VRChat: “There are more Japanese creators than all other countries combined”

https://twitter.com/chyadosensei/status/2001356290531156159

by numpad0 • 7 months ago

77 54 7 months ago

crooked-v• 7 months ago

The Japanese market on Booth also seems to be much more original than the English-speaking market, or at least that's the impression I get from the ten billion English-description avatars out there that are the same "bone white goth girl with a huge chest" templates with different yet basically interchangeable overloads of tattoos and piercings.

jeffwask• 7 months ago

Feels like there is some correlation here to the Anime / Manga industry, creating VR avatars and drawing manga characters aren't that far apart. Japan has always had a large pool of aspiring Anime and Manga artists, and this would be a pretty solid side hustle.

legacynl• 7 months ago

what the hell is a 'VRChat creator'? They make VR chats?

Analemma_• 7 months ago

You can commission people to make custom avatars for you if you don't know how to make one yourself. This is a fairly complex process, at least if you want a nice one that has full rigging and mocap support using external cameras and body tracking. I met someone at a party who does this as a side gig and brings in about $15K/year from it.

nomel• 7 months ago

They can also include animations, emotes, outfits, etc.

There are some artistically impressive avatars out there.

numpad04• 7 months ago

People that make 3D models and sell them on Etsy style websites for ~$50 each. Others then gather and buy them. It require basic skills in Unity to use them.

tbhimo, this is beyond bad omen to VRC and VR at large from profitability angle. To me it looks the exact path that Twitter went down.

t-writescode3• 7 months ago

What is a bad omen and why? That most of the creators are Japanese? Why?

t-writescode3• 7 months ago

Custom avatars and worlds.

Avatar creation requires a strong understanding of 3d modeling tools and some level of shader coding in many cases.

World creation is also 3d modeling, plus scripting to generate games, doors, etc, if the world has interactivity.

It’s quite lucrative if you’re good at it.

Jhsto• 7 months ago

On a related note, does anyone have references which would explain VRChat (and the culture around it)? I'm not quite certain if the models are primarily used for comedic effect, role-play, or more of as a 'Ready Player One'-esque alternative identity. I think I know cases for the latter, but I feel like as someone who has never understood VR as a form of self-expression or played VRChat, I feel like I can't have the conversation with them.

cagenut• 7 months ago

People Make Games did a mini documentary on almost exactly what you're asking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PHT-zBxKQQ

Its three years old so things have slightly matured.

jauntywundrkind• 7 months ago

I find the vtuber effect pretty offputting myself. It's so flat.

It's going to wander into entirely different problems (one with a much more uncanny valley), but i'm curious to see how the field develops when facial animation systems start being able to parallel people's faces more.

cosmic_cheese7• 7 months ago

VTuber avatar expressiveness varies wildly depending on the software and avatar artists in question. With the right software and top tier avatars, it can be quite good, but high quality avatars are extremely time consuming to create and thus expensive so only the biggest streamers tend to have those. Some agencies also force usage of less advanced agency-proprietary software to prevent talent from using the avatars without authorization.

unsignedint2• 7 months ago

I provide full livecast coverage by visiting every booth at Vket, which takes place in VRChat twice a year, and over time I’ve noticed some clear patterns.

In Japan, the market for 3D models and other VR/metaverse assets has steadily flourished. Within VRChat, it’s fairly common for users to purchase avatars from platforms like booth.pm and then customize them to their liking—sometimes as simply as changing colors, and other times by adding clothing, accessories, or other elements. The market itself is quite approachable: some avatars are used by thousands, or even tens of thousands, of people, while others cater to much more niche tastes. Either way, there’s something for almost everyone.

Originally, the focus was largely on avatars themselves. Over the years, however, we’ve seen a noticeable shift toward clothing and accessories. Looking at booths in recent Vket events, roughly 40%—if not close to half—of the offerings now fall into those categories. Tools such as ModularAvatar and Mochifitter have made applying and adjusting these items easier than ever, lowering the barrier even further. More broadly, many Japanese users don’t seem to find working with Unity particularly daunting, and that comfort level has helped form the foundation of the ecosystem we see today.

While comedy and roleplay certainly appear from time to time, many people treat their avatars as genuine representations of their identity. This doesn’t mean that identity is fixed—some users switch between multiple avatars—but there is often a strong sense of attachment. The avatar functions not merely as a surrogate in a virtual space, but as something that defines how they present themselves within that world.

This emphasis on originality, combined with a general avoidance of ripped game assets or avatars based on existing IPs (at least compared to trends outside Japan), appears to have played a significant role in shaping this distinctive Japanese VR culture.

bottlepalm2• 7 months ago

It's the next level of social gaming, being in VR makes the experience a lot more immersive and visceral.

cosmic_cheese7• 7 months ago

My impression is that across the board, Japan (and to a similar extent, other East Asian and some Southeast Asian countries) have outsized presence in online creative spaces.

Part of that comes down to sheer numbers, but I feel there’s cultural differences that go into it too. Having lived in Japan I found that relative to the US, the average person is more likely to be decent at drawing/doodling or have interest in other forms of art.

