How to know when someone is in trouble in the water

http://mobile.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/family/2013/06/rescuing_drowning_children_how_to_know_when_someone_is_in_trouble_in_the.html

by pavel • 13 years ago

286 114 13 years ago

mobile.slate.com

swinnipeg• 13 years ago

The absence of screaming and waving seems obvious after reading it, I realize I am really am conditioned to think if people aren't screaming...etc they aren't in trouble.

That said there is definitely some lifeguard propaganda in the article (who knew such a thing existed?):

"From beginning to end of the Instinctive Drowning Response people’s bodies remain upright in the water, with no evidence of a supporting kick. Unless rescued by a trained lifeguard, these drowning people can only struggle on the surface of the water from 20 to 60 seconds before submersion occurs.”

parfe2• 13 years ago

A drowning person will endanger his rescuer by instinctively climbing onto the highest point available (the rescuer's head).

If you see someone drowning, alert a lifeguard if possible. Depending on the situation, the proper action might require the rescuer to counter intuitively drag the person under water. On the other hand, if no life guard is present, don't just let someone drown, but saving them is a risk.

source: I was a "victim" for lifeguard training.

hluska4• 13 years ago

Just curious...let's say that you see someone drowning, you aren't a trained lifeguard, and there aren't any lifeguards around. Could an untrained person rescue that person safely? Any tips?

voidlogic• 13 years ago

On the other hand, if no life guard is present, don't just let someone drown, but saving them is a risk.

If you have to do this, my thought has been it is best to approach the drowning person from behind as to make it harder for them to grasp you in their panic.

qrybam2• 13 years ago

Agreed - saw this happen on a boat. People were diving from the boat into the sea. One fairly large guy who couldn't swim decided it looked like fun and followed suit.

At first no one realised how bad the situation was, with the next person jumping soon after. Within 20-30 seconds someone asked "hey, is he drowning?" and 4 guys (not trained as lifeguards) swam over and struggled to keep him afloat, even with a dozen foam float "sticks", he almost took them all down with him. He was quiet, there wasn't much splashing, he was trying to keep afloat with his arms and wasn't kicking with his legs at all.

It was scary and in retrospect hilarious; the guy has since gained a legendary status in the office although it could have turned out very differently - possible nomination for a Darwin award.

rdl2• 13 years ago

Most drowning victims are children, so they're not really strong or heavy enough to be a serious threat to an adult who is a decent swimmer (or possibly even able to stand in water where the child is drowning). It's still worth being aware of, and using a life ring or pole or lifejacket or something, but if there were a 5 year old child drowning in a pool, I don't think "might drown me too" would be a realistic fear. (obviously there are ocean/river situations where anyone would be at risk)

minikites• 13 years ago

This get re-published every summer for good reason. Drowning happens frequently and it's theoretically preventable if people knew what to look for.

Also, be careful if you have to save a drowning person. The drowning response will cause them to instinctively push you under in an effort to get above water, so make sure you have your own floatation device so they don't end up drowning you.

zachrose• 13 years ago

IIRC, half of the year's drowning deaths in Finland I occur during the solstice, which is happening this very instant.

ender7• 13 years ago

Beware: it is very dangerous to attempt to rescue a full-grown person who is drowning. A person who is drowning has temporarily lost their mind and will happily drown their would-be rescuer in an attempt to stay above the water. Approach a drowning person from behind and hold them above the water by their armpits.

clarkmoody5• 13 years ago

Better yet, get a stick or rope and pull them to safety. They will grab onto whatever is within their grasp.

antoko2• 13 years ago

did you mean to contradict the article or did you not even read it?

Throughout the Instinctive Drowning Response, drowning people cannot voluntarily control their arm movements. Physiologically, drowning people who are struggling on the surface of the water cannot stop drowning and perform voluntary movements such as waving for help, moving toward a rescuer, or reaching out for a piece of rescue equipment.

mikeryan2• 13 years ago

Approach a drowning person from behind and hold them above the water by their armpits

Unless you're a trained lifeguard this is poor advice. As stated above you don't want to get within touching/grabbing distance of a drowning person. Get some sort of intermediary between you and them, a stick, rope, shirt, pants whatever. Something that you can drop if you are at risk.

