The Positive Programmer

http://www.rdegges.com/the-positive-programmer/

by googletron • 13 years ago

202 115 13 years ago

There's a nice book about positive attitude, "Bright Sided" by Barbara Ehrenreich (IIRC). Follows the history of positive thinking from the epoch of calvinism up until today. Will be useful to read for you.

pekk• 13 years ago

People differ. Different people are also valid and can get things done, and may have unique strengths. Lincoln was classified as "melancholic." Pessimists may have more accurate views of many things. Do we really have to demand that everyone have the same personality as ourselves?

readme2• 13 years ago

There's no sort of demand in the article. The advice there is to be a passive observer of human behavior rather than getting angry and engaging in flamewars.

Given the current climate I see on HN, this advice is spot on.

russelluresti8• 13 years ago

There's a reason developers complain and fixate on things that are bad or broken. It's because, for the most part, developers (and designers and UX people and many others) are natural problem solvers.

If something isn't broken, okay, great, no need to focus on it. But if something is broken, to a problem solver, this is inexcusable. Things that are wrong need to be fixed. So when you see people complaining about things like startup culture or sexism in tech or whatever else, it's because these people see a problem that can be fixed, so they focus their efforts on fixing it. Most people who comment on these types of things aren't just complaining, they're offering solutions or their thoughts on what the "real problem" is.

Personally, I feel the whole "positive attitude" thing is a detriment. People with "positive attitudes" tend to ignore problems because they don't want to upset others or make waves. These problems tend to fester until people like me (problem solvers) get so tired of it we just leave.

If all you want is to be happy, fine, be happy, do your thing, ignore the problems. But if you want to make an impact, if you want to fix things and make them better for yourself and others, you have to focus on the things that are wrong and you have to complain and offer solutions and build solutions and piss people off until things get better. Making things better is always a fight; it's always a struggle; and you're unlikely to be very happy while trying to improve or fix broken things. Some people think it's worth it, others don't.

readme2• 13 years ago

> so they focus their efforts on fixing it

Complaining is not focusing your efforts on fixing something. Fixing is fixing. Complaining is complaining. When you complain about a problem instead of helping to build a solution, you become part of the problem.

I don't think this article said anything bad about polite and constructive criticism.

russelluresti8• 13 years ago

I'm disagreeing with the articles point of view that the people on Hacker News and other outlets are just complaining about something. Often times people will take any sort of negative discussion and consider it "complaining" regardless of the actual content.

tunesmith• 13 years ago

I'm not sure that quite gets at it, though - because there's there are actually three branches here. Focusing on the problem, pretending there's no problem, and focusing on the solution.

I think that one who focuses on solutions can be positive-focused without ignoring the problem.

russelluresti8• 13 years ago

True, there are three groups of people. But the article posits that just focusing on the negative is problem. I'm saying that it isn't - that you have to focus on the negatives and on the problems in order to solve them. The article specifically says not to focus on the negatives and instead focus on the positives. How do you fix problems (negatives) if you don't focus on them and instead focus on the positives (things that aren't broken)?

miloshadzic2• 13 years ago

I don't think being positive implies that you're looking the other way when a problem appears. I've noticed recently that my twitter stream is filled with programmers complaining about things not working but... they're not solving them.

russelluresti8• 13 years ago

The first step to solving a problem is acknowledging that you have a problem, isn't it? Drawing attention to an issue is a huge part in getting it solved.

davidroberts2• 13 years ago

I don't think there is any contradiction between being a problem-solver and having a positive outlook on life, as long as you are a competent problem solver and getting a lot of problems solved. Successful problem solving provides both an immediate joy from a "mission accomplished" feeling, and a long term positive outlook that comes with the feeling that because of you, there are less unsolved problems in the world, therefore life is better.

Don`t people become problem-solvers because they enjoy solving problems? And if that is a case, than being presented with a host of unsolved, yet potentially solvable problems should make a problem-solver scream with glee, right?

russelluresti8• 13 years ago

I find that people who tackle problems are those who are never quite satisfied. Even after solving a problem, they put it in their rear view and switch to the next problem to solve. There's always more work to be done.

I guess it depends on the depth of your compulsion.

stefantalpalaru• 13 years ago

The joy of having solved a problem is short in comparison to the unpleasant process of actually solving it.

Ignoring the negative aspects of reality is also not compatible with the mindset of a problem solver.

zoba• 13 years ago

It is too easy to get caught up in the idea that "everything is bad" when all you focus on is negatives. It sets the tone for your day, and alters your overall opinion on things.

A better alternative would be to have a clear, accurate, and wholly representative understanding of the situation. This means focusing on the good just as equally as the bad.

