Ask HN: Developers' jobs in Europe. Best cover-letter, cv practices.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5892265

by drinchev • 13 years ago

29 50 13 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Dear European HNers,

I was wondering is there any special requirements ( like stronger cover-letter OR no need for good cover-letter, 4+ pages CV vs. <4 pages CV, etc. ) to apply for web-developer jobs in Europe ( specifically in Berlin and other tech-hubs in Europe ), since I know that there could be a bit difference than what it is in the US.

I've recently read blog posts about "How to find a job in IT" but they are all specific for SF, NY and nothing about European Startups / Tech companies.

I recently applied with a cover letter, which inclues the company's logo created with CSS3, HTML by me @ codepen ( It looks like a trend now ), but I don't know if the HR team in Europe will think that this is unserious and will skip my application.

Can anyone suggest some best practices. Thanks!

bergie2• 13 years ago

In my experience (living in Berlin but not looking for a job), you mainly need to have a strong GitHub profile, and need to show up in some relevant meetups and talk with people. There will be offers.

zerr• 13 years ago

I guess that promotes no-value projects with the purpose of only to be mentioned in CV, thus polluting the open source world...

I mean, for various reasons, quite a lot of experienced engineers have nothing to show on github or bitbucket, and _really_ contribute to the open source world.

bergie2• 13 years ago

GitHub shows the projects you contribute to, not only the repositories you own.

I would also like to take exception to polluting the open source world. Having more code out there is a good thing. In any case there are already multiple libraries and widgets available for whatever purpose. Maybe some of these will come up with something new?

EvaK_de6• 13 years ago

Cover letters are not all that important here in Germany.

Your CV matters a lot more, according to my experience, but it should be no longer than 1-2 pages.

Projects are what matters, so show them the code (e.g. with a GitHub profile).

drinchev6• 13 years ago

10x That's what I'm doing right now. Although there are some projects than I can't show them ( perhaps, in person I could, since they are copyrighted ) I have a good ~10 years experience and some open source projects I have participated.

EvaK_de6• 13 years ago

Open source experience is great, when applying for a job at a startup! I think you will have good chances.

atesti• 13 years ago

I'm from Germany and find cover letters very important: They give you an idea whether the candidate has done basic research about your company.

Also it certainly shouldn't do any harm to include one

contingencies• 13 years ago

European like continental or European like UK? There's a big difference. In my ~2009 experience rocking up similarly with zero local experience (as an Aussie), offers I gathered wound up at x EUR on the continent vs. 2x GBP in London.

However, living in London is expensive and basically sux after summer. If I were doing it again I would go to a city or town on or near the Mediterranean. For my weak and nerdy constitution, if it's not far southern Europe, it's too cold in the winter.

I did alright and had a few pages, I wouldn't worry too much about format. Remember being from the US you are going to tend to be subconsciously sterotyped as culturally ignorant, loud and egocentric so maybe try to consciously tone it down a bit.

PS. You perhaps should have mentioned up there you are in Berlin already.

drinchev6• 13 years ago

Yep, pretty much I'm aware of the salary. I'm not from US :) I just moved here and I'm trying to exit from the freelancing business that I'm doing since I can remember ( I miss team work ;) )

mtrimpe• 13 years ago

What kind of company are you aiming for? Enterprise or startup? They're worlds apart.

If you're looking for a solid enterprise CV, I've had pretty good results with mine at http://michiel.trimpe.nl (the picture and recommendations section are optional.) For big companies LinkedIn is also key and recommendations there are very valuable.

For blanket applications (e.g. submit on website) cover letters are a must and you must show that you have read about the business and explain in a few sentences why you feel your profile would fit well with the (goals of the) employer. As for format, the body of your introductory email message is often considered synonymous with your cover letter.

(P.S. This is based on the Amsterdam market. Europe is big and every country is different so advice from a German would be better still if you were looking for a job in Berlin)

drinchev6• 13 years ago

I'm looking for international funded startups > 2-3 years old. Yep, I pretty much hate to manage old PHP code. I'm more excited and oriented to new tech solutions, so Enterprise would be a no-opt. ( Also I have no CS-degree . My university degree isn't even CS-oriented ).

hcho3• 13 years ago

Put a picture on your CV in the UK and it directly goes into the bin. No one wants to be liable for discrimination.

