Ask HN: What did the really successful programmers do differently?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4626201

by BadassFractal • 14 years ago

219 168 14 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

This is a follow-up to the lengthy "Do you want to be doing this at 50" discussion that we've been having here on HN for the past week. For those of you who might have missed it:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4611337 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4620276 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4616635

As someone who is definitely on the path to be developing software for the rest of his life, I'm somewhat concerned. There are many anecdotes of programmers in their 50s having a pretty bad time, and yet there are real examples out there of programmers who have done phenomenally well: they've made a difference, they're well known and respected AND they've been financially successful as well.

I'm thinking of (contemporary) programmers of the caliber of John Carmack, Rich Hickey, Peter Norvig, Jeff Dean.. I'm trying to understand what it is that they did differently from everybody else that set them apart. I understand that many have been successful through their ventures (see Bill Joy or Eric Schmidt), is that perhaps the only route?

I think this is an interesting and valuable discussion for every developer out there.

patothon2• 14 years ago

- Highly Driven - Highly focus

JDW2• 14 years ago

Yes, to say the least... I do not know what paved the way for all aforementioned programmers put after reading about Carmacks work in "Masters of Doom" I'd say focus is extremely important... And at least myself is extremely bad at it - there is always 10-ich projects going on... If you want success today I think being extremely specialized is a must.

patothon2• 14 years ago

It's not only about specializing yourself.

It's about knowing where you want to go, what you want to achieve, and be able to focus enough to go there. Vision + Execution.

For me focus is at the same time "fast and slow".

You have the focus on the long term vision of your career, products etc. That means, yeah, probably choose between your 10 projects. But again, it depends the goal you set yourself concerning those 10 projects. If you're a pragmatic OSS commiter ("I commit the changes to this lib' I really need for my main product"), then 10 projects is okay.

Then You have to focus, during your day to day work. Where do I head with this feature? What do I want to achieve? What problem am I trying to solve here? Did I think about all the edgy cases? Did I test everything? Is the code better now than before? etc.

It's hard work.

Be Driven, Be focus.

notum• 14 years ago

My guess is that they didn't waste energy by paying too much attention to blogging coder's rants.

benologist2• 14 years ago

They got lucky - they picked the right career and made the right choice enough times to still enjoy what they do decades later.

bornhuetter4• 14 years ago

This is partly true, but mostly unhelpful.

benologist2• 14 years ago

Sure, but it's a generally unhelpful question I think. Most people aren't going to stay passionate about the same job, career, wife, husband, problems, solutions, whatever, for 50 years.

There is nothing you can do that will make you remain interested and excited and passionate about something for decades.

lutusp6• 14 years ago

> I'm trying to understand what exactly they did from everybody else that set them apart.

Because I'm one of the success stories, I'm in a position to answer. A successful programmer is not just a programmer, he is also a personal representative, a salesman and a contract negotiator.

I originally wrote what became Apple Writer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Writer) because I was writing a technical magazine article that was difficult to organize. I finally realized I could use my newly acquired Apple II to organize my disorganized notes and help in editing. So I divided my time between writing the article (about Special Relativity) and programming my Apple II to help with the writing task. This meant I was the first user of my program, and I was a demanding customer, a factor that helped the project along.

Eventually Apple heard about my program (originally called LexiCalc, a name meant to remind people of VisiCalc) and, having far too few programs for their computer, asked to see my program. After a lengthy negotiation in which I demanded and secured a 25% royalty rate, we had a deal.

The bottom line -- Apple Writer didn't become a success only because of my programming skills. It became a success and a household name because I was able to negotiate a royalty marketing deal with Apple that served both our needs. The fact that a 25% royalty rate was excessive, was unknown to either me or Apple at the time of the original negotiation, and by the time we both realized it, I was unwilling to change the terms.

To reiterate, programmers that become successful do it by having skills beyond programming -- they know how to present themselves, they know how to negotiate, and they earn a reputation for reliability.

bornhuetter4• 14 years ago

I think this is a common theme - technical people who also have business skills are more likely to succeed; business people who have technical skills are similarly more likely to succeed.

lutusp6• 14 years ago

> business people who have technical skills are similarly more likely to succeed.

Yes, and business people and managers who have technical skill and knowledge possess the advantage that they can detect when programmers are lying to them or exaggerating, and they can schedule realistic programming project times. Nothing is worse than a manager in charge of programming projects who doesn't understand programming.

jd• 14 years ago

Or more generally: it's much easier to excel in the intersection of two (or three) disciplines than to excel in a single discipline.

Programming + Biology. Programming + Economics. Business + Comic book writing. Programming + Business. Cooking + fluency in Japanese & English. You get the idea.

matwood• 14 years ago

I think this is a common theme - technical people who also have business skills are more likely to succeed; business people who have technical skills are similarly more likely to succeed.

Exactly. I was fortunate enough to realize this early on in college. Since that realization I've always made the effort to straddle the tech and business side. Programmers, even average ones, have the ability to multiply business effort by orders of magnitude. Look around in any business and even today it's easy to find places were software can help.

rushabh• 14 years ago

> To reiterate, programmers that become successful do it by having skills beyond programming -- they know how to present themselves, they know how to negotiate, and they earn a reputation for reliability.

Apart from those, being able to build the right app at the right time helps too.

davidw• 14 years ago

Very interesting, and thank you for sharing!

I think one could make several distinctions about "being successful" though:

* You're good at it, and you're still employed at 50.

* You strike it rich, so you can do whatever you want at 50.

From what you write here, you're in the second category. Given the odds of striking it rich though, I hope people post about type #1 programmers too.

manmal3• 14 years ago

Programmers in the first category should still be able to get a job if they can communicate their skill. Listing both old and new stuff (punch cards, Cobol, C systems programming, Java, Ruby, Python) always commands respect from me for a seasoned programmer. If they contribute to a current open-source project or have some free app on, it should be a no-brainer.

franchie• 14 years ago

Yes, A perfect programmer is the one who can put himself at the end user level to demand features and the hero to deliver it on the other hand

nubela• 14 years ago

Curiously, what do you do today?

lutusp6• 14 years ago

I still write software (free) and articles -- my most recent:

http://arachnoid.com/MySQL

http://arachnoid.com/python/DBClient

And in the summertime I travel around by boat in Alaska:

http://arachnoid.com/alaska2012

noobplusplus• 14 years ago

One thing that I would like to point out is, being financially successful and extremely competent programmer are two different things. An example Zed Shaw is an extremely good programmer, but if you read his legendary rant "rails is ghetto" you come to know besides being an extremely great programmer he had to struggle financially.

So being a good programmer is not synonymous to having your bank accounts with decent zeroes following some non zero number.

Incidentally, yesterday I was talking to a programmer who had been coding for 17 years, he codes bots for games in C++ when not coding other stuff. He did not take his degree seriously, and today is looking for an MNC to hire him, so that he gets married, for the chic wants a secure life.