I understand where you're coming from though. I used to think the same thing about not focusing on good, and only directing attention to the bad. It made me feel like I was selective, like I had good taste, and knew things that other people didn't. I even suspected I was a little like Steve Jobs must've been, because surely he had good taste. I got to the point where I was starting to be known as a grumpy guy, and so I took a step back and realized what the negativity was doing to me, my mood, and to those around me. And thats when I realized a complete picture is better than a purely negative one.

With a complete picture, I'm less negative. When I'm less negative, Im more likely to have positive thoughts running through my brain. When I have positive thoughts running through my brain, I'm happier. When I'm happier I'm more productive, people like me more, I talk more, and all of those things lead to me being more successful. It was an obvious choice for me!

Maybe you aren't there yet, and maybe you won't ever be. However, I imagine a lot of people are somewhere close, and I hope they find this comment useful.

russelluresti8• 13 years ago

I see no issue with acknowledging good or positive things, but perhaps you should clarify what you mean when you say you should "focus" on them. To me, to "focus" on something means you invest a significant amount of time and brain power into understanding and evaluating them. If something is good and isn't broken, why, as a problem solver, would you spend valuable time going "oh isn't that nice?" when you could be addressing other problems?

Obviously there are things to be learned from the things that aren't broken (so that you know the difference between what works and what doesn't, and a potential solution when you come across something that IS broken), I just don't see the point of focusing on the good. It's good. Yay. Now move on.

I also find it interesting that both you and OP associate negative outlooks with big egos. You both mention how negative people tend to think of themselves as better or more deserving. I wonder if this is an association that really holds water.

saraid216• 13 years ago

There was a spate of articles last yearish that talked about how people who were grumpy or melancholy were actually far better at perceiving reality accurately and were thus better equipped to address problems.

nickknw2• 13 years ago

> Personally, I feel the whole "positive attitude" thing is a detriment. People with "positive attitudes" tend to ignore problems because they don't want to upset others or make waves.

I think I know the kind of people you're talking about, but please don't think all "positive" people are in that same category. I think constructive criticism is great, and in no way do I want to stop giving it or receiving it.

But there's a lot of criticism that goes out of its way to be mean or condescending. And there's a lot of criticism with only one purpose: to make the criticizer look smart. These are not useful and they drown out the constructive feedback.

Sometimes being negative is appropriate! I'm not happy all the time. But it SHOULDN'T be a habit - negativity like that is not helpful to the person doing it and it's not helpful to those around them.

russelluresti8• 13 years ago

Criticism and complaint are one thing, but I think it boils down to what certain people are able to see. For example, if we're working on a project and I tell you "Hey, I don't think this solution is going to work. There are too many points of failure and something's going to go wrong. We need a plan for when these things go wrong." As a negative person, I focus on all the way things can go wrong. I've envisioned what would happen with each one. But as a positive person, you don't see them. Or, if you do see them, you think they're so unlikely that you don't consider them serious.

Now, if we planned for things to go wrong (as a negative person would) and things go right, all we lose is a little bit of time that was spent creating backup plans. But if we planned for things to go right, and things do go wrong, we're in a situation where we have to scramble.

That's why I think positive attitudes can be detrimental. If you err, I feel you should err on the side of caution, and that typically requires a negative outlook (because positive people won't waste their time on it).

scanr• 13 years ago

I've worked with programmers who are both positive and care deeply about solving problems. It was very pleasant working with them. I aspire to be as positive as they are.

Also, nothing makes me happier than improving or fixing broken things.

jader2014• 13 years ago

> The first (and only) thing that immediately came to mind was that I wanted to be a better person: I wanted to be smarter, more successful, and happy.

When I read this, the first thing I thought of is, "Well that's your problem."

To me, based on my experiences and what I've read and observed from other people, many people find the most happiness from focusing less on oneself, and focusing more on others.

What can I do to enhance the life of someone else? What can I do to make a positive impact on others? What can I do to make a difference on the well being of society?

But instead, it seems like the thought of the quoted sentence is focusing more on benefiting oneself -- make me smarter, make me more successful, make me happier.

Don't get me wrong, I'm talking to myself as well, because I often find myself too focused on me. But I feel that when I instead start to focus on having a positive impact on someone else, that's when I start to experience genuine happiness. That's what I feel makes me a better person.

Swizec2• 13 years ago

> What can I do to have a real impact on the well being of society?

From my own experience, it is infinitely easier to make me better than to discover what I can do for society. I'd love to make products that help society, but damn it that's hard. Maybe if I just focus on myself I can make me happy.

So far it's worked. I'm still looking for something I can do to help society. Until then, I'm working on things that help me level up to a point where I can execute on grand ideas.

jader2014• 13 years ago

But not even in the scope of society. I agree, that's hard, and if you can pull it off, you will reap great rewards.

