Ask HN: Who has gotten a job with absolutely no connections?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=649366

by rdr • 17 years ago

20 47 17 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Hi, it seems like many hacker jobs are obtained via personal connections (either directly or indirectly), and that hit rates on applying online to job posts are pretty low (especially nowadays).

If you've gotten your current (or past) job without any prior connections, what kind of job was it and how hard was it to get?

icey3• 17 years ago

I can't help much with your direct question; every job and gig I've had ended up being the result of knowing someone in some form or shape.

If you're looking for something new, I'd seriously recommend getting to some events and at least making _some_ connections. If you're in a city that has IT jobs, there are groups out there; it might just take a little looking to find them

rdr3• 17 years ago

thanks for the quick reply! so how did you get your FIRST job then? it seems easier to bootstrap once you've made connections at your Nth job to go to the (N+1)th job, but how do you start?

icey3• 17 years ago

My first job was an internship with someone I met during my short stay at college. I didn't know him very well at all, but we happened to talk a little bit and after I told him I wanted to get into the computer industry he let me know they had an internship available.

potatolicious• 17 years ago

My FIRST job started as an internship at the company. The internship was scored entirely without connections - I think the combination of well-refined cover letter and resume was the trick, as well as my experience with interviewing (the college had us apply and interview for a LOT of jobs).

From the internship came the job. Yay.

noodle3• 17 years ago

my current job had no connections involved. in fact, i turned down a perfectly good job in favor of this one simply because it had connections involved.

i wanted the job that i earned instead of the one i was handed. but, i'm kind of hardheaded about that type of thing.

sokoloff• 17 years ago

A job that you got via connections who know and trust your technical ability is an earned job.

rdr3• 17 years ago

yep i agree. it's not like you just got the job cuz your father owned the company or something outright nepotistic

noodle3• 17 years ago

sometimes yes, sometimes no. i know just as many people who've gotten jobs/contracts/etc because they shook the right hands as people who've gotten jobs because of their technical excellence.

it can be hard to know which is which sometimes.

matth2• 17 years ago

It can also often be a ticket to bigger money because they'd rather pay someone they know and trust than take a risk with someone they don't.

azanar3• 17 years ago

I agree, with a caveat. It depends on who it is knowing your technical ability, and what basis they have on which to judge that.

For instance, a secretary who has a friend who is "really good with computers" who submits her resume for a job as a DBA, and that friend gets hired on the basis of that recommendation -- yes, the friend was someone I knew. I guess you could say the friend earned the job based on the criteria put forward, but not on any basis that is good for her, the company, or the DBA profession as a whole.

jacoblyles• 17 years ago

Personally, I would have picked the better of the two jobs regardless of how I got the interview.

noodle3• 17 years ago

well, to draw a better picture, they were about the same.

chris11• 17 years ago

Think about it from a company's perspective. They can hire somebody because he performed well for a few hours in an interview, or they can hire somebody who performed equally well in that interview, and comes highly recommended by a respected staff member.

The staff member probably knows the applicant very well, so its basically like having the applicant be interviewed for months instead of just once. Sure the staff member could be recommending them just because he's a friend, but I'm assuming most people would not risk their reputation recommending someone who was incompetent.

So the job could have been just handed to you, or you could have actually passed the equivalent of an interview that lasted years.

azanar3• 17 years ago

"...Sure the staff member could be recommending them just because he's a friend, but I'm assuming most people would not risk their reputation recommending someone who was incompetent."

Maybe I've just been around the wrong people, but this seems the primary motivation behind the recommendation one friend would give on behalf of another. Competence never entered the picture; even when I would ask about it, I was always told "it's not what you know, it's who you know," as if to reassure themselves as much as to admonish me. In some cases, the recommendations are truly noble-minded, but never underestimate the social pressure people have to practice nepotism.

I will caveat this by saying I've been hired in one or two places where the recruitment tango started through a recommendation. One of those places, it stopped mattering as soon as the phone screen began. The other, well, the person who recommended me was the hiring manager, so I'm not sure that counts. :-)

twistedanimator• 17 years ago

I have gotten my last 2 jobs with no connections whatsoever. Both were software developer positions for languages/frameworks that I had no experience with. My advice is to write a killer cover letter.

The cover letter is the most important part of any job search. In mine I explained my side projects that I work on and my insatiable love of learning new technologies. I was up front in both cover letters, stating that I had no experience in the language they were hiring for, but I have a verifiable track record of being a quick learner when it comes to technology.

MattF• 17 years ago

I can't agree more. There were no connections with my current job - the only person I knew in the whole country was my wife!

