Andreessen Horowitz Invests $15M In Text Annotation Startup Rap Genius

http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/03/andreessen-horowitz-iinvests-15-million-in-rap-genius/

by kapilkale • 14 years ago

200 63 14 years ago

I love Rap Genius, but haven't lyrics websites been repeatedly shut down in the past for copyright infringement? For instance, http://news.cnet.com/lyrics-sites-out-of-tune-with-copyright...

I always assumed that this was why all the lyrics websites were shitty and ad-infested - get money while you can, before you get shut down. And I also assumed that was why Google or Yahoo or some other competent people didn't make a nice lyrics website to outcompete them.

So what's different about Rap Genius?

phuff• 14 years ago

Based on Marc's reasoning given on the site, sounds like they have an easy pivot into annotating everything if the rights issue takes them out of the lyrics game...

streptomycin4• 14 years ago

But if the rights issue wasn't there, wouldn't Google build a competitor in a few days? It's a fairly simple website to make, and lyrics websites do a ton of traffic.

citricsquid3• 14 years ago

    I always assumed that this was why all the lyrics websites were shitty and ad-infested

About a year ago someone talked about lyric websites (either here or on reddit) and they explained that the reason they have terrible adverts isn't because they get shut down, it's because user retention is terrible. People only look for lyrics now and again[1], it's google -> click link -> read lyrics -> leave, there's no browsing, very few people have any loyalty to any lyric site, so they have to make as much as they can off that 1 visit because they probably won't be back.

[1] I think rapgenius solves this problem by providing value way beyond just lyrics

streptomycin4• 14 years ago

However, they are still questionably legal, and they do get shut down from time to time.

JoshTriplett• 14 years ago

That still stems from the same problem, I think. If any lyric site became sufficiently comprehensive and widespread, it would get legal threats and end up dead. I occasionally want to look up some lyrics; I do a search, and end up with some results. If any of the sites I reached looked remotely reputable, I might remember it for the next time. None of them ever do.

Permit• 14 years ago

Perhaps you can claim fair use if you're critiquing and understanding the work rather than just pasting it? A quick search turned up no legal troubles for Rap Genius thus far. They do have an email address for DMCA takedowns, however.

citricsquid3• 14 years ago

Rapgenius is seriously wonderful. I've been listening to more and more rap recently and using rapgenius to find and understand lyrics, the fact that they have the people writing the tracks commenting on the interpretations (via videos) makes it even better.

I finally got to contribute to the site a few weeks ago and I was super happy when they accepted my contribution, I don't know why I was happy, I only got to fix a typo, but it still felt great.

I have no idea how they can make money and the idea seemed silly to me the first time I heard about it ("a site where people explain lyrics is part of yc?") but after using it I'm in love. My enjoyment of rap music has increased thanks to rapgenius.

tedmiston3• 14 years ago

The dying reply to this post mentions quality control for explanations. It's definitely a real concern. Not all of the explanations are spot on. Some are outright wrong, some are definitely thrown up very quickly for fast karma, some are shallow explanations, some are jokes and not really explanations at all. That aside, we're dealing with poetry -- obviously some things are open to interpretation.

For those curious of use outside of rap music, you can see The Bill of Rights (50% explained) by James Madison ft. Thomas Jefferson [1].

1: http://rapgenius.com/James-madison-the-bill-of-rights-lyrics

cyarvin• 14 years ago

When I click on "unreasonable searches and seizures," I get this... excellent... explanation:

This part of the Constitution is supposed to guarantee that 5-0 can’t fuck with you (unless they have “probable cause”)

But — the Conservatives found a way around this by allowing a “stop and frisk” aka “Terry stop” if cops have “reasonable suspicion” (this is why they are still allowed to fuck with you) (see Terry v. Ohio)

In an automobile, cops are often held to the “plain view” standard, although the Roberts court has recently increased their ability to fuck with you (see Beacoats v. Georgia)

Nowadays, keeping “your glove compartment locked” is not enough to protect you, as it was in the Jay-Z/Clinton era of liberal jurisprudence in criminal procedure.

