Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

http://www.listsofnote.com/2012/04/einsteins-demands.html#

by diggan • 14 years ago

219 185 14 years ago

listsofnote.com

pav3l• 14 years ago

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1211594,00....

davesmylie2• 14 years ago

It's hard to reconcile the popular folk hero that is Einstein with a letter like this.

I suspect a lot of this may come from us not being in a position to judge people from almost 100 years by the standards of today.

scarmig• 14 years ago

I suspect that even a century ago that list of demands would have been seen as very cold and mean.

refurb• 14 years ago

We don't really know the back story is I guess.

I could see if their relationship had completely fallen apart by this point, but that they both wanted to stay together even though they were no longer in love, that a couple could come up with ground rules like this.

Who knows what her list of demands for him were?

PeterisP2• 14 years ago

These aren't 'prenup' demands, these are no-love separation demands. What points exactly feel mean to you?

Requests for lack of intimacy are understandable, given the no love situation. It is strange that the household chores are described - at the time it would be 100% understood that it would be so even if it wasn't written down; apparently it was a problem in their past. I mean, at that time and place, wife not cooking for you would be reasonable grounds for divorce. The "no belittling before our children" is natural as well.

romnempire• 14 years ago

i mean, i don't see what's wrong with it, even by today's standards. she probably didn't work, so it's practically just a relaxed maid contract. i mean, hiring a woman you shared kids with solely as your maid would be weird by today's standards, but bigoted? don't see it.

pfortuny4• 14 years ago

Yeah there was a previous agreement called marriage before which puts that list in a very specific context: it is not a "contractor" relationship.

callmeed• 14 years ago

What's to reconcile? You will find character flaws and chronic bad judgement in the most successful/accomplished people–it will just be in some other area than what they're known for.

John Calvin had a man burned at the stake. Henry Ford was an anti-semite. 8 of the first 10 US presidents owned slaves. And, no, I don't think it's a matter of shifting standards. Look at Bill Clinton, Martha Stewart, etc.

seanmcdirmid3• 14 years ago

Considering Einstein didn't kill anyone...he did OK. No one is a saint (except for maybe a saint, but then I've heard crazy things about Mother Teresa also).

davesmylie2• 14 years ago

Perhaps reconcile was the wrong word . . . I was looking at it more from the "here's a perfect person" image that some historical figures seem to have, versus the fact that everyone (no matter how history makes them out), is still just a flawed human like everyone else.

He may have been one of the most brilliant minds in the last 100 years, but apparently he had a love life that was just as messed up as the rest of us =)

ekianjo3• 14 years ago

Maybe I am missing something but since when was Einstein considered as a "popular folk hero" ? I have never heard of him portrayed as anything but a renowned scientist (with controversial political views).

victorhn• 14 years ago

You must live in another world, as Einstein is maybe the most popular scientist/genius in any part of the world.

nthitz• 14 years ago

"They eventually divorced in 1919, having lived apart for five years."

Surprise surprise...

aidenn0• 14 years ago

Presumably they got divorced so that Albert would be able to marry his second wife that he had been in a relationship with for a while at that point.

tadfisher4• 14 years ago

His second wife also happened to be his first cousin. Interestingly, they shared the "Einstein" surname (their fathers were also first cousins) and would have shared it at the time they married, but Elsa had already married and divorced by that point.

freework2• 14 years ago

This doesn't seem too out of character for Einstein when you think about it. Great scientists are't married to their ideas. As soon as a better theory comes along, it is reasonable for a scientist to abandon the previous theory for the newer one. Once he found a better wife, he dumped here for a better one. Great scientists don't just do science when they're in their laboratory. Great scientists rewire their entire brain to think of everything scientifically.

leak• 14 years ago

Also, the only way she would give him a divorce is by him offering her the Nobel Prize money he knew he would one day win for his work in physics. She took a gamble and gave him the divorce.

wilfra• 14 years ago

This is one of those rare HN posts that would be better to discuss on Reddit. I doubt the community here would do anything but downvote the most appropriate/interesting comments.

monochromatic• 14 years ago

... what?

cup• 14 years ago

Considering the post has already drawn such comments as

> " He was right about so much, you have to wonder if he might have been right to list-slap that gal."

you might be correct.

