Cheap razor made after P&G watches Indians shave

http://news.yahoo.com/cheap-razor-made-p-g-watches-indians-shave-164550714--finance.html

by iamwil • 13 years ago

67 75 13 years ago

news.yahoo.com

DanBC4• 13 years ago

This article has some interesting insights about the process of developing a product, and the problems of working in a lab away from the people who are going to use the product.

But I can't help feeling disappointed that we have yet another disposable thing, instead of a better handle for double blades.

The takeaway: In the U.S., razor makers spent decades on marketing centered on a close shave, adding blade after blade to achieve a smoother cheek.

Haha! My bathroom looks like something from a Tarantino movie after I finish shaving. Blood everywhere. Honestly, I'm surprised I still have both ears. Some days I just stop half way through if I haven't cut myself, quit while I'm ahead. And they keep adding blades - you might as well just give me a cheesegrater and get it over with. At the moment I'm using a double blade and Merkur handle, and I really really like it. Initial investment, but much cheaper over time. The ritual of shaving is nice.

raverbashing• 13 years ago

I also hate to cut myself while shaving.

That's why I use an electrical shaver.

MAJOR improvement for me over the blades.

ekianjo• 13 years ago

electrical shavers are not that great for me. I always feel they could shave closer to the skin and they take far too long to yield an acceptable result (and I have used several ones).

Back to blades. Fast, clean, very close to the skin and I have absolute control on the shave. And I like the smell of the cream, too.

brspangler3• 13 years ago

But I can't help feeling disappointed that we have yet another disposable thing, instead of a better handle for double blades.

I noticed that in the article, it talks about the price of the handle and the price of the blades[0]. I looked it up and it's not a disposable razor, it's a replaceable cartridge head[1]. Which isn't as bad from my perspective. Same source for [1] also says that the razor's made in India[2], so it's going to have a much shorter maker-to-market chain.

[0] http://news.yahoo.com/cheap-razor-made-p-g-watches-indians-s... "Gillette sells the Guard for 15 rupees, or 34 cents, and each razor blade is 5 rupees, or 12 cents"

[1] http://www.westcoastshaving.com/Gillette-Guard-Cartridge-Raz... "Description Newly released Gillette Guard Cartridge Razor with pivoting head."

[2] http://www.westcoastshaving.com/Gillette-Guard-Cartridge-Raz... "Made in India."

DanBC4• 13 years ago

Ah, excellent. Thank you for the correction. You're right, it is much better.

rhplus• 13 years ago

But I can't help feeling disappointed that we have yet another disposable thing, instead of a better handle for double blades.

The problem that Gillette was looking at (expensive reusable blades and handles) is solved for a lot on lower income men in Indian by delegating the task to service industry professionals (a.k.a. street vendors, single-chair barbers). It would have been amazing if Gillette had figured out a way to make money by effectively supplying, training and endorsing that legion of individual vendors with higher grade reusable blades and disinfectants, thus keeping those micro-transactions flowing, rather than training the next generation of men that disposable is the only way to go.

brspangler3• 13 years ago

You do know that the Gilette company basically INVENTED the disposable blade razor, and the concept of "loss leader" manufacturing and marketing, yes? [0] Making average guys feel that they could handle the chore of shaving themselves was always the goal. Creating tools for a service industry would have gone against 100+ years of corporate strategy. Not saying it's a GOOD thing, mind you, but your argument is kind of like taking a hog farmer to task because he's not growing potatoes.

[0] http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/j/j/jjr5001/razor/

patrickg_zill• 13 years ago

"You're doing it wrong" ... seriously though, there are a series of steps that will result in a good shave without blood loss.

The most important is to understand that the hairs on your face act like spaghetti - they are so much softer when they have absorbed some water. So the key is, shave after you get out of the shower, or make sure your face has been wet for a few minutes before you apply lotion or gel and start to shave.

Second, go slower!

Third, either move your face muscles around or actually use the fingers on your other hand, to pull your skin taut in the area you shave, this will minimize the chance of a cut.

DanBC4• 13 years ago

Yes, shaving in the shower (with a suitable mirror) helped a lot.

Using a small amount of shaving oil helped too.