But I'm also talking about being a positive influence on others around you. To your friends, coworkers, family, significant other, etc. These are the people we can feasibly impact. Truly think about and focus on these relationships, and be a "better" person for the benefit of these people.

michaelrhansen• 13 years ago

Just curious - why not jump on the grand ideas now? (I would assume the usual reasons.. financial, time, etc.)

gesman• 13 years ago

True, but for car to move ahead - engine needs to be cleaned first of inner garbage (eliminating emotional pain and replacing negativity with positive personal attitude).

Once engine is clean - the car can move. Forward (aiming to help others) or backwards (trying to please oneself which cause accumulation of inner garbage again).

jader2014• 13 years ago

Oh yeah, I definitely agree with that.

But to me, personal "maintenance" has more to do with introspecting on things are stopping you from moving forward as a person.

Intelligence and success, I think these aren't part of that maintenance. For example, I can think of many people that aren't profoundly intelligent and/or successful, but have a great impact on others, even society, and thus are very happy, positive people.

keithpeter• 13 years ago

"...many people find the most happiness from focusing less on oneself, and focusing more on others."

My experience confirms this...

Reference: Wittgenstein, Tractatus 6.43, and below.

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5740

and some quotes

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein

jiggy2011• 13 years ago

I agree but for that to work "others" need to be people that you believe need/deserve whatever it is you are doing.

That is hard to do if you actively dislike the company you work for.

tsumnia2• 13 years ago

It's a little bit of a Catch-22, but focusing on self first definitely improves happiness. About 9 years ago, I had terrible anger issues, over weight and all the stereotypes of the computer dork. One day, after sitting on WoW for 4 hours waiting to buy Arena points, I thought "What am I doing with myself?" and shifted gears to working out.

That moment of selfishness, is what helped pull me out of whatever rut I was in. 8 years later, I have a black belt in one martial art, a blue in a second, and I'm offering nutritional tips to friends and family.

Happiness doesn't have to be volunteering at the soup kitchen every week, but the general "Don't be a dick to anyone" can really boost your mood. I'm not saying be a doormat, stand your ground, but don't be a dick about it either.

jader2014• 13 years ago

Yeah, I think my original point got lost. I certainly agree that you have to work things out within yourself before you can start to focus on others.

The main point of my post was a reaction to the point I quoted. Based on that quote, it sounded like the OP was focusing on parts of self that may not result in happiness or becoming a better, positive person -- success and intelligence.

I know many people that are successful and intelligent, but aren't happy or positive -- at all.

Domenic_S• 13 years ago

> About 9 years ago [...] after sitting on WoW for 4 hours waiting to buy Arena points

I don't doubt your story, but your timeline is off. Arena was introduced with BC, which was Jan 2007 -- 6 years ago, not 9. It would have been impossible to buy arena points 9 years ago because they didn't exist.

That aside, I don't see that as selfishness, just introspection. If selfishness is doing something for your own benefit, then you did an unselfish thing. You made the lives of everyone around you better, and contributed more to your family and society. That isn't selfish!

Dewie• 13 years ago

Focusing on others is great, if it gives you purpose and it's of your own volition (of course most people will preach to you to be selfless - your selflessness might indirectly benefit them...).

hjay• 13 years ago

Loved this post.

I've noticed many of the characteristics Randall described about his "old" self, and in the past few months I have made it a goal for myself to be less negative, and make a conscious effort to notice when I am being very negative.

gavinflud• 13 years ago

I wholeheartedly agree. I've noticed it a lot over the last while where many people in the software industry who write blog posts or contribute to forums just have an air of negativity about them. That being said, I'm sure no matter where you look there will be plenty of people who focus on the negatives in life, that's just in their nature.

My preference is to be a positive person and focus on making my life (and hopefully other people's lives) happy and reading blog posts by similar minded people only reinforces that.

auctiontheory• 13 years ago

The How of Happiness is a research-backed yet very practical/usable book describing several techniques for finding happiness in life.

tudorconstantin• 13 years ago

Well, there are people plain dumb who needs me to be angry and help them correct their behaviour - they might not even be aware of that yet.

In a more serious manner, drama is one thing that gains attention and strong, opinionated, emotionfull articles are getting attention. Add some mediocrity to the article by choosing a general, unspecialised subject on which everybody is able to express an opinion and that's it, you have a front page article.

stared• 13 years ago

Sure, frustration reduces happiness.

However, many things were created (or fixed) exactly because of frustration (sometimes it is the best motivation for solving real, burning problems, instead of artificial ones).

Likewise, perfectionism is almost always painful for both the person in charge (as things never get perfect) and co-workers, family, etc. But many times the effort is worth it, and afterwards it is better to look back at a masterpiece born in pain, than a slackly and broken thing created in a laid-back way.