My resume barely matched the requirements the position, but I landed an interview on the strength of my cover letter. I basically made the same points about enthusiasm, learning ability, etc, and tried hard to come across as hard working and humble.

bayareaguy• 17 years ago

The cover letter is the most important part of any job search

I disagree. I think the most important parts of any job search are attitude and aptitude. Some background: I started looking for a new job in early February of this year after the company I previously worked for shut down. At first I was worried that with the recession it might take a while to get new work so I got very serious about my new "job" of finding a job. I found one 3 weeks later without any connections (via craigslist) and I'm pretty sure it was because of the effort I put into:

- ensuring my resume would appeal to the kind of people I wanted to work with

- ranking and filtering position postings into categories based on how well they matched the kind of work I enjoy, the kind of work I'm currently good at, the salary I wanted, future opportunities and general working conditions

- writing specific cover letters explaining my background, my understanding of what the position required, why I wanted to do that job and what kinds of things I would do when I started.

- spending time preparing for interviews and studying things I believed it would be worthwhile to demonstrate in person

- ensuring my references were fully informed about my situation, understood my view of the companies I was considering and were easy to contact by potential employers without delay

When I started my search, I screened around 100 postings down into three 5-element lists (A/B/C) and sent a custom cover letter and resume to the top 10. This led to 4 interviews and 3 offers in the next 3 weeks and although I had to turn down two of the offers, I've kept in regular contact with them and have been asked to keep them in mind if my situation changes. I'm pretty certain that every one of the things I mentioned above was essential in this outcome.

Ironically for the past month I've been spending a few hours a week where I work screening and ranking resumes, conducting telephone interviews and making recommendations to our management. Although I'd prefer to be coding during this time, I know from experience that I'll be much happier in the long run if I help the company pick good people. So far I've been applying the same criteria I would want applied to me and before I agreed to do any reviews I made sure that my boss and our HR person agreed to:

- 5 specific responsibilities for each position

- 8 short questions we would send the candidate before we talk to them on the phone

- A 20 question, 45 minute written exam for in-person interviews.

Regardless of what their cover letter says, the first thing I look for is whether or not the candidate's experience and background is appropriate for the job. About 1/2 the candidates are immediately eliminated without a thought. Then I look more closely at the details and read their cover letter and assign a number from 1-3 for each responsibility indicating how well their stated experience and goals match that responsibility and record the details in a spreadsheet.

The top 1/3 of the candidates get selected for followup calls. When the call is scheduled, the candidate is emailed the questions we'll cover related to the responsibilities. Although technical in nature, none of the questions have right or wrong answers. They are intended to give the candidate an opportunity to demonstrate their ability to understand our company's goals and explain how they would fit in. Although the phone interview is limited to 20 minutes and candidates have to be clear and to the point, they are also offered the opportunity to follow up with anything they would like to say in email (although surprisingly few do so). So far only about 1/3 of the remaining candidates have been asked to come in for the interview and written exam and we've been pleased with all the ones that have.

stonemetal• 17 years ago

>that hit rates on applying online to job posts are pretty low (especially nowadays).

Hit rates for monster etc are pretty low. Local job boards, University "career center" online listings other low volume job sites are still worth looking at. It is how I found both my current position and my last position.

abyssknight• 17 years ago

I got my first job the hard way. I applied, and took whatever they would offer. I pretty much said I'd work for nothing.

I was in college, had no experience, and knew very little. I needed an in, and saw an ad in our Computer Science building. Emailed my resume, got a call, interview etc. I met with the owner who told me to go home and learn PHP and MySQL over the weekend. Did that, took a quick development test, and started work the following week.

I made minimum wage for about a year before we (the other newbie and myself) power played for a pay raise.

That job is what got me where I am today. We had to learn everything, be everything and do everything from support, engineering, development on through server admin and db schema design. I couldn't ask for a more rewarding first job.

From there all of my jobs have been based on my experience. My first salaried position I got because I was willing to move, could answer a battery of basic questions on programming and system admin, and I fit in. My current position I got because I learned ColdFusion at my previous job.

Everything builds from that first job. Being able to demonstrate your skills is extremely valuable. Connections can get you in the door, but real work will get you the job.

I actually got an interview through a connection once and was called the day of to cancel. That sword is double-edged.

nkohari• 17 years ago

Two. My first, and my second. After that, I had a good enough network that I ended up with a personal introduction or referral. Networking really is everything in business. :)

JoelPM• 17 years ago

All but one of my jobs I've gotten without any connections.

Out of college I worked for IBM. Initial contact was at an engineering job expo. I had interviews on campus and then on site.

After that I submitted my resume to Xanga.com on a whim. I had a phone screen and then an on site interview.

From there I got a job at a law firm where my wife worked (the only connection based job I received).

Google found me via LinkedIn. I had two phone screens and an on site interview.