What did the good programmers do differently? Its a difficult question to answer. Having said that, couple of things are:

1. starting early

2. getting lucky

3. focus and hardwork

4. marketed themselves properly

5. surrounded themselves with better programmers, to get better at it.

6. capitalized on the opportunity of solving a tough and challenging problem.

ending on a pragmatic quote: passion burns out, what sustains is greed. (taken from "Do you want to be doing this at 50")

JDW2• 14 years ago

"Starting early", super important! "Getting lucky", yes - both in time and in income - striking gold is not much worth if you can not step up on the possibility - and sadly, for many, having kids or a ill parent, or loosing a steady income is to big a obstacle to tacle... Meaning, you might not have that many a year to live that, wild, frivolous, entreprenourish life...

dasil003• 14 years ago

Great post. I think there's a huge selection bias when someone drops the kind of names the OA did. All those guys had hugely visible successes, but it's hard to know how replicable any of that is. Given equal skill to Carmack or Hickey, I don't see a brilliant guy having a reasonable chance at writing the next Quake or Clojure. Those successes are black swans.

There are a lot of guys making $250k or more working on some obscure B2B product or enterprise team somewhere. Just because we don't hear about them doesn't mean they aren't just as happy or find as much meaning in their work, and it's certainly a lot easier to optimize for if that's what you want.

That said, I think programming is a bit like a professional athlete in that you can't have a great lifelong career by sticking purely to the technical aspects. You need to be learning how your skills apply to real businesses and building your network. Fortunately I think these things happen naturally to some extent, but it can't hurt to think about them.

mamcx2• 14 years ago

> being financially successful and extremely competent programmer are two different things

I'm going far than this and say are two OPPOSITE things. Being good a 1 thing is hard. Good at 2 things? 3 things? Rare. That is way is easy to have Teslas, but not Bells...

I know a lot of developers in the latin america community, and mi city (www.clubdelphi.com). Here, is VERY rare to find the super-rich, mega-startup anomaly (yes, it is). We can do the hard work, have competent skills and still survive. I don't see highly tech people being good at the art of make money (the lack of social skills hurt a lot!), and the time necessary to code + doing business is a big drag.

I have a partner that help in the sales side. Without him, I can't see how I can code and get client in a steady way (the economic realities here are differente to USA: Have FACE TO FACE is DAMM IMPORTANT!, internet-only business? close to impossible), and I'm lucky for that. A lot of my peers are code monkeys, even the good ones...

roh26it• 14 years ago

I think great programmers are very much like other great people. To quote a cliche.. they stay hungry and foolish.

lhnz• 14 years ago

Many of those people have very individual approaches to development and are in a sense making massive contributions to the industry.

I'm not sure if you've heard about the concepts of Structure and Agency [0] in sociology? Consider the importance of: (1) being able to go off the beaten path to chase a new way of thinking/working or an idea which can improve many other people's lives, and (2) being in a company or position which gives an increase in high-value opportunities.

In any case, forget about just being a standard developer if you want to reach this level of impact. You own neither the platform on which you can reach a large group of people; nor the intellectual skill, anti-authoritarian outlook or vision required to create at a standard that sets you apart from your peers. There is something qualitatively different here from the careers of normal developers.

By the way, the ease of defining these qualities actually means it's not so hard to go about reaching them. If you can engineer software, you can engineer your career.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_and_agency

kamaal• 14 years ago

I am not talking about Linus Torvalds, Larry Walls etc of the world. But I am going to talk about other developers who often make it big. I am talking of people who solve difficult problems, add value and make money.

Great folks I've met are high on productivity, they are quick in discovering things and generally maintain an aura of self confidence around them. Many of them start off because they a 'lucky break' somewhere but they build on it, they work hard and make their own space.

When we are talking of successful guys out there. We are ideally talking of guys who are >40 now. I know a relative of mine highly successful 40+ guy. Some of the things that I've noticed is, he is insanely hardworking, nearing 50 he can give any 20 year old run for his money. He is productive, doesn't blog much, not very active on social media. Doesn't go gaga on small wins, he has great focus on picking and solving tough problems. I mean problems that can add real great value.

A few things that I've noticed is he is agnostic to tool religion. He goes by what helps him, rather than our usual religious tool affiliations. He is also very well organized.

So to add it up:

1. Work really hard, I mean I literally. No excuses on this point.

2. Focus on solving tough problems, adding value and things that matter. Learn and master things that can help you solve problems. But there is no such a thing called 'permanent' technology. You have to learn to move on, because tools help you solve the problems. They are not your problems you would want to solve. Unless selling tools is your business.

3. Technology matters, but that is only a enabler.

4. Be a little disciplined and organized.

5. Celebrate big wins, write and talk about them. Network with people just like you and surround yourself with smart people.

6. Work hard on opportunities and always keep a tab on your next move. The more opportunities you convert to finished work the more you get next.

lutusp6• 14 years ago

> When we are talking of successful guys out there. We are ideally talking of guys who are >40 now. I know a relative of mine highly successful 40+ guy.

I like your post and this isn't meant as criticism, but ... could we not say "guy" so much? Women are often terrific programmers, and there should be more of them. But that goal is thwarted by a certain common assumption about who programmers are.

noibl• 14 years ago

I don't post this with any sarcasm or to draw any inferences about your intended meaning, but just to bring to your attention that the point you've now raised struck me independently upon reading:

> A successful programmer is not just a programmer, he is also a personal representative, a salesman and a contract negotiator.

Morven• 14 years ago

> 3. Technology matters, but that is only a enabler.

Yes! Just do things with the right tools.

pndsimpson• 14 years ago

I'd like to place myself in this category, even though I'm only 34. My claim to being successful is that I make much more money than I can spend (though we're not talking millions here) doing things I enjoy doing. I largely agree with you, but have some comments:

1. I think my best quality is that I'm lazy. Extremely lazy. Yet still very productive. I achieve this by thinking more about problems before I do anything, which usually greatly reduces the amount of work I actually have to do, because I come up with a better way of doing it. I'm extremely serious here; on a normal working day I'll likely spend more than 50% slacking. My clients don't care, they get charged only for the effective hours. And I love it, because the effective hours become so much more productive that I can charge a lot for them.

4. This matters a lot, especially in communicating to other stakeholders. Nothing is more annoying than someone who promises to do something by date X, only to not hear anything by then.

6. Extremely true. I talk to a lot of people to find work, and generally have a ratio of 10:1 for possible opportunities to things that actually lead to real work. I don't think I can improve this ratio much, because really interesting work is not that readily available.

I'm also not very active in the blogosphere and social media, mostly because that's simply not where my work comes from. My work comes mostly from business people and they care much more about recommendations, being able to talk to them in language they understand, etc.

