Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/article/316418/8/10-News-Investigators-discover-short-yellow-lights

by mhb • 13 years ago

119 127 13 years ago

wtsp.com

jluxenberg• 13 years ago

Predictable consequence of red light cameras. Most of the revenue (over 50% in Kissimmee, FL [1]) goes to the vendor!

[1] http://www.kissimmee.org/index.aspx?page=636

harold• 13 years ago

I haven't timed it yet, but I'm pretty sure this is happening in my town here on the central calif. coast.

rhizome5• 13 years ago

Very common: http://www.shortyellowlights.com/

bryanlarsen3• 13 years ago

If they increased the "all-red" time to match, then good for Florida. They've increased their revenues, their roads are safer, and those who are running yellows are getting what they deserve. Running yellows is illegal and far too common.

If they didn't increase the all-red time they are making the roads more dangerous. People get accustomed to the length of the yellow & all-red time. But if the total doesn't change, only the relative proportions it shouldn't have an impact on safety.

codex2• 13 years ago

How goes giving someone less time to stop before someone else goes not decrease safety? Why not shorten the yellow time to zero?

bryanlarsen3• 13 years ago

If they decrease the yellow time and increase the all-red time the same amount, people have exactly the same amount of time to stop.

abduhl3• 13 years ago

There is a portion of time where all of the lights at the intersection are red. The person you are responding to notes that as long as this portion of time is increased such that the total time that the intersection has for someone to clear it (i.e. - time that the light is yellow plus time that the lights are all red) stays the same then safety inside the intersection should not be impacted.

This says nothing about safety leading up to the intersection (e.g. - people slamming on their brakes).

jzworkman• 13 years ago

If the "all-red" time is increased to compensate, then the time before someone else goes does not decrease. However, if they are just decreasing the yellow time, and keeping the all-red the same(making the total time from yellow to opposite direction green shorter) then I agree that safety has been lowered to increase profits, and this would be super un-ethical.

rdtsc• 13 years ago

As someone pointed out it doesn't if the total red+yellow time is still the same (i.e. red time is replaced with yellow).

The counter-argument is well it increases chance of rear end collision when people stop suddenly. And that is true.

The counter-argument to the above is well they should be driving with enough assured distance between vehicles and below the speed limit.

To "maximize" revenue they could be making the legally correct assumption that everyone is keeping a good enough distance and driving below the speed limit, and they'd actually have a legally defensible position as much as I hate to admit it.

(It is also hard to argue informally that they don't know what they are doing, they know perfectly well, as others pointed out, if this was a start up maximizing revenue we should be cheering, right, right...?)

pasquinelli3• 13 years ago

actually, i wonder if there wouldn't be fewer rear end collisions if there were no yellow lights. people might be more cautious when approaching an intersection and less likely to ride someone's ass.

Goronmon• 13 years ago

Driving through a yellow light is not illegal.

Also, is shortening yellows actually making the roads safer or is it just a way to increase revenues? Seems like one likely cause of shorter yellow lights is that more people make harder stops at intersections, result in more rear-end collisions.

alexmchale• 13 years ago

More rear-end collisions also leads to more tickets and more revenue...

mikey_p• 13 years ago

In many places, such as where I grew up in Ohio, the language regarding yellow lights is to "clear the intersection", and that if you are able to stop, you must not enter an intersection when presented with a yellow light. In other words, treat it like a red light, unless you absolutely cannot stop.

Of course in practice most folks will go for it if they think they can clear the intersection in time. Some may even accelerate, and having excessively long yellow lights may encourage that behavior even more, despite it being illegal.

kstenerud• 13 years ago

Lengthening the yellow light duration reduces the number of red light violations: http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/timing-myths

Even worse: Red light cameras make intersections LESS safe by INCREASING accident rates:

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/18/1835.asp

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/11/red-light_cameras_l...

This only makes sense since you're removing decision power from the person most qualified to make the decision (whether it's safe to stop or not).

abduhl3• 13 years ago

Your first link is a red herring. We are trying to increase safety, not reduce red light violations.