DanielBMarkham5• 14 years ago

I had heard a while ago that Einstein was a womanizer. Looks like he was a demanding jerk as well.

Just goes to show that there is usually a huge difference between what we think of historical figures and how they actually were.

It's interesting how much we want our heroes to be pure and spotless -- unlike any other humans we encounter.

chimeracoder• 14 years ago

> Just goes to show that there is usually a huge difference between what we think of historical figures and how they actually were.

It shows that people are complicated and multifaceted. While we have a tendency to either laud or vilify figures (with nothing in between), in reality, historical figures can be both "good" and "bad" in different aspects of their lives... just like the rest of us.

My favorite example of this is Helen Keller[1]. Almost nobody these days knows anything about Helen Keller beyond the age of 18 - they know that learned to communicate despite being deaf and blind, but the nearly 70 years of her life after that are almost buried in history.

Which is a shame, because Helen Keller would have been a notable figure in her own right even if it weren't for her disability[2].

But because she was a member of the official Socialist party, we can't use her story as an inspirational lesson and mention that she held political beliefs that we may or may not agree with. Instead have to make a judgement call as to whether her "good" or her "bad[3]" side is more important to teach, and then forget about the rest.

Worse, this principle is applied in reverse to dehumanize people whom history has classified as villains. The result is that our history is filled with monochromatic caricatures, and we forget that, were we to see the complete picture, our modern-day "villains" may not look so different (for better or for worse!)

[1] I believe Loewen talks about this in his excellent book Lies My Teacher Told Me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_My_Teacher_Told_Me)

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller#Political_activiti...

[2] Naturally, this presumes that you either disagree with socialist politics or think that history lessons should be politically neutral, which is the predominant belief in the USA.

aufreak32• 14 years ago

It is more complicated I think even in the case of Einstein. The period of strained relationship mentioned coincides with the period during which he was building up General Relativity (which he published in 1916). Given the intensity of work that would've been needed for that (all that gorgeous new math and physical insights!) with wrong turns to avoid in every move, it is well conceivable that his marriage was placed at risk. This list might even have been his way of expressing that his life priority is finding a unified theory of everything.

Now when I write that, does our welcoming of his great contributions need to make us guilty of also endorsing morals we perceive behind this "list of demands" he made of his wife?

ekianjo3• 14 years ago

Well this was also a different time. You can hardly expect the early 1900s relationships between men and women to be on the same ground as the early 2000s ones. The world has (culturally) changed a lot since then. Do not judge people from the past with today's eyes.

redthrowaway• 14 years ago

Keep in mind that this was in 1919, when the accepted roles of men and women in marriages were very different. It's important, when reading historical documents, not to judge those discussed within by modern standards.

lostlogin2• 14 years ago

Einstein was quite capable of thinking outside the norm. It's lacking context, but this sure doesn't look good.

pfortuny4• 14 years ago

Cultivared men were not jerks then as a general rule.

zachinglis• 14 years ago

The man was highly intelligent. Often intelligence and social skills seesaw (obviously not always.) What he did was wrong by what we know now, but I don't think it came from malice.

stickfigure• 14 years ago

Why do you automatically assume he is a jerk? Do you know more about his personal life than what was mentioned here? How do we know she wasn't a horrible person and this is actually a gracious response?

I really have no idea, but I think it's pretty unfair to make character judgements from a single note out of context. Human relationships are complex.

andrewfelix3• 14 years ago

The OP is making a judgement based on the evidence he has, not on the evidence he doesn't. You on the other hand are attempting to counter his argument with no evidence at all.

If you want to counter the argument, present contrary evidence.

randomdata3• 14 years ago

I have to say, I didn't really come away with the "demanding jerk" impression at all.