To the point below about their instincts of not grabbing it. Don't leave it out where they need to reach for it. Hit them in the head or arms with the stick or piece of clothing and they'll grab it. My first few pool rescues with a lifebouy I'd leave it within their grasp and they'd not grab it. If I hit them in the head or hands with it they'd grab it every time.

mcclung• 13 years ago

I had a lady next to me start to drown and grab me in a pool when I was getting my diving certification. Despite having a supply of air, wetsuit, fins and buoyancy control device on, she got that drowning sensation when her respirator came out. Once she had someone to hold onto, sanity was restored but I totally got why drowning people are dangerous from then on.

pjungwir• 13 years ago

When I was in Boy Scouts they said if a drowning person was pushing you under, you should dive to make them let go. Anyone with experience know if that works?

noja• 13 years ago

Your best bet is to knock them unconscious, them pull them safely to shore. It's safer for both of you.

Edit: actually perhaps not the best idea.

gmrple5• 13 years ago

Most lifeguards that I know are trained not to jump in after a drowning victim EVER unless they have a strong floatation device--the lifeguard tube. Supposedly most of the larger ones should be able to support 5 people. Drowning victims are so dangerous that even people who are trained can run into issues.

giardini• 13 years ago

Red Cross lifesaving taught me a similar technique: approach the drowner from behind and underwater. You go under the water and feel your way up from his legs to the back of his thorax staying in contact. When you get to the surface you cross an arm over one shoulder and under the other and pull the drowner backward into a prone position face up. Surprisingly, once you've got a hold on someone in the water its easy to stay behind them no matter how they move.

I never gave much thought to the effect this might have in open water if the drowner did not see you approaching - suddenly something underwater is grabbing him and controlling his movement - Jaws!8-))

WA• 13 years ago

If the drowning person puts you in danger, because he/she clings too tight and there's a risk that both of you will drown, the solution is to punch or even break their nose to cause a shock so that the person lets go. Or pull/push him/her under water and wait until they are unconscious and then attempt to rescue.

spullara• 13 years ago

This device on IndieGogo seems really promising:

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-seal-wearable-swim-mon...

It is just too easy not to notice a drowning person, especially a child, even if they are right in front of you.

rdl2• 13 years ago

How does it work? I assume it's a water pressure sensor which requires more than a foot or two of water to activate, and some kind of timer, combined with the transmitter? (otherwise a collar doesn't really work -- I can keep my neck immersed in water all day and not drown...)

pcrh2• 13 years ago

From another site [1], it seems as if it monitors the amount of time spent underwater, and is activated if this exceeds a preset amount of time.

[1] http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/28/seal_syst...

knowaveragejoe• 13 years ago

This seems like a great concept, but I'm curious as to how it works, how reliable/comfortable it is to wear, how it deals with false positives, and so on. The fundraiser page doesn't seem to address any of that.

b0rsuk3• 13 years ago

"""How did this captain know—from 50 feet away—what the father couldn’t recognize from just 10? Drowning is not the violent, splashing call for help that most people expect. The captain was trained to recognize drowning by experts and years of experience. The father, on the other hand, had learned what drowning looks like by watching television. (...) Drowning is almost always a deceptively quiet event."""

I think there should be a law against showing kicking&screaming drowning people in movies. I'm not a fan of censorship otherwise, but here we have a clear case where movies occasionally lead to lost lives.

clarkmoody5• 13 years ago

You would need a much more comprehensive overview process to eliminate misleading information from movies, even if it were limited to life-threatening misinformation!

One instance I can think of is MRI magnets. Often, a medical drama will cut to someone pushing a button and the magnet coming on. In reality, the magnets are always on and bringing metal objects within range can have dire consequences.

