Help, I want to quit the startup I founded

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5453341

42 58 13 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I'm cofounder for a startup. It's been about 8 months or so. It's killing me. I don't know what it is; I clash frequently with the CEO about dumb stuff. Sometimes I love the product, sometimes I hate it. I can't see anything else because I've had my head in it for so long.

I've always been a person with depressive tendencies, but this is slowly pushing me to the edge. I smoke weed every night otherwise I can't relax and feel good. My gf tells me I should go see a psychiatrist but that'd make finances hard. I'm getting some really low lows.

I don't know what to do, help.

PS: my ability to pay rent and visa situation are very much tied to my startup... it makes things crazy.

If I quit, I'm left with 0 money. I'm unemployable by now– I can't be in at work at a decent time, I can't do what a boss tells me to, I can't take any kanban bullshit– I would not survive 1 week at a tech company.

Should I just call it quits and try to just go teach high school math or programming at a community college or something? (or go to thailand and live on the beach for $100 a month or something)

CyberFonic• 13 years ago

How did you become a cofounder if you and the "CEO" don't see eye to eye? Tell me I'm wrong: Comes across like you got suckered into working for very little for some "business visionary".

Must be getting real cheap weed. Surely seeing a psychiatrist would be a better "investment" for your mental health.

Could you elaborate on why you wouldn't last 1 week at a tech company?

jordanleprapant• 13 years ago

We knew each other a little, and he was looking for a tech cofounder. I accepted. The "cofounder" title he offered me seemed shiny and respectable, now it almost feels misleading.

I am definitely working for a "business visionary", although he pays me decently and we have decent traction.

I wouldn't last a week at a tech company because I have huge troubles with authority and policies and rules etc. I've never had a "real job" in my life; always in not very interesting organizations (including academia) where my lack of discipline was tolerated.

throwaway14124• 13 years ago

> because I have huge troubles with authority and policies and rules etc. Are you 15? You sound tremendously immature.

iguana• 13 years ago

I know exactly how you feel. Having to show up to an office after working at your own startup is challenging, writing pointless unit tests and doing what a boss tells you after years of cowboy coding sucks. Take a short break from work (2-3 days) and catch up on sleep and any errands that make you stressed. Evaluate your life after that. Startups are a huge grind sometimes, and it's totally normal to burn out and hate it. If you're a cofounder, you should expect to burn out, otherwise you weren't working hard enough. After you take a break:

- you're valuable to your startup and difficult to replace

- the more traction your startup gets, the better your next job

- cofounder disagreement is normal, otherwise you're not engaged enough

- address any issues and don't be afraid to ask for justification if you disagree with anything, after all the value of a startup is to teach you how to make hard decisions

- is there anything interesting you think the startup should be doing, but isn't? Do it! - is there anything marketable that you want to learn, but it only relates to the startup tangentially? Do it!

djt• 13 years ago

sounds like you need to work on yourself first. Look into ways to increase your discipline (ie quitting weed potentially).

cortexman• 13 years ago

It can be tough but this is real life. You just have to deal with it. Don't sabotage your position - instead start planning a way out. You CAN make it in a tech company, it will just be a shift in habits. In the meantime work hard and exercise. Weed can exacerbate depressive symptoms especially in lieu of exercise. Best of luck my friend.

jasonshen• 13 years ago

Believe it or not, there are low-bullshit companies out there. And they are starving for smart, nice, and capable people. Given your visa is tied to your current startup, I would find a way to apply/interview while at your current position for as long as you can.

Meanwhile, I would have a larger conversation with the CEO. What is it exactly that makes working with him/her so hard? Can you discuss with them in a non confrontational manner?

