On Being Black in China

http://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/07/on-being-black-in-china/277878/

by patrick-james • 13 years ago

56 56 13 years ago

steele• 13 years ago

Not to minimize the overall message, to be fair, those students would probably would complain about a ethnic Chinese English teacher.

yapcguy• 13 years ago

Just like how non-Chinese expats in Hong Kong get higher salaries and packages including housing allowance, whereas oversea born Chinese are treated as locals despite being expats.

olalonde• 13 years ago

I live in China and there is indeed still some racism towards black and even asian people. A black English teacher in China will have a much lower salary then a white person for example (though this is also true of English teachers who are asian). As crazy as it sounds, schools will often prefer to hire a white teacher who is not a native speaker to a black/asian teacher who is a native speaker.

lambdasquirrel• 13 years ago

You see some of the opposite here in America. For some reason or another, people tend to prefer an Asian-looking kung fu teacher to a Caucasian or African-American one.

The present-day East Asian cultures have become strangely obsessed with image. There was one Taiwanese pop star, I think her name was Jolin or something, she's rumored to have had 3 different plastic surgeries in the last however many years, and come out looking quite different in each one. It's supposedly kind of scandalous now in Korea, when a husband and wife marry and then the kids turn out looking nothing like the parents.

noname1232• 13 years ago

when a husband and wife marry and then the kids turn out looking nothing like the parents.

Doesn't seem like a bad thing, just means that there should a good market for plastic surgery for the next generation.

cloudwizard• 13 years ago

I grew up on the Canadian Prairie. The only black people in the entire city were part of the professional football team. At school, the few black kids were tall and very athletic. It may be a stereotype but it was real in my city.

shef_hauwanga• 13 years ago

Are you certain that you knew every black student at your school or just the popular ones? If there are few blacks it makes sense that the ones you'd notice would be tall and athletic as these are qualities that tend to engender popularity for school children. Did you conduct a formal or even semi-formal survey? I've heard similar suggestions to this before and they rarely conform to reality. This sounds more likely to be a case of conformation bias.

philwelch• 13 years ago

When you go to a school with very few black people, noticing one is already surprising enough that you won't miss many through confirmation bias.

temphn8• 13 years ago

This author has an incredibly solipsistic worldview:

  Mao issued another statement of support in April 1968 after 
  the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. But despite 
  these expressions of support, there is scant evidence to 
  prove Mao or any other Chinese political leader at the time 
  would have been willing to align themselves actively with 
  the Civil Rights Movement. In fact, Chinese foreign policy 
  in the 1960s mirrored much of that of the West, due in part 
  to the Sino-Soviet split and the coming détente with the 
  U.S.

  After the deaths of Mao and Zhou Enlai, the era of 
  alignment with the developing world and oppressed peoples 
  gave way to Deng Xiaoping's pragmatic plan for economic 
  development epitomized by his statement, "To get rich is 
  glorious." From the 80s to the present, this new mantra has 
  fueled a single-minded devotion to the pursuit of wealth, 
  leaving little room for concern with past ideals.

The "past ideals" promoted by Mao included the mass murder of tens of millions of Chinese and almost thirty years of terror and poverty, from the Great Leap Forward through the Cultural Revolution. Not even a single mention or nod to this in the paragraph, which would have you believe that a mass murderer who gave lip service to the US civil rights movement is preferable to a man who brought a billion people out of darkness.

One might even call such a view - that all that matters is a person's professed attitude towards a black American - culturally imperialist. As the author notes in passing, post-Deng China is substantively doing a lot more for people of African origin via trade than Maoist China ever did. But all that matters are the "past ideals". A modern expression of the modern American religion: thou shalt not be saved through works, only through lip service towards MLK alone.

pradocchia2• 13 years ago

The passage you quote seems fairly neutral to me, and you appear to bring more baggage to the conversation than the author himself.

There was in fact a qualitative change in popular Chinese outlook from Mao to Deng, never mind the damage Mao inflicted on the country. China became more materialistic, less ideological, less idealistic. White people were associated with rich and powerful western nations, so their prestige increased. Black people were associated with poor African nations, so their prestige decreased. This was independent of any preferences for light and delicate features.

And I think this was one of the author's points, that shifts in popular outlook have affected Chinese perceptions of black people. What might once have been an asset (perception of shared suffering under capitalist/imperialist oppression) is now a liability ("we're poor but not as poor as you!").

temphn8• 13 years ago

  never mind the damage Mao inflicted on the country. China 
  became more materialistic, less ideological, less 
  idealistic.