But now I just use a double edged blade and a brush and some nice soap (Joe's Mug Soap, dirt cheap, or other stuff which is not so cheap) and follow up with a moisturiser.

Email me if you're an HN reader and you sell any of this stuff, because I'm interested. Especially if it smells like Bulldog Face Scrub. (http://meetthebulldog.com/product/view/43)

dingaling• 13 years ago

... until they traveled to India and observed men using a cup of water to shave. All the MIT students had running water.

Interesting. My brief sojourn as a representative of Her Majesty's Government also taught me to shave from a bowl of water, simply because running water was an inefficient use of resources. It did require agitating the razor quite abruptly to clean it, and shaving was a little more jarring than when using warm water, but it worked.

And the bowl could be tipped-out after shaving to be filled with tasty porridge for brekkies. :)

P&G should promote this design to various militaries around the World. The use-case seems to match perfectly ( right down to the lack of a proper mirror ).

StavrosK• 13 years ago

Wouldn't it be worth putting a brush (or felt) at the bottom of the bowl, so you could brush the razor in the direction of the blades (the opposite way of shaving) to clean it much faster? That way, the fabric pushes the hairs out, instead of having to rely on the force of the water from the agitation.

madlynormal• 13 years ago

DE Blades are the way to go. http://www.maggardrazors.com/index.php/product/budget-starte...

brspangler3• 13 years ago

I prefer straight razors. They're a lot of work, but not generating a material waste stream is totally worth it for me.

hanley• 13 years ago

Double Edged Razors are definitely a win in terms of shave quality and cost. I bought a year supply of blades on Amazon for under $20.

mercnet• 13 years ago

" In the U.S., razor makers spent decades on marketing centered on a close shave, adding blade after blade to achieve a smoother cheek." I cannot believe the article said this as more blades are worst for your skin. You are right about DE, especially when I purchased 100 razor blades for $19 at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002CE3518/ref=oh_details_o...

avtar• 13 years ago

Everyone's shaving needs are different -- mine require me to spend a considerable amount of time and effort to make sure I don't end up with cuts or ingrown hairs. I used disposable razors for the longest time until I found a thread on a wet shaving forum[0] where someone had shared a quick tutorial video[1] on how to shave with a double edge razor. After committing to wet shaving I now get the closest shaves possible which require me to shave less often.

What I really like about this method of shaving is that it made me view this activity differently. It's no longer a chore and it isn't something that I mindlessly rush through. The shaving brush, razor, blades, and cream are my tools; I don't just toss them into garbage (the blades being the exception) once I've had a few shaves. I prepare everything and commit to being present while I shave. It's a ritual now and as lame as it might sound my life is richer as a result. I wish someone had taught me to shave this way when I first started.

[0] http://badgerandblade.com/vb/forum.php

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qSIP6uQ3EI

npsimons• 13 years ago

I'd have to concur, and can strongly recommend, if anyone has the interest to go even farther, try straight razor shaving. You might want to get a straight razor shave by a professional first (there's an Art of Shaving in Vegas that will do it), then consider learning to do it yourself. At that point, you're no longer throwing anything away! But of course it takes a bit more time, focus, and attention to detail, plus you have to keep the razor sharp (which can be another ritual in and of itself).

singlecomment17• 13 years ago

LOL. Rings true.

"Indian men have thicker hair and a higher hair density than their American counterparts. Adding to that, they often shave less frequently than American men, so they wind up shaving longer beards." .. "

"... observed men using a cup of water to shave. All the MIT students had running water. Without that, the razor stayed clogged."

I live in a first world country now, and still use a bowl of water when shaving: it's the environmentally kind thing to do. People who keep the water running all the time while they brush their teeth or shave drive me nuts. Ditto people who pull out three to four paper napkins from public restrooms after washing their hands. Take them one by one: one or two is probably enough.

End rant.

And on topic, I've found that the quality of the blade makes a huge difference. I think they intentionally put bad blades in the cheap razors. I wonder how good the blade on this one is.

sateesh• 13 years ago

:: Take them one by one: one or two is probably enough.

Or carry and use a handkerchief.

yareally• 13 years ago

I live in a first world country now, and still use a bowl of water when shaving: it's the environmentally kind thing to do. People who keep the water running all the time while they brush their teeth or shave drive me nuts.