ColinWright• 14 years ago

Read Richard Hamming's "You and your research", quoted on full on PG's own site, and I've submitted it here for a separate and new discussion:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4626349

rsaarelm• 14 years ago

Another question: How much luck was involved beyond making the necessary good choices? You can look at John Carmack or Peter Norvig and say that they made good choices X and Y and so on, but how much will this tell you about the prospects of a programmer who hasn't hit it big yet and who is doing all of X and Y? Worst case is, even though everyone who makes it to the top needs to have some qualities, successfully cultivating the qualities might still just get you from a 0 % chance to a 1 % chance at ending up successful.

I'm sure it's far from being that bad for programming, particularly if your main goal is to not end up miserable. Still, for every one John Carmack, I'm sure there are a 100 or a 1000 people as skilled and as hardworking, but who don't have the same amount of recognition.

They might have rather cushy jobs at some obscure R&D lab though. Which suggests a third question: What kind of people without widespread name recognition should we also be asking the "what did they do right" question about? It's easier to start thinking about John Carmack instead of Joe Q. Senior Systems Development Fellow, but that primes you for the somewhat wrong goal of trying to get massive name recognition in addition to the not ending up a miserable programmer one.

manmal3• 14 years ago

I like to think that successful people of all professions owe it to their methods (and then there is pure "luck" too). E.g., Seinfeld has been known to improve his skills on a daily basis, and is still able to deliver highly successful products (e.g., he wrote "Bee Movie", a surprise hit movie). Might be that his daily improvement has nothing to do with it, but you can never make much of anecdotes anyway. There is an app for that which I like to use: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/commit/id473527073?mt=8

Einstein said something like "I owe many of my achievements to my persistence, not letting go of my goal until I achieve it" (Nash proved later that keeping to a strategy [= persistence] increases chances of winning a game), and Feynman has been known as a big advocate of the scientific method per se. Again, hard to say whether they owe their Nobel prizes to these methods, but I like to think that they helped.

Methods are actions gone habits. If you force yourself to think "Is this really right?" before coming to a conclusion, you will soon do it automatically. As a programmer, you could build up the habit of understanding the system you are currently operating in, before fixing or enhancing a part of it. Or you could write a pseudo-code script using your API (or testcases ;)) before implementing it, to get a grasp of what your users will actually use it for. You can make it a habit to blank out program areas in your mind which you don't currently need, to reduce cognitive load and turn a greater focus on the problem at hand (which will also enforce modularization automatically).

There are many such methods (also including getting more focus out of your worktime etc.), and they can become habits if you execute them for long enough. Habits are everywhere, and the (IMO) most crucial ones are hidden in how we think, and our thoughts eventually ensue our actions.

agentultra• 14 years ago

Practice is a good habit. I like to warm up in the mornings with a code-kata problem before I start my day. Just take a trivial problem and write a program to solve it. Take the same problem on another day and solve it a different way. Contrast the results of the two approaches. Think about which approach felt more natural, which one was most efficient, in what real-world cases would you choose one approach over the other... in other words, reflect. Practice without reflection is meaningless repetition.

michaelochurch2• 14 years ago

I think that a big part of it is the quality of work you get. If you work on business apps that aren't very well appreciated and most of your time is spent maintaining projects where the decisions were already made, you're never going to get to that level. A couple scut projects early in your career can teach you things about maintenance and just why code quality is so important, but eventually, you need to graduate beyond that sort of thing and move to projects where you can learn from your own decisions.

Working with software is like poker. If you aren't playing with real money, it gets boring quickly. Programming is fun if you have "skin in the game"-- a decision where you want to see if it was the right one, a problem you want to solve-- and it's mind-numbingly boring if not.

You need, somehow, to ensure a reliable stream of high-quality work. You need to become that guy who moves from machine learning to self-driving cars to new language development while the unlucky saps are trying to swing from an HR app led by a Manager II to an HR app led by Manager III.

I don't want to trivialize this, because getting high-quality work is really fucking hard. There just isn't much of a budget for it, and usually getting the best work involves manipulating the politics, especially when you're young and not "obviously" qualified for it yet. Good work tends to be R&D stuff where up-or-out business people who will be promoted or gone in 4 years can't see the payoff. You often have to take a mercenary attitude toward transfers and job changes and, if your boss isn't personally interested in your career growth, balance out the universe by stealing an education. Most people learned how to program by doing something other than what they were supposed to do. This doesn't change when you become a professional programmer. Good programmers tend to put their own development over business goals-- "optimizing for learning"-- because otherwise, they wouldn't have become any good.

People talk about "5:01 developers", but I've started to think of myself as a "1/21 developer". I expect to grow the value of my programming skill set (and indirectly, my earning potential) by 1% every 21 days. It doesn't have to be coding only. Improving social skills or business knowledge can easily account for such an improvement. I make that rate of growth (more as metaphor and guideline than hard lower bound, because it's impossible to measure such a quantity precisely) an almost inflexible primary constraint, as important as (a) getting done what I'm told to do, (b) showing up on time, and (c) not being offensive at work. None of these get slack except in extreme circumstances, so why should my learning rate?

1 percent every 21 days might not seem like much-- it's incremental change as opposed to get-rich-quick bullshit-- but that's a doubling every 4 years, or a factor of 32 in two decades.

What I think is getting much harder is consistently putting yourself forward as a person who deserves the best projects. As the number of frameworks and languages increases, we're getting curse-of-dimensionality problems. Being seen as a good programmer (which is increasingly different from being one) is an artifact of terrain knowledge, these days, more than general competence. This makes political battles around tooling a lot nastier, because the stakes are so high.

I think the way out is, for now, to establish a credibility in something other than engineering-- statistics, business, design. Hence the X-Who-Programs vs. Just-A-Programmer phenomenon: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/08/26/xwp-vs-jap/ . If you're a software engineer and nothing else, your place in the pecking order is unsafe because of tool-sensitivity, so you need to diversify into other areas of knowledge.

manmal3• 14 years ago

How do you quantify the 1% per 21 days improvment? There are no easy-to-get-at brain weight scales yet. I agree with your incremental change mindset, I just find it hard to measure.

An addition to your proposition that you needs make your decisions in order to improve: You also need to actively learn from your failures. Many people just go like "That sucks, it did not work out" without ever asking the Why. That's not enough to learn, and one could even learn the wrong lesson from a failure.

michaelochurch2• 14 years ago

How do you quantify the 1% per 21 days improvment? There are no easy-to-get-at brain weight scales yet. I agree with your incremental change mindset, I just find it hard to measure.

Agreed. 21 days is a good audit point. If you can make the case to yourself that you've improved the total value of your skill set by 1 percent, then proceed normally.

This is equivalent to 19% per year. That's measurable if you pay attention to market trends. Keep in mind that if you stick with one job, you're likely to bank only half of that increment. You probably won't get 20% pay increases unless you work for yourself (in which case your expectancy might go up by 20%, but you have a lot of volatility). You'll get 6 to 10 percent per year. It might still be worth it to stay in the same job, if you feel like you're learning a lot. Part of the reason why the pay improvement is slower is that the best engineers tend to prefer more interesting work (and stability, as they get older) over aggressive salary growth.

