Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/10/net-us-usa-immigration-technology-idUSBRE94910K20130510

by RougeFemme • 13 years ago

53 61 13 years ago

twoodfin6• 13 years ago

Can someone explain to me why expansion of visa programs for skilled workers is so controversial? Hell, Mitt Romney wanted to "staple a green card" to every STEM diploma.

Why the need for these three dimensional Vulcan chess tactics if that's the goal?

My guess is because labor unions and the Democrats (generally) don't want to expand visas for skilled workers without "comprehensive" legalization. But I am definitely biased so I would not at all mind an alternative explanation.

metaphorm2• 13 years ago

I'm not an expert on this issue either but I think you're understanding it correctly. There are interest groups on both the left (protectionist labor unions) and the right (nativists) who are hostile to immigrant workers, in both high-skilled and blue collar positions. The "3 dimensional vulcan chess" approach here is an attempt to get congress to actually vote on the law even though it pisses off some entrenched groups. Its really really hard to get congress to do anything at all, let alone do something that pisses off some of the activists in the party bases.

spamizbad• 13 years ago

Leaving FWD.us has nothing to do with immigration. Zuck's political advocacy group FWD.us also funnels money to http://www.americansforaconservativedirection.com/ -- Which also advocates for the Keystone XL pipeline and more drilling etc. (And also the mostly DOA 'Gang-of-8' Republican plan for Immigration reform)

US politics is pretty cynical, but not quite cynical enough to blatantly play both sides like this.

auctiontheory• 13 years ago

Expanding visa programs will be controversial so long as large numbers of Americans are unemployed.

This particular group is controversial (also) because they are taking a position on controversial non-immigration issues, such as oil drilling and pipelines.

"Controversial" doesn't mean it's right or wrong. It means that many people have strong arguments and emotions both for and against.

twoodfin6• 13 years ago

Are you sure? Because at least in the conservative spheres I pay attention to (admittedly of the less populist variety) almost no one opposes skilled visa expansion. All the light and heat is about legalization. I get the impression that if President Obama went on TV tomorrow and said "Comprehensive immigration reform is a bridge too far right now. Let's simplify and expand the process of legal immigration for skilled workers", then he'd have a bill on his desk in a week.

wahsd• 13 years ago

That's because "immigration" in this country is actually veiled dilution of the worker pool, externalizing costs, lazy, inflation of limited resources and thereby self-perpetuating wealth creation, deflates source country pressures for improvement, and drains talent from other places.

It is a pernicious practice all around and only advantages the wealthy of the destination country, i.e., USA. It's destructive, poisoning, and exploitative all around for everyone else.

mynameishere• 13 years ago

Because Econ 101. Jesus fucking holy Christ.

Can someone explain to me why otherwise intelligent people are so deliberately ignorant on this issue? Rich bastards want to screw ordinary people. That's it. That is all you need to know. It's dead simple. It's freshmen economics. More workers=lower wages. This has been going on for centuries.

icebraining2• 13 years ago

Because immigrants are not really people, right?

tnuc• 13 years ago

Good thing North Korea is keeping workers out, that's why North Korea is so rich and has such high wages.

Where did you study Econ 101?

aspensmonster3• 13 years ago

The devil is in the details. What constitutes a "skilled" worker? The selling point of the H-1B program was that there really were high-paying jobs available that absolutely nobody state side was stepping up to the plate for, so they needed to bring in skilled immigrants who had the chops to take on these high-paying jobs. The imagery was that America's Best Companies were stalling because they couldn't find the "best and brightest."

Evidence suggests otherwise (http://www.epi.org/publication/bp356-foreign-students-best-b...). Now, I'm not saying you can't find H-1Bs with high salaries or genius intellects. The study linked simply says it's not a majority of the people coming in. Most of them are decidedly not "best and brightest" and certainly aren't pulling six figures annually. That is, the program isn't being used for its stated purpose. Rather, it certainly seems that the goal is _not_ to find local talent, even if it's there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU), because one wants to manipulate the meaning of "prevailing wage" and "qualified worker" to suit a lower labour cost margin.

As well, there are other economic indicators to consider. If there really is a widespread tech shortage you'd expect wages to rise. And you can see various market niches' wages spike at certain localized times of labor shortage. But you don't find high and increasing wages across the board, sustained for years at a time. That is, one of the key indicators of a crippling shortage, simply isn't there. The low unemployment rate in tech hubs like Silicon Valley is further perplexing in the face of a claim that the talent can't be found. When companies like Facebook whinge about having a hard time finding top talent, I get the feeling they're really just making an observation that finding people at the extreme of a bell curve is hard. Increasing the sample population doesn't make that search appreciably easier.