Haven't thought of simply turning the water off between rinses instead of using a cup?

r0h1n2• 13 years ago

I think they intentionally put bad blades in the cheap razors.

Oh I think the likes of Gillette do far more devious things when it comes to the life of razors. For instance, I can almost swear that the blades on my Fusion razor seem to wear out much faster than the blades on my Mach 3, Sensor, Presto etc. (I've been nearly a lifelong Gillette razor user)

I think what Gillette does is to ensure that the lubricating strip wears out faster, thus causing discomfort while shaving and making one feel as though the razor itself has worn out.

http://gliddofglood.typepad.com/the_glidd_of_glood_blog/2012...

maxerickson• 13 years ago

Has your water changed (perhaps you moved around)? Deposits make the edge rough, some water will make more of them.

It is also somewhat more difficult to get a good lather with harder water.

masklinn2• 13 years ago

People who keep the water running all the time while they brush their teeth or shave drive me nuts.

Mixing valves have existed for a few decades now (unless you're in the UK, which is still waiting to discover plumbing I believe). There no reason to leave water running.

PeterisP2• 13 years ago

An extra bath probably spends more water than a month of my shaving, and making an extra serving of beef IIRC spends even much more freshwater than that. Should we really worry about trivially small amounts of water? There may be some warm fuzzies of 'doing something', but the actual impact is insignificantly small compared to other choices - such as which agricultural products are used, and if people choose to have a lawn.

paddy_m2• 13 years ago

A side note on shaving. I love http://dorcousa.com/ razors. They are a white label razor straight from China. Dollar shave club for men definitely uses them, so do a lot of store brands. The 6 blade razor straight from Dorco comes in at $5.75 a 4 pack, the same thing from dollar shave club? $9.

jblow• 13 years ago

This is a contemptible article. It seems mostly to be a product of PR, and for an American audience it seems intended to perpetuate the cognitive capture regarding razors being things that a lot of thought goes into and that therefore justify high prices.

Do the math for how much a razor "should" cost, and ask why you can't buy one for remotely that much at your local Walgreens. Ask why stuff like Dollar Shave Club exists, and then look at their prices and figure out what their margins are.

lake99• 13 years ago

intended to perpetuate the cognitive capture regarding razors being things that a lot of thought goes into and that therefore justify high prices

A lot of thought goes into anything that is mass-market and is still competitively priced. The article says, "each razor blade is 5 rupees, or 12 cents". Stuff like Dollar Shave club is way too expensive for most Indians, and that what this article is about.

If you still find it contemptible, fine, you make cheaper razors. If they work, I'll buy them.

paddy_m2• 13 years ago

Also take a look at http://dorcousa.com/ which is about 33% cheaper than Dollar Shave Club. Dorco is the wholesaler to Dollar Shave Club

kemayo2• 13 years ago

The bit which really tripped my PR filter was:

To do that, P&G executives would have to attract the nearly 500 million Indians who use double-edged razors, an old fashioned T-shaped razor that has no protective piece of plastic that goes between the blade and the skin when shaving.

...such razors are generally called "safety razors", and unless there's a radically different design in use in India, they're pretty hard to cut yourself with.

But a resurgence in their popularity would be pretty terrible for Gillette, given how much cheaper their blades are, so their PR can't say anything positive about them.

tlrobinson• 13 years ago

Maybe I don't know how to use them properly, but I cut myself way more often with safety razors than Gillette style razors.

christoph• 13 years ago

I invested in one of these recently, along with a badger hair brush, some proper shaving foam, and something like 100 blades from a variety of manufacturers. The total outlay was maybe £50.

I am honestly never going back to a mass manufactured multi-blade type razor again. I get a much better, closer shave and way less rash and burn. It takes longer, but i feel the trade off is well worth it. There is the obvious financial benefit that will more that pay for itself within a couple of years as well. I forget how much a gilette mach whatever blade was, something like £3-5.

Espressosaurus• 13 years ago

I used a cartridge razor before I switched to safety razors for cost reasons--and you're wrong.

It's much easier to cut yourself with a safety razor than with a cartridge razor. All it takes is being tired and in a hurry, or being clumsy when replacing the blade.

