It will take a 'baby elephant' to knock over this bike [video]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/9776325.stm

by ZeljkoS • 14 years ago

132 101 14 years ago

news.bbc.co.uk

cjwebb• 14 years ago

That looks very cool. It would be interesting to see at what speeds it can survive collisions, and still remain upright.

huhtenberg2• 14 years ago

And there's no chance that gyros (abruptly) stop, because... ?

(edit) OK, let's make "abruptly" optional. So what's the contingency plan for when gyros spin down and stop?

sdoering• 14 years ago

Well. And what when AirBags stop working, or anti traction in cars, or...

Every technology might fail. And every device will fail. And it does so in cars, in planes, in trains or whatever.

That's why (so do I believe), they built two gyros in there. One for fail-save-mode.

kayoone• 14 years ago

Still if the traction system in cars fails you dont fall over and and lie on the street immobile. They have a second one for fail safety, but i think there could relatively easily be a case where both fail, like no energy for whatever reason.

easytiger3• 14 years ago

> And what when AirBags stop working

Nothing happens

> anti traction in cars

Nothing happens.

Without Gyros this thing falls sideways

henrikgs• 14 years ago

The video says it has 2 where one of them is for redundancy, but still....

JohnsonB• 14 years ago

Why would a gyro abruptly stop? If there's some sort of collision with enough force to crumple the gyro casing, which appears to be buried deep in the vehicle and can be made of very strong material, you have a lot bigger problems than the gyros stopping.

anthonyb2• 14 years ago

because physics.

anthonyb2• 14 years ago

Watch the damn video! It has feet that pop down - is that so hard?

nakedrobot2• 14 years ago

I saw this vehicle at the eg conference (www.the-eg.com) in April. I recognize the marketing pitch - that it takes "a baby elephant to knock it over" - good message!

I think it will take a lot for regulators approve this vehicle, because it really is something quite new, and untested in the field. It does appear to be fantastically safer than "normal" motorcycles, and I would love to try one out.

What was never mentioned was how it performs on extremely slippery surfaces. This is where two-wheeled vehicles have a lot of trouble.

Also, one complaint about the BBC article itself - it uses "technology from the Space Station and Hubble Telescope: gyroscopes" - Really, BBC? :-)

redcap• 14 years ago

The bearded guy raised the point of needing to trust the vehicle to not fall over, and there was a lot of talk about how it looked and what kind of cool features were included.

But before I purchased it, I'd definitely want to have a test ride to see how it went, and perhaps some decent feedback from Top Gear - how does it really handle in a variety of situations?

breakyerself• 14 years ago

I'd go for a motor trend review. Top gear has been caught sandbagging electric vehicles in the past. I love the show for it's entertainment value, but they aren't always a neutral party.

Shish2k• 14 years ago

> they aren't always a neutral party.

They are sometimes a neutral party? I always thought Top Gear was a car-themed sitcom...

freehunter2• 14 years ago

I agree here. Top Gear gives entertaining reviews, and they touch on the good or bad parts of the car, but not in an incredibly well-rounded way. They have a tendency to home in on one or two positives or negatives and ride that for the laughs. I really would love to see what they say, but I wouldn't use it as my only or even my main review source. Especially considering their history of deceptive entertainment when it comes to electric cars.

simias3• 14 years ago

I expect that even if the gyros stop while you're driving you wouldn't fall over because... well because that's how bikes work. It might change the way it handles though.

So I would only be worried about it falling over while stopped, which is not as bad I guess.

Here in Paris I see a lot of those motor tricycles that don't require motorbike license, so I think there's definitely a market for a not-so dangerous and simpler motorbike in congested urban areas.

By the way I hate it when the hostess introduces gyros like "space age technology". Yeah, my bike has bits of steel soldered together, you know, like the International Space Station!

duggan• 14 years ago

> I expect that even if the gyros stop while you're driving you wouldn't fall over because... well because that's how bikes work.

I don't imagine the dynamics would be the same, after all, you're the gyro on a normal bike. If the vehicle was unloaded and you were going straight, you'd probably be able to keep enough manual balance control to come to a relatively controlled halt deploying the parking struts.