Perhaps it is why many creators (both in tech and arts) were depressive, but still able to accomplish a lot (though, sure, it is not a requirement). And sure, it is a matter of balance - one one hand to be able to spot real problems, on the other - still be motivated enough to finish them (spotting but being not able to fix is the worst state of mind, arguably).

kvad• 13 years ago

Whats up Ran!, Great read on a day of bad news. But I agree with Jader201, its hard to be happy even if I'm personally successful. There are so many struggling. Maybe its cause I grew up playing competitive team sports. But seeing so many smart engineers out of work or pushed around is a shame. Its a choice to help others and make their happiness a priory. There are just so many people having a hard time right now. Personally, It hurts to see.

I just cant put blinders on and focus on myself. Wish I could.

groby_b3• 13 years ago

Or maybe we complain, to take the example of sexism, because there is a real problem. That needs to be addressed.

And given that the first two items you address are code of conduct & sexism, I can't help but think "Of course a white male programmer wouldn't see an issue with that". To be very clear, not because I think all white males are mean-spirited misogynists. Most of them are pretty nice people, in my experience.

But because being part of the majority blinds people to minority issues. And so, while I agree it's important to keep a positive outlook on life, I suggest that especially for issues that don't affect you directly, you take a deep look if this is really just "negativity", or if there's a real issue lurking beyond that.

And then let's fix them. In a positive way :)

rdegges2• 13 years ago

Author here. I completely agree with you that those are real problems. I have a great wife (and sisters) who have experienced varying levels of sexism in the technical world as well, and it really bothers me.

I didn't mean in my article that we should all be blind to the bad things going on, I just feel like people quickly jump to negative conclusions and go into pitchfork mode all too quickly. Constantly focusing on the negatives can be a real emotional drain. It's a lot easier to focus on the positives and solving problems. For instance, it's quite great that PyCon this year had over 20% female attendees! That's a big accomplishment compared to previous years' stats. In addition, the code of conduct and public outreach made a lot of people feel welcome and safe attending the event, which is a big win for everyone!

When bad things happen, they must certainly be brought to light -- but discussion around these problems could be far more constructive if people were to focus their efforts and energy on resolving issues and working together rather than blaming one another and becoming defensive or close-minded.

The first step to solving problems is always to identify the problem, but the attitude you take to solving problems can make a huge difference both to yourself and to your peers.

Thank you for the comment, I'm really surprised to see so many interesting viewpoints about this topic.

groby_b3• 13 years ago

> and go into pitchfork mode all too quickly

Oh, I agree with you there.

> but the attitude you take to solving problems can make a huge difference both to yourself and to your peers.

That's an excellent insight, and one that's hard to keep in mind, at times. Especially if most attempts at fixing a problem are greeted by essentially a wave of bile and hate. It's easy to forget that most people are decent, when the Internet makes it easy to only see the loudest ones.

That's where I'd say I disagree with you - it's not easy to focus on the positive. It depends on the reaction of your peers. Yes, we must be the change we wish to see in the world - but emulating Ghandi all the time is something only very few succeed at.

Thank you for the reminder that it's worth trying, though.

cema• 13 years ago

  I can't help but think "Of course
  a white male programmer wouldn't see an issue with that"

That would be stereotyping. You would not want to stereotype, would you?

groby_b3• 13 years ago

I've used this particular statement as a rhetorical device.

But yes, yes I do. All the time. I try to catch myself doing it, and not let myself be influenced by it. Having biases/stereotyping is not the issue - we're predisposed to snap judgments. Recognizing it, and deciding how we act upon it is the issue.

As such, I'm still OK with my statement. (Except that I'd re-edit to "majority often blinds people). I call out a condition that actually exists, and ask to take it into consideration - I don't accuse, or segregate, or treat the other party as lesser.

And had I followed this up with "and so you can't possibly get it, and you're a $INSULT, and you're intentionally suppressing women", then yes, you should call me out on this and tell me that I'm wrong. (And that my manners need fixing)

Being part of a minority does not excuse bad behavior.

altera• 13 years ago

Amazing, first paragraph defines sexism as problem, second paragraphs defines very gently male-whites as pigs (but not all of them of course).

Reminds me a job ad I had seen recently. In first paragraph: "we support equal opportunities for minorities, if you are X,Y,Z or W please apply". Just under it was age limit 45 years. This was desk-based administrator position for major government agency.

dgesang• 13 years ago

> white male programmer

> And then let's fix them.

Ok, so stop with your sexists & racist stereotypes.

RyanMcGreal• 13 years ago

White male programmers do have a tendency to be tone deaf to discrimination. Not because they're white or male (that would be a sexist/racist stereotype), but because white-and-male is the dominant demographic in our society, and people who are part of the dominant demographic tend to be less aware and conscious of the comparative disadvantages faced by people who are not part of that demographic.

jerryhuang100• 13 years ago

Great post! especially after the week-long PyCon rants on HN front-page.

cakeface• 13 years ago

I read that and felt that it was a negative post about negative posts.

dmiladinov• 13 years ago

> "Accept the behavior of others as it is, and don't allow yourself to project your desired behavior onto others."