Check out the book Difficult Conversations for help on this: http://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-What-M...

mrgordon2• 13 years ago

This. I work for a low bullshit company that is always looking to hire people and has sponsored visas. Don't assume that your company represents every company.

milkshakes• 13 years ago

Okay, I'll bite. I want you to know that what I'm saying I'm saying with love, as a bipolar technical co founder several times over. I find that people with mood disorders tend to either be very bad or very good at startups, depending on whether or not they have learned to manage their diseases. It sounds like you jumped in without learning to manage your depression first. It should be pretty obvious to you by now that a startup exacerbates the highs and the lows. What might not be obvious is that once you learn to deal with your depression, those same skills will transfer over to weathering the emotional roller coaster ride that comes with the territory of building and scaling a company. You have to fix your depression before you can expect anything to get better. Focus on that, first. A doctor would help, but isn't the only possibility. There are other options, from counselors to breakthrough.com to a copy of I'm O.K., You're O.K. and a good friend to talk to. And there are many things you can do for yourself, like exercise, take Omega 3's, keep a journal, and practice some form of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, hopefully with a professional, but if all else fails, you would be surprised how far you can get just winging it with someone who cares about you. I hope you feel better, soon. But don't be surprised or discouraged if it takes a while. Maybe this startup works out, maybe it doesn't. But if you do decide to "give up", at least don't give up from a depressed frame of mind. You'll regret it, trust me.

coolsunglasses• 13 years ago

I've been a technical cofounder a couple times before and am about to take another plunge.

I have to work around depression. Omega-3s, Vitamin D, exercise, good food, good people, and discipline have helped me to make it close to a non-issue.

Also listen to milkshakes, he's a good guy. :)

dinkumthinkum• 13 years ago

Wow, well I doubt many of us can give the best advice because your situation is so specific. Not every company is going to be doing kanban type stuff. If you hate this I'm not sure teaching HS math or programming is going to be a quick fix to your problem.

Perhaps looking for a new position while remaining your employed is a good idea. If you go work at a non-startup, you may be able to earn a better salary and have a less hectic workload and you can focus on yourself, via counseling or whatever, for awhile until you feel like you can jump back into a startup.

tzisc• 13 years ago

Don't be afraid.

Subsist. Accept that you may need to prolong the status quo for a period of time.

Conquer your vision, (i.e., accept its limitations and buy into what the CEO wants, or learn how to demonstrate value via Dale Carnegie or Ray Dalio's methodologies) or plan your exit strategy. With specifics.

Or alternatively, you could conquer yourself. But probably not in the environment you're in.

If you need someone to talk to, email me for my number. kqtgtq3pk at hushmail dot com. Tell me as much of your story in as few words as possible so I know it's you.

I'll be asleep in a few hours for around nine hours because it's late here. Good luck, my heart is with you.

orph• 13 years ago

I know how you feel. Txt me when you need an ear. We'll hang out, get drunk. 415-810-4267.

neilk2• 13 years ago

I have this vision of you meeting the guy and it turns out to be your cofounder. Awkward. :)

ChrisNorstrom• 13 years ago

I hope that's your google voice number. If not, you should get one, that way if people try spam calling or annoying you in the middle of the night, you can set your google voice to go to voicemail between the hours that you sleep.

nkallen• 13 years ago

I know exactly what I would do in your situation.

Tell the CEO you need to go to Thailand for 8 weeks to chill out. Avoid quitting so that you can keep your Visa. Strongly consider going to your primary care physician (cheaper than a psychiatrist) and get on an anti-depressant. (This will hard to do at the same time as leaving a country as your doctor will likely not give you a two month prescription to start.) Bring your GF with you to Thailand for some of the time unless you are comfortable traveling alone. The travel experience may be enough to get you out of your rut, but I would get on an anti-depressant as well. Also exercise. Twice a week is enough.

Ignore anybody who tells you to "deal with it" or "subsist". There is more to life than your first startup. Learning to cope with depression is a lifelong process and isn't solved by just sucking it up. Also depression is not really a unique and beautiful snowflake of a disease. A change of scenery and anti-depressants will work 90% of the time.

mrgordon2• 13 years ago

You're probably looking at $500 a month for the Thai beach situation, but yes it's good deal!

duaneb3• 13 years ago

Damn, I gotta go to thailand.

serf• 13 years ago

I was wondering that. Is 500 USD realistic?

rob-alarcon• 13 years ago

Watch this video, it's about the history of the founders of Airbnb, sometimes I feel like you do right now, and found "inspiration" in histories like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOytubycHOg

I also run a half-marathon or marathon each month, that helps a lot.