I don’t have any special insight to why that’s true (if my experience is representative of reality — n=1 and all), but my hunch is that it might come down to an overall less self-defeating and more supportive attitude towards self-expression through art… in the US it’s common for people to completely dismiss the possibility that they could ever create anything of value, citing things like lack of talent. There’s also a consistent undercurrent of a disparaging attitude towards artists which also doesn’t help.

With those cultural differences, it’s easy to see why one group could end up with a higher percentage of creators than the other.

bongodongobob• 7 months ago

Government initiatives and subsidies. Big push to export culture post WW2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Japan#:~:text=Cool%20Japa...

fidotron• 7 months ago

My experience is in the US they are no less talented, there is just a much wider abandonment of doing anything which isn't going to generate money, along with being disparaging towards anyone that does pursue things as an amateur.

i.e. being a "sports fan" is more socially acceptable than being someone that actually plays a sport enthusiastically but not at a high level.

cosmic_cheese7• 7 months ago

Yeah, I didn't word it well but part of that is exactly what I was getting at in my post. In the US there's a weird crab-bucket mentality thing going on where we shoot ourselves and each other down when making an attempt to skill up. Maybe worse, if you ignore that and skill up anyway those same people will take it as a personal insult and act like you're trying to be "better" than them. "You're one of us, stay where you belong." It's a truly bizarre dynamic.

The money part is real too, though. It gets baked in early. I've had to try to shut out that nagging voice in the back of my head myself.

lanfeust6• 7 months ago

I think this is in part projection of insecurity by low/middle classes, because rec sports are definitely a social status signal for upper classes. It's also "socially acceptable" to waste hours of time watching TV instead of hustling. Another data point as a counter is the popularity of video games. The only people saying they should just be for kids are aging boomers (in general)

I do agree though that there is a stronger social pressure to be enterprising. For young Americans I think the obsession is social media or youtube

unsignedint2• 7 months ago

I think part of it is that, in the US (and probably in many other countries too), the roles of maker and consumer tend to be more clearly separated. In contrast, among Japanese users, that line feels much more blurred.

One thing I’ve noticed is that there are a lot of “avatar worlds” where people just go in and pick premade avatars, but these are almost nonexistent—or at least not widely used—by Japanese audiences. The main exception seems to be worlds specifically designed for trying on sample avatars, rather than adopting them as-is.

dotnet002• 7 months ago

I think there is a genuine difference in the respect/appreciation for the arts between the two countries. Americans seem far more proud of their ignorance of the arts and in their lack of respect for artists.

I wonder if it might also be related to Japan's stronger laws against slander/libel and lack of fair use. I've seen many cases of harassed Japanese creators being able to drag their abusers into court in ways that seem very alien here

wkat4242• 7 months ago

Agreed, I make a lot of stuff in my free time (cosplay related) and a lot of my older friends from Holland really frown on that saying it's "immature" and "I should do something more important with my time like doing a work course instead of playing dress up" :( The same with my projects at the makerspace, several people have asked me "why do you bother if you're not selling anything". People are so focused on money it's ridiculous. I just love the experience of dreaming something up and seeing it materialize. It gives me agency.

At least most of my more recent friends love it. But it's a bit off-putting.

A lot of my older friends don't think watching mediocre streaming shows or football is a waste of time though, no, that's "enjoying the fruits of hard work". Whatever.

deadbabe• 7 months ago

Personal individuality in Japan is so repressed, people have no choice but to express themselves through art or online creative spaces.

In the US, there are more ways to express yourself, so art becomes less of an obvious outlet.

cosmic_cheese7• 7 months ago

Maybe in the countryside and smaller towns, but in Tokyo at least people express themselves through fashion and style quite unabashedly, especially in the parts with the largest populations of younger people.

bottlepalm2• 7 months ago

With full health coverage, people in Japan can pursue simpler jobs and get by, with more free time for artistic endeavors.

marcus_holmes• 7 months ago

Most other countries have full health coverage, it's really just the USA that has such a broken health system.

That doesn't mean we do more art. I am considered unusual because I sketch, badly. I think it's this "why would you do something you're bad at?" attitude in our western culture that kills it for us.

bsder• 7 months ago

And, yet, a Japanese mangaka living in squalid poverty with shitty health is practically a stereotypical meme.

nialv7• 7 months ago

well japan has comiket. unlike the Western equivalents like Comicon, etc. which has been mostly captured by corporates as a channel of advertisement, comiket remained a grassroots market, where ordinary, individual artists can get a booth to sale whatever creative work they have produced. this is almost unimaginable in the West.

surely that has an enormous impact on the vitality of the creator community.

_lvbh• 7 months ago

London's MCM had a lot of original artists this year. Surprisingly not too corporate captures.

bitwize• 7 months ago

If you walk into a computer/electronics store in Japan you're likely to see a bunch of Wacom (Japanese brand) gear out on display, and if you see that there'll be Photoshop open with the image of some anime girl that a previous shopper had drawn on the tablet.