If you could only read one sentence in TFA, this should be it.

To it, I would also just add: "Instead, show others how you would have them behave by behaving that way yourself."

era86• 13 years ago

I feel like most programmers have trained themselves to expect the worst. Pessimism forces you to write robust code. I'm not saying it's the only way to produce robust code, but it definitely helps. I think that's why a lot of HackerNews posts are pessimistic (negative).

kstenerud• 13 years ago

It's a culture thing, and mob mentality. A few leaders set the tone and then everyone runs with it, eager to make their mark. Every major event, especially those with strong emotional content, starts with a trigger post, followed by a deluge of "my take on X" posts, complete with 600+ thread comments, after which it slowly fades away, with only a few hardcore people shouting "why doesn't anyone care about X anymore!?"

That's human. That's culture. The negativity will eventually fade once the general startup mood improves from massive infusions of cheap money again, at which point the same fad cycle will continue to occur, but with a much rosier tint.

superfresh• 13 years ago

It's also important to note how important positive behavior is on those around you. One thing I've learned since programming professionally is that it's a team sport -- doesn't have to be, but in most cases you'll develop along with others. When you develops habits of cynicism and negativity it spreads. To those junior, to your direct peers, and especially to non-technical teammates.

I've found that by setting a positive tone, especially in somewhat negative situations, speaks volumes. Cynicism is easy. Pushing those feelings aside and remaining stoic in tough times helps tremendously.

Draco6slayer• 13 years ago

This is stupid and nobody likes it. Go back to your terrible life as a terrible person who nobody likes.

But in all seriousness, I think you do have to take the negative with the positive, so long as both are constructive. It'd be stupid to take something sexist and cast it aside and make jokes about it as if it doesn't matter. Because it does matter. The technical community is negative because it has certain requirements that are not met. The government is doing bad things, as are private corporations. We cannot ignore these things because they are negative. But I agree that we should find positives. The trick is that, in good discussion, positive and negative are unimportant. What matters is constructiveness.

Saying 'This is great!' is just as useless as saying 'This sucks!'. Positive conversation is fine, but it is not necessary in intelligent discussion, because not every topic is inherently positive.

justplay• 13 years ago

pro tip : To gain the twitter followers start tweeting positive views .

Sputum• 13 years ago

Thanks, weeaboo

ryderm• 13 years ago

There is so much irony in this post and these comments. Pretty funny if you ask me.

xsuvea• 13 years ago

Despite not getting into programming until I was 26, having come from an arts background of study, I've been programming applications that are used by hundreds of people since then. I don't code through the night, am not good enough to be hired by a start up or use rails or the latest tool the bullies of the tech world are going on about. No one I write for gives a flying fuck about anything except an application that is easy to use and does everything they asked for. Any of the incredible languages out there are capable of giving users what they want right now so no need to keep banging on about the latest version or giving out about the other camps.

languagehacker• 13 years ago

Vacuous, Zig-Ziglar-esque handwaving with an unnecessary bad anime drawing.

Way to get on HN, though. Everything else looks really educational in comparison, so I'm sure the rest of the authors appreciate it.

kevincrane• 13 years ago

Alright Debbie Downer.

hypertexthero• 13 years ago

Highly recommended books: [Think on These Things](http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/think-on-these-things) and [The First and Last Freedom](http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/the-first-and-last-free...) by Jiddu Krishnamurti

wfunction• 13 years ago

Am I the only one who feels this post is also negative, but only in a meta- sense?

greghinch• 13 years ago

I've been working as a developer for about 10 years, and was involved in some tech communities for about 6 or 7 years prior to that (early high school, doing things like LAN parties, Linux install fests, and generally socializing amongst the "nerd" set). If there's an overwhelmingly common personality defect I've seen amongst tech aficionados, it's a proclivity towards the negative.

My observation is that people with highly logical thought processes can often end up developing an outwardly negative approach to most aspects of life. Perhaps it's due to frustrations of dealing with people not as logical as us. Perhaps its a genetic personality defect. While I can't say for certain, I know I'm certainly guilty of it, and though I've made an effort to be better about it (and am), it's still a kind of "default" response I have to the unexpected or things that don't follow the "path" that I imagined. I see a similar pattern amongst many folks in the groups I mentioned.

I will say if anything, the overall demeanor of those groups has become a lot more positive than I remember it being 5-10 (or more) years ago.

erydo• 13 years ago

I can only speak for myself, but I think the cause is often practical: good things are often baselines that don't need to be changed and can usually be ignored more than the bad things which actually do need to be addressed.

This tends to lead to a very negative outlook, but is more a consequence of pragmatic mental habit than anything.