She wanted him to stay for the kids and continue to provide for the family. In return, he wanted some help around the house and to ensure emotional disconnect from the relationship that was already dead by this point. I expect couples today would form similar arrangements in the same situation.

klepra5• 14 years ago

So he was doing her a favour? Isn't he a father as well who should think for the best of his children too? So in other case he would just leave her with the children? Demanding 3 meals every day served or else is kind of disrespectful to someone you used to love.

hgnb• 14 years ago

As a sole breadwinner,married to a woman who belittles me in front of our children, who, despite having full-time domestic help, grudgingly provides me with meals, who swings between extreme emotional neediness and rejection for weeks at a time and who occasionally physically attacks me in rages (she was diagnosed with a psychological disorder, but treatment is blocked by her family), I wish I could produce a list like that.

I don't know if Einstein's marriage was similar to mine. Maybe he was a demanding jerk, but the possibility does exist that he was reacting to the circumstances he found himself in.

kevinconroy• 14 years ago

From one husband to another, hang in there man and in all sincerity, best of luck.

dredmorbius• 14 years ago

From someone who's been through part of that (though without the kids), if you can possibly find an out, do.

georgeorwell2• 14 years ago

Assuming you truly have the desire to change things and that you actually want help, here is some unsolicited advice: go into individual therapy for yourself and if possible try to start couple's therapy too. Look for long-term once-a-week therapy and don't be afraid to shop around for therapists because it's important that you like the person.

If that seems too daunting, order The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by Beverly Engel or get it out of the library. It's a good starting point and in general books written by therapists are a great complement to therapy.

http://www.amazon.com/Emotionally-Abusive-Relationship-Abuse...

If not for yourself, do this for your children, who suffer as much as you - if only because you and your wife are so important to them - but are helpless to change the situation.

jacquesm10• 14 years ago

That does not sound like a situation with a lot of potential for happy endings. I wish you lots of strength.

klipt• 14 years ago

If you're the breadwinner, why don't you hire the domestic help to make meals for you and the kids, and incidentally help your wife if there's time left over?

gsk• 14 years ago

I understand the pain (I have been in a similar position, less harsh than yours though, now things have turned out OK). There is one thing that has helped me through: showing unconditional kindness, regardless of the situation. I also read Buddha (I am not religious, Buddha was an exceptional man who understood much and took the time to show how to do relationships well).

narag3• 14 years ago

she was diagnosed with a psychological disorder, but treatment is blocked by her family

Sounds familiar. I wonder if her family would rethink their position when they had to suffer her.

Just a little fact: unless you divorce soon, you'll develop some mental symptons yourself, if you hadn't already. And don't be fooled: you're not making any favor to your children staying.

If I can be of any help, my email is in my profile.

wellpast• 14 years ago

I agree that this isn't enough to judge Einsteins morality, but it is interesting the tendency to want our heroes to be noble people. James Thurber wrote a wonderful short story about this -- The Greatest Man in the World.

csomar• 14 years ago

I had heard a while ago that Einstein was a womanizer.

You'll need sufficient proof for that. Not just "heard".

Looks like he was a demanding jerk as well.

Really? Asking for 3 meals a day and laundry? Maybe he's the one responsible for paying all the bills. Don't read half the story.

Also, I think their relationship is broken already, they were just keeping an "MVP" for the children.

You will undertake not to belittle me in front of our children, either through words or behavior.

That could also tell that the wife is not that innocent too.

pyre• 14 years ago

IIRC, he cheated on his wife with his cousin. I don't have web reference. I went to an Einstein exhibit (at the OMSI) that had a bunch of hand-written letters and such by him (in addition to attempting to make his theories more accessible). Though 'cheated' might be a little relative. I think that he may have just been spending a lot of time with her and writing her love-letters rather than just sleeping with her.

Here are some quick links I turned up on the exhibit:

http://eastpdxnews.com/general-news-features/explore-space-a...

http://www.flickr.com/groups/alberteinstein/pool/tags/omsi/

The Flickr link has a bunch of photos of the documents, but I don't none of them are labelled, so it may be a bit time-consuming to search for anything specific.

kasra• 14 years ago

He reminds me of Sheldon Cooper.

dm8• 14 years ago

I had same reaction. It looks unerringly similar to Sheldon Cooper's relationship agreement. May be writers of Big Bang Theory might have referred to this letter to draft that.