I've found the benefits (closer shave, cheap enough to replace regularly) worth the costs in time and (occasional) blood. But don't pretend that they're as idiot-proof as the cartridge razors, because unfortunately, they're not.

All that said--yeah, this was pretty transparently a PR piece with the moral of the story being "watch how people do what they do to make products that will appeal to them."

Um, duh?

DanBC4• 13 years ago

Depends on the handle used for the double edged blade. It's really easy to cut yourself with some of them. Especially if the blade is blunt and you're using more pressure. And you don't have good visibility.

I agree that the article is PR puff piece.

tarr11• 13 years ago

I don't really think of razors as high priced. I have a 4-blade razor from Gillette and I can shave for several weeks on one blade before it dulls out.

As an american audience member, my takeaway was around "knowing your customer". I also thought that they were focused on cost savings.

I am not sure what exactly you think is contemptible about this. That there is PR involved? That the price of razors is too high?

j-g-faustus• 13 years ago

I've no idea how much a razor "should" cost, perhaps you would enlighten us with your calculations?

If I decided to produce my own razor blades, I suppose I would need to buy an iron mine, a factory to melt the ore to iron, and a factory to turn the iron into razor blades. And presumably hire a few industrial designers or engineers to ensure that I got a nice razor rather than a lousy one.

I've no idea what any of these things cost, so I'll pick a random number and estimate a few hundred million USD.

And say I did all that just to get razor blades for myself, because I thought the market offerings were too expensive.

So my math is: Say $500m to aquire the means of production, an unknown yearly cost to keep them running (so I'll just ignore that part), and a consumption of one razor blade per week or slightly more than 3,000 blades in a lifetime (assuming 60 years, age 17-77, of shaving). According to my calculations, razor blades "should" cost in the neighbourhood of $160,000 per blade.

That's my math. What's yours?

philwelch2• 13 years ago

Do you realize you're calling the article out as a PR shill and then immediately reciting PR talking points for a competitor?

jdietrich• 13 years ago

Gillette already make a lower-cost product for the Indian market; They have a range of double-edged razors and blades, which sell for less than the product being discussed. Gillette have little interest in competing on price with local brands.

The marketing effort by Gillette is to upsell Indian consumers from a generic double-edged razor to a proprietary cartridge system, opening the path for continual upselling to multi-blade cartridge systems as those consumers and their offspring enter the middle class.

meepmorp2• 13 years ago

As an alternative solution to the problem, try growing a long, luxurious, and sexy beard. No unnecessary waste from shaving products, no razor burn, and less time dicking around in the mornings. When it gets too long, take 5 minutes and trim it back.

option_greek• 13 years ago

And get suspicious looks from strangers :) ? I used to shave once every 3 weeks but these days I try to do it at least weekly.

philwelch2• 13 years ago

Where do you live that beards are suspicious?

PeterisP2• 13 years ago

You have to take good care of a beard anyway - it's not so frequent as shaving, but it still must be done to look appropriate.

jccalhoun2• 13 years ago

It doesn't even have to be a long beard. I gave up shaving regularly years ago and can't imagine shaving every day.

It might be because I have really dense hair but I always hated shaving. Maybe if I had this razor allegedly designed for thicker hair I might shave more often. Maybe I'm part Indian and didn't know it? (Although I doubt any of my ancestors ever set foot in India let alone came from there.)

autodidakto• 13 years ago

The difference between maintaining facial hair at a couple of millimeters and maintaining it clean shaven is time, work, money, and (in the case of disposable razors) trash. All because current fashion is by default clean shaven. Resist!

lnanek2• 13 years ago

Not my decision, unfortunately. No girlfriend I've ever had liked beards, and I don't like to sleep alone.

rayiner3• 13 years ago

West coast? My wife loves beards and so does nearly every woman I know. Just look at how all the guys in Hollywood have long subble theae days. I feel like close shaves are very 1990's.

meepmorp2• 13 years ago

You need to step up to better quality women. ;-)

ebiester• 13 years ago

Eh, I have a beard and I still have to trim around the edges, leaving some work in the morning. And I couldn't grow a proper beard until 30 years old anyway, like many men here.