The whole movie Home Alone depicts life-threatening pranks on the burglars. c.f. dropping a clothing iron 3 stories onto someone's face.

mikeash• 13 years ago

Banning the portrayal of drivers looking at their passengers while talking to them would probably save more lives than banning inaccurate portrayals of drowning.

b0rsuk3• 13 years ago

At least in the case of Home Alone, actors show signs of pain and even injury. From there it's a matter of magnitude. In case of drowning, it's the difference between nothing happening and someone dying. Not someone drowning slightly.

nether• 13 years ago

OT: What's with the triple quotes? English isn't Python. They have different syntaxes.

samspot3• 13 years ago

My pet peeve is when people are bleeding to death onscreen as their friends just watch. What a great opportunity to give just a bit of lifesaving information by showing them apply pressure to stop the bleeding.

Dove• 13 years ago

It's not just drowning. There's actually a whole category[1] on TV Tropes for things portrayed in dangerously misleading ways. The misleading portrayals of heart attacks and first aid in general are some of the things that worry me the most.

[1] (Warning! TV Tropes is the most addictive website I know of. Proceed only if you know how to handle it and/or have nowhere to be for several hours.) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TelevisionIsTryin...

sneak• 13 years ago

Fingers resting on triggers when not shooting, then, too.

"I shot Marvin in the face!"

dspeyer2• 13 years ago

    color: rgb(102,102,102)

Seriously?

Why do so many publishers make their content so hard to read?

(Once I fixed that with inspectElement, the article was good.)

ivank3• 13 years ago

I'm guessing this happens when a designer has a bright LCD screen and thinks black on white has too much contrast.

Filligree4• 13 years ago

Which is often the case. Reading pure-black on pure-white hurts my eyes, so I often have to tune this knob the other way.

The actual problem is the lack of a brightness-controlled colorspace.

JoelSutherland• 13 years ago

You're using chrome on windows right? The linked URL is their mobile site and the text container has been 3dtransformed forcing grayscale antialiasing which Chrome does poorly.

Check it out on Firefox or IE and you'll see what I mean.

It will look much better on a mobile device as well. If you drop "mobile." from the url you'll get their normal desktop site which also has much better type in Windows Chrome.

dspeyer2• 13 years ago

I'm using Firefox.

I do have some ambient light. Maybe if I replaced the curtains in my window with true blackout curtains this would look ok.

kaoD• 13 years ago

I can confirm the article. Almost drowned once in a river: I let myself go with the current and, once I tried swimming back, realized I accidentally went into strong currents.

I tried swimming harder, but eventually got tired and sunk. Despite my friends being about 20/30 meters away from me, they didn't realize I was drowning. I couldn't scream for help nor do anything but trying to stick my head out and breathe. I couldn't stay afloat long enough to cause any water splash either.

Fortunately I touched a rock that was sticking out from the bottom with my foot and stood there for a bit to recover and go back.

Be careful this summer!

crescentfresh• 13 years ago

Glad you made it. I had a similar experience, in strong currents. It was a long time ago but I cannot think of it without my heart racing and panicking all over again.

chetanahuja2• 13 years ago

This. Strong currents in natural bodies of water (rivers, ocean... even close to the beach) will overwhelm even the strongest swimmers/divers. Overconfidence will kill you, literally.

pcrh2• 13 years ago

I had a similar experience... At about age 11, I decided to swim across a river and 3/4 the way across I got cramp (or something) and panicked. While I was dipping below the surface, a motor boat even circled around me without doing anything. Luckily my older sister was nearby and called for help; two guys then dived in from bank and pulled me out.

tomsaffell• 13 years ago

I can offer some advice on swift-water river safety.