Keep on.

staunch• 13 years ago

Get that weed out of your system. Marijauana isn't the devil, but it can have a very significant impact on your mental state and perception of the world.

Avoid all drugs and alcohol for a month, so your mind can adjust, and then sit down and talk this shit through with at least two smart people you trust to have your best interests in mind.

jjjj9999as• 13 years ago

I hope this isn't downvoted, but you should realize that quitting marijuana suddenly will make his stress far worse for 2-4 weeks.

His real problem is some deeper misalignment with his emotions towards things. There's nothing bad about kanbans, they are tools used to help you get organized and get things done. There's also nothing bad about disagreements with your cofounder. The difficulty is that he's taking all of these things and reacting strongly to it. In all of my experience, I've never learned to teach this, but what he needs to learn is acceptance, and to live in the present. It's more important than ever to just give up control for a bit, let your cofounder do the leading. Taking on all the stress yourself is what kills you, and if you don't trust your cofounder, then you are taking on way more stress than you need.

pilooch• 13 years ago

Let me second that. Remain cold turkey for a little while, and grab a side project for consuming your energy on evenings. Some code you'd like to try on some new device, anything. And get medical attention, ask your friends for a loan if needed. This is life, love, work, in that order, not the opposite :)

Brajeshwar• 13 years ago

Not this bad but I have had situations where I want to quit everything, I was questioning everything I intend to do.

Why not take a long-ish no-work break. Leave everything for a while. Go somewhere - Thailand for a month or meditate in the Ashrams of Dharamsala[1], or the Osho Ashram[2] in Pune, India.

I'm sure your co-founder (CEO) will understand. After your break, go back - refreshed and ready to get back to work or be able to take a decision on what you'd do next.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharamsala

2. http://www.osho.com/

auctiontheory• 13 years ago

I could tell you exactly what to do (find yourself a good therapist, cut out the weed, and get an anti-depressant prescription) but instead I'll ask: what would you choose if you were taking a ten- or twenty-year perspective on your decision?

duaneb3• 13 years ago

Maybe grad school? Vacation? Learn the clarinet? It sounds like you definitely need some kind of escape from your job.

I highly, highly recommend seeing a therapist if not a psychiatrist. Your health insurance may cover that. If not, then what you're paying now for drugs you should try spending on a therapist one week, or whatever. At least give one a shot, it's amazing how much of your depression is in your head and can be resolved by working it out with a professional. And actual depression medication may also help when the therapy doesn't, and it will almost certainly work more consistently for you than weed. I won't say give up the stuff as it does seem to legitimately work for some people, but it also has bad effects that are easy to overlook when depressed because it's more of the same when you're not actively high: lack of energy, lack of motivation, lack of appetite. It's pretty nasty if you're unaware of it, and it doesn't mean you can't smoke again if you can figure out how to address those issues. But you should face this specific problem with as clear a head as you can manage.

But seriously, you are more important than your startup. Don't ever convince yourself otherwise, if Zuckerberg were feeling this shitty and I knew that facebook would blow up I would tell him the same thing. If you aren't making enough money at this place to pay for a therapist you might as well make that money doing something more relaxing, especially if you have this love/hate relationship with your startup; you can't be working at your potential if this is the case.

Anyway, if you're in a place now where you realize that there's a problem AND you're motivated enough to do something about it by posting here, then you're in a place where you have the power to address it before it really nails you later. It's not going to go away if you don't change anything. If you need anything, feel free to give me an email or give me a call.

richardjordan6• 13 years ago

As others have said - this isn't being censorious or moralistic about drugs - but step 1 is stop smoking the pot. Your mind WILL clear up after a week or two being off it and after a month or so you'll really notice the difference.