EvaK_de6• 13 years ago

DON'T put a picture on your CV in GERMANY and it directly goes into the bin. :)

tty74• 13 years ago

I had my CV checked at a recruiting event at my University here in Germany. While officially the employers are not allowed to require a picture or the age, I was told that both is a must. To my knowledge in Germany you should include a decent sized picture, your birth date, and your nationality. If you do not include this, your risk your application to be trashed, at least with larger and more traditional companies. The cover letter should be no longer than one page, the CV must not be longer than two pages.

It is also important to directly address the person in charge, so call them if in doubt and ask who is responsible and if you should include a picture.

CWIZO• 13 years ago

Hmm. I've had my picture on the CV (SO careers profile basically) and had no problems. But, my GF has been applying for jobs for over a month now without any luck. She also has a picture on her CV but she is not in IT (more like administrative jobs, reception, etc...). Do you think this might be the cause of the poor response rate (ie. non existent) she has? Would really appreciate more insight into this.

Jabbles• 13 years ago

A 4 page CV would just be thrown away in the UK. 1 page, unless you have 20 years of experience - then maybe 2.

A cover letter shouldn't have their logo on it.

drinchev6• 13 years ago

That logo was a link to codepen, just a demo that I'm interested in the company. It was definitely not in my cover letter as attached image or smth.

janjongboom• 13 years ago

As someone doing quite some interviews for a Norwegian company a cover letter should just be a couple of lines describing some practicalities, like why you'd want to join my team over any other team in the company and from which office you'd like to work. Other than that I'll mainly look at online presence, GH, SO, etc. CV is not that interesting because I probably don't know the companies you worked before anyway.

nicholassmith• 13 years ago

Basic rule of keeping your C.V. short and sweet, because if every candidate is a 2-3 page C.V. and 25 candidates apply the person responsible for reading them is going to be in for a long, annoying day.

Cover letters are fine, don't worry about it too much though as they're normally just scanned over. If you're going for frontend have some work in a portfolio online they can view. Backend consider having some open source work on GitHub, even if it's just a few snippets of useful code you use every now and again.

automatik• 13 years ago

I am a developer and IT manager/director in Berlin.

I will say this: in most small to medium IT companies (in Berlin) a cover letter is not needed or even wanted in most cases -- speak with your work and your CV. The cover letter is just excess "stuff" that we have to read on top of everything else. Larger corporations may appreciate this more.

A CV should be kept VERY short and to the point (i.e. 1-2 pages). A "creative" CV is fine if you are applying for a creative position, but outside of that keep it simple and avoid being confusing. Note that Germany has its own CV format which often includes your picture, marital status, and so forth. Adhering to this is a plus in most cases!

Example projects you participated in (such as a URL to a site you developed) or code samples (i.e. GitHub) are an enormous plus that will put you at the front of the line (if it is good code, naturally).

If you are applying from outside the EU, it is important to stand out because of the extra cost and process (which is relatively quick and painless in Germany compared to some other countries, such as England) for your visa and residency. There is, however, a large shortage of talented IT professionals here and most companies regularly seek out candidates from outside Germany and even outside the EU.

In Berlin, you can likely get away with not speaking German, though it is a "plus." In many parts of Germany (i.e. Munich), the majority of positions will require/assume you speak German plus some level of English proficiency.

drinchev6• 13 years ago

Thanks. That's the most relevant (geo-oriented) answer to me. I guess I have to reduce the CV size.

Gmo2• 13 years ago

Like what you can see through all the comments, there is no "European way of applying", even though there is officially a "European type CV", but don't know much about it.

I just went through the process recently (in France), and what I know is true for sure in mainland Europe is :

* No more than 2 pages. Make it 1 if you can (I worked quite hard to make fit everything I wanted into 1 page, but if you really had a lot of projects showing a wide range of skills, it can be hard). If you have less than 5 years of XP, I'd say only 1 page.

* Picture : This depends per country. In Germany, it's practically mandatory (except maybe in some more "international" startups, don't know about that). In France, it is not, but the latest trend is to put one. Reading elsewhere in this thread, in the UK, it seems you should not put one.

* Cover letter : in France it is highly appreciated (especially if there is an HR person/department) and you should put good time into it and definitely tailor it to the company you are applying to (you can still have pattern though, that helps to write them much faster).

* Github profile can help but that really depends on which type of company you're applying to I think.

* Degrees : That really depends. I guess (hope) in the startup world it is less important, but in "normal company" in France and Germany, they value it a lot (one would say too much) but of course, you can't change that. You can try to counterbalance it in your cover letter though.