While this is a wonderful text and an unimpeachable use of the technology, I can't avoid reflecting that certain initial choices of brand identification may present serious practical concerns in a prospective attempt to pivot and expand.

rjtavares• 14 years ago

I don't mind the jokes - I actually find it fits the culture. They should expands with a another site for "normal" content though. Using Rap Genius has obvious branding issues...

kbkb• 14 years ago

Awesome news! I've been a fan of rapgenius for a while and its nice to see Mahbod getting props. I hadn't considered the possibilities outside of hip hop lyrics, but as the article points out there is a huge potential within legal text, academic papers, etc (hopefully not the bible or other religious text... I can imagine that becoming a huge clusterf*ck).

tomlemon• 14 years ago

Read the official announcement on Rap Genius: http://rapgenius.com/Marc-andreessen-why-andreessen-horowitz...

twoodfin• 14 years ago

Intriguing. It's hard to imagine any creative work of art or engineering that couldn't benefit from well-curated annotation. Browsing around Rap Genius, I can't help but wish for a digital copy of Ulysses with this kind of interface to crowd-sourced commentary.

But outside of big traffic draws like song lyrics, I'm not sure what the monetization potential is.

marquis• 14 years ago

Song lyric translations are huge outside of english speaking countries. U.S. rock/pop is played all over the world and most people can sing some words of a well-known english song. The potential to reach an international audience is huge, given the current deplorable state of other lyric sites. Getting a literal translation doesn't really help with song lyrics given that it tends towards poetry.

pemulis• 14 years ago

There are incredible online annotations for novels by Thomas Pynchon[1] and David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest[2], which are what I thought of first when they talked about expanding into annotating literature. The monetization potential in that area in particular is huge, looking at Cliffs Notes and the like. It's interesting that Andreessen Horowitz is investing in a company that seems to be solving the community problem rather than the technical problem of mass annotation. It seems like the technical challenges were the main hold-up back in the early 90s, but Wikipedia has shown the power and importance of community building when you're trying to create a universal reference.

[1] http://pynchonwiki.com/

[2] http://infinitejest.wallacewiki.com/david-foster-wallace/ind...

tedmiston3• 14 years ago

Good annotation for potentially ambiguous text documents is definitely monetizable in other areas. Look at SparkNotes and CliffsNotes in education. Being able to skim verbose or confusing sections of, say a physics textbook, with simple explanations from other readers with comparable backgrounds to me is incredibly helpful.

staunch• 14 years ago

The idea that it could turn into a large music-oriented social network (a next-gen MySpace) or some kind of scalable annotation platform could make this not insane. Big opportunity + big risk = perfect YC/AH investment.

I have a feeling that the SEO battle for their keywords is about to get a lot more fierce though. I doubt they've solidified their spot in Google yet, so any tweak on Google's part or a blackhat SEO could seriously set them back.

kapilkale• 14 years ago

They've got great unique content. This is good for two reasons:

a) Google loves unique content. Unique content on old-world lyrics websites consists of comments buried under the fold. Whereas these guys have pages and subpages full of it.

b) They're going to get a bajillion inbound links because their content is interesting to link to (as opposed to standard lyrics sites). Which will rank them higher than their competitors for the same queries.

I see a lot of comparisons with Yelp. I still type in business names with "Yelp" appended into google because I want a specific result. Wouldn't be surprised if they're getting the same sort of queries already since what they have is so much better than any lyrics site.

Side note: I just opened AZ lyrics and some flash abomination nearly crashed my browser.

undergroundhero• 14 years ago

This is true today, and RapGenius has a great linking feature that lets you link to a single line explanation in the lyrics (helpful so the recipient doesn't have to scroll through and find the line of interest).

josscrowcroft• 14 years ago

Really, does nobody else read the logo as "rapegenius"?