Your other two links make a common mistake in traffic safety debates by assuming that an increase in accident rates is a decrease in safety. Look at the types of accidents that are increased or reduced by red light cameras and you'll see that they generally do make intersections safer by reducing high speed, side impact collisions. This comes at the cost of increased low speed collisions, namely people running into someone's bumper as they slam on their brakes to avoid the red light ticket which is a psychological (risk aversion) problem, not a problem with the technology itself.

joshuamerrill• 13 years ago

There's an inherent conflict of interest when cities, counties, and states rely on traffic tickets as a source of revenue. The all-too-tempting incentive is to maximize that revenue, either by abusing civil rights or, in this case, by endangering public safety.

doki_pen3• 13 years ago

It won't necessarily endanger the public if they add more delay between one light turning red and the other turning green.

benmccann• 13 years ago

It can if you're used to the lights being yellow for longer, it suddenly turns red, and you slam on your brakes and get rear-ended.

mistercow6• 13 years ago

If you do that, you'll still cause more people to slam on their brakes to avoid running the red. Slamming on the brakes increases the risk of losing control of the vehicle, and of being rear-ended.

flogic• 13 years ago

If people stop harder, they're more likely to get in an accident doing so. If you don't have ABS, stopping harder increases the odds that you'll skid. Also you're more likely to get rear ended if the person behind you isn't paying attention.

rhizome5• 13 years ago

You're not responding coherently, but it's indeed a fact that delayed green lights create safer intersections.

Here's a news story from 35 years ago on the topic: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1913&dat=19780310&...

maratd• 13 years ago

> It won't necessarily endanger the public if they add more delay between one light turning red and the other turning green.

This is usually referred to as a delayed green light. They are absolutely terrible for public safety.

There are drivers who look at the opposite light to get a cue as to when they should go.

It also pisses regular drivers off, because it looks like absolutely nothing is happening for everyone and they have to sit there and wait for no good reason. A yellow light, even a long one, at least shows some sort of activity and progress.

dopamean2• 13 years ago

I haven't done a study or anything but after living in Florida for 5 years (coming from New York) I have to say that the motivation seems to come from a serious lack of other revenue sources for the state. There is no state income tax and so fee revenue is huge for the state and local municipalities. A few years ago, in central Florida, voters voted to decrease property taxes. When the measure went through revenues plunged. In response all fees at the DMV were literally doubled and a lot of public employees lost their jobs. The way Florida handles paying for itself makes no sense to me.

adnam• 13 years ago

If you extract too much honey from the hive, the colony might not survive the winter.

aresant• 13 years ago

This is a terrible abuse that pisses me off.

But it still struck me as funny how many of us HN's (self included) jumped to the defense of Weebly for "optimizing revenue" in the "When a Startup Sends a Passive-Aggressive Email Every Day " story that was trending earlier today (1)

If Florida's red-light system was my start-up I'd be pretty damned pleased with myself for figuring out how to drive more revenue with "no cost".

(1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5704860

jlgreco8• 13 years ago

Slight difference, of many: Spams aren't causing traffic accidents.

rhizome5• 13 years ago

Neither are yellow lights. Cross streets don't turn green until the yellow is gone.

sp332• 13 years ago

If the purpose of a government was to make money, this might be more acceptable.

kolbe• 13 years ago

George W. Bush: Oh yeah? Well let me ask you something, Kumar, do you like giving hand jobs?

Kumar Patel: No sir.

George W. Bush: Do you like gettin' hand jobs?

Kumar Patel: [smirking] Heh, yeah.

George W. Bush: Yeah well, that makes you a fuckin' hypocriticizer too

georgemcbay3• 13 years ago

I work close to a fairly rare "no right on red" (in California right on red is legal unless signs prohibit it) intersection.

Without fail, near the end of the month there will be a cop car sitting under the bridge overlooking the turn for hours just waiting for someone to make the turn. Shamelessly sitting there, in the dark and under a bridge, blocking half the rightmost lane of a busy street, causing a far greater safety concern than would be caused by anyone taking a normal right-on-red at that corner.

thrownaway24244• 13 years ago

So you sympathize with people who can't be bothered to observe posted traffic regulations?

georgemcbay3• 13 years ago

No, I don't really sympathize with people who get caught there very much nor did I say I did. But I sympathize far less with the cop who is doing way more to endanger my safety than the other drivers are, all in the name of scoring some easy stops to meet an obvious quota.

For visual reference, this is the intersection:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=32.917322,-117.2356...

The people getting popped for right hand turns are the ones to the left in this image. The cop sits under that bridge in the shadow area without any lights on, taking up over half of the rightmost (leftmost from this view) lane. The difference in brightness between daylight and under that short overpass bridge is very high.

talmand4• 13 years ago

He's not sympathizing with those people, he's pointing out the police officer that can't be bothered to observe posted traffic regulations.