Hope this helps.

desas• 13 years ago

I'm curious, what possible use does a picture have in the hiring process? Doesn't it open up companies to accusations of discrimination?

Gmo2• 13 years ago

I guess it does not otherwise they would not ask it :)

I guess it's just cultural. I'm not German so I can't answer more than that.

As for France (I'm French but I was not working in France for the past 6 years), I have the impression it's just a trend that comes and goes.

nraynaud• 13 years ago

frankly, I was hiring in France, and I don't think it really made a difference to me (and I don't see the point either). Actually I would not hire based on CV/cover letter. I directly paid a restaurant to most candidates who could show some code.

creature• 13 years ago

I'm a web developer in London, who's moderately involved in hiring. Most advice you'll get is subjective, but here's my two pence.

A 2 page CV is the norm, though you won't get dinged for a page either way - especially if the content is good. A cover letter can help, especially if it's focused on the company - why you want to work for them, what skills you can bring & why they're relevant, etc. It's also a chance to show off any side projects or Github accounts; if it was a front-end job you applied for, the logo in CSS3 sounds ideal. Don't worry too much about formality of language; polite but friendly is fine. Aim for 2-3 paragraphs. I wouldn't include a photo; that's a little weird in the UK job market, though it's generally understood to mean "Oh, the candidate's from another country."

cantlin• 13 years ago

In London:

1. Include a one to two paragraph cover letter that you wrote specifically for the opening you're applying for. Make the quality of English very high. Use simple letter-style formatting, address in the top right, company logo in the top left if you have a freelance brand that you're using.

2. Include a two page CV. Simple formatting please (I am going to print it and write on it). Mine has worked well for me (though in retrospect is too wordy!), http://hackerb.io/cantlin.pdf, you can get one from http://hackerb.io.

3. Make both documents PDFs. Anything else is a pain for me.

4. Include links to your web presence, if you want. They can be in the cover letter, CV or email. You'll be Googled anyway so it's best to be proactive, especially if you have stuff on Github, SO, etc.

5. Companies vary, but be mindful of potentially needing to get your application through an HR department who at best will be searching for keywords from the job post.

6. Startups are a different game. Your CSS3 logo is a good stab (though make sure you back it up with meat). If I were looking for a startup role today I would be focused on making connections through events, social media and the open source projects they use.

hipsters_unite• 13 years ago

For most jobs in the UK I think this will still be the norm. The last application I wrote was exactly like this - Letter with 2-page CV, GitHub and links in the footer.

TamDenholm• 13 years ago

Might be worth noting if you're going through a recruiter they specifically want an MS word doc so they can remove your contact details and put their logo on your CV. The more shady ones will even add keywords and stuff to your CV.

drinchev6• 13 years ago

So what's the point in doing this, when employers can just google my name and make direct contact?

616c• 13 years ago

Your hackerb.io idea was something I wanted to do a while ago and still did not get around to doing to buff up my programming skills.

Very, very useful and cool. Keep up the good work!

robeastham2• 13 years ago

My little side project supports points 1 - 4. It has a neat disposable cover letter system built in.

I'll continue to slowly bootstrap MightyCV, it's a resume creation app with hacker leanings. It has integrations with HN, github and StackOverflow along with some other cool features. You can see an example of what one looks like here:

http://robeastham.mightycv.com

If you like the look of it you can sign up for a beta invite at:

http://www.mightycv.com

I'm hoping to redo the management interface over the next few months and push out a largish update to the service along with some bug fixes.

robeastham2• 13 years ago

MightyCV is a London based venture too!

lostnet• 13 years ago

Xing is still very popular among German speakers, though linked in has been making quick progress.

A professional looking portrait photo is essential here in Switzerland, and age based discrimination is legal? and the norm, so not disclosing your age may waste everyone's time.

Here they also send around a cover letter and a bunch of documents from past employers, but they don't seem to expect that from foreigners.

edem• 13 years ago

I think that you should read this:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ResumeRead.html

I have rewritten my CV according to this and it is working out fine!

praguebaker• 13 years ago

What about Prague ? Tech scene has evolved rapidly in past few years. (Skype, AVG, Avast, Red Hat, Geewa, Socialbakers, Good Data, Zoom International and many others...) + Startupyards,Node5 incubator + The Hub.