Honestly not being crude or puerile here - I choked on tea when I saw it...

A tiny little bit of spacing between the words would go a long way here I feel.

bvdbijl• 14 years ago

It's probably the headphones, when I read it I first read "rap" and then see the headphones, pulling my eyes there and making me look at the e.

At least, I think that's what the problem is

mikeryan• 14 years ago

Tahts teh wya we raed we tedn to recnognze wrod shpaes instaed of the wrods thmeslevse

debacle• 14 years ago

What a simple, hindsightedly obvious idea with tons of appeal.

tworats• 14 years ago

I've been impressed by Andreedsen Horowitz's approach of recognizing winners in large markets and putting large amounts of money to work. It's gutsy and smart.

However, I'm concerned about putting large amounts of money into startups that have yet to become businesses. An over-abundance of resources is often detrimental to realizing a vision and finding a market.

Anyway, I remain a fan of A16Z and suspect they've seen something compelling not yet visibile to the outside observer.

pirroh3• 14 years ago

For sure he's gutsy, but venture capital today means mostly "putting large amounts of money into startups that have yet to become businesses"-YCombinator demo day is the most fitting example that comes to my mind right now.

At least it's a breath of fresh air... no disruption just for the sake of using a buzzword--rather money poured on a project that has a faithful community, and with some niche design choices. Reminds of anything? Reddit!

sethbannon• 14 years ago

Another win for NYC tech.

brnstz• 14 years ago

RapGenius is a nice site for viewing lyrics and understanding obscure (to you) references. But a tally sheet of line-by-line references is not really an "explanation" of a rap/song/poem. Literary allusion has a long history and it can deepen the intellectual/emotional experience of a work, but people can get too obsessed with understanding "references" while missing the forest from the trees.

It's great the site isn't limited to rap, though. No one has tackled explaining Howl yet :) http://rapgenius.com/Alan-ginsberg-howl-lyrics

lunchbox• 14 years ago

On the right of each song page is a section dedicated to explaining the whole song. I don't see the problem.

yumraj• 14 years ago

I guess "Spray and pray" strategy at works. Now if Rap Genius can figure out how to steer clear of potential copyright violations and come up with a revenue model, they could be successful.

iball• 14 years ago

ilan, one of the founders of rap genius here..

we're ready to blow up the bank accounts of brilliant engineers (rails, ios) and designers who want to help us create the internet talmud™

if you're interested, send links to stuff you've built or any work you're proud of! jobs@rapgenius.com

clobber• 14 years ago

How is Rap Genius different from songmeanings.net?

qq662• 14 years ago

From a UI perspective, Rap Genius explains lyrics line-by-line whereas SongMeanings is more of a discussion of the whole song, and Rap Genius tends to canonicalize explanations whereas SongMeanings is more of a free-for-all discussion. The line-by-line system is much better for rap music.

nrlucas• 14 years ago

For all music. You can select lines or stanzas, so it has all levels of scope in regard to the annotations.

jmccaffrey• 14 years ago

I had no idea Rap Genius was a YC company. I listen to _alot_ of rap while working, and often look up the more intricate lyrics/phrases I haven't heard of.

Rap Genius is far and way the best site, the next step down the ladder is things like Yahoo Answers...

trotsky• 14 years ago

how do you avoid licensing all the content you're making available for annotation? If you're going to annotate literature that's under copyright (for example) won't you pretty much have to provide the base work to anyone looking for annotations?

Or is the idea to build up content until you get slapped and then license it back to existing licensees like amazon or rhapsody?

Looks a bit like the latter given the pretty broad sublicensing in the TOU, "Hip Hop Wikipedia" except, you know, for the part where everyone can use the information.

czzarr• 14 years ago

This is awesome. I remember when the name of rapgenius was decided on the two plus two forums between rapopedia, rapexegesis and rapgenius.