SonicSoul• 13 years ago

he's pointing out the irony cops endangering traffic safety in supposed aim of improving traffic safety

cobrausn3• 13 years ago

And despite all these tickets being issued in the name of 'safety', people still continue to slightly miss the yellow, not quite come to a complete stop before turning right, and fail to make a snap judgement correct 100% of the time. The accident rate remains fairly constant or goes up as the city rakes in millions (and the company that makes the camera gets theirs as well, which can be used to lobby for more cameras).

100% enforcement of traffic laws calculated with machine precision is mindbogglingly stupid, and proponents willfully bury their heads in the sand regarding the conflict of interest and the eventual outcome of such an arrangement. So yes, I sympathize with people committing what amounts to normal human error, and despise those who seek to profit off of it.

duairc• 13 years ago

ACAB

doki_pen3• 13 years ago

It is a common misconception that officers have quotas to issue a certain amount of tickets per month. The quota is actual for how many traffic stops they make. You'll see behavior like this from cops who haven't met their quota, but it's not about the money.

dbrian• 13 years ago

Maybe not in large cities with some sort of oversight but in small rural towns with only 2 or 3 cops, it helps pay for their jobs and keeps them employed.

itg• 13 years ago

I can't wait for self-driving cars to become commonplace. Wonder how much of a hit these departments that rely so much on red light camera and speeding tickets will take.

danpat• 13 years ago

It's not only that. A good buddy of mine is a criminal defence lawyer. He says that a goodly portion of his drug-related cases begin with traffic stops. By goodly portion, I mean 50+%.

We've talked about it at length. There would be major changes in law enforcement practices if automated cars obviated trivial traffic law enforcement stops.

talmand4• 13 years ago

Nah, they'll just start pulling cars over to check the firmware on your car to make sure it's up to date.

quackerhacker• 13 years ago

I'd really love to see how a Google street car (those autonomous vehicles) would handle a yellow...in my book, yellow still means speed up lol.

troebr• 13 years ago

The same thing happened in New Jersey, but the state took the matters in hand, and effectively suspended the cameras last summer (http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/is_your_local_red_l...). I was flashed in Newark, after a very short yellow light on a 55mph road where normally yellow lights are long enough so that you do not have to dangerously slam the brakes. According to another article I read, it is supposed to be 4 seconds for 40mph roads. I was flashed after what looked like at most 2 seconds of yellow light.

I never received anything, and I found out about the yellow light abuses.

roboneal2• 13 years ago

An appropriate partial quote of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged:

“Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken."

"But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt."

thrownaway24244• 13 years ago

After you turn 14 you'll realize there is actually never an appropriate moment for an Ayn Rand quote.

chm2• 13 years ago

I have never read Ayn Rand, but I have heard of her before.

Why are such quotes inappropriate?

talmand4• 13 years ago

After you become an adult you'll realize that being smug does no one any good.

Any quote has an appropriate moment when it directly relates to the topic at hand, despite where it originated from.

jrajav• 13 years ago

And at another point, possibly later, you realize that blind rejection is just as intellectually lazy as blind acceptance.

cobrausn3• 13 years ago

After you turn 30 you realize that not everyone will believe what you do or be right about everything, but when they are right about one thing and you disregard it 'out of principle', you look the fool.

Udo2• 13 years ago

Why is HN so obsessed with Ayn Rand? It's a serious question that I've been meaning to ask for some time. I never heard about her before joining Hacker News, and since then it's been at least once a week. Is this a Silicon Valley thing?

scott_karana• 13 years ago

It's more of an American thing. Her philosophies fit in well with existing Individualism.

Her influence was never particularly large, and has faded over time, but left a cultural mark. (See all the objections to the GP? :)

roboneal2• 13 years ago

I actually hoped my comment would actually spark a discussion on the actual substance of the quote.

Apparently, I've seemed to have only succeeded in flushing out the pro and anti-Ayn Rand camps. My mistake.

ianstallings• 13 years ago

Surprise surprise, the King wants to squeeze thew peasantry again with another tax.

thrownaway24244• 13 years ago

For those of you who didn't bother reading the article, which I assume will be all of you since this topic normally drags up the least-able critical thinkers on this site, I'll summarize it for you: the Florida DOT lowered yellow duration to a level appropriate for the speed limit on the road. The duration might not be long enough for speeding cars to stop. So in addition to being colossal asshats, people who are speeding might also be getting more tickets from red light cameras.

And in conclusion, drivers are the most self-entitled scofflaws in the world.

pasquinelli3• 13 years ago

hear hear!

aasarava• 13 years ago

Was anyone else pleasantly surprised to find that this is a well-researched, plainly-told article -- the kind you rarely expect from local news? This should be an example on how to investigate and report impactful news.