Here's a scale for software engineering: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/the-trajector... . Each 0.1 increment seems to be about a 26% increase in abstract business value (or a 10-fold increase per 1.0) and about an 8-15% increase in salary. You should be aiming for 0.1 every 18 months, which is hard but doable, although it usually requires pushing back at work sometimes.

Absolutely. No disagreement there.

lerouxb• 14 years ago

There are no really successful programmers. In a general sense: There are no really successful wage-earners. The only really successful people are business-people. That applies to just about every industry. No one is going to give you a billion dollars (or even a million) to sit at home or in an office and write code. No matter how beautiful and optimised and whatever other qualities you think code should have.

Unless you want to define "really successful" as really good (which is subjective) or popular and then the answer is obviously to be really good and make something popular. Oh and try to make sure to get the timing right. ;)

Evbn4• 14 years ago

Jeff Dean?

patio112• 14 years ago

Break down what "success" means for you, then figure out how to achieve the really important parts of that formula.

For example, my cursory read of your list of programming success stories plus "they've made a difference, they're well known and respected" suggests that you might care about your status among geeks in particular. There's nothing wrong with that, but it would counsel very different career moves than if you cared about your status among "the typical person who reads the New York Times." You might, for example, aim your moves towards a high-status industry that skews geeky (like, say, videogames, which is across almost any other axis a terrible place to work), startups, advertising firms which employ anomalously high number of PhDs and get disproportionate love from geeks, etc etc, and away from where many extraordinarily talented programmers are likely to work (in a dark hole writing important code that the world will never know or care about even though it keeps their planes in the sky, moves their food to their table, makes sure that when they call 911 a phone actually rings, etc).

In terms of being financially successful? There are many, many approaches to it. Most of them boil down to figuring out how programming solves a problem for a business, quantifying that value, and then shaking the money tree.

I think HNers sometimes have an unnecessarily narrow view of the solution set: for values of financially successful which include "I don't need to be a billionaire but I'd sort of like to earn, I dunno, doctor money rather than marketing manager money" it includes things like "Run a small boutique consulting firm", "Become an individual specialist in a few very valuable things and just charge market rates for them", "Use your programming expertise to found a non-tech business and ROFLstomp on one core area of operations due to your unfair advantage", etc etc etc.

dschiptsov4• 14 years ago

Pardon me for asking, what are your programming achievements, besides writing a long-length comments and blog posts?) Where could we see your code?

statictype• 14 years ago

You're asking the wrong question. A better question would be "what have you achieved while being a programmer?".

Possible answer: Learning a skill that most programmers shy away from, are afraid of, or down-right scorn, thus giving me (him) an almost unfair advantage over virtually every other programmer out there.

patio112• 14 years ago

Turning strings into strings, quoth the Turing machine.

jasonkester• 14 years ago

You're showing your bias in that question. In the spectrum outlined in the post you're replying to, from valuing "really really good at writing code" to valuing "makes a ton of money as a result of applying a little bit of coding skill in the right direction", you appear to value the "good at coding" side of the equation.

If you read the comment you're replying to again, you might notice it to be written by somebody who lies towards the other end of the spectrum. As such, you might as well be asking him how much he bench presses, as it is equally relevant (as in, not at all so) to the utility of the advice he's giving.

olalonde2• 14 years ago

He lives from selling his own software... isn't that quite an achievement in itself? Unfortunately, his software isn't open source so I don't think we'll get a chance to take a peek.

tptacek4• 14 years ago

You just asked a non-sequitur question. Patrick said, "consider carefully what you mean by success; one measure is geek status ranking, another is financial success". You responded by saying "show me your code" --- in other words, by implying that there is only geek status ranking, which makes no sense as a response.

When you grok what Patrick is doing, the programming angle on it makes more sense. On HN, he's best known for Bingo Card Creator (that's the work he has the easiest time talking about). Here is the right way to think about Bingo Card Creator: it is an experiment in how much engineering effort you can apply to marketing as opposed to product features and what the payoff on that is. The engineering in BCC is invisible to users; the product itself is "hello world", hooked up to a random number generator. The result of the experiment: he matched his salary with it, and then left his full-time development job, because 5-10 hours a week of effort was paying him better than the 60 he spent as a salaryman.

Also: get past the idea that you can gauge people's skills from their Github profiles. Nerds are in love with that idea because it sure would be nice if it were true. I've been a professional developer, mostly in C, since I was ~17 years old. Only a tiny fraction of the lines of code I've written --- and virtually none of my favorite lines --- are publishable on a site like Github.

wglb• 14 years ago

A reading achievement would be to read his blog and understand the magnitude of what he has done.

dschiptsov4• 14 years ago

They think differently.

Take a look at Smalltalk at Xerox PARC, AI lab and Scheme language at MIT, Plan9 at Bell Labs, Erlang at Ericsson, Go at Google, FreeBSD and OpenBSD projects, etc.

For an individual achievements - Linux 0.9, viaweb, arc, clisp, nginx, redis, sqlite, git, vi, emacs, etc.

Each particular story could be enough for learning almost everything about software engineering.

Erlang is a story of applied principles, methodology and design decisions - real-world functional programming success.

Plan9 is an example of what system programming really are, that less is really more and good is really enough.) Take a lot at src/lib

Arc is a prove of concept that lies in foundation of the "On Lisp" book - that you could evolve a language together with your software in a bottom-up process. And he did.

The story of Scheme language you could read in MIT AI memos, where, actually you could find all you need to know about programming.

Go is an example of how ideas form Plan9 and language design comes together in a unique language with unique features.

The evolution of the Lisp is another example. Systems should evolve.

ak39• 14 years ago

There's a crucial difference between a good programmer and a successful one.

And the two aspects are certainly not mutually exclusive, and by that I mean: being a good programmer does not necessarily translate into being a successful programmer. The reverse is true too.

IMHO, to nurture a lasting career as a "programmer", you have to balance the two aspects. Be good and successful.

jmedwards• 14 years ago

I think they stop being programmers and become solution engineers. The programming changes with the times but the ability to design and implement elegant solutions to a given problem is a timeless (and rare in terms of 'really successful') skill.

Or, so I think.

That's also one of the reasons why I don't like the title 'programmer' as opposed to something like 'software engineer'.

edw5195• 14 years ago

How to be an Excellent Programmer for Many Years

(Excellent==Successful. Money & fame are more difficult to control.)

1. Choose a small subset of available technology, learn it intimately, and embrace it. Then evolve that subset.

2. Understand the pros and cons of various data structures, both in memory and on disk.

3. Understand the pros and cons of various algorithms.

4. Understand your domain. Get away from your computer and do what your users do.

5. Be ready, willing, & able to deep dive multiple levels at any time. You must know what's going on under the hood. There is a strong correlation between "number of levels of deepness understood" and "programming prowess".