However, I imagine the gyros are going to be compensating for internal imbalance (shopping, baggage) in everyday scenarios, or be travelling around a corner, or in traffic, etc, so you might have less time than you think to regain control before toppling.

easytiger3• 14 years ago

yea but how do you get out when the gyros fail/power fails and you can't deploy the legs. Mechanical fallback legs?

deelowe3• 14 years ago

I'd like to see how easily someone can drive a bike with a steering wheel that also suddenly loses the gyro stability. I'd wager the average person would crash before they had time to sort it out. Even doing something as simple as changing the fork height and angle of the handle bars on a normal bike can be enough to you to wreck in a corner (speaking from experience).

jessaustin2• 14 years ago

"...even if the gyros stop..."

Except gyros don't... stop. Sure, they require regular torque input to maintain constant angular velocity. However, they're typically constructed with all their considerable mass at the rim, so they have very high angular momentum. If power to the gyros fails for some reason, they will continue to spin, and continue to regulate balance, for quite some time. Certainly long enough to pull to the side of the road and deploy the kickstands.

It would be good engineering to tie some sort of gyro power failsafe into motive power and some sort of driver alert system, if it weren't even better engineering to just tie both of the "redundant" (I suspect that two horizontal gyros act to cancel any unwanted yaw torque that one would create by itself) gyros directly to accessory power. If the key is on, the gyros are either starting to spin or are spinning at normal speed. Like with any other vehicle, if you lose power at high speed, coast to a stop at the side of the road. At that point perhaps there is a non-powered mechanism to extend the kickstands?

kybernetyk• 14 years ago

> The bearded guy raised the point of needing to trust the vehicle to not fall over

I guess this will be only an issue to people who own a motorcycle already. I on the other hand as someone who never rode a motorcycle would have no problem with the C1. (But maybe that's because I know how reliable gyros are?)

bambax• 14 years ago

Is it really called the C1? "C1" is the name of a scooter with a hard top, distributed by BMW:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1

Joeboy• 14 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5

danielparks3• 14 years ago

I mentioned this in another comment, but "C-1" is a code name. See the FAQ: http://litmotors.com/faq/ (there's no anchor; search for "BMW").

huhtenberg2• 14 years ago

It's also a model in Citroën's C1, C2, C3... line-up -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_C1

Irregardless3• 14 years ago

> Production: 2000–2003

Doesn't sound like it'll be an issue anymore.

pbhjpbhj• 14 years ago

From the video:

"Imagine a touchscreen embedded in the steering-wheel"

Yes, imagine all the crashes it's going to cause.

zalew2• 14 years ago

reminds me of this http://jalopnik.com/5390061/amazon-users-hack-steering-wheel...

pferdefleisch• 14 years ago

I've seen very similar things for sale at gas stations on the side of the highway in Spain. For the long distance commuter.

freehunter2• 14 years ago

Hack? Really Jalopnik? You mean they uploaded pictures and reviews in exactly the way Amazon intended, albeit in a humorous fashion to make a point?

People annoy me far too often.

prof_hobart2• 14 years ago

As a motorcyclist, I'd like the tech to be put into more traditional motorcycle bodies. The idea of not being able to be knocked off, or fall over on an icy road, appeals - but the look of this really doesn't. It reminds me of the similarly named BMW C1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1).

simias3• 14 years ago

I don't think they're going for the biker market. After all, it has a steering wheel, not bike handles. That alone hints that it probably drives somewhat like a car.

prof_hobart2• 14 years ago

The interview suggests that they are after both markets, and this is obviously a prototype vehicle - there's no reason why they couldn't produce both a car replacement and a more stable motorbike as separate vehicle.

happywolf• 14 years ago

A cool-looking vehicle, but wonder how much more weight it has compared to the regular motorcycles? I think embedding a cell phone at the center of steering wheel is a sure-fire way to distract driver attention and cause accidents.

neilmiddleton2• 14 years ago

I'd like to see how this behaves with the typical things that cause a bike to crash, for instance, the front end washing out on ice, or a locked front wheel, or loss of traction on an accelerating rear wheel.

Highsiding this could still happen I guess.

danielparks3• 14 years ago

Seems like the gyroscopes would help with a bunch of those — traction issues become less about keeping the bike upright and more about controlling where the bike goes.

I don't see anything about ABS in the FAQ, but that would avoid the problems of locked front or rear wheels.