A recruiter found me via LinkedIn looking to fill a position for some other company. I told him I wasn't interested but from our exchange he picked up that I would like to work closer to home. When an opportunity at OpenX came along he contacted me again, and I did two phone interviews and then an on site.

In my experience LinkedIn is a great way to have jobs find you. Being able to interview well helps seal the deal - to do that you have to know your stuff and be able to present it well.

strlen• 17 years ago

I've gotten my first job ever after being contacted by a recruiter (at 17, as still a high school student no less!). Got my first position out of college with no connection (applied online, during my senior year, in response to an ad on my university's CSE department's web page).

Left that job to go to a start-up where I was introduced to the founders through a connection. The problem is that (initially to me) the position didn't seem sufficiently technically challenging to me (standard LAMP development), so my connection ended up both a) "selling" the position to me b) "selling" me to the founders (who in turned tried harder to convince me that the position would be interesting).

That's always a sticky issue with referrals: they give additional reasons for hiring a person and a additional reasons for the person to accept the position. The company will feel the referring employee will be happier and more productive if his friend/former co-worker is hired; the referred connection will want a chance to work with someone they already knew and enjoyed working with. Problem is that these reasons can detract from the real questions at hand: "is this person a good fit for the position" (for the employer) and "is this a position where I know I will be happy" (for the employee). Neither side should be trying hard to sell themselves. Note: obviously I am talking about engineering vs. sales. In sales the candidate should be selling themselves (they're expected to sell the product) and should have built up a rolodex of connections in the industry.

When it came time to leave the start-up (due to the office moving out of my reasonable commute range and lack of technical challenge meant I wasn't interested in moving yet again), I applied to four companies (three of them big names, one a mid-sized start-up)-- two by sending in a resume in response to online job ads (Dice.com, LinkedIn), one by a contact from a recruiter, one through a referral. Got interviews from all. Got offers from three and (after more sleepless nights than I imagined) chose one-- the one position I didn't get an offer for was the one where I was referred (yes, it was Google).

All of this happened in Summer/Fall of 2008, as the market was crashing. So, your mileage may vary. My tips are this: write your resume smartly (show that you're competent, don't tell) tailor the resume (and especially) the cover letter to show that you're passionately interested in that specific job. If you use the UDP Multicast method of sending a resume (blast out 100 copies of it to 100 different positions), as expected with UDP Multicast, don't expect it to be processed. Apply only to jobs you (judging from the job description) feel you will be happy to do (which will make displaying passion and interest in that position very easy).

Here are some good resume tips (although I've read them after writing my resume): http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2007/09/ten-tips-for-slightl...

http://www.globalnerdy.com/2007/09/26/steve-yegges-resume-ti... (in case your response towards the first link is "TL;DR")

nathanb• 17 years ago

I got my current job--my first out of college--without any connections. It's a kernel programming job. I got it because I was able to talk intelligently about writing distributed systems and what a node-local kernel can do to facilitate distributed user-space applications.

That said, never underestimate the power of connections. I got my first internship because I "knew a guy who knew a guy". You never know when your scoutmaster or soccer coach or parents' friend from church or whatever unlikely acquaintance is going to end up working for (or founding!) the company that can provide you your dream job.

azanar3• 17 years ago

"...never underestimate the power of connections..."

Avoid overestimating the power of them as well; don't always assume it is who you know, or that who you know will make the experience better. When people err, in my experience, they seem to err in the direction of overestimating. They don't even bother to consider opportunities unless there is a connection involved, and they ignore red-flags they discover along the recruitment path simply because they have a connection there who downplays them. Often as not, they end up unhappy, but suffer through it because their only out is through more connections they don't yet have.

Sometimes, you have to look beyond the people you know.

mitechka• 17 years ago

I am a system administrator for forsalebyowner.com/ I got this job the old fashioned way, by sending out resumes for job ads on the internet.

khafra• 17 years ago

I got a job with the USMC at 17; since then, I've been all syn, syn/ack, ack: Connection-oriented.

ibsulon• 17 years ago

I've gotten my last two gigs through recruiters. One was an internal recruiter, one was a subcontractor.

utefan001• 17 years ago

Job 1 (connection) 1998 $17 tech support for 100 person architecture firm.

Job 2 (unplanned connection) 1999 The CEO of the 15 person software company went to highschool with a girl cousin of mine. He obviously use to like her.

Job 3 (no connection) 2001 thank you monster.com

Job 4 (no connection) 2002 side job, thank you careerlink.com

Job 5 (no connection) 2004 thank you monster.com

Job 6 (no connection) 2006 January..thank you monster.com, literally insane boss

Job 7 (no connection) 2006 July..thank you indeed.com, bored had to leave.