Contrary to movies like The Social Network, getting drunk and stoned all the time doesn't fit with the stresses of running a startup I'm afraid.

Burnout is an under-talked-about problem with startups. You are far from unemployable coming out of a startup. You just need a break and some time off to get your head clear. Depressive tendencies are not unusual for the kind of person drawn to entrepreneurialism.

If you can then take a break from your startup. Tell your co-founder that you need a couple of weeks off or you're gonna burn out. If they can't make that work then you don't want to be in a startup with them anyway, as there'll be more ups and downs and you need to have each others' backs during the tough times.

If this startup isn't working for you and you have no other option, getting out is not as drastic as it seems. The company will survive. You will survive. Things will not be as dire as you think. It just feels that way now and the combination of pressure and anxiety makes it hard to get a better perspective.

Being stuck in something because you feel financially bound to it is not a good thing - you'd be surprised the options that are available to you but it's hard to see them when you're in the frame of mind you are. That's not critical :-) ...it's a good thing - it means that when your mind starts to clear up you'll see many more options.

I've been in Silicon Valley for about 14 years now (really? damn I'm getting old). I've seen, and been through, every up and every down. If you want someone to talk to for a bit of perspective, I'm happy to listen any time. (Add a d in the middle of the two names my username at gmail for my email address). Perspective can help :-)

Either way, don't get too down. It's not as bad as it feels right now I promise.

richardjordan6• 13 years ago

One more thought, as someone a bit older and wiser than when I first went through these kind of stresses.

Startups are like girlfriends/boyfriends when you're young. When you find your first love you're convinced you'll not find anything this special again. You do anything to hold onto it. But it goes eventually. You're distraught. Then your second love comes along. This time it's the REAL DEAL. You have perspective to realize that it wasn't the end of the world losing the last one. You learned. You grew. Often then that one doesn't work out, you're heartbroken, it's the end of the world.

Except it isn't. The next one is the REAL DEAL, you were crazy for thinking the last one was... and so it goes. This isn't the end of the world. Take a break. Find support structures. Get exercise. Change your routine. Quit the pot. Perspective will come and it'll make you see things in a clearer light.

jaytaylor6• 13 years ago

In this case the substance abuse is a symptom of the bigger problems. Stopping drug use drugs is a good move, but alone will not fix him. It is escapism.

artursapek• 13 years ago

Who down-voted this? It's very accurate.

kumarharsh• 13 years ago

Escapism is a very dangerous practice, as it drives you to suppress the thoughts and decisions which hurt. What is ignored is that these exact things are the ones which actually "MATTER", and putting off dealing with these "devils" is a surefire way to drive you into further depression...

Drop that pot, and start dealing with your partner. Don't post stuff on HN and feel good about yourself.

TALK TO HIM. That is the only way the pain will ease.

austinstorm• 13 years ago

Agreed - the way out is the way through, I think.

jaytaylor6• 13 years ago

Stop being lazy. Nobody respectable ever got anywhere by doing what is most comfortable for them. This community is filled with hard-working collaborative people who when made aware of their own faults work hard to improve. Your use of "can't" is your biggest problem. If your belief system continually revolves around "cants" you will not ever be happy in this line of work.

richardjordan6• 13 years ago

I think that's an unpleasant and harsh response.

What part of the post suggested to you that laziness was the problem?

jaytaylor6• 13 years ago

Laziness:

".. I can't be in at work at a decent time, I can't do what a boss tells me to, I can't take any kanban bullshit– I would not survive 1 week at a tech company."

"Should I just call it quits and try to just go teach high school math or programming at a community college or something? (or go to thailand and live on the beach for $100 a month or something)"

hluska2• 13 years ago

First off, this is going to sound preachy, but you need to slow down on the weed for a little while. I know that you think it helps you, but it only masks symptoms and it messes up how you perceive the world. The problem with masking symptoms is that the underlying problems are still there. I'm not saying that weed is bad because it isn't. But in your state, it isn't good for you.

Second, ignore anyone who tells you to buck up or get over it. Seriously. Anyone who tells you to get over it has never been where you are. And therefore, they're not qualified to tell you a damned thing.

