Buy Nothing Day

http://www.adbusters.org/campaigns/bnd

by krisc • 14 years ago

49 77 14 years ago

untog• 14 years ago

Funny that this is so high up on Hacker News. The first quote on the page:

“Today, humanity faces a stark choice: save the planet and ditch capitalism, or save capitalism and ditch the planet.”

There won't be too many startup accelerators or funding rounds when we ditch capitalism, folks. Funny how there was none of this talk on iPhone Launch Day, either...

fleitz3• 14 years ago

But there will be untold millions for those lucky enough to win the political patronage lottery.

mseebach10• 14 years ago

No one is claiming that we can't or shouldn't try to fix the problems with the system.

sp332• 14 years ago

It's too bad they tied the word "capitalism" to the specific, "short term gains at all cost" system we have now. I guess it's not too surprising really, since most people only think of Marxism when someone says "communism" etc. But of course it's possible to have a good, responsible and caring society without ditching capitalism.

krisc4• 14 years ago

Doesn't pg commenting on this thread validate it's relevance? I posted this because I wanted to see a hacker discussion of this topic.

fleitz3• 14 years ago

“Today, humanity faces a stark choice: save the planet and ditch capitalism, or save capitalism and ditch the planet.”

Move to North Korea, everyday is buy nothing day and best of all, none of that horrid capitalism.

bravoyankee4• 14 years ago

A culture can stop being capitalistic and consumer-driven without becoming a fear driven dictatorship.

Do you equate spending money with freedom and civil liberties? Is that the only way for you and I to be free, is to buy things?

rfrey2• 14 years ago

Economic liberty seems to be a precondition for strong civil liberties, although certainly not sufficient.

Also, class mobility seems to be most likely in a society with high economic activity, since there is a lot of demand to be filled and therefore the opportunity to fill it.

mseebach10• 14 years ago

Yes, the only way you can be free is to be free to produce, buy and sell things. And to do a million other activities that other people might not find virtuous.

philwelch• 14 years ago

> A culture can stop being capitalistic and consumer-driven without becoming a fear driven dictatorship.

Do you have an empirical example of this?

shuzchen• 14 years ago

The funny thing is that the people in North Korea only survived due to capitalism. Because the government has been incapable of distributing food, people have been forced to obtain it by trading in ad-hoc black markets.

lutusp• 14 years ago

Yes, and also by periodic acts of charity from capitalist countries. North Korea asserts its right to have any political system it wants, then its programs fail, then it threatens war, then the west gives in and provides emergency food supplies. Then the process repeats.

bravoyankee4• 14 years ago

No, that's closer to market socialism than capitalism.

rizzom5000• 14 years ago

Really, the American brand of capitalism isn't the same as European capitalism or Japanese capitalism. Even within America, there are many different types of capitalist economies.

While I share Adbuster's disgust with the hordes of zombie sheep lining up to consume in excessive quantity things that they do not need, I don't think this has anything to do with Capitalism as an economic philosophy.

illuminate8• 14 years ago

"I don't think this has anything to do with Capitalism as an economic philosophy"

The manner in which Capitalism is implemented and followed is just as important as abstract philosophy. Deeds, not words.

jmduke• 14 years ago

It's important to read any adbusters content with their context in mind. I think they produce a lot of interesting content, but their agenda (I don't mean that to be denigrating) muddles a lot of their arguments.

This article to me makes an important point -- Black Friday has pretty much descended into self-parody -- but couching it as an anti-capitalism argument (instead of an anti-consumerism one) ruins the message for me.

rohern8• 14 years ago

This is crap reasoning, sorry jmduke. You might as well say that you need to read the writing of a racist while keeping in mind that he is a racist, so you should not worry too much when he makes racist statements.

The criticisms that people are positing here are exactly criticisms of the agenda of Adbusters. The whole thing is about keeping their context in mind and objecting to it.