001sky2• 14 years ago

This reads exactly like an employer/employee relationship. [1]

-- Whether ironically or obviously ... is harder to tell.

________

[1] eg, no sexual expectations of a colleague (ie, harassment), no disturbing a colleague's work/space, no insulting in public manner (of a colleague in front of clients, etc).

sarah2079• 14 years ago

This makes him sound like a jerk, but man was life tough for couples who stopped getting along back when men did all the income earning and women did all the child care and housework. This actually seems like an OK arrangement when you think about it in that context, they were both holding up their ends of the bargain. It just makes me glad that both men and women are more independent these days.

macey• 14 years ago

Most of these demands relate in some way to staving off a meaningful emotional connection, keeping things "all-business" etc. There's significant evidence that Einstein had a form of high-functioning autism (likely Asperger's). A signature symptom of Asperger's syndrome is discomfort with emotional intimacy and a lesser capacity for empathy.

I can't say if that's true or not, but if you combine these symptoms with the state of women's' rights at the time, this really isn't surprising at all - and in any case, there are far more explicit examples of sexism from this period.

sliverstorm• 14 years ago

At least Point D seems reasonable, he's only 75% cold?

saheel1511• 14 years ago

I see lots of people commenting how Einstein was a jerk, etc. But somehow, I think that list (if it's real) just shows that he wanted order (and control?) in everything he did, which doesn't resonate as bad to me. We have no idea what kind of relationship he had with his wife, so I think it is unfair to judge him like that solely based on that list, more so, because his wife accepted it!

illuminate2• 14 years ago

"more so, because his wife accepted it"

That people cope with emotional abuse in different ways does not justify emotional abuse. As plenty of people mentioned in the thread, this was a different time when women had less possibilities and support systems for themselves.

randomdata3• 14 years ago

She couldn't really expect him to be the sole breadwinner for the family, and do all the housework, and be always there for her emotional needs. There has to be some give and take. I'm not sure why his request for a reasonably equitable partnership would be considered abuse?

These are, most likely, the issues that lead to the demise of the relationship in the first place. It is the only way their living arrangement would be able to continue at all.

unreal373• 14 years ago

We have no way of knowing WHO was the emotional abuser, or even if any emotional abuse was going on. That's quite a leap from what we know.

pfortuny4• 14 years ago

Oh yeah there are a lot of children accepting labour conditions in the East of Asia with which we get scandalized and the. this is ok: she accepted! come on....

Tichy6• 14 years ago

It must have been really hard to clean up the room and prepare three meals a day. I wonder how the women of the time did manage at all? Clearly the asian child laborers should let themselves be inspired by their example.

I don't really understand the fuss. At the time it was a normal arrangement in marriage for women to take care of the house. That arrangement in itself is not belittling to women, it is simply division of labor. Household chores are not less worthy than other labor (if you believe they are, see what feminism did, apparently it belittles women even more). The letter says nothing about his wife not being allowed to pursue other options. Even today some people voluntarily choose such arrangements. And it is merely his conditions, she is free to not accept them.

mladenkovacevic2• 14 years ago

As the resident Serb here I should point out a Wikipedia page on Mileva Maric who was a brilliant scientific mind in her own right: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mileva_Maric There are even some theories that she helped him early on in his career although there is no strong evidence to support that theory. As part of the divorce agreement Einstein made with Mileva, his Nobel Prize money was transferred to her and in trust for their two sons.

klepra5• 14 years ago

Why are Serbs always pointing out their nationality?

hilko• 14 years ago

Any ideas on why?

ChrisAnn• 14 years ago

So that we don't go around assuming everyone on the internet is American...

gardarh• 14 years ago

Perhaps a majority of people posting on HN are Serbs but only a small proportion of them declare their nationality.

theorique6• 14 years ago

Because Serbs are awesome!

mladenkovacevic2• 14 years ago

I've posted hundreds of comments here on HN but I believe this is the first time I have voluntarily proclaimed my "Serb-ness" so perhaps I am not the typical Serb that is always pointing out their nationality (and I only did it this time because it was the reason I know about Mileva Maric). But I have a few theories as to why you may think we are always pointing our nationality or at least seem to:

1) It is a immigrant thing. When you feel that you are being identified as the "other" you get the urge to preemptively "come out of the closet" as an immigrant in a show of good will towards your native hosts and try to fit in. It's a way of saying "Hey guys, I know I am this scary foreigner, but really I'm just like you so can we be friends?" I've experienced this with people of many other nationalities and ethnicities where the conversation will inevitably turn into them telling me about their country of origin.. which I don't mind since I enjoy learning about different cultures.