Also, I imagine this has only one brake control, unlike a motorcycle, so you can't lock up one wheel by stomping on your rear brake but not grabbing the front brake.

I also wonder how effective the gyroscopes would be against a high-side crash. Would the having to adjust for hills limit their ability to prevent one?

Having a seatbelt seems like it might help with high-sides, too.

danielparks3• 14 years ago

The FAQ is here: http://litmotors.com/faq/

Notably, C-1 is a code name, not the final product name.

I'm curious how the gyros interact with turning. Presumably they have a limited ability to change orientation (necessary for say hills at the very least). It sounds like the steering wheel is hooked to the front wheel mechanically (from the FAQ: ”… with mechanical backups to allow the driver to steer and stop the car even in a catastrophic failure of all systems”). Does that mean you have to countersteer like in a motorcycle? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering)

I could imagine the steering wheel manipulating the gyroscopes to initiate leans rather than turning the front wheel. I'm unsure how effective that would be, especially at low speeds.

EDIT: I looked at some of the videos on their website. It seems like the steering wheel does turn the front wheel, and the gyros are free to tilt to accommodate hills. The video shows them tilting toward each other on a lean — I think that means they rotate in opposite directions? Not my area of expertise.

jentulman3• 14 years ago

Off topic rant, the BBC's Click strand drives me up the wall on occasions that I see any of it. We used to have the wonderful (if haphazard) Tomorrows World as primetime science viewing and now we're left with Click which is broadcast in a time slot for the terminally stoned and apparently produced by ex '... for dummies' editors. And don't get me started on the abysmal Gadget Show.

shrikant• 14 years ago

There's a BBC radio show (which is also now available as a podcast) called The Joy of Tech, which is quite alright (and way better than Click, IMHO) - http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/jot

jentulman3• 14 years ago

Cheers, I'll give that a listen. I ought to stray from Radio4 and 6music a little more often.

coob• 14 years ago

I think you're viewing Tomorrow's World via rose tinted glasses. I loved it as a kid but if you watch an old episode now you're guaranteed to cringe.

jentulman3• 14 years ago

I'm sure I am, but unless I'm remembering it very badly they didn't have quite the same 'OMG Science!' presentation.

The bit about the gyros in the Click video is awful. I was expecting her to use the word boffin at any moment.

fractallyte• 14 years ago

What exactly is wrong with Click? Each programme is broadcast several times over the weekend, so there are plenty of opportunities to catch it.

I like that the presenters don't take technology too seriously - it's refreshing. And for the intended audience, the format is well balanced between 'dumbed down' and informative. I wouldn't expect anything more geeky, from Click or Tomorrow's World (which I remember well).

majke• 14 years ago

I can't get if they are really serious about mass-producing an electric motorcycle. On technical side this company looks like it's run by an individual - Daniel. Team page [1] shows 6 employees not named as "Advisors". Out of who only two are technical (Daniel, the CTO and Kevin).

More worryingly Kevin's linkedin page shows he's not working at Lit Motors for last two months.

Looks like on technical side Daniel is pretty much alone. It's not necessarily bad, maybe they are just starting. I'm just worried they'll disappear.

Does anyone know if they are funded?

[1] http://litmotors.com/lit-team/

Narretz• 14 years ago

As a non-native speaker, "bike" confuses me. This is some sort of motorcycle ... what do you call a bike nowadays that this didn't confuse anyone else?

polymatter• 14 years ago

bicycle = pedal powered bike motorcycle = bike with a motor scooter = bike with a small motor

(I am UK native, but not a bike person)

anjc• 14 years ago

Is there potential for something like this to be safer than a car during a collision, ignoring the fact that it can stay upright? I presume that a car going 30 miles an hour is going to have more of an impact than a baby elephant pushing, so i don't like the idea of being enclosed in a soft shell which is just going to fall over and go under a car.

Is it easier to fit small vehicles like this with things like roll cages, or more encompassing air bags? Or will a car always have a safety edge because of crumple zones etc?

timthorn• 14 years ago

And what happens to the gyros' energy in a crash?

jdbernard2• 14 years ago

Wow, I had not even thought of that. If the integrity of the frame is compromised during the collision that seems a very scary prospect.

goatforce5• 14 years ago

The baby elephant message is cute - i'll know i'm safe if I go to a safari park.