6. Use your imagination. Always be asking, "Is there a better way?" Think outside the quadralateral. The best solution may be one that's never been taken.

7. Good programmer: I optimize code. Better programmer: I structure data. Best programmer: What's the difference?

8. Structure your data properly. Any shortcomings there will cause endless techincal debt in your code.

9. Name things properly. Use "Verb-Adjective-Noun" for routines and functions. Variables should be long enough, short enough, and meaningful. If another programmer cannot understand your code, you haven't made it clear enough. In most cases, coding for the next programmer is more important than coding for the environment.

10. Decouple analysis from programming. They are not the same thing, require different personal resources, and should be done at different times and places. If you do both at the same time, you do neither well. (I like to conduct analysis without technology at the end of the day and start the next morning programming.)

11. Never use early exits. Never deploy the same code twice. Never name a variable a subset of another variable. You may not understand these rules and you may even want to debate them. But once you start doing them, it will force you to properly structure your code. These things are all crutches whose use causes junior programmers to remain junior.

12. Learn how to benchmark. Amazing what else you'll learn.

13. Learn the difference between a detail (doesn't really make that much difference) and an issue (can end the world). Focus only on issues.

14. Engage your user/customer/managers. Help them identify their "what". Their "how" is not nearly as important.

15. Write a framework, whether you ever plan to use it or not. You'll learn things you'll never learn any other way.

16. Teach others what you know, either in person or in writing. You'll accidently end up teaching yourself, too.

17. Always tell your customer/user "yes", even if you're not sure. 90% of the time, you'll find a way to do it. 10% of the time, you'll go back and apologize. Small price to pay for major personal growth.

18. Find someone else's code that does amazing things but is unintelligible. Refactor it. Then throw it away and promise yourself to never make the same mistakes they made. (You'll find plenty.)

19. Data always > theory or opinions. Learn the data by building stuff.

20. At some point, run your own business (service or product). You will learn things about programming that you'll never learn as an employee.

21. If you don't love your job, find another one.

coliveira• 14 years ago

> 17. Always tell your customer/user "yes", even if you're not sure.

I have found that you get higher marks for saying NO in the right occasions than being known as the one that always says YES.

gns24• 14 years ago

There's clearly a middle position to be had here. By saying NO if you're not completely confident you can do something, you miss out on the best learning opportunities. That said, if you suspect something cannot work, or isn't the right way of doing something for another possibly non-technical reason, being prepared to say NO is critical for delivering.

So possibly: If you always say NO, you never learn anything. If you always say YES, you never deliver anything.

eranation3• 14 years ago

Learning to say no is the biggest challenge and virtue of the best developers out there. It's not a "no I can't do it" it's more of a "no I can't do it in that time" or "no I don't think it's the right way to go, here is how I think we should do it". Saying NO can make a difference between a successful project and a nightmare.

godbolev2• 14 years ago

Could you please elaborate on No. 11?

"Never use early exits". Could you please elaborate what you mean by that?

PS. I'm not trying to unintentionally start a flame war. Just trying to understand.

eranation3• 14 years ago

I'm glad you asked, I have the same question exactly.

pestaa• 14 years ago

I believe he referred to the rule to use a single return statement at the end of any single function definition.

edw5195• 14 years ago

Excellent question that is difficult to answer. I'll give you a short response here and then write a blog post with example code when I have time. Put your email in your profile and I'll make sure to let you know when that's ready.

A little background: I have gotten many calls when legacy code has a bug or needs a critical enhancement and no one in-house is willing or able to figure it out. I'm no smarter than anyone else, but because I'm stupid and fearless, I often do something that few others attempt: I rewrite or refactor the code first, then work on the bug/enhancement. And the first thing I always do is look for early exits. This has always given me the most bang for my buck in making unintelligible code understandable. The only entry to any function or subroutine should be on the first line and the only exit should be on the last line.

This is never about what runs fastest or produces less lines of code. It's strictly about making life easier for the next programmer.

Early exits can make things really easy (I'll just get out now.) 20 lines of clean code. No problem. Until years later, when that function is 300 lines long, and the next programmer can't figure out what you're doing. Much of the maintenance had been done in emergency mode, each programmer just trying to get in and out as fast as they could.

Early exits make it much easier for bad things to evolve:

  - 200 line multiple nested if statements
  - 200 line multiple nested recursions
  - unidentified but critical "modes" (add/change) (found/notFound)...

Removing early exits forces you to understand what really should be happening and enables you to structure code into smaller, more intelligible pieces.

Short, hand-wavy response, but I hope that helps clarify some. Stay tuned for a better answer...

pooriaazimi4• 14 years ago

I think the biggest problem is that early exits make you forget you have to clean things up before returning (a bigger problem in C and sometimes Java, than it is in modern dynamic languages). There are certainly other reasons, but I'll leave them to others that are more experienced!

eranation3• 14 years ago

This was a good resource: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_flow#Early_exit_from_lo...

njharman• 14 years ago

Indeed. I have found "guard clauses" with return/error at top of function to be clearer and less error prone.

dccoolgai• 14 years ago

Thoughtful, elaborate comments like this are why I read HN. Thanks, ed.

pooriaazimi4• 14 years ago

Great comment. But aren't 7 and 8 kinda at odds with each other? I understand that #7 is a bit hyperbole, but still...

edw5195• 14 years ago

The best programmer in #8 already did #7. So he never had to write a lot of code to handle poorly structured data. That's why he says, "What's the difference?"

xymostech• 14 years ago

I think that 7 and 8 are actually saying the same thing. #7 is saying that structuring your data correctly is optimization, and #8 is directly telling you to structure your data well.

ghc• 14 years ago

> 11. Never use early exits.

As a general piece of advice, this is flat out wrong. Or, to put it more correctly, this is only valid advice when using certain languages and only under certain conditions. Just because it is sound advice in languages with C/C++ derived syntax doesn't mean it should be presented as good advice in general.

albertzeyer2• 14 years ago

Why do you think it is bad for C? Take for example the Linux kernel where you find early exits basically everywhere. (See also my other response here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4626763)

Even less bad in C++ where destructors can automatically handle any cleanup (exactly that is also common practice in C++; making the cleanup implicit). Similarly in many other more high level languages with GC and/or automatic refcounting or so.

In rare cases, it might be more complicated, though.

But you seem to have some languages in mind where it really doesn't matter? What languages?

glassx2• 14 years ago

Exactly.

Also, for example, when you have lots of "if" clauses, those languages force us to use mutable state (and a variable initialized as null) just to avoid early exits. But we can avoid both by treating the "if" as an expression, as in Ruby, Lisp, etc, or with the ternary conditional operator...

Plus, IMO, there are some situations where early exits are a good idea even in languages derived from C, such as with guard clauses/preconditions.