That said, like everyone else I've noticed that pragmatic negativity doesn't translate well to other parts of life. Switching mindsets from "what's wrong and how does it need to be fixed" to "what's enjoyable" can be quite a leap when you're used to thinking a certain way.

doug363• 13 years ago

I've got a similar view on the situation - perhaps technical people are trained or enculturated to look out for the things that can be improved/fixed, rather than taking time to celebrate progress and achievement.

keithwhor• 13 years ago

I think using "highly logical thought processes" to excuse (or at least explain) highly negative and antisocial behaviour is an unfortunate, but common, fallacy among some very intelligent people. It's great that you're taking steps to overcome negativity you've seen in yourself.

Did you notice, however, that the only explanations you went to for these negative approaches were "dealing with people not as logical as us" and "genetic personality defect"? What's the common thread in these answers? They're both examples of blame externalization (and thus perserving cognitive dissonance - you're great the way you are!). If it's other people, you're not in the wrong, you don't need to change. If it's genetic, then it's hard-coded, and try as you might, you're going to have a hell of a time fixing it.

Now maybe you're right, and maybe you're wrong. Who am I to say? Your points aren't invalid, just biased, and it's clear to see where it's coming from. But I think the best way to negate this negativity (ha, ha?) is by having people turn the mirror on themselves, first and foremost, before judging others.

How much of this negativity could be spared to begin with if people just thought about how they would feel in someone else's shoes?

It's awesome that you've seen an upward trend in positivity. You said you've been working on it yourself, you're definitely part of what's making it better!

aninhumer2• 13 years ago

>having people turn the mirror on themselves, first and foremost, before judging others.

Indeed. In any disagreement you have, there are two people at fault, but only of those faults is in your power to fix.

Ensorceled2• 13 years ago

I've been around for 30 years and agree with the "proclivity towards negativity" and also with an overall trend towards more positive outlooks.

__--__• 13 years ago

Fiction writers tend to be pretty negative people as well. I think writing and programming have one very important thing in common: most people can ignore the ugly parts of humanity. Writers and programmers spend years staring into it. Writers do so to better understand people and write believable characters. Programmers do so to better understand people's behaviors so we can solve their problems.

I work in social games. Nothing makes me more negative than running a user test and finding out that treating your users as if they were mentally deficient 4 year olds results in more people coming back to play again and more people willing to give us their money.

andyl2• 13 years ago

When I discovered Hacker News, I loved it because it seemed to be 100% about technology and internet startups. It doesn't feel like that to me any more.

I've been involved with other sites where the political discussions overwhelmed the core topic, and the audience just collapsed in a tailspin of high emotions.

I hope Hacker News doesn't go that route.

ryankey721• 13 years ago

I kind of like the mixed bag that Hacker News seems to be.

I'm pretty new here, but I enjoy reading about the future of programming languages alongside posts about Marcus Aurelius' writings. It just seems that it's mostly content about being the best you that you can be and having a broad range of knowledge.

rdegges2• 13 years ago

Agreed, I love the diversity which is why I continue reading HN.

I like a good balance of topics, keeps things interesting (and more importantly, continues to get me interested in other subjects / topics).

eric-hu• 13 years ago

Do you think the recent "Inappropriate comments at Pycon 2013 called out" thread contributed to that mixed bag in a good way?

I worded that carefully. I don't want to draw out sides on that thread topic, just whether it contributed to an educational atmosphere and meaningful discussion on HN.

jsankey• 13 years ago

You can help by flagging submissions on (mostly US) politics that are off-topic. I rarely flag, but do in such cases as those threads suck a lot of oxygen out of this place.

andyl2• 13 years ago

The politics on HN is gender/diversity politics, and IMHO HN has been somewhat riven by it. Witness the heated discussion on this very thread.

To me all politics is off-topic - I'm interested in the technology discussions.

duaneb3• 13 years ago

I do as well. This place is definitely changing recently (past two years), but it's not all bad. The political stuff is the worst of it.

zachdonovan• 13 years ago

Reading this article reminded me of this post from Myles Recny:

http://edu.mkrecny.com/thoughts/be-nice-to-programmers

Both that article and this one resonated with me on a certain level. Software development can be such a hypercritical field, involving so much self-recrimination.

That, in turn, reminds me of Alan Cooper's characterization of Homo Logicus in The Inmates Are Running The Asylum. Programmers are forced to look at all possibilities, and are trained to point out even extremely unlikely cases. This emphasis on edge-cases is confusing and counter-intuitive to non-programmers, who tend to think in terms of probable cases.

Perhaps too much concentrated attention on possible cases is turning us all sour.

ilaksh• 13 years ago

I remember sitting in a meeting some years ago and we were discussing a new issue tracking system that was being demoed on the projector. The editor component took a full 10 to 15 seconds to load into the page every time. So I said "that editor sucks". It was one of the few things I had said during the meeting.