2) Maybe you encounter a disproportionate number of Serbian people in your daily life so point #1 is magnified, or perhaps because of your own background or personal reasons you are overly sensitive to the idea of Serbian identity.

3) Serbs do tend to be sensitive about their ethnic identity because many of us feel that we have been misrepresented and not entirely fairly villainized in the media, while at the same time also being victims of long standing ethnic hatred in our native countries, so insecurity borne out of that treatment motivates an exaggerated sense of nationalism in some of us.

Hopefully one of those, or a combination of them, explains why "Serbs are always pointing out their nationality".

bitwize2• 14 years ago

They want to be known for something besides being involved in that war Clinton intervened in during the 90s.

If you're from a place that doesn't get a lot of international press, it's natural to feel pride when a person from that place is met with acclaim. My high school teachers probably still talk about the fact that most of them also taught a writer for The Simpsons.

masterponomo• 14 years ago

He was right about so much, you have to wonder if he might have been right to list-slap that gal.

sethbannon• 14 years ago

The entire site is, unfortunately for productivity, a treasure trove of interesting historical lists. For instance: http://www.listsofnote.com/2012/04/simple-rules-for-life-in-...

prawn• 14 years ago

From a different site, but relationship oriented: Charles Darwin's list covering the pros and cons of marriage:

http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2012/08/14/darwin-lis...

noonespecial2• 14 years ago

My favorite:

F × S = k. The product of Freedom and Security is a constant. To gain more freedom of thought and/or action, you must give up some security, and vice versa. These remarks apply to individuals, nations, and civilizations. Notice that the constant k is different for every civilization and different for every individual.

  --Larry Niven

crntaylor• 14 years ago

The k = 0 case is an interesting one.

revgeeky• 14 years ago

Like a boss!

zoba• 14 years ago

Differently from most other comments, I didn't see this as Einstein being a jerk. I more feel compassion for him since, to me, this list is like an admission of his solitude.

It must be quite lonely being so unique as Einstein. Most people have a hard enough time finding someone who they can relate to. When you're as publicly distinguished as he was I imagine finding someone to relate to must've felt entirely hopeless. Particularly since she was a bright woman, and 'on paper' should've been a good match and now it wasn't working out.

Einstein's second marriage was with his cousin which could be seen as more evidence of his desire to be able to relate to someone. Having family history probably helped them feel close, and he probably gave up on someone being able to relate to his intellectual pursuits by that time.

Unfortunately I don't have any hard evidence to point to support my ideas. I have been thinking of this since Steve Jobs died and have been wondering how such unique people like him, Einstein, and others dealt with not being able to feel true connection with another human being.

ricardobeat• 14 years ago

Drifting off-topic, but according to written history SJ did have strong relationships with his wife, children and friends.

unreal373• 14 years ago

Now way off topic, but I don't think Steve Jobs is comparable to Einstein in the same way. Einstein needed long months of solitude to come up with his formulas, which must have been brutal on his family and friend relationships. Steve Jobs had other people execute his vision.

erichocean• 14 years ago

I'm not disagreeing, but I'll add that having "vision" itself is a form of execution.

Sometimes I think we give the impression that having "vision" is like some innate quality a person has, and not the result of intense effort over a long period of time, which is what it actually is.

freework2• 14 years ago

I think there are two types of 'geniuses'. One type is 'people geniuses'. These are people like Steve Jobs, Ronald Reagan, Sarah Palin, Billy Mays, etc. These people are geniuses in the way they were able to understand people and get the to do things (vote for them, buy their products). The other type of genius are the 'systems genius'. These are people like Tesla, Einstein, Newton, etc. The first group are not renown for their intelligence, the second group are not renown for their people skills.

jacquesm10• 14 years ago

Lots of judgments in this thread.