Check this article : http://www.janrezab.com/prague-beats-berlin-with-its-tech-sc...

seporaitis• 13 years ago

Here's what worked for me:

1. I always prepared (exactly) 2 page CV.

2. One thing, that paid off (I think) I always prepared CV for specific Job offer. Takes time, but exposes the best of you in paper for the position you are applying for.

3. I have a belief that "If text looks good on paper - it will look good on screen", not necessarily otherwise. Thus I print my CV, read it loudly, mark and correct bits and pieces with pencil, edit the electronic form, rinse & repeat until I don't have anything to edit.

4. I wrote cover letter twice in my life - basically it was among the lines of: "I would love to work at your company, because you are cool at something I am interested in working on and I think I have the skills you need (references to CV, showing my experience in what they needed)."

So far so good, through the years I applied to companies in Lithuania, Denmark, Sweden and UK (London) - I got offers from all of them. I applied for Software Engineer position in PHP or Python companies.

Leander_B3• 13 years ago

European developer here having worked across 3 countries in Europe and also involved in hiring/recruiting.Here's my advice:

Sending your application If (bigger) startup has an internal recruitment/HR who will review you CV first. As sad as it may sound, make sure their 'keywords' match yours in the CV. Except for the internal recruiters with a technical background (close to none), they will just go through the list of keywords needed for the role. It's more or less a bulletproof approach to pass the first filter which is essential if you even want to be considered. It's a pity that persons who have almost zero knowledge about the technologies we use have so much impact and power on deciding whether or not you'll be good based on their criteria (again; keywords).

Most internal recruiters don't care about a cover letter at all, with a big part of them not even reading it. Therefore, keep it very short and rather invest time in a good CV.

You may need to adapt your CV specific to each role specifically (focussing on the role requirements), so be ready to have a CV that can easily be adapted to a specific role.

CV 2 pages is ideal (especially if you've held >2 roles), first block is your personal information, followed by your work experience (latest position first). Make some bullet points of what your tasks where at each role. Bullet points are always a win in a CV, always have readability in mind, no HR/Hiring Manager wants to get a long wall of text CV after having gone through 20 previous one's.

After that, you can always put your Github or SO accounts (more likely if startup), but I would rather talk about this with the Hiring Manager during the phone interview, and if they are curious ask them if you can send your account via email, this also gives you a good opportunity to add some extra details about you which can make you stand out better and get you 'remembered' longer and more positively if you are in their inbox. You would be surprised how many (older) technical managers still don't know SO or Github.

Then comes your education, just very short, only mention colleges/uni if so.

No profile picture

Always print your CV and look at it skeptically and ask yourself "Would I like getting a CV like this?"

My experience with places I've worked London Quite hard to even get a response, I think companies in London have an easy time hiring with many good candidates. Also no relocation packages or anything like that.

Holland Many tech jobs available and good chances to get hired when not native. Dutch people are quite keen on international employees.

Spain Good supply/demand ratio in favor of demand. From what I've seen tech companies in Spain have hard time hiring quality employees. Also pretty international (Barcelona, Madrid, Malaga).

Other I understand the question is more about the first phase of applying, but when you secure an interview at a company, learn as much as you can about them, you might be asked for it.

Basic flow of an interview in Europe is: Company introduces itself -> you introduce yourself -> Q&A specific for the role -> question round where you are free to ask questions. When they ask you to ask questions, do so! Company owners/Hiring Managers/HR love to talk about their company and it's a good way to find out about the culture, and it makes you interested in the company which is an advantage. Startups usually don't give you any tests or tasks during the interview, they usually stick to asking technical questions. Last but not least, if you are very interested in working at a company and have a interview at their office, make a short presentation. Especially for technical roles this is highly appreciated. Put some effort in this (5-15hours) and use whatever you can or is related to your role. The presentation should match the "you introduce yourself " part of the interview and go a bit deeper into your knowledge. Present it with confidence. When they like it, you will see the interview will get a lot more relaxed and if you've given a good insight in your knowledge/projects you've worked on a lot of the technical questions will already be answered or skipped.

The presentation part was twice successful for the 2 roles I ever applied for. I've also advised it to 3 friends of which 2 got hired, of which both the Hiring Manager said they were impressed by the presentation.

lrem• 13 years ago

By presentation do you mean actual slides, or simply having a speech ready?

Leander_B3• 13 years ago

Presentation as in 'going there with your laptop'. Keynote is fine but if you're good with HTML/CSS and some UI you can make a more impressive and interactive presentation.

Ask HN: Developers' jobs in Europe. Best cover-letter, cv practices.

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