Job 8 (no connection) 2007 June..thank you craigslist

The thing that I am most grateful for that has helped me get jobs without connections is Job #5. The company was growing fast and had hundreds of areas where I could work on sql performance tuning. Even when I arrived home I would always dial in to work on sql performance tuning. I gained most of my confidence (not arrogance) making significant contributions during Jobs 3, 4 and 5. That confidence gained through experience helps during an interview.

themole• 17 years ago

My last three jobs have been w/o direct or indirect connections:

1. I was working at an ISP help desk and a local computer repair company called in desperately needing help with a *nix box. Went out on my own after a shift and helped the tech out. He emailed me the next day and asked if I was interested in working for them as a repair tech and if so when would be a good time to do a short interview. I eventually moved up to the director of web dev at this job. (Side note: Getting the ISP job was because of a direct referral)

2. I applied for a web dev job at the local newspaper about 4 years later. They offered me the positon about five weeks after applying - two weeks after my second interview. They were notoriously slow for interviewing and hiring people.

3. (current gig) Two years after that I applied for a web dev gig at the state university and was offered the position about 4 hours after my first and only interview. The interview went really well and all my referrals were awesome.

Now between all those jobs (about a 6 year span) I've probably applied for at least 5 other web development jobs and didn't even get interviews for all of them. For some I'm sure the lack of a college degree really made them think twice. In one interview I got burned on some technical questions that I couldn't answer which probably removed me from the pool.

While knowing people can be extremely helpful, I've found being ready when opportunity knocks much more useful. To put it another way, don't stop learning new things.

By continuing to expand your knowledge you prove that you're smart enough to learn and use new things, and that you care enough about your work to make yourself better at it.

agotterer• 17 years ago

I got my current job at Connected Ventures (CollegeHumor) with no connections and my first job at Cablevision as well. I found the CV job on Techcrunch.

leecho0• 17 years ago

Hmmm, connections only got me to the interview faster, it didn't seem to make a difference in the decision making process. Did it help for you guys?

swombat• 17 years ago

I got into a large consulting company as a junior software engineer back in the day, without any connections.

That sucks. I won't do that again if I can avoid it.

run4yourlives• 17 years ago

Myself on the last two occasions.

One, in the paper(!), the second through a local technology association website.

I'm still working there, 6 years later.

abstractbill• 17 years ago

I got my job at justin.tv with no connections.

Honestly, it wasn't very hard. If you're genuinely good at what you do, and you can prove it, then you're a huge anomaly compared to most people applying for any position, and you will stand out even without connections.

geekfuu• 17 years ago

Every job in the last 12 years that I have had in IT has been with ZERO connections. System architect positions. All hiring was based on my resume.

nickfox• 17 years ago

Two of my current contracts are from an open source project I wrote and put on Sourceforge (http://sourceforge.net/projects/gpsmapper/) It's not very complicated but people really like it.

ryanwaggoner• 17 years ago

My first job out of college was a product manager at CNET. I applied to several jobs there over the course of a few months, but heard nothing back. I eventually got a call from a hiring manager for a position, but he didn't find me in the internal hiring database. No, he found my resume posted on Craigslist and decided to call. I interviewed and got the job. Still surprises me.

macvijay1985• 17 years ago

kevinherron• 17 years ago

I got my current job as a Software Developer without any connections. Sent in my resume, came in for the interview, and brought my laptop to show off some of my personal projects on top of whatever we talked about.

Having experience that isn't related to work or school seems to be key.

dedalus• 17 years ago

I got my first job without any connections. Saw an ad and applied and get through the interview. If you see the job description and feel that you can do that job perfectly most of the time it should not be a problem

obvioustroll• 17 years ago

I've gotten two jobs that way. My first job out of school, and 7 years later when I was laid off. Most of my jobs, however, have come through personal contacts with other engineers.

shib71• 17 years ago

I got my current job (bespoke web development) based on my participation in an email list. Apparantly the other guys just recognized the name on the resume.

Never underestimate the value of a reputation in the community.

intranation• 17 years ago

I got a job as a developer at Yahoo! with no connections--I just applied via the ad on their site. This was a number of years ago when they were still hiring big time in Europe.

As for difficulty, it was 5 interviews including coding exercises, so I guess I did okay.

vivekamn• 17 years ago

I think for developers the advice of 'work your connections to get a job' is highly over rated. In my 15 years of experience not even a single job I got is based on connections.

fsniper• 17 years ago

A linux System Administration job. I was a new kid in the block and in the city. I had minor previous experience. And I was still an undergrad student. Knew no one. But made a good interview. Also the company was in need for an administrator quickly ;). The other one was leaving for conscription.

Ask HN: Who has gotten a job with absolutely no connections?

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