Mz• 13 years ago

The emperor still has no clothes and the god's are still crazy.

(I mostly walk, thankfully. And don't live in Florida.)

kunai2• 13 years ago

This is unsafe for pedestrians.

The yellow light means "Clear the intersection," not "Slow down." The purpose is to give time to people crossing the sidewalks to finish walking over to the other side. Shortening them is a safety hazard for pedestrians like me who don't own a vehicle.

I don't live in Florida, but this is shameful and disgusting.

talmand4• 13 years ago

For some reason, that has never occurred to me. That is an excellent point that reducing the yellow not only increases the likelihood of traffic accidents but of problems for pedestrians as well.

steve-howard• 13 years ago

I'm pretty sure the flashing-hand signal is what gives pedestrians time to clear the intersection (often with a counter!).

JensenDied• 13 years ago

I've seen enough crosswalks that go from solid red hand to a flashing red hand immediately, that I now ignore the flashing red hand until the street light turns yellow.

Shortening it makes it dangerous for a lot of parties.

abduhl3• 13 years ago

This is absolutely incorrect. Traffic lights are for vehicles. Pedestrians should be obeying the pedestrian signals and your cue to "clear the intersection" is the blinking red hand. Traffic lights do not switch to yellow until after the pedestrian signals are solid red hands.

This obviously only applies where pedestrian signage exists.

kunai2• 13 years ago

Obviously, you and I live in different areas. Where I live, the traffic lights turn yellow even when the yellow light has not become solid.

Then, there's also the issue that many pedestrians are still in the process of crossing when the hand turns red.

josephers• 13 years ago

The yellow light does mean "clear the intersection", but its purpose is not to give pedestrians time to finish their crossing. There are many things that have to clear the intersections, not just pedestrians. Plus, the decrease they talk about in Florida is only by fractions of a second, anyway.

Here in Toronto, we have an additional two seconds of "all red" light after any yellow lights, to give time for left-turning vehicles to finish their turn.

kbenson• 13 years ago

Plus, the decrease they talk about in Florida is only by fractions of a second, anyway.

The decision was made for poor reasons. There's nothing preventing them from making the same decision for the same reasons again, effectively increasing the reduction of time. It's important to call out poor behavior in government lest, even if it's slight, lest it become institutionalized and then exacerbated.

sehugg3• 13 years ago

I think short yellows are dangerous, especially with loaded vehicles. US DOT should set standards for minimum yellow light times. Here is one such proposal: http://www.shortyellowlights.com/standards/

EDIT: Linked to proposed standard and equation

Anechoic• 13 years ago

US DOT should set standards for minimum yellow light times.

They do, through the MUTCD: http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/knowledge/faqs/faq_part4.htm#q32

sehugg3• 13 years ago

I meant actual times, the MUTCD only says you must use "engineering practices" in determining the interval. The ITE equation was included in my link -- however it optimizes for reduced red-light violations, so it's no wonder it's not used in these cases.

simmons• 13 years ago

Huh, it's interesting that there's actually an engineering standard for yellow light times that local governments don't seem to acknowledge. I've always been annoyed at the dangerously short yellow lights around here (Denver), compared to the rest of the country. (I think they were short even before we had red light cameras.) When I'm traveling in other states, I often find myself automatically hitting the brakes when I see yellow, only to sit at the yellow light for a few seconds. :/

doki_pen3• 13 years ago

I wonder how it would be if we eliminated yellow lights altogether and instead had a countdown on the green light. At the very least it might save gas, as you could see that the green light ahead will turn red long before you could hope to hit the intersection, so you could coast in. Of course, you'd need to have an adequate "all-red" time for it to not be dangerous.

gtz57• 13 years ago

You can kind of do this by looking at the clock on the pedestrian sign. I would think it would help more with traffic flow than saving on gas.

walid• 13 years ago

I keep hearing this a lot but if I was "embroiled" in all of this, I would sue the state for entrapment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

Excerpt:

Two competing tests exist for determining whether entrapment has taken place, known as the "subjective" and "objective" tests. The "subjective" test looks at the defendant's state of mind; entrapment can be claimed if the defendant had no "predisposition" to commit the crime. The "objective" test looks instead at the government's conduct; entrapment occurs when the actions of government officers would have caused a normally law-abiding person to commit a crime.

MrSourz• 13 years ago

I find the news article rather sensationalist, because the reductions on the yellow light timing are now based off the limit rather than the greater of the limit or average speed. While this does increase the number of ticketed incidents it

It seems reasonable to ticket those who would be impacted by this, for if the forumla is correct it should just impact speeders.