There's a nice discussion about that here with some points I made: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SingleFunctionExitPoint

(EDIT: I edited a lot but still couldn't make it clear that I agree with you, but I still ended up making points about completely different things, sorry about that, my english skills are lacking sometimes)

SimHacker• 14 years ago

I understand why not to use early exits. But what's wrong with early returns?

nwmcsween• 14 years ago

Huh? You _want_ early exits in c code how else will the compiler optimize?

willismichael• 14 years ago

> 18. Find someone else's code that does amazing things but is unintelligible. Refactor it. Then throw it away

Throw away the unintelligible code, or throw away the refactor?

exDM69• 14 years ago

Always ignore advice that begins with the word "always". The use of "never" is never a good sign either.

Weaponx2007a2• 14 years ago

Wahh, I'm caught in a recursion. halp.

Dreddy• 14 years ago

Only Sith deal in absolutes!

stef_gxt• 14 years ago

I never say always

GoldenMonkey• 14 years ago

know when to break the rules

itmag• 14 years ago

I bet you could turn that into a profitable book. HyperInk?

cityhall• 14 years ago

> 13. Learn the difference between a detail (doesn't really make that much difference) and an issue (can end the world). Focus only on issues.

Good advice. So why do you give the same amount of attention to variable naming and early exits as to much higher level issues? I don't think the difference between Carmack and a random developer has much to do with adherence to coding standards.

edw5195• 14 years ago

Variable naming and early exits are not details. They are fundamental issues, two of the most common causes of shitty code. Most programmers don't understand how important they are and relegate them to the pile of "coding standards" or just want to debate their theroetical pros and cons. Just look at what's happened to this thread.

j45• 14 years ago

Great list Ed.

About #17, one of my clients once told me he hired and kept me because I never outright, or in the beginning said no, and instead said 'let me think about it', or 'anything is possible relative to time and money'.

As guides to implementing technology, I think this is a fundamental skill.

jamesrcole2• 14 years ago

19. Data always > theory or opinions. Learn the data by building stuff.

This is not true.

It depends on how much data you can get and how representative it is.

A big mistake is to assume that an unrepresentative sample of data is representative, and to draw conclusions based on that assumption.

If you do not have a representative set of data (and you can't always get one) then data can be less-than "theory or opinions".

dbaupp• 14 years ago

And to add to that: one can easily misinterpret (or even just mismeasure) data, especially if it is data about a complex system.

jerf• 14 years ago

If we are in a situation where we are unable to collect the data in the first place and you propose that theories or opinions are better, from what place did these putatively superior data or opinions come from? Because they clearly aren't coming from data.

1123581321• 14 years ago

When you advise against naming a variable a subset of another variable, are you talking about confusing names, or practices like breaking off a chunk of array to process instead of finding a smarter way to step through it like mapping or in-place logic?

edw5195• 14 years ago

No, just variable naming.

As we speak, I'm maintaining some old code with the following variables names:

  - CommandRec
  - Command
  - Comm
  - Com

along with the fact that some of these are reused for different purposes and all are global.

I'm having a hell of a time finding all instances to rename them properly.

I understand that some programmer interfaces are better than others hanlding this, but that belies my main point:

"Just name shit what it really is."

hythloday• 14 years ago

"Never use early exits" is tantamount to saying "never study programming languages deeply enough to understand control-flow graphs". That's not simply a good rule of thumb, it's a terrifying omission. I would suggest that early exists are simply a matter of taste and never using them is the crutch that keeps junior developers junior.

Data are on my side here: a quick perusal of the Quake 3, the Linux kernel, the Clojure runtime, and LevelDB show that Carmack, Torvalds, Hickey, and Dean all use them where appropriate.

startupslayer2• 14 years ago

Agreed.

3pt14159• 14 years ago

That one caught me up too. Maybe if you have full control of the input data and performance is not a concern, then they should be avoided, but "never" is a pretty small set.

DavidPlumpton• 14 years ago

Specifically try to judge whether an "early exit" leads to simpler, more maintainable code in this particular case. Optimize for lower cost, not for just following a rule.

iopq• 14 years ago

Agreed. A lot of the time, early exits just make sense. Instead of holding a variable called "succeeded" and doing a bunch of if elses, why not just continue on every failure? You're only testing for half a dozen side-cases and just exit out early when you encounter any one. No need to wrap all of your actual work in 5 levels of if elses.

CalinBalauru• 14 years ago

Although 'never' is a very hard word, I found that in real live most code that uses early exists simply breaks SRP (come to think of it 99% of the time that is the case)

I know people will say "but I will only write this little return statement here" before you know it you will "add this little assignment before it returns" ...

Never might be strong but it make a very good point.

startupslayer2• 14 years ago

And Never let someone tell you that you're 'junior' and they know better. Rules were made to be broken.

Vilvaram1• 14 years ago

I like the last point..

jemfinch• 14 years ago

"Never use early exits" is exceedingly bad advice, in my experience. What has led up to your claim that early exits are bad? As I've gained experience, I find myself writing code like this more and more:

    if (UnexpectedOrUnhandledCondition(x)) {
      ...
      return false;
    }

    if (OtherError(y)) {
      return false;
    }

and so on. Serial code like that is trivially easy to understand when reading; more importantly, six months later, it's far more explicit and easier to comprehend than the comparable single-exit version.

The alternative to early exits is nesting, and nesting is the readability killer. My experience has apparently been just the opposite of yours: that avoiding early exits is a sign of a junior programmer, and returning early whenever possible is a sign of an experienced programmer who knows that understands code maintenance.

takeda642• 14 years ago

Agreed. Same for using goto in C for error handling (e.g. http://www.xml.com/ldd/chapter/book/ch02.html#buierr) I found this used often in Linux kernel and I absolutely love it how clear it is.

bzdzb• 14 years ago

I agree. The alternative as you state is nested conditionals. Yuck! An alternative construct I have seen and used is to wrap code in a do {} unless(0) block and break to a single failure return or complete the block to a single success return.

jonchui• 14 years ago

well worth the read. thanks!

threepipeproblm• 14 years ago

I can't wait to read the responses, but before I do I'm going to throw out my theory. Some people keep their physical health going, and some don't. I'm not talking about going jogging, but rather metabolism, toxin accumulation, brain function, etc.

silverlake• 14 years ago

You've picked the rare few outrageously smart and successful as examples. This is like asking, how can I have a career in music like The Beatles, Michael Jackson and Elvis?

smikhanov• 14 years ago

But it's still useful to understand what made them successfull. People do biographical research, write huge biography books, and read them for this exact reason. In the case of Beatles, for example, it is widely believed that it's their time in Hamburg, when they were playing every single day for hours non-stop, that was crucial to their formation as star musicians.

olalonde2• 14 years ago

Not precisely answering your question, but I find this "programmer competency matrix" to be a very good guideline of which skills I should try to work on.

http://www.starling-software.com/employment/programmer-compe...

Loic• 14 years ago

Programming is a tool to solve a problem.

