Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html

by kamaal • 13 years ago

300 118 13 years ago

kyberias• 13 years ago

I'm way too lazy while idling to read this. tl;dr?

kamaal4• 13 years ago

As automation increases and we have machines do most of our work. We don't seem to put that saved time into leisure. We rather seem to use that saved time to do more work.

Humans aren't too happy with every one getting the same, even if that is sufficient for every one's sustenance. We inevitable use our time to buy things that distinguish us from other fellow humans.

The theme was also propagated in the novel 1984,concept of equality among humans was/is going to be a big disaster.

arethuza2• 13 years ago

From what I recall of the Party in 1984 (at least the Inner Party) they had no illusions about them holding power to benefit anyone else:

"The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know what no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."

[NB I find the natural antidote to this to be the speech from the end of The Great Dictator http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IvPIWzQcUY]

AimHere• 13 years ago

The theme was also propagated in the novel 1984,concept of equality among humans was/is going to be a big disaster.

Not at all. If you want to mention an anti-egalitarian novel, Harrison Bergeron is probably the one to pick.

Orwell was very definitely big on equality and socialism - In one of his essays, circa World War 2, he even proposed a maximum wage!

1984 was largely a critique of Stalinist totalitarianism (and post-war British austerity) rather than a criticism of socialism itself. In fact, one of his problems with Stalin (as well as the previously-mentioned totalitarianism) was that Stalin was a counterrevolutionary who crushed the egalitarian revolution going on in Spain during the Civil war - Orwell was fighting alongside a Trotskyite militia at the time and recounted his ideas in Homage to Catalonia. Orwell was to the left of Stalin, if anything.

Orwell's socialism is certainitely the main thread throughout all of his work, but unfortunately his two most famous works - Animal Farm and 1984 - because they happen to be attacks on the Soviet Communist Party, are often erroneously read as attacks on socialism.

aleh• 13 years ago

Humans aren't too happy with every one getting the same. We inevitable use our time to buy things that distinguish us from other fellow humans.

IMHO this is cultural, not biological phenomenon. In developed countries, especially US, people are pretty much being brainwashed to 'think different and buy X'.

Yes, inequality is inevitable to some extent, however it is often artificially promoted for its own sake.

RyanMcGreal• 13 years ago

If so, I shall not have lived in vain.

Notwithstanding that small matter of formally defining the logical foundations of all mathematics.

keithpeter• 13 years ago

Well, having a good bash at that particular problem. Not sure if Russell and Whitehead actually succeeded.

"Work is of two kinds: first, altering the position of matter at or near the earth's surface relatively to other such matter; second, telling other people to do so. The first kind is unpleasant and ill paid; the second is pleasant and highly paid."

I've always liked that quote.

singularity2001• 13 years ago

third, telling computers what to do, which is partly unpleasant but highly paid.

TeMPOraL2• 13 years ago

How does programming fit into this? It feels a bit in-between. On the one hand, you tell the computer what to do, in a way that feels similar to Type 2; on the other hand, you actually have to do the work of programming, which feels much like Type 1, except you're not moving physical matter around, but stuff in 'concept space'.

kasperbn3• 13 years ago

Actually, Gödel proved that no such foundation exists.

cliffbean• 13 years ago

Gödel proved that the foundation can't be complete (without being inconsistent), but it can still be useful.

parasight• 13 years ago

It is rather strange. More and more things of everyday life are automated and computerized. Nevertheless, I have the impression to have less and less time to do all the things I want/need to do.

Swizec2• 13 years ago

I have noticed the same. Then I remembered the internet makes my day feel like running with a parachute.

Sure, I could just get up and go make lunch when I'm hungry. But I could also just refresh HN first. I think it takes a second, it actually takes 10 minutes. Especially if I reply to something.

Sure I could just get home from exercise and start working. But I can also check out imgur and twitter first. I feel liek it takes 5 minutes, but it's actually half an hour.

I have all this leisure time that I am being leisurely, but it doesn't feel leisurely. It feels like a rush to quickly pack more stuff in between work.

kamaal4• 13 years ago

>I have all this leisure time that I am being leisurely, but it doesn't feel leisurely.

This happens to me too.

I wonder its because we are using the same tools for work and leisure. I would describe leisure as going out and playing a sport, or playing a musical instrument, or <add non computer hobby here>.