Third, if I were in your situation, I'd go to a doctor and try to get on anti-depressants. Then, I'd take a couple of weeks off and just relax. Go to the beach. Hang out at home. Play video games. Work on a project that you care about. Do anything but the startup. Maybe after a couple of weeks you'll be able to go back and work at a high level? Or maybe, after a couple of weeks, you'll realize that this startup thing isn't for you.

Worst case scenario, if a couple of weeks off and some anti-depressants can buy you another three months at this startup, that is another three months for you to save cash, and try to interview at other companies. Best case scenario, maybe you'll find your passion for it.

jaytaylor6• 13 years ago

re: buck up

Life is hard. You're not doing him any favors by pretending otherwise.

I'm not trying to minimize his problems. His problems are real and he needs to put the work in the change himself on the inside. Excuses, silver-bullet "professional" solutions and other escapist approaches are what got him into this dire situation. More of the same is not going to turn out happy.

hluska2• 13 years ago

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here...

Often, when people are going through a bout with a mood disorder, people who have never suffered from mood disorders will say things like 'buck up' or 'get over it'. Nobody would ever tell a cancer patient to 'buck up' or 'get over it'. But, people think it's acceptable to tell people with mood disorders to just get over them.

Mental illness is very real and trying to put on a happy face and ignore the problems is both dangerous and irresponsible. If the OP is ill, he really should pursue treatment.

neilk2• 13 years ago

Yeah, the Bay Area will do that to you, especially if you're on a visa. Your status, self-worth, and even your ability to stay in touch with your friends are all tied to giving some job 60-70 hours a week. I sympathize.

I think you're aware of this, but you're engaging in very unrealistic, all-or-nothing thinking. If you aren't in THIS startup at THIS time then you're totally unemployable and you waste your life on a beach in Thailand. Take some time off to clear your head (if I were you I wouldn't up the weed quotient, but that's me). I don't know that you need to jet off to a different country, if you're in California there are so many great places to relax within a few days' drive.

logn• 13 years ago

No, stick it out and start demanding change from your CEO and improvement in the company. That's why you're on board right? It's a startup. You're experimenting with business models and should be ready to change. So change! Make it a success. Nothing is written in stone in a startup. At the least you have some source of money and a work environment you enjoy. Make it better.

Also, seriously, the top comments are all about weed? Come on. There are more important issues such as clashes with the CEO and sucky product.

chgx• 13 years ago

FYI, you can't survive in Thailand with $100 a month..

paulocal• 13 years ago

i was hoping thailand would be the answer :(

L0j1k2• 13 years ago

Whatever anybody says -- of course my advice should also be lumped into the "with a grain of salt" category -- start jogging. Jog around the block (yes, half a mile to start). Stretch a little before and after. Repeat this twice a week and don't give up. Even the TINIEST bit of exercise can have TREMENDOUS effects on your depression. I've been at rock bottom, brother. My ex-wife left me for some other dude on Christmas Eve in 2008. At the time, I was a gunner on a convoy security mission on a really shitty road in Iraq. Running helped me through that and more (much more). Exercise is the fastest, cheapest way to get yourself a one-up on the depression.

L0j1k2• 13 years ago

Also, as a regular cannabis user, I want to voice my opinion that a little bit of weed at night before you lay down is certainly no worse than the person who has a little night cap before bed, or wine with dinner. It gets demonized quite a lot, and I have to say that as long as you don't let it get in the way of you dealing with these problems, it's harmless (without advice from your doctor saying otherwise). THAT BEING SAID escapism with any substance is not healthy, especially in your current headspace...

pknight• 13 years ago

Be kind to yourself and build better habits and routines for yourself before making big decisions. If you're more grounded and centered it will be easier to see things in a better perspective.

antoinevg• 13 years ago

The OneWeekCure(tm) for burnout:

Step 1) Quit the weed on a Friday evening and call in sick for the following week.