Focus on hard problems and you will end up using and developing the right tools to solve them. By focusing on hard problems, you will naturally stay up-to-date with companies looking for your expertise.

codex• 14 years ago

There are plenty of things a "great" engineer does differently, but to be "as successful" as those you've cited, you need more than that. There are 1.5M software engineers in the U.S. Your examples are probably in the top 1000--that's the top 0.1 percent (i.e. 0.001 of the total). To get there you need high cognitive capacity, hard work, and an extreme amount of luck. That said, you can increase your luck my examining macrotrends in the industry.

But what do I know--I'm not as successful as those guys, nor is anyone posting here, so we're all just pontificating because we like to hear ourselves talk. Don't lean too much on advice from anyone less successful (or as successful) than you.

ChristianMarks2• 14 years ago

"We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events." -- Daniel Kahneman. Thinking, Fast and Slow.

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. -- Ecclesiastes 9:11

Ensorceled• 14 years ago

I'm a 48 year old developer. I'm currently doing a bit of contracting on the side while starting my own company. I can still see myself doing this in another 10 years despite my current rate of decline.

Most 50+ developers "having a pretty bad time" have made the following mistake:

They became highly paid experts in technology that was important when they were 30.

Focus might work out for you, my uncle made a boat load of money in the late 90's when he was 58. Mostly because he was an expert Cobol programmer. But more than likely you will regret it in 10 years.

Stay current. Stay passionate. Stay active on Slashdot, HN, or whatever the next one is. I'm currently building using Django/jQuery/Bootstrap. My last project was GAE. I love what I do.

its_so_creative• 14 years ago

one thing the most successful - truly succesful - programmers i know or have heard of do, is understand the importance of the big idea, of designing something worth designing.

on the previous article (do you want to be doing this when you're 50), i tried to submit the following comment.

" Well, a programmer can - in a matter of hours, or at most days/weeks - assemble a factory performing the work of 10,000 full-time highly trained workers (actually more, we're talking billions of operations per second), at a total direct cost of a couple of coffees and use of a device costing few hundred dollars new, and then fully own all rights to the factory, and operate it full-time for about the cost of a normal person's phone bill per month (server instances). So the question isn't why there are millions of high-paying jobs to do so for someone else with the resulting rights and ownership by someone else:

the question is why anyone takes any of these jobs. why not build your own damn factory. It's usually only because you lack some of the skills (design, business development, marketing, choosing what to produce, etc).

so, team up with a cofounder. hence: hacker news. well, there is one downside here. the programmers who work here would never team up with a designer who knows just what to build. instead they both get hired by someone who does. the designer gets hired at a low rate, then the programmer gets hired at a high rate, just because the person hiring the two knows what is needed to get the factory producing something people will pay for: but the programmer (readers on this very article right here at hacker news), doesn't.

so yeah there are millions of jobs for you to build value for others, but it's just because you're not quite wise enough enough not to need these jobs.

(suppose i'm such a designer. split a company 60/40 with me? No, you would not. But work for 1.5 my wage at the same company, so that neither of us gets to reap the benefits. yes you would.) "

markab2• 14 years ago

You did a much better job of articulating a point I've ranted on many times to my colleagues. I love the analogy of the factory worker.

The interesting thing is no point in human history has the walls of aristocracy and institutional money been torn down so quickly in a single industry.

To do what many of us can do in our basement for the same 'work yield', people would borrow millions in the past. In the industrial era of our country, who would of been able to start a factory in their basement with $200 worth of equipment.

That's what drives me nuts when friends and people I respect want to spend their time building gimmicky products and hope they get picked up by someone. If people spent 1/2 the amount of energy looking around them and just finding one business problem to solve that makes someone else money (not just yourself) in either efficiency or growth, you'll be a very successful software engineer.

Thanks for sharing :D

zallarak• 14 years ago

This is a bit more pragmatic and short-sighted, but learn a good text editor (Vim, Emacs, there are others too) and type [relatively] fast.

mengine• 14 years ago

If you are talking strictly about money, the majority have figured out how to trade their value for something other than an hourly wage/salary. You can only make so much money by trading your time for it.

Typical Engineer: 2000 work hours/year * $50/hour = 100k/Year

John Carmack: 1.7 million copies of Quake * $1 profit = 1.7 Million/Year

Jeff Dean: # of Google shares * $756 = $?

lamdaman• 14 years ago

Work on important problems.

DenisM• 14 years ago

People will give you huge lists which will disorient more than they help. Let me give you a very short list:

1. Learn more about your customers by getting out and talking to them. Most engineers are deathly afraid do that, and many are not even technically able to do so, living in other countries or just not having the access. Thus you will have a big avantage over them.

2. Force yourself to learn to work in teams. This will push you to go against the typical lone-wolf attitude, but cohesive teams always win. without exception.

3. Learn to appreciate people who have complimentary expertise. Most engineers prefer to stick with their own kind, which creates very lopsided teams.

Ignoring these three factors dooms 99% of engineers out there to a life of being merely average, and if you make the best of all three you will be in the 1%, the exceptional engineer.

snarfy• 14 years ago

When studying a musical instrument, it is important to spend your practice time trying to improve. Do not waste time playing parts you are already capable of. Practice must be difficult and push your limits. This is true of many aspects of life, including becoming a better programmer. You should be trying to write programs that you don't know how to write, not yet another client/server database application.

andrewartajos• 14 years ago

They wrote books.

sedachv• 14 years ago

There's a book called Making it Big in Software by Sam Lightstone that came out in 2010, about this exact topic. It has interviews with several prominent programmers. I found it a boring read, though.

markab2• 14 years ago

Great Question, I'll add in my $.02 :)

I'm a 37yo that dropped out of college to go work during the late 90's in the .com boom.

I don't know what other people judge as 'successful', but a few things of note that has helped me make a great living and manage to get myself into positions of control and equity.

1. I'm always making sure that every hour I spend working is solving a BUSINESS problem, not a personal bauble that looks shinny and interesting.

2. Back to point one. I'm usually in a position where myself or the programmers on our team have a unique perspective into any project or business we are involved in. That said, I've become a quasi analyst with the business. I'm able to find 'leaks' in process and revenue that would be harder to find, and I'm always worth more around than to not be.

3. Try to keep your miracles to 2x a year. Bill Joy wrote that once, their aspen R&D team at Sun Microsystems are expected to perform them twice a year, and though not every miracle made it off the launch pad, a lot did.

4. Wins are found through empathy and inititive. Make friends, make yourself a hero by solving those friends problems and try to go out of your way to make the lives of the pople using your software easier.

5. Don't paint yourself into a box where you feel like you need to build 'fun' projects to be fulfilled. The most interesting projects I've done are often problems that people would fall asleep hearing about.

6. Get -very- good a picking horses. This is important! I've made a great living make sure that the people I work with and partner with are better than me. Always. I put myself in a situation knowing that if I don't go in with my A game, I'll probably not last long. I'm expected to do and build great things and often times I do.