"Never mind" the damage Mao inflicted? 65 million people died during his reign. Post-Mao China is more realistic, more productive, much wealthier, and much less insane (aka "ideological/idealistic"). It is less likely to foment violent revolution nearby and more interested in profitable stability. It is an improvement on every front that matters.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/m...

  Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

  Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, 
  qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, 
  an expert who had unprecedented access to official 
  Communist Party archives said yesterday.

  Speaking at The Independent Woodstock Literary Festival, 
  Frank Dikötter, a Hong Kong-based historian, said he found 
  that during the time that Mao was enforcing the Great Leap 
  Forward in 1958, in an effort to catch up with the economy 
  of the Western world, he was responsible for overseeing 
  "one of the worst catastrophes the world has ever known".

  Mr Dikötter, who has been studying Chinese rural history 
  from 1958 to 1962, when the nation was facing a famine, 
  compared the systematic torture, brutality, starvation and 
  killing of Chinese peasants to the Second World War in its 
  magnitude. At least 45 million people were worked, starved 
  or beaten to death in China over these four years; the 
  worldwide death toll of the Second World War was 55 
  million.

  Mr Dikötter is the only author to have delved into the 
  Chinese archives since they were reopened four years ago. 
  He argued that this devastating period of history – which 
  has until now remained hidden – has international 
  resonance. "It ranks alongside the gulags and the Holocaust 
  as one of the three greatest events of the 20th century.... 
  It was like [the Cambodian communist dictator] Pol Pot's 
  genocide multiplied 20 times over," he said.

But he said something nice about MLK once. Really, methinks that some "baggage" - aka knowledge of history - is quite necessary here.

mtdewcmu• 13 years ago

> White people were associated with rich and powerful western nations, so their prestige increased. Black people were associated with poor African nations, so their prestige decreased.

I thought the article might make that point, which would have explained the teaching anecdote, but instead, the author sees the opposite trend:

"Unlike their parents and grandparents, China's youth have grown up with access to information, entertainment, and art from all over the world. Many have consequently come to reconsider stereotypes of black people, and they are in turn influencing the opinions of their older, more "traditional" relatives."

I was hoping he would come back around and try to explain the apparent contradiction.

pessimizer5• 13 years ago

Because "ideals" means "belief systems" rather than "list of terrible things that they did that temphn thinks should be mentioned whenever their name comes up in conversation"?

temphn8• 13 years ago

Hard as it may be to imagine, there are things that are more important than whether someone said something nice once about the US civil rights movement - such as hundreds of millions of Chinese lives. The USA is not the center of the world and the level of platitudinous veneration of American icons is not the most important criterion by which to judge a foreign leader.

noname1232• 13 years ago

This is true. But IMO, there's a difference between the idea of "equality" in the Chairman's speech in People's Congress and black people's treatment in the open air market in Nanjing. As usual, "equality" is not altruistic.

Mao during the 1970's Sino-Soviet split wanted to create his own ideological alternative as a third way to the American capitalist decadence and the Soviet revisionist. So he struck a lot of deals with African go'vt back then to give their students education grants to Chinese universities. I honestly don't think Mao had an understanding of the African American experience in the sense of "Invisible Man," "Their Eyes Were Watching God" etc. but simply had an abstract understanding of "third-world solidarity".

Nowadays, the Chinese leadership is helping Africa in the name of the third-way of "peaceful rise" and "political non-interference to internal affairs" as the alternative to "America, the World Police" of UN/IMF/World Bank. Again I don't think Hu Jintao and Xi Jinping really relate to the health, socio-economic concerns of African people but simply wants access to the oil of Sudan and the soft power in the international stage.

All of this international diplomacy and economic deals does very little to affect the average Chinese person's attitude towards African's which is very racist. But I'd add that in my experience, racism is China is no worse than racism in America except the difference is that the average majority-member in the States is well-versed in political correctness or guilt that they know not to offend people in public and in private.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_anti-African_protests

moo2• 13 years ago

I bet Marketus could wear a hoodie and walk home from the store in China without getting shot by a racist vigilante. Lin Biao, who wrote Long Live the Victory of Peoples War, Black Panther Maoist ideology, China support for Third World liberation like in Vietnam, Cuba support for liberation of Angola, and Third World solidarity and liberation struggle in general had more to do with forcing legal change in Western apartheid ( also separate but equal laws in U.S.) regimes then the civil rights movement.

wisty• 13 years ago

Of course, you fail to mention the land reforms (which brought life expectancies up from 35, to more like 45). He saved as many lives with the land reforms as he killed in the Great Leap (which was only about 3 years - how long should he have tried it, if he genuinely though it would save hundreds of millions of lives?)