I am now thinking we are confused between leisure and procrastination.

simbolit• 13 years ago

the internet makes my day feel like running with a parachute

this phrase gets you an upvote. thank you! :-)

eliben• 13 years ago

Might that simply be because there's more things you want to do? Isn't this a basic psychological tendency, to want more and more when you have more?

zackmorris• 13 years ago

I'm beginning to think this is the problem of our time. We have the combined resources to solve any and all problems, but generally solve none of them, and the predicament spans individuals to governments. There is no readily apparent solution, because if there was, it would already be happening (is there a scientific term for that?)

cafard• 13 years ago

The book The Harried Leisure Class (http://www.amazon.com/Harried-Leisure-Staffan-Burenstam-Lind...) suggests an interesting explanation for this.

xenonite• 13 years ago

thanks, I just found it in a library. Yes, a real library!

Toenex• 13 years ago

And why is it we all seem to spend the majority of our time doing things for others? Surely there must be a net equality to this?

d23• 13 years ago

Something happened to me yesterday that I haven't quite had the time to figure out.

I'm normally the introverted "stay at home and relax" type, at least during the week. I frequently want to get home from work as early as possible to play video games, play music, or read. The only problem I've had lately is I've had little motivation to do the creative parts (e.g. creating music or programming something).

But last night I went to the gym after work, making me get home an hour later than usual. Then I went out to an open mic with some music friends and had food and beers. Then I came back home and played video games for an hour or so. Then I managed to actually write music for another hour and a half.

It was weird, because normally I'd feel like I had a huge block of time in front of me (in theory, "relaxing"), so I could do whatever I wanted. But the catch was that I actually wouldn't do them! I'd procrastinate, and feel like I wasn't using the time "best" way. Last night was so different, and I felt really energized this morning.

What's the takeaway? I don't know yet. Maybe I'll try to do more. It was fun.

salemh• 13 years ago

I think momentum plays a big part. That goes both ways in creative pursuits of getting things "done" or at least moving forward on projects, as well as stagnating.

The more time you "I'll do it later" on something, the easier it becomes, etc.

The book "Art of War" while some "hippie'esque"'ness breaks down "resistance" to getting to creative pursuits.

zeidrich• 13 years ago

Honestly I think it's neurochemistry.

Things cause stress. Stress hormones float around in your brain "motivating" you. This isn't real motivation, it's stress-based motivation.

Exercise in my experience is the best cure to this stress condition. Unfortunately exercise tends to leave you tired. The other things that can help it pass are pleasurable, simple things. Video games, TV, reading a book you've read before, socializing in a comfortable environment. The exercise seems to remove that stress, while the rest just helps you not accumulate it while you take your mind off of other things.

It's not until that stress has passed that you get the clear head that lets you want to do something creative.

In the future, maybe when you feel that you aren't being creative, instead of trying to do more, just try to exercise, have a glass of wine, play some video games, and see if it happens again. Maybe go to bed early.

ternaryoperator• 13 years ago

Really, just prioritize what you want to do, rather than just doing it in the moment. You'll limit yourself this way to the cool stuff and still have time for doing nothing. But the "do nothing" time has to be made a priority, rather than being what's left over. If you have to, schedule the do-nothing time. It's incredibly refreshing and balancing.

hownottowrite2• 13 years ago

Anyone looking for more praise of idleness should look into the works of Tom Hodgkinson. How to Be Idle is particularly brilliant.

richtr• 13 years ago

Here's the 5 minute summary: http://www.wikisummaries.org/How_To_Be_Idle

hownottowrite2• 13 years ago

This book is less about being a guide and more about learning how to experience the world at a human speed. The chapters are just guide-points or koans.

smacktoward2• 13 years ago

The irony of only having time to read a Cliff's Notes version of a book called "How To Be Idle" is truly sublime.

badman_ting• 13 years ago

I think that book ruined my life, albeit in a very enjoyable manner.

computerJanitor• 13 years ago

"...there is no reason to go on being foolish forever."

Draiken3• 13 years ago

Except there are...

Reasons that are not ours, but for those who control us.

gbog3• 13 years ago

I was half through and I suddenly had a click in my head, thought this was written by pg.

Same clean and efficient style, same nakedness without any philosophical scaffolding, while being bullet tracing a straight line through many philosophical stand points.