Step 2) Do nothing but lie in bed for Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

Step 3) Spend Thursday, Friday working in bed.

Step 4) Take your GF out and spend as little time at home over the weekend as possible.

Step 5) Go back into the office on Monday and reflect on how different it all feels.

Repeat as necessary and always remember:

The cost of not having you around for a week a couple times a year pales in comparison to the cost of finding a replacement for you!

anizan• 13 years ago

Listen to your girlfriend before you listen to any of us Go to a good psych and see if you possibly have bi-polar disorder. Startups come and go but a disease undiagnosed will haunt you forever

joezhou• 13 years ago

If you are in a startup, you've already won. You've already done what millions of people dream of doing but never had the balls to do. So be proud of what you've achieved! You are awesome.

wolfowitz2• 13 years ago

Thanks for posting this. I sometimes feel similarly, even though I don't have a co-founder. But basically I have the same issues and fears.

I'm afraid people here are right about the weed. I drink an unhealthy amount of beer (1-2 liters) every day to help me relax. I know it's fucking up my head in the long run and it would be better to get off it for a while to clear my head, but every night after a long day, even if it wasn't as productive as I'd like (actually especially if it wasn't) I go fck this sht, I need a beer!

I'm still in the process of launching my first product, living on savings, so I too feel like being in a financial stranglehold - either this works out or I'll have to go into prostitution or something, because just as you say, there is no freaking way I can go back to a 9 to 5 programmer job, taking order from some boss or clients or even just getting up every morning to show up at some office and stay there all day.

I envy people who already have achieved financial freedom with their businesses, there is so much in life I would want to do (go scuba diving as an example), but I feel quite penniless and very limited. A horrible feeling that makes me feel depressed every other day.

Sometimes I'd just like to "break out" but I wouldn't know where to?! I already quit my job to work for myself and be my own boss. I guess this struggle is just the price I'm paying for the freedom that is hopefully to come...

Anyway man, stay strong, you're not alone.

wolfowitz2• 13 years ago

On the 100$ Thailand thing that a lot of people have been asking here:

It will be hard to live off that little. I know for some Thai people this is their salary, but they live there, have families that support them, speak the local language, have built their own hut, are connected in the village, etc.

Even 500$ isn't that much for a tourist, but it's doable.

It is not unusual for them to charge 2, 5 or even 10 times the price for a foreigner, compared to what a local Thai person pays for any given good or service. Your only way around this is either learn Thai yourself, or have a friendly local help you get some deals. My best bet would be find someone on Couchsurfing.org willing to help you.

I once met a swiss girl while travelling through South East Asia, she was working in the north of Thailand in some project, teaching children English. She said to me that they were also in need of a IT teacher. That's several years ago now and I haven't been keeping track what she's up to. The point is, she told me that in the time living and working there, she hardly spent ANY money at all, being a lot with locals, living with the school, learning Thai, starting to get fair deals on food and such, etc. If that's something you want to contemplate, the organization she is part of is: http://www.baandoi.org

crashoverdrive• 13 years ago

In the words of Kenny Powers:

When my ass was 19 years old, I changed the face of professional baseball. I was handed the keys to the kingdom. Multi-million dollar deals. Endorsements. Everyone wanted a piece of my shit. Just a man with a mind for victory and an arm like a fucking canon. But sometimes when you bring the thunder, you get lost in the storm. But a true champion, face to face in his darkest hour will do whatever it takes to rise above. A man fights, fights, and fights some more. Because surrender is death, and death is for pussies. And my ass ain't no pussy. My ass is a fucking champion. — Kenny Powers

sharemywin• 13 years ago

1. Take a 1 week vacation and decompress. 2. Who's picking the fights you or the CEO? If it's you don't sweat the small stuff. 3. Try to clearly define who decides what.if things get heated agree to walk away and try again later. 4. Don't give up you'll regret it. 5. stop smoking pot and get an exercise bike espcially if finances are tight. 6. after you've done all of this if you still need to get out then come up with plan B first before you jump.

Help, I want to quit the startup I founded

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