The manager was very irritated and said something like "We don't tolerate that kind of negativity here". And continued, as if I had said something awful. He said something like "unless you have a solution to a problem" something something in the process of explaining why I shouldn't say that.

So five minutes after the meeting I found out how to disable the slow graphical editor and then the issue tracker became usable for normal people.

Well, I guess I am a negative person then. If it sucks, it sucks.

I will try to take some of this advice constructively though, because I do spend a lot of time focusing on problems that need to be solved. But I can't help but think that the reason a lot of people aren't so critical or 'negative' is that they have just given up on fixing things, or are just so generally ineffective at problem solving that they naturally accept everything as it is.

I would rather be a negative bastard who identifies and solves problems than a happy ineffectual drone who just goes along to get along and accepts the status quo no matter how broken.

SoftwareMaven• 13 years ago

If you solve problems, negativity isn't as much of a problem. If you spend all your time finding problems that other people should be solving, that is more problematic.

I think we tend to be negative, especially wrt software, because we know how it could be. So we apply that filter without also applying the "what did it take to get where it is" filter.

lutterkd• 13 years ago

The problem isn't that you raise the issue, the problem is the aggressive language "sucks". Not has problems, not is limited, "sucks".

The guy writing it probably knows it has problems. He's probably working really hard on it. Maybe he stayed late at work to try to improve it, instead of seeing his girlfriend. And you come along and just say "sucks". Even if he wasn't there, you're still having a go at him in front of other people.

Being polite, diplomatic, calm and considered is not being an "ineffectual drone". You're falling into that mindset that you have to be a cunt to get stuff done. You don't.

aninhumer2• 13 years ago

This is exactly the kind of thing the article is complaining about. You could say "that long load time is going to be bad for productivity", it's a valid criticism and deserves a response by whoever is explaining the tool. But you don't, you say "that editor sucks". It's aggressively negative language which doesn't even specify a problem.

Whoever is recommending this system is likely nervous, and very invested in what people think of it, so you saying "it sucks" will feel like a personal attack. It's completely unnecessary.

shadowrunner• 13 years ago

The internet is dehumanizing. I see the effect in myself. We'd never say half the things in person that we say online. The instantaneous nature of computers has made us all impatient brats.

Especially you.

Ensorceled2• 13 years ago

This is NOT new. You could see this same problem on usenet in the 80's and on Slashdot. Programmers are often negative, it's pretty much an archetype.

skrebbel• 13 years ago

Snap out of that filter bubble, programming community != hacker news and hacker news != programming community.

Upvotes for scandal outrages don't mean we've all become grumpy.

jasonkester3• 13 years ago

The more we tolerate this here, the more it will become the norm.

HN's most attractive feature from day one has always been the positive, intelligent, supportive community. Those are not traits you tend to find in your typical 9-5 programmer (in my experience, at least), and are the exact opposite of what you find in the communities that most of our early adopters fled from (Slashdot was already hopeless by 2007, and programming.reddit.com was already headed that way).

But those other communities are dying, and this place has taken over their role as The Place to Talk About Tech Stuff. So we see a lot of their users coming across, bringing with them the general depressive negativity and inclination to snark and hostility. This behavior sometimes doesn't get swatted down fast enough nor ruthlessly enough and bad comments are left to stand. People see these comments and think they're acceptable. And the standards erode.

There's not much to be done about it, unfortunately. We can't kick everybody out, and it's not yet quite bad enough to form a new community and abandon this place to the rabble.

Still, it's worth at least trying to fight. Flag ruthlessly, downvote comments that don't belong here, based on tone rather than disagreement. Upvote the few good things that do in fact belong here. Write good comments and otherwise behave the way you want to see others behave.

richardjordan• 13 years ago

You're right this is a cycle I've seen time and again online. I've been using the Internet since before the web, and seen this cycle again and again... newsgroups becoming popular, the negative argumentative types moving in, folks who weren't that way getting dragged into the negativity (I know I've been dragged there myself), then they just become festering shells of what they once were as the nice people move on and just the negativity remains to harshly parody the original community...

The same has happened with web community after web community I've enjoyed only to see them get popular... slashdot was good once. Heck, there was even a time when you could get a civilized conversation in TechCrunch comment threads.

So, with the obvious caveat of http://www.despair.com/dysfunction.html ...I sincerely hope that HN doesn't end up going down that road too.

Long winded way of saying I like your comment and I'm gonna try to take the advice.

eksith• 13 years ago

Slashdot's current state really breaks my heart. Even with the occasional drive-by troll or the "apk" lunatic (what's his deal anyway?) things were tolerable, but lately it seems some of the older posters have lost interest and moved on (maybe to HN? Ha!) or have reverted to petty squabbling and deliberate obtuseness. I mostly go there to read comments from the veterans who've stuck around over the years and only recently bothered with creating an account. Thankfully there are still nuggets of gold among the threads.