Two very clairvoyant minds. Let's go back reading.

gbog3• 13 years ago

There is this thing about ancient China: each son, when his father died, had to mourn for three years. Yes, three years. And it meant stopping your official occupation, e.g. official employment. (This didn't apply to the peasant).

Result: most of the great products of Chinese culture are a direct consequence of this forced idleness.

jonahss• 13 years ago

Could you provide a source for this conclusion? I'm interested in the idea, but can't find anything on it.

gbog3• 13 years ago

It has been mentioned in Essays on China by Simon Leys (I read it in French).

padobson4• 13 years ago

Here's something sort of related in Deuteronomy 24:5 - If a man has recently married, he must not be sent to war or have any other duty laid on him. For one year he is to be free to stay at home and bring happiness to the wife he has married

How much of the rest of the Bible came out of obeying that law, I wonder?

sandeepspatil• 13 years ago

"borrowing made it appear as if the future was nourishing the present"

volume• 13 years ago

I wonder what Bertrand Russell would say about Undercover Cop. If only he were alive today and given the chance to produce his on reality tv show. I wonder what that would be like?

imarg• 13 years ago

Of a similar thinking is, I suppose, "The Right to Be Lazy" by Paul Lafargue.

I read it some time ago and if I remember correctly he believed that there isn't/wasn't any need to work more than 3 hours a day because of the technological advances of the time (and to think this was in 1883!)

After a quick search I found it is available online at: http://www.marxists.org/archive/lafargue/1883/lazy/

foobarqux• 13 years ago

"Quitting the Paint Factory" is another good essay on the theme but is marred by an atopical discussion of George Bush.

http://paulbe.dreamwidth.org/961.html

ludwigvan2• 13 years ago

Trivia: Lafargue was Marx's daughter's husband.

kungfooguru• 13 years ago

Trivia: And one of the people Marx was referring to when he said that if they are Marxists then "what is certain is that I myself am not a Marxist."

_nullandnull_• 13 years ago

I recently stumbled upon a great graphic comic (mostly factual) about Betrand Russell and his life. I'd highly recommend it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logicomix

leejoramo2• 13 years ago

As wikipedia notes on Bertrand Russell:

His work has had a considerable influence on logic, mathematics, set theory, linguistics, artificial intelligence, computer science (see type theory and type system), and philosophy, especially philosophy of language, epistemology, and metaphysics.

Plus he won the Nobel Prize in Literature!

For a very approachable overview of Russell's complex life, I highly recommend the graphic novel "Logicomix"

http://www.logicomix.com/

Then you will certainly find yourself wanting to learn more about this amazing person.

samograd• 13 years ago

For a very approachable view of Russel's thoughts and work, you can try reading his own writing:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/355

My personal favourite so far has been 'Mysticism and Logic and Other Essays' with 'Analysis of Mind' currently at the top of my reading queue. Not everything he did was like reading 'Principia Mathematica' and his writing is very open, readable and eloquent.

leejoramo2• 13 years ago

Thanks for that link to Gutenberg. Adding those essays to my reading list.

angrow• 13 years ago

Whoever contemplates the world in the light of an ideal--whether what he seeks be intellect, or art, or love, or simple happiness, or all together--must feel a great sorrow in the evils that men needlessly allow to continue, and--if he be a man of force and vital energy--an urgent desire to lead men to the realization of the good which inspires his creative vision.

"Proposed Roads to Freedom" is my pick for number one.

mercer2• 13 years ago

I liked a bunch of the essays I read by him, and loved "A History of Western Philosophy". I'm well aware (and felt his writing made it obvious enough) that it is not necessarily a 'accurate' history of philosophy, but it was a great book with a great approach.

__matt• 13 years ago

so he proposed a nuclear first strike against russia? what an amazing person :D

gruseom4• 13 years ago

Yes, Russell definitely did that and was evasive about it afterward. In the late 1940s this insanity was widespread: an entire movement of politically influential players dedicated itself to nuking the Soviet Union before it achieved the bomb and (so the argument went) inevitably used it on us. Von Neumann was another prominent advocate ("If you say bomb them tomorrow, I say why not today? If you say do it at five o'clock I say why not one o'clock?") Many hawkish military leaders (e.g. Curtis Lemay) pushed strongly for it, though others (such as Eisenhower, IIRC) had the wisdom to be appalled by the idea. Thankfully Truman refused. [1]

I got all this from William Poundstone's book on the Prisoner's Dilemma. It's been years since I read it, so corrections on details are welcome.