Mixed in with all of these observations, you'll typically find smaller details that make sense, even if they are latched onto bigger ideas that don't. A common objection is that of sending newly graduated foreigners back to their countries of origin rather than letting them stay here. I'd say it's a no-brainer they should be permitted to stay indefinitely. But that doesn't mean it's a no-brainer that we should rubber-stamp every single person with a tech background into an H-1B slot.

twoodfin6• 13 years ago

It's interesting to me that EPI is doing research/PR against expanding skilled visas. They're more or less a think tank/advocacy group for organized labor (check out their board of directors). Would they have a different agenda if the tech industry were more unionized?

Anyway, who cares if there's a "shortage" or not? If you're going to contribute hundreds of thousands of dollars to GDP, come on in! We'll find something for you to do!

pg• 13 years ago

The actual answer is much less colorful than the other answers in this thread. Increasing the number of visas for skilled workers is not that controversial. The problem is that it's part of a more general immigration bill, which is controversial.

blinkingled4• 13 years ago

Interesting to note that Musk himself is an immigrant (born in SA). The Reuters article speculates that he quit over an unrelated matter - the FWD.us group sponsored ads for senators who supported drilling oil pipelines in Alaska which apparently did not sit well with Musk.

rst• 13 years ago

The pipeline that FWD.us has been touting would actually be in the "lower 48" --- it's the proposed Keystone XL pipeline, which would be intended to transport a particularly dirty form of petrochemicals ("diluted bitumen", which is something like sand soaked in crude oil) across sensitive land (some proposed routes have it going over the Oglalla aquifer, which is a major reservoir for American agriculture).

twoodfin6• 13 years ago

Wait, is the objection about the safety of the pipeline (Why is it less safe than any of a dozen other pipelines?) or the facilitation of carbon emissions from burning the contents of the pipeline?

Forgive me for being blunt, but most pipeline opponents seem to emphasize the former when what they really object to is the latter.

blinkingled4• 13 years ago

I don't know how the pipelines fit FWD.us's agenda. Is it possible they were just supporting senators that supported immigration reform but also happened to support the pipeline? If so, it is kinda hard to blame the group.

lost-theory• 13 years ago

The ads:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y...

dmschulman3• 13 years ago

From my understanding, part of the controversy stems from FWD.us stating in general terms that they are lobbying for "immigration reform", but in actuality, they are lobbying for a very specific type of immigration reform, one that would only benefit tech companies looking for highly skilled and foreign (cheaper) labor.

FWD.us isn't advocating to solve the larger immigration issues the US already faces (a clear and present issue that needs resolution), but is merely taking advantage of a political situation to further their own interests.

dmschulman3• 13 years ago

I also applaud Elon for sticking to his guns and taking his philanthropy elsewhere. Tech people and VCs especially know that big problems are worth solving more than small boutique problems.

dfc3• 13 years ago

Tech people and VCs especially know that big problems are worth solving more than small boutique problems.

I almost threw up when I read this. Are you serious? What is it about tech people that makes us so wonderful? And why do you think the rest of the population is so simple minded?

Furthermore I thought the group Musk is leaving contains other tech people (at least as traditionally defined). Are you saying that since they do not see the big picture as Musk sees it that they are simple minded people not worthy of being called "tech people"? Do you think any of the people on the supporters page[1] are "true tech people that know big problems are worth solving"?

[1] http://www.fwd.us/our_supporters

jacoblyles4• 13 years ago

High skilled immigration is an issue that is a lot simpler where there is a lot more agreement. It ought to be much easier to move on that without considering the issuance of green cards to 7% of the population of Mexico.

adamnemecek2• 13 years ago

>> foreign (cheaper) labor.

[citation needed]

wtallis• 13 years ago

Why bother with the trouble of hiring foreign labor unless it's cheaper?

jacoblyles4• 13 years ago

The minimum salary for an H1-B software engineer in Silicon Valley is $84,000, which is on the low end of market but not egregiously low. You can check out the wage requirements here[1]

[1] http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesWizardStep3.aspx?keyword1=so...

zafka• 13 years ago

I like Elon Musk more every day. Someone who makes cool products that look to improve the quality of life for everyone, while still making some decent money from it. It would have been sad if he had not bailed when the group started pushing an agenda that was counter to his ideals.

bconway• 13 years ago

The group supported a number of senators' stances on immigration reform, some of whom also happened to support expanding pipelines for gas production. Elon Musk, CEO of an electric car company, decides to leave the group. Not much dot-connecting required here.

fiatmoney• 13 years ago

Fun fact: all H1B salary data is public. It's parsed and made searchable here and several other places:

http://www.h1bwage.com/

And if you dig a bit you can get the raw data:

http://www.flcdatacenter.com/

Elon Musk quits Zuckerberg's immigration advocacy group

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