even entertaining the idea of an all-purpose one-size-fits-all meal replacement. I haven't seen this addressed, and it boggles my mind that so many seemingly intelligent people are eager to pay for the opportunity to be guinea pigs of a meal replacement powder that could very well be harmful in the long run.

[1] (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20486142?uid=3739960&u...)

RunningDroid• 13 years ago

They are aware that Calcium blocks the absorption of Iron[1], and that it blocks absorption of manganese, magnesium, zinc, fluoride, and phosphorus.[2] The people making Soylent are testing the mix on themselves first, and having blood tests done regularly to make sure they aren't harming themselves in the long run.

[1] http://discourse.soylent.me/t/interaction-of-for-instance-ir...

[2] http://discourse.soylent.me/t/micronutrients-blocking-each-o...

hmsimha2• 13 years ago

I'm glad to see I'm not the first person to consider the interaction, but (correct me if I'm wrong) none of the people addressing this are actually involved with the development of Soylent, right?

And yes, I realize there are people getting blood tests. The human body can be surprisingly resilient, and whether or not the deficiency is in iron or something else, it may take a long time to present. My main objection is to them marketing this essentially as a beta release of an end-user product already.

If the purpose behind all the testing were to explore whether a meal replacement like Soylent might be a viable method of maintaining peak human nutrition, with years of planned research before jumping to conclusions, I would be all for it. But it seems as if they've already presumed that an all-in-one formula CAN be engineered to provide for a healthy diet, and are focusing exclusively on arriving at the optimal balance of nutrients to deliver.

Qom• 13 years ago

Silence, traitor!

netcan2• 13 years ago

I'm not sure if there's something I'm missing about soylent, but it seems to me like the most remarkable thing in the soylent story is that the company is a product of the tech startup culture.

The product itself fits (in my mind) in the nutritional supplements / meal replacements category and wouldn't have ordinarily gotten the attention of HN and startup investors.*

I wonder if this is an anomaly or first blood. Maybe startup culture is spreading to other areas. Startups haven't themselves been necessarily creators of technology (tricky to define). Many are just something that is enabled by mass adoption of some new technology or the cultural shifts that came with it (eg cloud based enterprise software). The whole world seems to be changing fairly rapidly now. That means there might be room for startup-culture to infiltrate even more areas. Tech savy, risk tolerant, big vision, funded, etc.

*I've got nothing to say about the product itself really. I like eating, personally.

ihsw• 13 years ago

I think this could successfully be marketed to developing countries as a food ration/field ration -- the cost per KG is quite high but it's far superior to other rations.

Imagine if naval explorers of yore had Soylent instead of cured/canned meats.

Canadian military field ration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Meal_Pack

American military field ration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meal,_Ready-to-Eat

Mikeb852• 13 years ago

While I haven't been in the military, I do alot of backpacking. IMPs are quite tasty, and a welcome meal. Can't say I'd rather have a meal replacement shake after being in the wild for a week...

sharkweek• 13 years ago

I think startup culture is breaking into a lot of other spaces, and that's where the press is coming from --

I think of YC alumns like FlightCar who, while sure there's a technology element in how they organize (but what company doesn't have this), are certainly not a "tech" startup -- they're just a good idea.

ekianjo2• 13 years ago

As a product of the tech startup culture, I prefer talking about ZeroCater. At least, they provide real food.

criley23• 13 years ago

How is a personal convenience meal replacement system comparable to a B2B catering service?

ZeroCater doesn't cater individual meals to individuals with the goal of improving meals of convenience, which we have a habit of relying on processed and fast foods for.

It's a tool for businesses to cater popular food to their employees.

chroem• 13 years ago

I think you may be confusing the term "tech startup" with "web development startup."

This isn't inspired by tech startups, it is a tech startup. It bothers me how people equate technology with the web. I guess the Saturn V was a useless piece of crap because it didn't use the latest web stack.

netcan2• 13 years ago

I don't think I am.

Technology is a tricky word (is twitter a new technology?) to define clearly, even for a limited context. We got used to lumping together companies creating technologies with those building on big new technologies like the internet. So, an online store could still be called a tech startup (or dotcom or web startup)

But, imagine this exact same product coming from a company similar to one of the existing nutritional supplement companies. Would you call it a tech startup?