That is the climate that was satirized in Dr Strangelove.

It was sordid on Russell's part to agitate for nuclear strikes, but everyone makes mistakes and everyone is subject to social climate. What is arguably worse is that once the insanity had passed, he refused to own up to it fair and square and just say "we were mad, and thank goodness it didn't happen". Perhaps that is what a world reputation as a moral authority does to the ego. I remember doing a double-take when I first read about this and wondering why it is so little known. If Barry Bonds deserves an asterisk beside his name in the record books then surely so does Bertie.

[1] Contemporary analogs left as an exercise to the reader.

singingfish• 13 years ago

The early 20th century's celebrity philosopher. With Whitehead they wrote the book Principia Mathematica which provided the foundation for LISP.

benhirashima• 13 years ago

there's a great book in the same vein, How to be Idle. http://www.amazon.com/How-Be-Idle-Manifesto-ebook/dp/B00DB3F...

ashutoshm• 13 years ago

and now for something completely different http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k799LiPqu2g [Bertie in Bollywood]

CaptainSwing• 13 years ago

There is a great deal of anarchist and libertarian communist literature critiquing the modern concept of work, notably Russian anarchist Kropotkin's book 'the conquest of bread' originally written in around 1906. http://libcom.org/library/the-conquest-of-bread-peter-kropot...

yankoff• 13 years ago

I wonder how much Mr. Russel was idle himself having written on average 2 books per year throughout his life and significantly contributing on so many levels.

padobson4• 13 years ago

The method of a leisure class without duties was, however, extraordinarily wasteful. None of the members of the class had to be taught to be industrious, and the class as a whole was not exceptionally intelligent. The class might produce one Darwin, but against him had to be set tens of thousands of country gentlemen who never thought of anything more intelligent than fox-hunting and punishing poachers.

I'm down. We should be massively ramping up the amount of leisure time in our society so that we, as a society, never miss out on a potential Darwin or Lincoln or Jesus or whomever. How many world-changing, mental giants have we missed out on because they couldn't free their minds from working 40+ hours a week?

npsimons• 13 years ago

Well, apart from that last fictional character who has arguably brought more harm than good through his ideas (and arguably through them being misinterpreted), I'm all down with that.

shrikant• 13 years ago

Actually, Jesus himself isn't fictional and his existence is pretty much agreed upon as a historical fact.[1]

It's the details of his activities in the New Testament and various Gospels that are hotly debated.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus (use this as a starting point for further citations..)

/pedant mode off.

Draiken3• 13 years ago

The problem is the decision to do this is never in the hands of the wage-earners...

Only the powerful and rich can really change this reality, and it's clearly not aligned with their interests.

padobson4• 13 years ago

I don't know. If the venture finance industry has taught us anything, it's that one big win can pay for a whole mess of failures, and then some.

If you tell a bunch of rich people they've got a good chance of financing the next Leonardo DaVinci or Thomas Edison by providing the living essentials to 5,000 people, you could probably get a few to take you up on it. Just make sure you're cutting them in on the profits.

wmt• 13 years ago

The standard 8 hour / 5 day work week in Europe did not happen after some day the rich and powerful decided it, far from it. Strong labor unions were the key into making it a reality. While they might be impeding financial growth and make some things more bureaucratic, the increase in living conditions makes them worth it.

padobson4• 13 years ago

I have to say there's a good chance that society is already moving toward Russell's ideal.

If you just look at accelerators like YCombinator, you'll see that two successful startups (Dropbox and AirBnb) are by-and-large paying for the investment of the other several hundred startups several times over.

So when will we see it going to the next level? Gather a bunch of people together, using whatever criteria you see fit, and tell them to do whatever they want. Pay for their room and board, and see what is produced from their complete leisure time. If the produce of that investment was one of the individuals simply having an idea on the scale of something like "Democracy" or "Altruism", wouldn't it be completely worth it if the other individuals never did anything more than eat, sleep, and play video games?

VLM• 13 years ago

We called those "housing projects" and they were not exactly a paradise to live in. Superficially need some minimal level of education/civilization. Which merely excludes those bored by formal education, most of whom are idiots and a small fraction of them are geniuses. For lack of a better idea you could use some weighted GPA/IQ/GRE/SAT/ACT score system. Assuming the smartest people are those who come up with the best ideas. It does seem that to spread an idea you need a smart dude but a think tank should hire marketing people for that? Perhaps a lotto would work just as well for selection. A lotto instead of elections would likely give us a superior government, perhaps it would give us superior ideas on average.