I'm much more interested in what happens if an SUV at speed hits the bike (or, I guess, an adult elephant at speed). I see more SUVs on a day-to-day basis than baby elephants.

blacksmith_tb• 14 years ago

What happens to standard, unenclosed and gyro-less motorcycle in a collision at speed with an SUV? I suppose they are introducing the possibility of being trapped/crushed instead of being thrown or run over, but my sense is the rhetoric about elephants is intended to entice non-riders who wouldn't want to try and handle a motorcycle.

Shivetya• 14 years ago

Enclosed two wheelers do solve the problems of, its too hot, too cold, to wet, and more. Yet the price point isn't sufficient to get me or many others out of cars let alone off of motorcycles.

Twenty four thousand is definitely out there but even twelve thousand will price it beyond the means of many. Many used bikes if not cars will fall under that price and unless gas is just astronomical it becomes a bit hard to justify its purchase. Its a great idea, don't get me wrong. However compared to existing transportation options its very pricey.

Safety wise, with good use of LED lighting one could make it stand out very well in traffic without blinding other drivers because its a bit diminutive for my liking.

neilmiddleton2• 14 years ago

I wouldn't be so sure. Working in GBP that bike would cost me £7K. Say I had it three years, I'm looking at it costing £2.3K a year. Given that with my current commuter bike (a BMW R1100RT) I already have an annual cost of £1250 in fuel alone. That's before considering all the other costs you get with owning a bike.

Add to this that this is considerably more comfortable, more weatherproof, and not a 10 year old like mine it seems a fair price.

Adirael4• 14 years ago

I don't think that's a fair comparison. You're speaking about a 1100cc 90hp machine and comparing it with a small electric motor.

My commuter bike is a 250cc with 28hp. It has 9 years, carbed. Inside the city (less than 100kph) it gets about 3.2L / 100km and 280km per tank. It's cheap as fuck to fix and the bike itself was like 1K (used, around 3-4K new, it's shinny).

bmuon• 14 years ago

Alternatively, there are some enclosed electric tricycles going around that may have some success like the Arcimoto: http://www.arcimoto.com/

spupy• 14 years ago

> a bike using technology found on the International Space Station and the Hubble Space Telescope - gyroscopes

Holly cow, gyroscopes! The technology of space travel!

merraksh• 14 years ago

Previous discussion:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4037645

ericssmith• 14 years ago

A motorcycle turns by 'falling over'. For me, that and the acceleration are the main attractions. Can't imagine this will get many motorcyclists to convert.

Adirael4• 14 years ago

Counter steering. This thing turns like a motorcycle, it's the only way (AFAIK) to turn a two lined wheeled vehicle at speed. It's not a Can-Am.

barrkel4• 14 years ago

It has a steering wheel. Can you imagine counter-steering with a steering wheel? Swerving to avoid something on the road? Gyros would greatly reduce agility if they were not deeply tied into the steering, so I wonder if the steering isn't a direct mechanical linkage.

Too• 14 years ago

This is my biggest question also. How does the thing turn at high velocity with those gyros. Either the gyros has to make the bike fall before the front wheel actually starts turning or you have to manually countersteer which the gyros will try to counter. I find it hard to believe that the gyros will handle the "centrifugal" forces by themselves if you do a sharp turn in high speed.

Did nobody notice that they never show anyone driving the thing more than 5 meters at a time and only straight forward?

And when the reporter is "trying" to knock the thing over she hardly touches it.

I would like to see a video with some rougher scenarios before i believe in this thing.

nemoniac• 14 years ago

I use these Smart cars all the time https://www.car2go.com/ If they made C1s available too, I'd certainly use them.

srlake• 14 years ago

I hope Tesla buys them. Model-B.

Irregardless3• 14 years ago

> One of the most common accidents for motorcyclists is falling while turning a corner.

Yes, due to loss of traction or excessive cornering speed. But those are both issues inherent to two-wheeled vehicles, and adding gyroscopes won't solve either.

So you gain the ability to ride in the rain without wearing rain gear, but you give up cargo space and visibility. Not to mention the fact that your head will now be in the perfect position to get rammed by a bumper, and the lower profile increases the likelihood that other drivers won't see you.