1. avoid swimming in moving water unless you know it and everything downstream of it very well

2. if you're boating (canoe, tube, etc) on swift moving water always wear a personal flotation device. no exceptions.(a)

3. if you find yourself in moving water, swim lateral to the flow - never upstream

4. the safest orientation of your body is lying on your back, feet downstream (though this isnt the most effective for moving laterally, so this is best used through rapids, for example)

5. swimming across eddylines can be difficult. the easiest way is to do a torpedo stroke, which is like an alternating front crawl stoke / back stroke, with your body rotating around its long axis with each stroke. I would link to a video of it, but I cant find one...

a) - i've swum in tame swift-water in downtown Denver w/o a PFD, and I've swum (accidentally) in raging swift-water with a PFD. The former was far more unpleasant, and resulted in more swallowed water.

gmrple5• 13 years ago

Try searching for corkscrew stroke, here's a kid trying it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVLTXKGE7TE

qrybam2• 13 years ago

Ditto. I remember my drowning in a swimming pool very vividly. I was around 9 at the time, couldn't swim and was sitting on one of those foam floats. A friend of mine (he didn't know about my lack of swimming ability) pushed me off the float right in the middle of the deep end. This is where the article's description really hits home with me:

1. I wasn't able to stay afloat in my vertical position (as described)

2. I tried to scream for help, but ended up with a mouth full of chlorine water each time

3. No adults/kids were reacting to me at all

4. I accepted (3) and decided to take matters into my own hands

5. Took the biggest breath I could (wasn't very big), stuck my head underwater, opened my eyes and "swam" as hard as I could to the edge of the pool ... I blacked out on the way

6. An adult found me unconscious underwater, holding onto the side of the pool, blue in the face

7. CPR

8. I'm here to tell the tale \o/

(edit: formatting)

Filligree4• 13 years ago

Doesn't sound like the drowning reflex kicked in for you, there.

clarkmoody5• 13 years ago

Here[1] is the publication where the article gets its description of Instinctive Drowning Response. Skip to page 14 (pdf).

[1] http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg534/On%20Scene/OSFall06.pdf

Mindless2112• 13 years ago

I spent a couple of summers as a lifeguard at a college swimming pool, and I have seen this first-hand.

As a lifeguard, I was well trained in how to rescue but not particularly well trained in how to recognize a drowning victim. There was a time I watched a boy bobbing up and down in the water, looking upward, mouth open, but not appearing to gasp for breath, the whole time wondering if he was in trouble. Luckily he was less than two yards from his mother, and she eventually picked him up. (Also luckily for me, she didn't think anything of it, or I might have been in trouble -- she probably didn't recognize that he was actually drowning either!) Only when I read the original publication of this article was I certain that he had been drowning at the time.

A side-note so that I don't seem like a complete abomination of a lifeguard: I did save a drowning victim at that pool. She displayed the TV-portrayed signs of drowning after jumping off the diving board with no idea how to swim. Probably due to the adrenaline rush, the rescue is a bit fuzzy, but that's where the lifeguard training kicks in.

mistercow• 13 years ago

She displayed the TV-portrayed signs of drowning after jumping off the diving board with no idea how to swim. Probably due to the adrenaline rush, the rescue is a bit fuzzy, but that's where the lifeguard training kicks in.

My guess is that the reason was that she was not drowning yet. She probably would have if you hadn't saved her, but in her case she had a few pre-drowning moments in which to react. The difference would be that she consciously knew that she was screwed as soon as she was in the water, since she didn't know how to swim.

gmrple5• 13 years ago

Yes, something most people don't know about drowning is that it is typically defined as the point at which breathing is interrupted and the person is mostly motionless, usually perpendicular to the surface of the water. Sometimes before beginning to drown a person will become a distressed swimmer, which is what people think of as stereotypical drowning behavior. People in this stage often need rescuing, but they are not drowning. The trick is that while people often go from distressed to drowning, people that are drowning may never go through the distressed stage.

mikeryan2• 13 years ago

Another bit that makes drowning deceptive is that most of the time the victim will be in relatively shallow water or fairly close to the edge of the pool. If you can't swim its usually hard to get out to deep/open water (unless in a beach break) so a lot of kids that struggle will do so within a foot or two of being able to reach a wall or shallow enough water to stand up in.

pdonis2• 13 years ago

Which brings up the obvious advice: if you're going to take your kids to the beach, or to the pool, teach them how to swim! Teach them young enough that they haven't yet developed an instinctive fear of water; then they'll be natural swimmers for life. (I learned to swim at about age 6 months.) If you can't teach them yourself, find a program at the local pool or rec center.

samspot3• 13 years ago

I don't think you really learned to swim at 6 months. At that age you are learning to be comfortable with the water, but you have a ways to go before you can actually swim. Your parents probably told you that you were able to swim because you were successful in whatever they were trying to do at that age.

source: My children are in infant swim classes.

nsxwolf• 13 years ago

A video would be helpful. I'm not confident I could recognize all those signs from the descriptions.

roc• 13 years ago

Only lifeguards need to be able to spot it at 50'. And they'll get training.