I'm a fan of the beard as much as anyone, but this is the wrong evangelism point.

rayiner3• 13 years ago

While I'm on sabbatical from corporate America I've grown a short one and not shaving is amazing. Especially since my hair is stiff and wears out razors quickly.

tptacek• 13 years ago

What are you doing on your sabbatical?

mistercow5• 13 years ago

but instead of making the costly trip abroad, they had Indian students at nearby Massachusetts Institute of Technology test the razor.

This is one of the hard things about being a tiny startup like P&G with very little capital to spare: you sometimes have to cut costs on little things that turn out to be more important than you thought. A few thousand dollars to fly your employees to India might not seem like much, but when you've only got $140B in assets, you have to make some tough calls, and you can't be right 100% of the time.

steveplace• 13 years ago

Departmental budget politics can lead to decisions like that.

bane• 13 years ago

Yes, because the cheap disposable Indian razor department gets to call on all $140B in assets in a Pyrrhic quest to crack the 12 cent foreign razor market.

mistercow5• 13 years ago

Obviously not. The point is that they weren't strapped for cash. It may not be a hugely profitable market, but if it's so unprofitable that they couldn't afford to send one guy over to India to actually talk to some Indian men about shaving, then the market isn't worth investing in in the first place.

I mean seriously, they brought a product to market and didn't fly over to India until after the product flopped? And now that they have, they're talking about basic run-of-the-mill user testing like it's this brand new concept that they're just now discovering.

How are these people still in business?

masklinn2• 13 years ago

This is one of the hard things about being a tiny startup like P&G

This was during the Vector's R&D circa 2002, Gillette was only bought by P&G in 2005. It's got nothing to do with P&G.

mistercow5• 13 years ago

Fair enough, but that doesn't really affect my point.

sopooneo• 13 years ago

I agree with your point. It seems insane to me to not have someone with a sharp mind and a friendly demeanor just go and travel around rural India for a couple weeks. Hire a guide once you're there. This would be in addition to any formal trials and focus groups. I am constantly amazed at how little importance is place on general, informal acquisition of domain knowledge. You never know what tiny fact is going to be important.

Aloha2• 13 years ago

I think this is a really neat (small) study of how a product makes it to market. Truth is, I would probably buy this razor if I could, I dont need a 97 blade extravaganza I just want something to scrape the extra hair off my face.

As far as using Indian students from MIT - thats a neat way of trying to lower development costs, while still targeting the specific needs to the ethnic group targeted. It didn't work perfectly, because it couldnt test for local use cases, but its still a neat start.

KC8ZKF2• 13 years ago

Buy a safety razor.

http://www.amazon.com/Astra-Superior-Premium-Platinum-Double...

Aloha2• 13 years ago

Yeah, the product discussed in the article is safer than a safety razor - that was part of the point.

testdrive5• 13 years ago

I don't see why HN people are so dismissive about this just because it costs less. I'm from a middle class family (considering my pa's income) but I make well more than $2000 a month (which is considered very good here). And I live in a posh area as well. Think about an equivalent of something like the heart of New York. That's where I live in.

Now that we have my financial background clear, to avoid ad hominem attacks, I would easily vouch for this razor. Not only it's really smooth to shave (very good ergonomics), it also lasts longer. Believe me, I have used a single blade for about 6 months (max), with no deterioration and any sort of skin irritations/side effects, on the condition that I take care of preserving my blades by placing them into the air tight bottles to avoid rusting.

However, my average with a single blade of this razor is usually 3 months. It's also really cheap. You can get 5 blades for an equivalent of $1.5 bucks USD (80 Indian rupees). The razor itself is cheap too. So, it's a good product that get's the job done for most of us. It's much better than what my father has - A three blade motorized, vibration enabled Gillete razor whose blades alone would set you back for $10 minimum for a set of 3 or 5.

I hate it when people automatically go into this "if it's cheap in price, it's cheap in quality" mode without giving the product a fair chance.

Just to be clear, my other HN account has 2000+ karma and I'm not a troll/marketer for this product. I'm a genuine customer who just would like to share my experience with it.

jckt• 13 years ago

They spent 3,000 hours with more than 1,000 consumers at their homes, in stores and in small group discussions. They observed people's routines throughout the day, sometimes staying late into the evening.

Is this really necessary?

Cheap razor made after P&G watches Indians shave

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