It's a nifty trick, but I don't see who this would appeal to. Most motorcyclists already have rain-proof gear, and non-motorcyclists will still think it's a death trap.

deelowe3• 14 years ago

My thoughts exactly. Staying balanced on a motorcycle isn't even on the list of things that are dangerous about riding one. Once you get over about 10 mph, it's impossible to fall off one.

greghinch• 14 years ago

That's not exactly true, learning to corner properly on a motorcycle is probably the toughest skill to master. That being said, if you ride conservatively you can do just fine with only a little practice.

But yea, the most dangerous part of riding a bike, once you have even just a few months experience, is the other cars on the road (most of whom don't see you).

tankbot3• 14 years ago

> But those are both issues inherent to two-wheeled vehicles, and adding gyroscopes won't solve either.

Did you see the part of the video where they pulled the bike sideways with another vehicle and the gyros kept it upright? If the gyro tech they're using is good enough then the issues you mention are exactly what it will solve. The project still seems to be in its infancy though. They need an investor to come in with some money so they can build more test machines and destroy them with high-speed cornering on slick surfaces and side impacts from larger vehicles.

Irregardless3• 14 years ago

Are you saying their bike will regain traction in a high speed turn by maintaining the lean angle? It'd be interesting to see how it handles that situation, because it would result in a pretty violent high-side on a normal motorcycle.

In that pull test the straps were attached to the bike below its center of gravity. Regaining traction in a turn would be like pulling it with the straps near the top instead, and it could cause some serious problems if the person inside isn't wearing a helmet when that happens at high speed.

imglorp• 14 years ago

I'll address the possible appeal as a diehard daily motorcycle commuter; from 110f down to 20f, anything except ice and snow.

I invested in a decent sport touring bike with ABS and heated grips, plus riding gear. Yes it's warm and dry. There is some irritation where it takes a few minutes to put on all the gear (pants, boots, jacket, gloves, ear plugs, neck gator if cold, and helmet) over work clothes, take them off at work, repeat on the way home. Cargo can be an irritation, needing tying down. A bag of groceries or case of cans is okay but not much more. I need a better way to carry a laptop. Yes, I dropped the bike once, sudden braking at a stop sign. Yes, it's pretty common.

So an enclosed gyro vehicle would improve these issues for me: convenience and cargo. The tippy thing is a minor plus.

The downside: it takes away most of the fun of a bike. The fun is hard to qualify but it involves being outside, connected to the machine, shifting, leaning, braking, and in general micromanaging your outcome.

Am I likely to get one as a commuter? Maybe. A Miyata or Mini would fill a similar bill and buy more utility.

syntax-rules2• 14 years ago

At least it still leans the right way! I think a big part of their pitch was fuel efficiency too, in theory you can get the weight pretty low, although you'll still be in goldwing territory. Also, hard luggage helps a bit on the bike too, but I still spend all winter getting dressed.

duedl0r• 14 years ago

duh.. a guy patented this more than hundred years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_monorail

tsss...

mikek• 14 years ago

Note that he says 'baby elephant' instead of 'car'.

Edit: a baby elephant weighs 3 tons, whereas an average car weights 2 tons. Hmm.

GigabyteCoin• 14 years ago

Cars can carry a lot more inertia than a baby elephant.

rmason• 14 years ago

Does anyone know if the Lit will qualify for the US governments $7500 electric car subsidy?

dbz• 14 years ago

So, you could add gyroscopes to a motorcycle and there would be no difference.

nosse• 14 years ago

"I know what your thinking: a motorcycle that can't be tipped? How is that..." fun? Motorcycles are fun, is this?

chimere• 14 years ago

This actually uses control moment gyroscopes [1] in a scissored-pair configuration, the subject of my undergrad thesis. These differ from standard gyroscopes in that they are gimballed to produce a reaction torque. They are actually most commonly used on large spacecraft for attitude control, so the comment about "technology from the ISS" is quite relevant.

However, the statement that there are "two for redundancy" is dubious. The torque from a control moment gyro is not produced in a constant vector - the torque vector rotates with the gyroscope as it is gimballed. Thus, if there was only one gyro, some component of its output torque would be aligned with the yaw axis, which would create some rather unpleasant and dangerous effects. The scissored-pair configuration is required to cancel out the yaw torque.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_moment_gyroscope

advisedwang• 14 years ago

It sounds quite noisy inside from the video

It will take a 'baby elephant' to knock over this bike [video]

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