Don't judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. And keep in mind that we're looking at all this from almost a century later and that society has moved on quite a bit. Things that my grandparents would have considered perfectly a-ok would look ridiculous to you and me. Context is everything.

In plenty of places in the world this would be an 'amicable arrangement' even today.

Mote, beam, eye etc.

Without knowing what went on before this it is very hard to judge the list. Maybe they reached a stage of armistice and decided to live like this for the sake of their kids. Whatever it was, it spells out tragedy rather than malice.

rehack• 14 years ago

Agree with you. Otherwise, it was totally puzzling to me a simplistic, judgmental view calling him a jerk as a top comment.

Don't know how many people have been married a long time here (i.e. > 10 years). Looking at the responses, it seems to me not that many.

Thankfully, my marriage is several orders better than his was. But still I can perhaps see where the conditions are coming from.

Just to take an example - C(3) - you will leave my bedroom or study immediately without protest if I request it.

I can see that for whatever reasons any fights between a husband (who works from home) and wife start when the husband is nicely all set to begin the day's work. It may be over a trivia discussion (perhaps because the husband has some work related frustration) or it could be the result of something building up. Now as a husband who is working from home, does not even have the choice to go to work elsewhere, in such a situation. And the argument/discussion/fight won't end until one person leaves the place. And countless hours can get lost, for a trivia thing.

waterlesscloud2• 14 years ago

It's a pretty safe bet that most people reading this know a couple living under terms a lot like these. Right now. Today.

The fact that we're often not aware of it doesn't change the reality.

When it comes to other people's relationships, the one thing you can be absolutely sure of is that you don't really understand them.

mmaunder• 14 years ago

I agree re not judging. I made the mistake a very long time ago to assume that I understood someone else's relationship and gave them advice on what I thought was an obvious matter. After a decade my friend is now happily married to that same person with amazing kids and a wonderful life. It's become clear to me that there are two sides to a relationship and no one except the participants will ever understand it.

So I think the important thing to understand when reading this is that we have zero context - and perhaps worse because all we know are Einstein's works.

olavk• 14 years ago

The biography by Walter Isaacson puts this into context.

gavanwoolery2• 14 years ago

Even in a modern context, I do not think this list makes Einstein sexist (or a jerk).

If my girlfriend did not work, I would ask her to take care of all the chores and meals (which would probably be, at most, 20 hours a week of work). Accordingly, I do not see items A[1-3] on the list as unreasonable, given his wife was not employed at this period in their life. I also happen to be very particular about my desk area, given I spend most of my sorry life in front of it. :)

Einstein wanted to stay together for the sake of his children, but had clearly fallen out of love with his wife. If you had a lot of work to do, you probably would not want to be bothered with socializing with a person you no longer loved. He gave her the best options he could - even after she left him, he paid her half his salary and gave her his Nobel Prize money (which was enough to buy three houses, among other things), even though this was not legally required.

Mostly, this just seems like a list by a man who wants to be left alone so he can work, not a bad person.

dalke5• 14 years ago

I find your comment to be belittling. The amount of chores one does is inversely proportional to the amount of money brought home?

"If my girlfriend did not work" is a shorthand for something else. I think it's shorthand for "sit around being lazy all day", which is an emotional decision and not the overt economical one. If your girlfriend is going to school full-time, then that's not work. Would you expect her to put in up to 20 hours of chores and meals on top of her studies? I don't think so.

Ahh, but perhaps you also meant to include potentially income-generating work (like studies) along with income-generating work?

Which then means that if your girlfriend gets disability pay then she doesn't have to do as many chores, right? Since even if she watches the TV all day she's still bringing in some money, as a consequence of work she's already done. (This can be extended to living off of a trust fund, or off royalty income.)

If you had children then would she also need to spend 100% of her time raising the children, on top of the chores? At what point do you start helping? Can you assign a monetary value on that?

Or, if you were making $1 million per year, then would you still request that she do all of the chores and meals? Because then it feels petty, when you could easily hire others to do it instead, and she can pursue her life's dream of developing free online education courses.