Another interesting example is the Institute for Advanced Studies nearby Princeton, I think. You might want to examine whats been produced there.

anjc• 13 years ago

Surely YCombinator and startup culture is the antithesis of what Russell is talking about as being desirable? The legions of burned out coders would probably not equate crunch time with leisure time.

enduser• 13 years ago

There are a number of beautiful places in the United States where it is possible for a person to subsist quite luxuriously on $1200/mo and preserve the ability to throw parties for friends, buy books and tools, etc. As of January a person with such income will have free Medicare in Oregon.

"Fuck You" money is an illusion that keeps you working. The mind loves to believe that having enough of some external thing will give us control, safety, or whatever we most fear the lack of. It isn't true. A man with with excess money is absorbed in concerns of what to do with it and is hardly free. He might be able to say "fuck you" to people, but he can't say "fuck you" to money.

Freedom is measured by the scarcity of our concerns. And happiness, perhaps, by closeness with people to whom we need never say "fuck you" because we love them and accept them fully.

theunixbeard• 13 years ago

Any specific recommendations? I've seen Eugene, Boise, Flagstaff, and Albuquerque thrown around on HN before but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

mimiflynn• 13 years ago

Eugene is in Oregon with the free medicaid. ABQ is my favorite, though. I hear great things about Boise, especially if you are into river sports.

eli_gottlieb5• 13 years ago

Shut up and stop giving away the secrets of life! People were supposed to find those on their own!

pyrrhotech• 13 years ago

yea, but you still need $360k or so to be able to withdraw $1200/month forever without worry. That's still a decent chunk of change. I guess you can save it in 5 years, but if you don't like working those 5 years will be hellaciously long

edwardy20• 13 years ago

Working part time seems a decent compromise. There's no reason you have to live off of savings only.

eli_gottlieb5• 13 years ago

How are you investing $360k to make $1200/month forever without worry?

mailshanx• 13 years ago

Commenting so i remember yours.

lgieron• 13 years ago

That is my receipe as well. I live in Poland, where stuff can be hilariously cheap when living on a good "first world" contracting rate. In the last 7 years I've contracted for maybe 3.5 years total. Right now I'm about to end my last contract and have money for another 4-5 years of freedom. And my lifestyle includes eating out 1-3 per day, having a maid, brand new car, some travel. Seriously, I sometimes feel sorry for people born in rich countries (esp. living in places like NYC, London) who need to work much more than I do to maintain the same lifestyle.

myth_drannon• 13 years ago

On the same note I would like to add another related and a great article: The Quality of life http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/07/31/the-quality-of-life/

pvdm• 13 years ago

He also wrote "Conquest of Happiness".

pjdorrell• 13 years ago

"If he merely puts his savings in a stocking, like the proverbial French peasant, it is obvious that they do not give employment."

What is "obvious" to Bertrand Russell is bad economics.

When the peasant puts his money in a stocking, he causes a slight deflation, so prices decrease, which increases the value of everyone else's money. So everyone else effectively has more to spend, if they want to.

However, everyone else would be prudent to assume that the peasant will eventually spend his money, which will correspondingly cause prices to rise again.

It might seem that an earlier gain is offset by a later loss.

But, those who benefit from the slight deflation can choose to invest the increased value of their monetary holdings into industry. At a later time, when the peasant decides to spend his money, the products of that industry will be ready for purchase.

Thus, with nothing more than surplus cash and a stocking, the peasant has driven investment in industry, productive employment, and long-term growth in the wealth of society, the benefits of which he has foregone since he chose not to seek a return of interest on his savings.

wintersFright• 13 years ago

Keep in mind this was 1932 when there was the gold standard. Inflation was more volatile then and was -10% (minus!) according to http://www.rateinflation.com/inflation-rate/usa-historical-i...

philwelch• 13 years ago

That's not how deflation works. If it was, it would be far less painful.

kevgnulldev• 13 years ago

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell

00rion• 13 years ago

I notice that nobody has related this to the Swiss proposal to provide a basic income for all adults. If it works there, I wonder if other countries will move in that direction.

Bertrand Russell: In Praise of Idleness (1932)

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