Millennium• 14 years ago

You know, I wasn't actually thinking about doing any shopping today. But if Anonymous and Occupy have gotten on the bandwagon, I think I may just have to stop by my local Wal-Mart and take advantage of some of those deals.

fleitz3• 14 years ago

Occupy is pretty much a product of adbusters. Companies sell consumer goods to those unable to produce, Adbusters sells consumer ideologies for those unable to think.

aw3c2• 14 years ago

I had an instant anti reaction when I saw the mask and the #occupy

clobber3• 14 years ago

> I think I may just have to stop by my local Wal-Mart and take advantage of some of those deals

Yeah, that's the spirit. Head on over and contribute to the problem [1][2][3]

1. http://robertreich.org/post/36219730368

2. http://www.thenation.com/blog/171389/worker-group-alleges-wa...

3. http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/support-...

drivebyacct2• 14 years ago

So it's either go nuts and trample people or buy nothing and I must be in debt because of credit cards?

pg3• 14 years ago

People who think it's bad to want the world economy to grow probably haven't stopped to think about what economic growth consists of. Economic growth isn't just fat Americans buying bigger SUVs. It's also people in poor countries increasing their standard of living, and advances in medical care.

balsam2• 14 years ago

could there be a case however against economic growth being too fast? an example of too fast would be building a chernobyl before the safety infrastructure was up.

rohern8• 14 years ago

I am not sure how shoddy engineering equates with too fast economic growth. That seems like defining your terms so generally that they can refer to almost anything.

I also think it is ironic that you chose as an example an infrastructure project not built as the result of capitalism.

orijing• 14 years ago

I wouldn't consider that growth, though.

mseebach10• 14 years ago

As others have pointed out, Chernobyl is a terribly example for the point you're trying to make.

Growth can probably be too fast - China has some problems in this regard, infrastructure, basic services, environmental concerns, the political system etc. can't quite keep up with the reasonable demands of a rapidly growing new middle class.

The growth rates attainable for the US and Europe, however, are unlikely to be dangerous.

illuminate8• 14 years ago

Criticizing globalism and the externalities of "wanting the world economy to grow" is not an argument against increasing the standards of living worldwide, and I'm not sure why you're conflating the two.

rohern8• 14 years ago

His point is that one of the main avenues for the poor to leave poverty is through capitalistic action. If you are arguing for the restriction of that behavior, you are arguing for the restriction of opportunities to leave behind poverty.

As pathetic as it is to see people camping out at Wal-mart to buy products they do not particularly need (indeed, many of them would be better off if they saved the money that they will spend today), one of the results of that behavior is additional economic opportunity for poor countries and poor people.

You could state a case that the net gain from this behavior makes it not worth having, as the social and environmental costs of using natural and human resources to produce unneeded products obfuscates the value of the resultant economic growth, but then you would need to present data and math.

pg3• 14 years ago

The site specifically says we have to challenge the idea "that the economy must always keep growing."

creatrixcordis5• 14 years ago

Yeah right!!! Nice spin on it dude. Increasing their standard of living while being subject to poor environmental conditions because of their corrupt officials who are pushed to be corrupt by our corrupt politicians, and so on. It's easy for you to say that while living in the land of the plenty and the so called free. Why dont you focus exclusively on startups with a whole-world(env-friendly) minded approach, because you my friend are in a position to impact the world for the good more than other people. Im sure the over consumption could be regulated a bit by a buy nothing day, its no different than a turn off your lights day, it's actually better than that, it forces us to ask why do we buy? And if your answer to that is "to be happy" oh man you have swallowed the wrong pill when given the choice. -a person that will never kiss your ass

MSM2• 14 years ago

I buy plenty of things to make me happy.

I don't need the internet. Either do you. I also don't need to eat anything other than bean tortillas, but I will. I could probably get through my life wiping with single ply, but I'd rather have double.

If that makes me a bad guy in your eyes, ah well. I'm sure a few of the beers I went out my way to purchase will ease the pain.

guelo• 14 years ago

That was an ad hominem response to the question of can we continue using resources at an ever increasing rate. That includes asking if the world can afford to bring the poor up to western living standards. They are ugly questions but it doesn't make sense to burry our heads in the sand about them.

mseebach10• 14 years ago

I don't think anyone is burying their heads over this. The answer is "maybe not", but the followup is that there is absolutely no moral compass on which is would be even remotely acceptable to take even the smallest step to prevent the global poor to become as rich as we are.

pg3• 14 years ago

I don't think ad hominem is the phrase you want here. I think what you mean is, the more important question is whether we can continue to consume resources at the rate we do. And my reply to that is that creating more wealth doesn't necessarily imply consuming more resources. For example, new versions of machines often consume less power, not more.

krisc4• 14 years ago

You're right, but I think the main point of the campaign is to show that the way the world economy is growing is harmful to our planet.