We're dealing with subjective definitions obviously, but I think this is substantially different. One thing that stands out is that there is no good answer to the question "why now?"

Mikeb852• 13 years ago

This is unfortunate. Food can be a cultural experience, it brings people together, and tasty, well-prepared food is one of life's great pleasures. Reducing food to merely taking care of physical needs (presumably so we can work more hours) is a shame...

Edit - missed some parts of the article - seems it's more in the quick meal-replacement shake category, not to outright replace easting. Either way, I'll take real food.

bluedino• 13 years ago

You don't have to only consume Soylent. You could do it 2 meals a day and still enjoy dinner with friends.

27182818284• 13 years ago

It isn't unfortunate at all because it is a choice. If you don't want it, don't buy it?

There are some people very un-interested in cooking and would just like to not die. Soylent seems like a solution for those people. A former coworker of mine was ready to immediately throw down his credit card for something like Soylent. Before Soylent, he often lamented that the "Bachelor Chow" from Futurama wasn't real.

MrDosu4• 13 years ago

People that cannot produce a nutritous tasty meal for under 3 dollars within a few minutes need to take a cooking class, not get fed brown powder.

nightshowerer• 13 years ago

I mostly agree, but "within a few minutes"? I think you're underestimating a bit. It does take time and effort (which is, for sure, not wasted).

MrDosu4• 13 years ago

I totally agree that cooking can take significantly longer then "a few minutes", but there is plenty to be had in terms of a quick meal. For me the most worrying part is when the creator of the supplement is stated to have no time for meal preparation due to his work. It is ok to just eat a quick sandwich or a joghurt/fruit combo every once in a while, but if you cant spend some time on proper meals your life is going in a very wrong direction.

6d0debc0713• 13 years ago

People that cannot produce a nutritous tasty meal for under 3 dollars within a few minutes

-shrug- Assuming the brown powder thing works out, why would I want to? It's not like I've ever got much pleasure from eating.

nodata2• 13 years ago

Then you need to eat better food!

scrabble3• 13 years ago

If this is the case, why haven't you replaced the food you eat with currently available meal replacement shakes?

MrDosu4• 13 years ago

You are defintely missing out. Food and it's preparation is without a doubt one of the things that lead us humans to develop the tool making abilities that make us what wwe are today. Food has always been the most primal and important cultural aspect of any epoch in our history. It can be hard to get into when you have not been properly introduced to food culture (e.g. your mother fed you a TV dinner and a passive cigarette every evening), but it is one of THE aspects of being human.

fein• 13 years ago

My greatest concern over the approach Soylent is taking is the "one size fits all" mentality.

If the company would put forth an application for biometrics/ some sort of personalized formula calculation, I would feel better about this.

People have different biochemistry, allergies, metabolisms, and nutrient deficiencies. Hell, even different climates and geography cause changes in the way the human body works. It just seems like a huge issue was overlooked in not taking into consideration these variables.

I have a friend whose SO and himself are working on a similar project, however she is a nutritionist and knows the pitfalls. They are trying to take into account the person to person variability and make personalized formulas based on individual needs. I would be much happier with this approach.

pa5tabear• 13 years ago

It's not going to be one size fits all. Right now it might just be a single product (and they're struggling to even get that together at large volume), but Rob's blog posts talk about customization as a key advantage of Soylent. Customization will surely come if they're able to get the ball rolling.

tinco• 13 years ago

"One of the fundamental appeals of Soylent is its potential for individualized nutrition, and from the beginning we have envisioned a future where anyone can order a Soylent blend customized for their specific nutritional needs."

herge• 13 years ago

I imagine the poor sod who invented the shower just got blank stares for the first 5 years from people who wondered 'why would I ever give up taking baths?'.

criley23• 13 years ago

That's actually a great analogy. A shower is a bath of convenience, but doesn't replace the bath of luxury.

Soylent is a meal of convenience, but it doesn't replace the meal of luxury...

wdewind• 13 years ago

Soylent hasn't really invented anything new. Meal replacement shakes have existed for years. It's unclear how Soylent is different.

Soylent: An Offbeat Food Idea Investors Are Taking Seriously

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