There's a tricky Goldilocks zone when it comes to any forum and the biggest challenge is not treating it as a personal blog. You share ideas, yes, but the very platform demands you give up some control. Of how your ideas are perceived, what feedback you get and even weather those ideas are welcome in the first place. And all communities change... away from a Beowulf cluster of X and into the cloud, I suppose.

Trying too hard to hold new members to the light of older burning candles will cause them to flicker out or if you just let them burn willy-nilly, you risk starting a fire.

I'm hopeful we're not all doomed to walled gardens the likes of Twitter and Facebook just to avoid negativity raining on our parade (of course even they're not devoid of doom and gloom either, but "blocks" do give you an umbrella of sorts).

tep• 13 years ago

> HN's most attractive feature from day one has always been the positive, intelligent, supportive community. Those are not traits you tend to find in your typical 9-5 programmer

I guess this is because HN attracts people that aren't just programmers but also entrepreneurs. A good hacker has to figure out worst-case scenarios. A good entrepreneur, on the other hand, has to look for value in everything to find business opportunities.

ruswick2• 13 years ago

I think that there is a clear distinction between pure negativity and "snark" or sardonicism. It is possible to be genuinely, objectively critical of things without being arrogant or sarcastic. Criticism is a necessary facet of discussion, and is indicative of a thoughtful community. "Asshole-sim" is not. I'm of the belief that the discussion on HN tends towards the former.

>This behavior sometimes doesn't get swatted down fast enough nor ruthlessly enough and bad comments are left to stand. People see these comments and think they're acceptable. And the standards erode.

>Flag ruthlessly, downvote comments that don't belong here, based on tone rather than disagreement.

I'm unsure of what you're advocating for. Are you for expunging the hyper-negative, misogynistic near-spam of Reddit, or for doing away with negativity entirely? (My hunch is latter, as fighting spam is trivially excepted and needn't be argued.) The latter is incredibly dangerous and will work to the detriment of the community inasmuch as HN, as a community of generally-intelligent individuals, is capable of analyzing a story to a greater extend than most news organizations or communities; and some sort of assault on negativity would remove the ability for one to introduce warranted skepticism or to dissent from general discussion. Skepticism, contrarianism, criticism, etc. are incredibly valuable tools and are fundamental to HN and to discourse in general. One should not have the merits of their ideas judged solely on the "tone" articulated by them, and HN should certainly not seek to create institutionalized positivity.

abraxasz• 13 years ago

"Skepticism, contrarianism, criticism, etc. are incredibly valuable tools and are fundamental to HN and to discourse in general. One should not have the merits of their ideas judged solely on the "tone" articulated by them, and HN should certainly not seek to create institutionalized positivity."

Completely agree with you. I've seen way too many comments that where downvoted only because of the tone (even though the content itself was very relevant), or because it expressed a dissident, politically incorrect idea. When I see such a comment being downvoted, I automatically upvote it, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with the content. I don't hang out here to read opinions I'm already agreeing with. I'm far more interested in intelligently argumented opinions that contradict mine. So, no it's not fun to be bashed by the sarcasms of someone else, but if the opinion contained in the bashing is relevant, then we should just suck it up, and answer to the content.

jasonkester3• 13 years ago

Observe this thread for dozens of examples of comments that just aren't high enough quality to be on this site:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5453757

Anger, silly jokes, one-liners and memes are all over that thread. The fact that so much of it will still be there at the end of the day is the problem we're facing.

Compare to the discussion on this item, with people stating real arguments using entire paragraphs. Plenty of disagreement, certainly some negativity, but mostly civil (or greyed out).

So no, we're not trying to get rid of negativity. We're just trying to maintain a place where adults can hold civil conversation.

rpgmaker• 13 years ago

Also, many of the issues that the OP touched are serious that need to be addressed by the community (i.e. sexism). Discussing this issues doesn't make us negative people, is just that those are real problems that need to be solved.

hallomac2013• 13 years ago

Thank you for this very enlightening post.

Nursie2• 13 years ago

As a natural cynic and old ex goth, let me say that being positive is really hard work. But worth it.

I noticed one day in an old job that two distinct things happened when management presented an idea to the engineering teams. Nearly everyone (self included to a greater or lesser extent) would start racking their brains for reasons why this, whatever it is, is a terrible idea that must be argued against, or why it just straight out couldn't work.

All except one guy, a friend and one of the brightest sparks on the team, who would start thinking of how he could implement it and what new, interesting tech he could use to get there. Sometimes he would come to the conclusion it was a bad idea, or impossible, but he didn't look for that first. As a result he did more novel, interesting work than the rest of the team(s) who generally spent their time mumbling and complaining.

That's when I decided to try and be that way too.

The Positive Programmer

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