That leads to...

7. Share your losses and your wins with the non-developers. When something is hard, and you solve it.. share it. When something is hard and you break it... share it. Communication is so important to building the only currency we have in our industry.. trust.

9. Only work on projects you -know- have the potential to make money. Never get stuck in the trap of being a 'cost center'. This is a dangerous place to be. Every project I've done and lived beyond 9 months is when I bled to make sure that the project is viable. Every project should be looked at as a individual P&L. consider what you make, what your team makes.. and make sure you're contributing to the bottom line revenue and health of the company.

10. Never be too good for anything, but also never get caught into the trap where you're doing anything that is below your pay-grade. This goes back to point 9.

11. Make your work your hobby, and your hobby your work. If you find real joy and meaning in what you do you'll have a great career regardless of the financial rewards.

12. Never ever spend time away from the core of the problem. Be close to the guys talking to the customers, or the vendors depending on your model. Understand their pain points, their concerns. It will help you understand how the software you're building is effecting the human-side of the equation. -NEVER- isolate yourself away from what we call distractions. Be apart of the chaos of a new business, you need to understand exactly what's going on so you can head problems before they become a crisis and an emergency.

That said. I've been involved at a partner level at various companies over the years. One we had a big hit that we sold to a international corp and though i didn't leave and buy an island, it offered me the ability to pick my subsequent projects very carefully. Any startup I'm in I'm sure that I'll at least own a good-sized chunk of the company in equity. I spend a lot of time working to understand what would be the best use of sparse technical resources and development to gain the most buck.

Any time we as a team start looking on how to attack code, we all ask ourselves... "Where is the business win?" We try to test all of our assumptions on priorities and features against that. It keeps the true scope of what we're trying to do in line, and can really add urgency when it might of been less obvious.

I've worked with a couple of partners over the years that have proven to have the right chemistry. I'm careful to not commit to things I don't believe we can do with success. If I don't think our team can effectively guide the project to success, we don't do it. If we do commit to it, we'll drive to a POC as quickly as possible and start iterating through feedback as quickly as we can.

We are engineers, we're not wage-earners. The experience we have solving software problems often puts us in a position to solve business problems with the same pragmatism.

Seek to make impact. As a matter of fact, try to be an impact-whore. In business I've seldom seem much else matter.

As someone else in this thread said, you can be a wage-earner or figure out how to participate in the business. By doing the later, I've been able to exceed what I believe my peer-wage earnings by many times. Don't be scared of that side.

No point in human history has so much new business and revenue been possible with just the trade-off of energy of the building of something new. I've been a part of a new start-up that started sadly enough in my basement. We operated like that for about 3 months before we felt we could justify the office space. We brought on people very slowly, and though now we're moving forward at a little more exciting pace, we were profitable at month 2 with 5 employees including myself and a few other not-so-expensive people.

The joy is, as the business continues to grow, I'll participate on the upside of it.. and one good month can be worth more than a year of salaried work. You taste that 1 time and it's like crack, it's hard to go back to being just a wage earner.

cx42net• 14 years ago

I'm starting to believe that to be a successful programmer, one has to be ignorant and clever. It can seems contradictory but the more I work for company, the more I'm starting to believe it.

The reason? You have to be a total ignorant to be ready to jump in a work that will require you a 2000% commitment and a lot of stress, problems, and so on. But still some of us go for it.

The next step requires to be more ignorant than at the beginning : when you start doubting about your work/competences, facing problems with your project, most people realize that they are stuck and abandon. Not successful programmer, they keep going on, ignoring all the signals, friends telling them the idea is stupid, recurrent (logical) problems, etc.

But at the end, something new appear, and sometime it's revolutionary, and sometime, the programmer become sucessful.

It's the Entrepreneur Roller Coaster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKocnAS345U) and it's a mix of willingness, chance and dedication.

fdr• 14 years ago

In the class of programmer given as an example, I think a lot of the answer is some amount of self promotion. This is not meant in a derogatory way: it is true some people self promote to the exclusion of doing something actually interesting, but there are a number of programmers who are very, very good whose names are known by very few, and the biggest difference I can see is self promotion. Self promotion can take the form of writing useful, thought provoking articles, so it is not in and of itself counter-productive.

Here's one of the programmers I respect most who I will guess only a few here have ever heard of who falls into this category:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Lane_(computer_scientist)

I heard of him because of a PostgreSQL committer I had the privilege of working with briefly, Neil Conway, who described him in glowing language that left an impression on me. However, his achievements far outstrip his strong part in the stewardship of PostgreSQL: if you have seen a TIFF, JPEG, or a PNG, you may also have some thanks to give to him. Especially mind-boggling is his contribution as measured by a study in 2000[0]. I can't comment as to the details of its methodology, but anyone who manages to show up in the top ten, nestled among entire organizations (FSF, Sun, University of California, and above MIT) is, to me, already someone deserving of a legend, or two. So are probably the other individuals mentioned there...who, unfortunately, I have never heard of: Gordon Matzigkeit, and Paul Houle. I have, like many people, heard of Ulrich Drepper, who appears on this list, and the tidings I hear are not entirely positive. But we know what is said about publicity...

Since that conversation with Neil some years ago, I have interacted with Tom and read his mailings on the postgresql mailing lists a number of times. There, you see him dealing with all the usual bullshit everyone has to put up with in real time: toolchain regressions, build farm issues, niggles in two features that interact badly, and so on. Besides that, the quality and care in even the first draft of his features are also remarkable.

Unlike some famous programmers who -- while very competent -- can be very contrarian in their work (and invite controversy, which is some form of self-promotion), Tom is not as such, and I think provides a great counter-point to that style of distinguishment.

I think it'd be fascinating for someone who has the skill to interview him about his long and productive service to writing useful software. If I have to guess on his behalf, here's what I can assess about Tom:

* Work on important problems

* Work on them for a long time each

* ...but not necessarily forever

* Build the software to last

* Keep working

[0] http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/ar...

reiz• 14 years ago

Somebody told me the only difference between a young programmer and a old programmer is the experience. The old programmer did already a ton of mistakes. And if he learned from that, he is dam good. The young programmer will do a ton of mistakes and hopefully learn from that.

mohit_agg• 14 years ago

they simply 'pursue excellence' and success follows.

they don't just think about adding a new feature, they are the one's that will say, 'let's re-architect the whole system', 'we need a better programming language'. they will read research papers, follow the latest in technologies and apply them in their field to create prototypes even if it's not part of their job.

good business people will appreciate it and back them up. if they don't they will probably find other people who will because they are passionate about it.

they can start their own ventures but who wants 10 companies like google believing in the same values, competing against each other, instead working for a company lets them focus more on their passion.

this is just what i think and i may be wrong. this is my first comment on HN. :)

Ask HN: What did the really successful programmers do differently?

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