For everyone else: you only need to spot the silence. People in water make noise and move. If anyone isn't doing that, talk to them. You don't have to say "hey, are you drowning?" just "hi" or strike up some small talk.

If they aren't responding and don't seem to be doing anything but bobbing along with their mouth barely above water, that continued silence is what should urge you into further action.

VikingCoder• 13 years ago

There's a video linked at the end of the article:

http://mariovittone.com/2011/07/video-of-instinctive-drownin...

DigitalJack• 13 years ago

Http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=X1mVcSUttX4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DX1mVcSUttX4

cfn• 13 years ago

This happened to me once in a pool and until I read an article like this I didn't even know I was drowning. I was 5 or 6 and was in a swimming class. I remember going up and down and not being able to say anything or do anything but that. I don't think anyone noticed me but I may be wrong. What saved me was that the pool bottom was slanted so every time I went down I touched it just a bit but enough to push me slowly to the shallower end.

samspot3• 13 years ago

It is really scary to think that you could have drowned in swimming class. I will definitely be attentive of my own children when they are learning. Glad you survived!

Arjuna• 13 years ago

In addition to the point of this piece, please read the following for comprehensive guidelines with regard to water safety:

http://www.redcross.org/prepare/disaster/water-safety

For those heading to the beach, please be aware of the rip current phenomenon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_current‎

http://www.ripcurrents.noaa.gov

muraiki• 13 years ago

I've seen articles like this before, and whenever I read them I think about a time on vacation when I could quite possibly have drowned. I had traveled abroad with some friends and went into relatively shallow water. However, I hadn't swam at all in many years, and I was also out of shape.

We decided to have a swimming race. About halfway through I was completely exhausted, both from being out of shape and not being a very good swimmer in the first place. At that point I stopped to rest and realized that my feet couldn't hit the bottom. I recall my mouth being above and then below water, along with panic. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I got the idea to try and backfloat, which I was able to do. After resting a bit I was able to direct myself to shallow water again.

At the time I didn't think too much of it, but when I reflect upon it I think that I was drowning. My friends were indeed not far away, and I couldn't yell or thrash my hands around. It's scary to consider that I could have died while so close to them!

diminoten• 13 years ago

I worked as a lifeguard in high school and had to save a kid once.

I didn't even think he was having trouble until one of the counselors yelled, "DIMINOTEN!" He was taking a swim test and looked just like all the other kids, except he wasn't going anywhere.

Being a lifeguard is a silly job. 99.999% of the time you're doing nothing but sitting in a chair, trying not to fall asleep. It's that ONE time when you need to be paying attention that's critical and matters absolutely.

gmrple5• 13 years ago

Far too many kids don't take the job seriously, and I wouldn't call it their fault. Their employer needs to keep them well trained. Unfortunately this is not nearly as common as it should be.

aerolite• 13 years ago

what is "diminoten"?

webdestroya• 13 years ago

his name

hyborg787• 13 years ago

From my relative who was a Boat & Water Safety person in Minnesota regarding this article:

This is a song I have been singing for years. Drowning is silent, fast, and deadly. One of the best videos I have seen on this subject is "The Reasons People Drown", produced by Dr. Pia. It is excellent, chilling, and should be watched by everyone who is responsible for or who cares about small children and non-swimmers who venture near the water.

Drowning victims are helpless, and without intervention, will be dead in one minute or less. Most drowning victims perish within 6 feet of safety, and that safety often is a person who could have rescued them if they had known what was happening within arms reach.