I agree with the sentiment shared by others that the all stop time should stay the same to protect drivers from the speeders.

mos2• 13 years ago

I know this has been done in Sacramento for years. Yellow Lights at large higher speed (40mph) intersections (like Fair Oaks and Howe) have the yellow light set at the CalTrans minimum safe approach speed, which is often 25 mph. This is on a double lane left turn with traffic at or above the posted speed limit.

Good luck fighting that ticket, well within the California State law.

Too bad they don't have to set the yellow light timing consistantly. That probally wouldn't give you the 2x increase in citations.

scragg• 13 years ago

I despise these traffic cameras. They are popping up everywhere in the DFW area. So many people I know get rolling right on red tickets... it's absolute BS. It has nothing to do with safety and everything about money. There are so many instances where you can check if it's safe to make a right without having to make your wheels completely stop. I can't imagine many accidents being caused by a vehicle moving <2mph while making sure they were clear as opposed to coming to a complete stop. These photo enforced lights make me nervous as all hell, as I approach, first sign of yellow and I find myself slamming on the brakes.

https://plus.google.com/115905827925711420560/posts/LauLtrvS...

Example of a right turned that ended in a photo enforced ticket.

Edit: fixed the link.

Strilanc• 13 years ago

This is a perfect example of mismatched incentives.

When a deterrent is working, you get very few violations. Rewarding the detection of violations is incentivizing exactly the wrong thing. You're rewarding for making things worse!

I don't know what incentives would work, in the case of red light cameras.

- Accuracy on unmarked test cars going through the intersection? (testing is expensive)

- Clamping the income from fines below some threshold? (the threshold might be manipulated)

- Rewarding low accident rates relative to other intersections? (probably too unstable)

scarmig2• 13 years ago

All fines from traffic incidents go into a separate piggy bank that's refunded equally to taxpayers at the end of the year and can't be drawn on for departmental or government funds.

How we get from here to there, I don't know.

will_brown• 13 years ago

The actual video from these camera should not be admitted as they violate the rules of evidence. Out of 1,000 cases this attorney from the Ticket Clinic claims to have won all 1,000 on this argument alone. I have yet to take one to court, but I imagine I will, as an FL attorney not a violator.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/learn-secret-how-you-can...

ender89• 13 years ago

The problem with red light cameras is that they encourage blind obedience to rigid traffic laws, and not driving safely as dictated by the road conditions. There are plenty of legal situations where a driver might "run" a red without having done anything "illegal" or dangerous, such as getting caught in the middle of an intersection. I'm in favor of ripping them all down, as their only real function is to suck money out of the taxpayers pockets.

mindstab• 13 years ago

So below the federal recommendation and worse, not uniformly but more often on lights with cameras leading to non standard light behaviour. Because we really want unpredictable behaviour from our traffic system... that can only lead to safer roads... like variable length steps on a stair case.

These people should be charged with public endangerment.

edit: Also as someone pointed out, less warning to pedestrians to clear the cross walk and less time to do so. Very safety conscious.

scarmig2• 13 years ago

It might be surprising, actually: having significant uncertainty can be much safer than (false) certainty.

There was a town that took down all stop signs and traffic lights, and it significantly decreased traffic accidents and injuries.

jimktrains2• 13 years ago

Aren't Yellow Light times determined by engineering and it becomes a public safety issue if they are shortened?

vlasev• 13 years ago

I am a canadian and I've driven in cities like Vancouver and Calgary. The yellow lights in Calgary hold so much longer (maybe even double the time?). I found it much more comfortable to drive there than in Vancouver.

That said, I've been thinking for quite some time now that it might be best to just add a count-down number on the lights to show you how many seconds are left until the green light turns yellow. If you are going to beat the light, might as well speed up a bit from afar than by a lot near the intersection.

sehugg3• 13 years ago

Also: 6 Cities That Were Caught Shortening Yellow Light Times For Profit (2008) http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-caught-shorteni...

t0mas88• 13 years ago

If you think this is a way to collect money, try driving in the Netherlands. Our normal speedlimit is 130 km/h, but we have limits of 100 km/h on wide and empty 5 lane highways in the middle of nowhere enforced by average-speedcameras (so 100% chance of getting caught even if speeding by as little as 2 mph)

Oh and the fine of 10 mph (16km/h) over the limit is 174 USD... but really, this is about safety, not about the money :X

greg5green2• 13 years ago

$174 USD isn't unreasonable for a 10mph over ticket in the states. I'd expect that plus court fees here.

Florida shortened yellow lights to increase red light camera revenue [video]

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