Strilanc• 14 years ago

You get to feel good about not buying stuff, and then the next day you still get to buy stuff!

Alright, alright, they do have better ideas for a "delay gratification" message. Credit card cut-up (pre-commitment) and zombie walks (exposure) sound like good ideas.

Don't make a day about not doing something negative, make it about doing something positive. Don't turn off your power for a day, spend a day installing better insulation so you need less power.

alainbryden3• 14 years ago

I buy nothing about 95% of the days in a year. I don't get why this is supposed to make such a difference?

subleq• 14 years ago

This leaves 18 days per year to buy things, each 20 days from the last. Do you grow your own food, or do you eat only nonperishables?

alainbryden3• 14 years ago

I shop for groceries about once per month, to buy food in bulk then freeze bread, meat and veggies. I grow some veggies in the backyard during the summer. I'm not the healthiest eater, mostly I just hate shopping. This gives me 6 misc days to buy gifts for birthdays and things.

I guess this doesn't count jumping on the odd humble indie bundle.

illuminate8• 14 years ago

That 5% of purchases makes up the majority of these retailers profits is why.

alainbryden3• 14 years ago

That is irrelevant to the point at hand - asking everyone to not buy things on one day, even if successful, merely postpones the retailers' revenues by a day or so.

A more poignant campaign would revolve around convincing people not to buy certain unnecessary things at all, ever.

craig552uk• 14 years ago

ditto

jeremyarussell2• 14 years ago

Is it just me that's sick and tired of all these extreme all or nothing causes? It's either no patents or leave it the same, it's either capitalism is all bad or all good, it's either we are saving the planet or burning it as we go.

You know we can just change certain laws in the patent system to get it fixed right?

You understand that the idea of someone being able to sale their hard work for a living isn't evil right?

Or that maybe just making a true concerted effort of a smaller carbon footprint is enough? We don't need to ban all gas lines, or coal and replace it all with solar wind farms.

Consider this, we are fighting other people's ideals with equally extreme ideals and then wonder why the world doesn't see our brilliance. They think all of torrenting technology is evil because it allows for easier "unauthorized" access of someone else's creative content. It's a tool people. Capitalism isn't bad, overly greedy people are bad, and they just happen to love capitalism.

It's called moderation.

illuminate8• 14 years ago

"It's called moderation."

If moderation was the natural state of things, we wouldn't have to argue for it.

jeremyarussell2• 14 years ago

Which is why I argue for it. Humans do have the ability to override their natural way of thinking, until that day is no longer true I guess I'll keep arguing for the case of moderation.

bhickey• 14 years ago

I was pleased to see a recent PETA campaign advocating for the use of controlled atmosphere killing of poultry. Rather than their typical sensationalist approach (ex. http://www.peta.org/features/would-you-eat-a-chickens-period...) that appeal only to the faithful. They made economic arguments:

Typical slaughterhouse practices are stressful for workers and lead to damaged product.

Improving worker conditions decreases employee turn over and boosts yield.

It's probably wishful thinking to take this as a signal they're transitioning to become a serious advocacy organization.

krisc4• 14 years ago

No capitalism and go environment is definitely the overarching theme in this campaign. And I do believe that the prevailing capitalism is damaging to our earth. But they also make a point in advocating the support of local business to stimulate the local economy.

mseebach10• 14 years ago

The thinly veiled celebration of violence is disgusting. The image from this poster: http://www.adbusters.org/content/carnivalesque-rebellion-liv...

seems to be a Reuters photo with this caption:

"AVIANO, Italy (Reuters) - A protestor throws a rock at riot police outside the Aviano Air base in northern Italy Sunday. More than 300 protestors took part in the demonstration against NATO's air strikes on Yugoslavia. Photo by Stefano Rellandini"

(found at http://home.hiwaay.net/~craigg/g4c/NATO-help.htm)

Buy Nothing Day

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