I think you might be right. The Japanese seem to have a different attitude toward competence. It's just more expected that you get good at doing something. Cruise the bars of Japan and you're going to find a lot of girls who are pretty but not particularly intelligent, just like anywhere else in the world. But some of these approached me and tried to get me to give them English lessons. They wanted to learn English. I've been giggled at by the same kind of woman in the USA for even knowing more than one language.

_DeadFred_• 7 months ago

I think you just don't see peoples' artistic side in the USA. People were always shocked if they happened to see my home music studio setup (which I tried hard to make sure they don't because then they want to hear my music, then we have to both do a social politeness dance when they hate it).

It's not ok/safe to share in the USA unless you are amazingly talented and conform to generic norms.

Maybe artists in Japan are more conformist so it's more safe to share, maybe they don't have to mirror popular standards so it's more safe to share.

It's also impossible to make it as an artist in the USA because of health costs. I could hardly justify jumping to working for myself and I had six figures of work a year lined up because insurance went up so much and coverage at the higher rate was way way worse. It really requires parents/spouse boot strap your career.

redwall_hp• 7 months ago

"Share music but remain anonymous" is much more typical in Japan, I think. The whole Vocaloid music scene revolves around people using a handle and uploading videos. I can't think of many communities in the west that work that way, aside from maybe small EDM artists.

It's more common to know someone's name if they break out into more mainstream music, such as Kenshi Yonezu (he's done music for Ghibli, My Hero Academia and Square Enix...but some of his most famous work is under the name Hachi). There have been many others who have had that trajectory. Ayase (half of YOASOBI), Reol, Giga and Ryo (Supercell) come to mind.

I think there's also just more of a societal emphasis on craftsmanship and honing skill as its own end. The US has been smoking the capitalist crack pipe for so long everything is either about consuming or producing something of value for others to consume.

underlipton3• 7 months ago

Take with a grain of salt, as it's been quite a while since I've been to Japan, and I've never been able to make it to a (non-VR) convention. But, IIUC:

There's certainly more respect (and legal backing) for privacy in Japan, which makes things like producing uncommon, off-color, or even transgressive art less risky. People can't just take pictures of you in public and post them online. You're not expected to become an artistic personality, either. Your art (and perhaps a pseudonymous personality) can stand on its own, even when you make public appearances at physical markets, without any of it leaking out into your non-subculture life.

You're also not expected to turn the effort into a massive commercial effort. Some doujinshi are only produced in tiny runs that are meant to be distributed to friends, and maybe a handful of interested customers. That means that the production standards are more forgiving, the investment is smaller, and the barriers to trying again if a particular effort doesn't go so well are lower.

underlipton3• 7 months ago

Not surprised. 90% of Western VRChat users are furries *and weebs, and 90% of them just want to party. IIRC, a lot of the builders went to NeosVR and Resonite, particularly after the anti-cheat debacle.

V-ket is one of the largest virtual conventions on the platform, hosted out of - wait for it - Japan. (The winter edition is currently on-going, if anyone wants to check it out.)

andybak• 7 months ago

I'm one of the maintainers of Open Brush (open-source continuation of Google's Tilt Brush) and a huge chunk of our community is in Japan as well as other East Asian countries. The language barrier is really frustrating as I'd love to engage with them more - respond to bug reports, feature requests etc).

(Open Brush can be used to create content for platforms such as VR Chat as well as being a way to create explorable spaces and artworks in it's own right)

arjie• 7 months ago

Unsurprising. They have adopted these personas into the mainstream more than anyone else. Many of these personas also have visual characteristics typical of anime/manga. Anyway, I found it interesting that it's so mainstream that they have a minister in their government who claims to be attracted only to these fictional characters: https://x.com/onoda_kimi/status/1600805415909933056

「早く結婚を」「子供を産め」 20代の頃から有権者に言われ続けてきたけど40になってもまだこの言葉をぶつけられる事にため息出ますわ。何歳になったら言われずに済むようになるのか。
3次元では国と結婚してるし、そもそもプライベートは２次専だって言ってるでしょ！！何度でも言うぞ２次専なの！！

Translated by ChatGPT to be

“‘Hurry up and get married,’ ‘Have children’— I’ve been told these things by voters ever since my twenties, and even now that I’m 40, I still get these words thrown at me. It just makes me sigh. At what age will people finally stop saying this to me?
In the 3D world, I’m married to the state, and besides, I’ve said that my private life is strictly 2D-only, right!! I’ll say it as many times as it takes—I’m 2D-only!!”

m4rtink• 7 months ago

"married to the state" - now that's the spirit! :)

haolez• 7 months ago

Never heard of it. Sounds cool. Is it useful for virtual office setups? With virtual screen sharing, etc.

throw3e98• 7 months ago

No, it's like a nightclub, except full of anime characters and furries and other wacky avatars. Look it up on youtube.

t-writescode3• 7 months ago

Or minigolf, board games, etc with your friends across the world in about the closest approximation we have of physical in-same-room interaction over the internet.

VRChat: “There are more Japanese creators than all other countries combined”

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