In the modern context, the delegation of chores is based on a combination of factors, including available time, interest in doing so, and tolerance of what happens when it isn't done. If you don't like it and can't deal with it, then you break up. In the modern context, breaking up or even getting a divorce is a simple task with little social stigma. Hence you have very little power over your girlfriend. If you "ask her to take care of all the chores and meals" then she can say "no", and leave.

100 years ago there was a much higher power imbalance. The woman couldn't easily say "no" and leave, even if the demands of the man were unreasonable, because it was much harder for her to have a normal life post-separation than for him.

In any case, simply saying "if my girlfriend did not work" is belittling because it assumes that work is the only thing that's important in a relationship, and it's secondarily gender biased because men tend to have higher incomes than women.

narag3• 14 years ago

Without knowing what went on before this it is very hard to judge the list.

On the other hand, the list is perfect to figure out what had happened before: their home was a mess, meals were spotty, there were frequent discussions that prevented him from work and she belittled him in front of their children.

That's not to say that the situation was her fault.

dalke5• 14 years ago

It isn't perfect. It's a list of complaints, and it could be entirely false. The home could have been spotless, but Einstein, besotted with dreams of how much better life would be with his cousin (and future second wife), complained anyway.

I had a relationship once where (and this is my perhaps incorrect, post hoc attempt at understanding what happened) my girlfriend didn't want to be the one who broke up, so she made more and more demands on me until finally I had enough. The demands in the list could be indicative of that sort of behavior, and not a true description of the situation.

DanielBMarkham5• 14 years ago

Since I seem to be the target of this comment I'll respond.

Einstein was human. The purpose of using the phrases "womanizer" and "demanding jerk" was emotional -- we think of our heroes in pure terms. To associate them with negative judgmental phrases (such that we might easily use with anybody else in the world we meet) causes us distress.

And from what I understand, Einstein chased women all his life, even during his second marriage. How he and his second wife got along with this is anybody's guess.

But to focus on Einstein or his faults (or my easy judgement of him) is to miss the point. We read this list and we feel disjointed -- cognitive dissonance. How can such a great man speak like this to one who loves him? The reaction shouldn't be to start naval-gazing at our on judgment of others. The reaction should be to realize that we have only a very simple and cartoonish view of the world. People who did a lot of good in the world had some really big flaws. People who did a lot of evil in the world had redeeming qualities. If we really want to understand these folks, we need to see them in their own terms, not how mass media portrays them.

Perhaps some folks want to canonize some and demonize others. I much prefer to live in a world full of folks just like me -- human. The more I start glossing over faults? The more I'm missing out on all the good parts of history.

Look. Einstein was a womanizer. Galileo was a bit of a jerk. Newton was unhealthily obsesses with numbers. Martin Luther King Jr also chased women. Hell Nash was officially certifiable. If the only thing you get out of all my statements is that I'm judgmental, you're missing the point. Worse yet your'e missing all the good stuff, the parts of history people don't talk about. I'm not saying these men are bad; I'm saying they're just like the rest of us.

jacquesm10• 14 years ago

The problem isn't a judgment per se, it is judging based on evidence ripped completely out of time and place. Context is missing here and without that context you really can't say at all whether this was either a jerk making demands or someone exhibiting the patience of a saint. Even with a biography as a guide you still can't make a call like that.

The private affairs between two people are best left alone unless you get an active invitation from both participants to state what you think, and even then you're going to have to work really hard to figure out what an objective viewpoint would be. Judging is easy, deciding when explicitly not to judge is a lot harder.

And I wasn't judging you either ;)

e40• 14 years ago

Look around at all the exceptional people of our time. Jobs. Ellison. Every gifted, and I mean truly gifted, person I know or know about had a bizarre upbringing or background, and the vast majority of them are complete jerks. To rise above what is normal, it really helps if you are not given normal upbringing and stimuli early in life. And, when that is the case, you will likely step outside the bounds of what normal society views as acceptable behavior. Jobs is the best example from our time. By his own authorized biography, he was a complete asshole, but he did amazing things.