1960 to 1970 was when China actually came out of darkness (life expectancies rising from 45 to over 60). You could argue that this was because Deng (and other reformers, when Deng was purged) had managed to seize enough control that Mao couldn't do too much damage. The Cultural Revolution (which is the time period we are talking about) was bad for the people who were targeted, but China just didn't have that many educated people that trying to kill them all would make an appreciable dent in life expectancies. China would probably have developed a lot faster if it hadn't destroyed its education system, but it still grew pretty quick (even during the Cultural Revolution).

So basically, over Mao's life China went for a life expectancy of 35 to a life expectancy 60. Much of this was probably Deng fixing up the things that Mao broke.

Maoism is a terrible system of government, but it turns out it's streets ahead of feudalism. Really, the heads of the Qing dynasty should really go down as the worst leaders ever (imagine a century of people dying at the same rate as the Great Leap), with Mao as a runner up.

munificent• 13 years ago

    creating a vacuum of knowledge, drawing in stereotypes and prejudice

That's a beautiful turn of phrase.

j_s• 13 years ago

See also: "You'll never be Chinese" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4366203

pessimizer5• 13 years ago

I've been asking for this for years, but if anybody can come up with a method (website?) for me to figure out how black people are seen in different countries and regions, that would help me a lot. Seems like the only way to tell is to fly somewhere, then find out that your experience there is not going to be like your friend's was.

Racist heatmaps?

VladRussian23• 13 years ago

"how black people are seen" - i don't think it can be answered by one number on the scale from 1 to 10. For example, Russians are pretty racist, nationalistic chauvinistic, antisemitic ... you name it, basically Equal Opportunity Haters ... and there are a lot of disrespectful jokes about black people as well. On the other side - we drank a lot with the black students we had at our University and at other places and the girls liked them as well.

then find out that your experience there is not going to be like your friend's was.

yep, he may be a cool guy and you're a party pooper or vise verse :)

auctiontheory• 13 years ago

Reminds me of this old joke:

A CIA spy is on his first day scouting Moscow. Fluent in Russian, he is confident of blending into the crowd. First, he stops at a store to get an apple. The lady there gives him a big smile, "Morning Mr American, how can I help you?" Shocked, he quietly buys an apple. Next stop, an old lady on a park bench. "Morning ma'am, can I have the time please?" "Sure, Mr American, it's 9.15." He's really worried. Is his disguise that thin? He meets a cop and asks directions. Having received the usual "Certainly Mr American, it's the third block on your left," he asks, "Excuse me, how do you know I'm from the US?" "That's easy," replies the policeman, "you're black."

pessimizer5• 13 years ago

I'm sure a few linear-esque metrics could be teased out, but yeah, it's more complex than that.

I'm definitely a party pooper:) I'm often suprised by the amount or racism that can be directed at you in places where there aren't any black people to be angry at, though.

istorical• 13 years ago

Hey, I'm building something that aims to answer exactly these kinds of questions. It's still early in development, right now there is actually a site-breaking bug causing a ton of pages to timeout :( , but I'm hopeful that in a year from now you'll be able to find answers to all sorts of questions like that. It's called www.istorical.com, and it's a site dedicated to sharing information about what it's like to live in any city or country. It's got user-submitted q&a about what it's like to live there, user-submitted videos showing what a city or country is like, and very soon it will have user-submitted AMA's from travelers, expats, and just people who live in a city or country. I haven't quite taken off my dev hat and put on the marketing hat yet, but look forward to your wish being granted (hopefully).

Relevant (but unanswered, unfortunately) questions on the site I'm building:

http://www.istorical.com/countries/china/questions/57724

http://www.istorical.com/countries/china/questions/57733

pessimizer5• 13 years ago

I'm interested. Make sure to see color.

peter303• 13 years ago

For me living in China as a white American student in the 1980s was to wake up to minority prejudice. That is to be treated different, sometimes better, sometimes worse than native Chinese. Its something I had not felt in the US. An amusing thing was is that I could understand what people would say about me in public because they assumed most foreigners did not understand Chinese. Or to visit a tourist site and read the prices in English ten times higher than in Chinese.

beachstartup• 13 years ago

i'm an american and i'm not white, or black.

at some point you have to just stop giving a shit what other people think of your race/skin color.

On Being Black in China

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