Re-read the description of a drowning victim and then compare it to the sight of a child at play. There are many similarities and if you are not vigilant you will never notice the differences.

If your child is near the water, you need to be near your child. And, it is not possible to adequately monitor a child in the water and read a book at the same time. Pay attention to the child only, and don't try to keep an eye on more than two at one time!

garycomtois• 13 years ago

The link was for the mobile slate site. This is the non-mobile version:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/family/2013...

Cyranix• 13 years ago

If this topic interests you, please consider engaging with Colin's Hope if you are able. I used to work with a member of their board of directors, and I know from direct experience that the organization is incredibly passionate about their cause.

https://www.colinshope.org

jacobparker• 13 years ago

Wow, that was uncomfortable to read. I had forgotten about a time where this happened to me in a regular in-ground pool (I was very young.) I can confirm the description of the article: arms extended, cant speak, mouth going in and out of the water with my head tilted up etc.

A friend noticed and got me to safety; my dad was confused and I felt very weird/blurry about how I had reacted.

Thanks.

kayhi• 13 years ago

If you're going to swim in open water (not a pool) and there is a lifeguard, tell them you're going to go swimming and ask if there is anything you should be aware of.

They often have insights into certain areas, underwater terrain, currents and the influence of tidal changes. Also by talking with them, they will be more aware of your location.

JakeSc• 13 years ago

I'm not sure if you did this on purpose, but THANK YOU for posting the mobile version of the site. It removes a lot of the distracting spam from the main version.

I think more people should try to find a mobile version of a submission before submitting it.

capex• 13 years ago

grab the drowning person by their hair, while approaching from the rear.

ComputerGuru• 13 years ago

This is an excellent article, it was posted around 3 years ago from the original source and there was some great discussion at the time, revolving around some of the questions and opinions currently being discussed here in the comments.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1492835

It's good to see it resurface, definitely one of the more memorable articles I've ever read.

lemming• 13 years ago

Agreed - the articles and the commentary are fascinating.

coin• 13 years ago

Unrelated, but why does Slate disable pinchzoom for mobile devices?

stretchwithme• 13 years ago

Some day cameras will monitor what happens in a pool and software will be good enough to figure out when someone is drowning, releasing the nearest floatation device from the bottom of the pool.

japhyr• 13 years ago

I first read this article right around the time my son was born. I soon realized this is a really good mindset for supervising young children as well. If your kid is playing out of sight and you don't hear them for a while, go find them and see what they are doing.

"Listening for silence" is a really good skill to learn.

hvflykrur• 13 years ago

When I was 10 I was at a water park and they had some sort of artificial wave generator in one of the pools. It wasn't until last year (when I first read the article) that I realized that what I experienced in that pool was Instinctive Drowning Response. Naturally I realized at the time that I had been in some sort of trouble, but not that that was drowning. The power of the whole "kicking and screaming" trope, I guess.

One of my classmates from school actually swam by me in the pool (while I was drowning) and tried to get me closer to a rope which was hanging by the pool's edge... and when he failed he promptly swam off and did nothing more. (Not that I think that he realized the full gravity of the situation and simply wanted me to die or anything.)

atulagarwal• 13 years ago

Well, I had almost drowned once. I had a personal flotation device and I knew swimming! We were out rafting, and I had swayed away from the raft swimming in light rapids (the instructor said its very safe - which it wasn't). When I realized that the rapids were overwhelming me, I tried to stay afloat (a flotation device and know-how of floating works - but I guess I was panicked!), but did not help too much. It took me sometime to realize I was drowning, and in the meantime I had told another raft that had approached to help - that I was fine (overconfidence?). When the reality hit, it was bad, and I could not even scream. I did wave my hands, on to which my friends on the raft threw a rope, and I survived.

Even swimmers (I consider myself below average) can drown. "Panic" is to blame here. The following article explains a similar case quite here (search for "scuba-diving"):

http://www.gladwell.com/2000/2000_08_21_a_choking.html

How to know when someone is in trouble in the water

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