PeterisP2• 14 years ago

The situation isn't [described as] "How can such a great man speak like this to one who loves him?" - it's the situation where the love-marriage has ended, and they are staying together for the kids and for practical reasons only.

Read it as a "roommate agreement" of a sort.

Shorel• 14 years ago

"How can such a great man speak like this to one who loves him?"

There's your problem. You are supposing the existence of a feeling where it was probably another, probably opposite, feeling.

All your rant is based on a probably false premise.

wildranter2• 14 years ago

To the individuals who are defending Einstein's behaviour towards his wife, I'm sorry to inform, you'll be ripped off of everything you have in a messy divorce. If you really think that's the right way to treat a person, please do a favor to humanity, marry your hand.

Now that aside, looks like Einstein was human after all. And one full of behavioural defects for that matter. He could've handled that in a much more civilized, and I dare to say, adult way by just having a honest conversation with his wife.

It's very easy to explain your goals, and why you need cooperation from your family to achieve them. If you can't, you have deeper problems than not being able to work properly.

wildranter2• 14 years ago

To the downvoters, I meant it as a personal advice. However, your disaproval yield two things:

Firstly, I'm right. Down voting what I said doesn't alter the truth embedded within. Unless you change your mind and grow your heart, you're gonna get screwed by a divorce lawyer.

Secondly, it's just a freking integer on my screen, I like better floats! No mater how much that counter gets decremented you're still looking at it from the wrong perspective.

dyeje• 14 years ago

You know after reading the comments on here I was expecting something really horrific. It was pretty short and not all that ludicrous when the time period is taken into account.

smadaan• 14 years ago

Without making this about judging a specific person in a certain context, what are the implications today?

(Some) folks seem to suggest that since Einstein was working on something as significance as GR, the solitude prioritized over family made sense. If Einstein's work had not succeeded, would the justifications still hold?

Actually... the question on my mind is: every person trying to do something on their own believes in their heart that it is the most important thing, something that will change the world. How far should one take that conviction/belief as justification to forego responsibilities of being a spouse or parent?

Tichy6• 14 years ago

Doesn't a person have the right to demand solitude either way? He presented his conditions for getting on with the marriage. The alternative is to simply get a divorce. If what he needs is solitude, what is he supposed to do? I mean I don't see where the guilt comes from?

nu2ycombinator• 14 years ago

conditions reminded me of Sheldon from Big bang theory tv series

stuaxo• 14 years ago

No wonder she looks a bit pissed off in that picture !

sayYaeah• 14 years ago

Or 'What To Send Your Wife If You Want a Divorce'.

Ilmarinen• 14 years ago

Why is this piece of celebrity gossip on hacker news?

sh_vipin• 14 years ago

Probably because it was after his divorce we got the famous quote ( which applies so well to entrepreneurship ) - "A person who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."

maked00• 14 years ago

Poor guy, sounds like he married his mom. She must have been a real harpy. All perfectly reasonable requests.

frendiversity• 14 years ago

People are naturally manipulative, especially in relationships, and people naturally play mind-games without necessarily knowing they are.

A quarrel ending in a door-slam can have damaging effects on the psyche, as a common example that most of you have experienced. It can make it difficult to concentrate.

This just seems to me to be a typical negotiation tool during a relationship gone wrong, trying to prevent further emotional distress. Nothing to see here.

mattacular• 14 years ago

This comes as a huge shock... developers on HN defending obviously misogynistic behavior with an ample dose of cognitive dissonance and mansplaining.

Also since when does staying together in a terrible relationship benefit the children? That is a specious argument at best.

CletusTSJY• 14 years ago

Like a boss.

Just kidding, this list is ridiculous and he should have never married if this is what he was expecting.

mcgwiz• 14 years ago

His goal was to create a sustainable relationship with her, and therefore he proposed a new set of expectations of her in consideration of his household cash flow. She consented to them; she wasn't forced to. This resembles a typical "live-in servant" relationship. The only strange part is that this falls out of a prior arrangement/agreement that was considered a "marriage" relationship. It's obviously no longer marriage in spirit, so why all the judgment of it that way?

Einstein's list of conditions for staying together with his wife

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