The initial traction really came from the high stakes online poker player community and two plus two generally. I wonder why one of the first guys to be involved, Ariel Schneller (Foxwoodsfiend/Daevils/MikeVickisGod on poker sites) dropped out of the adventure.

This is him commenting on the funding on 2p2: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=35110971...

wilfra• 14 years ago

Online Poker Mafia blowin up huge. Strasser got his own hedge fund. Who's next?

"I wonder why one of the first guys to be involved, Ariel Schneller...dropped out"

He's been in Harvard Law School, before that working on DeucesCracked/crushing high stakes etc. Not hard to see why he'd choose that instead of working on a rap lyrics website. I think lots of people underestimated this team.

Congrats guys!

scrame2• 14 years ago

Rapgenius is good in the way StackOverflow is good: A novel, well-executed UI to a kind of website that has been done to death (in this case its lyrics sites). Not to mention good SEO.

It also suffers from the same problem, which is that the users that are most engaged are often not the best people to give explanations. I pretty frequently see tracks that have bad annotations, misunderstand lines (not to mention just straight out wrong lyrics), or break the context.

Here's an example: http://rapgenius.com/Aesop-rock-were-famous-lyrics#note-7597...

That entire stanza the "favorite" is totally sarcastic, he's specifically calling out another MC (Esoteric) for just doing lame songs about transformers. In fact, the 2 marks after that block (which are part of the same verse) are properly noting who he is targeting. So in this case, the the lyrics are wrong, the selected lines are breaking the context, and the explanation is totally contrary to whats even being discussed.

There is no "crowdsourced" way of fixing this, just a note that the "staff" hasn't verified it. I see this pretty frequently, actually on pretty much every track I've looked up there.

I think its a great idea, but it should take a lesson from SO or even wikipedia on how to actually correct problems like this, rather than just leaving it to the first person to post it.

Edit: This may be a factor of this stuff being a bit more obscure and dense than your average Kanye or Rick Ross track, as well as being unpopular, but I've put in several suggestions over the last year and never heard back anything about things being accepted or being able to actually make corrections.

beaumartinez• 14 years ago

OT: I'm a big fan of Esoteric—interesting observation. He is a bit gimmicky at times (I trust you've seen his "Pterovision" videos on YouTube[1]—they're actually very funny).

[1] http://www.youtube.com/user/pterolab

scrame2• 14 years ago

Yeah, that example just stuck with me since I've been trying to dig up all the tracks related to the Demigodz/Def Jux beef, which is all pretty hilarious. Especially 10 years later. I came across the rapgenius page trying to find "we're famous" on youtube (like I said, Good SEO!), and was just struck at how completely off the mark the commentary was on it.

NelsonMinar• 14 years ago

Not a bad investment for a little white devil sophistry. (Re: http://rapgenius.com/Das-racist-middle-of-the-cake-lyrics)

dwhly• 14 years ago

We think this is a great day for annotation. But we had a few questions. So we wrote an open letter to Marc Andreessen and Rap Genius.

https://blog.hypothes.is/a-letter-to-marc-andreessen-and-rap...

pirroh3• 14 years ago

"Annotation eventually belongs in the browser." Couldn't agree more.

Endless comment streams proved to be of little if no value. Rap Genius is a glaring example that annotations (when designed and user properly) have way more potential than comments. The big money investment on Rap Genius just seals the deal, and pave the way for a Web where annotations are first class citizens.

Hope all the browsers will jump in the bandwagon very soon.

quasistar• 14 years ago

Gods they must be cray

Lyrics over HTTP?

What would Kool Herc say?

Venture valuation

Drifting to the perihelion

Maboo with the Bently scout

Now Marissa's got her checkbook out

Annotations the new cream

Even writin up your daydreams

Like Cobb with one last job

Wakin up before you scream

A Venn diagram intersection

"Seems like a bad idea"

"No really is a good idea"

Priceless like a loan rejection

Walter Bishop eating Thin Mints

Don't require six senses

To see text bubbles everywhere

Maybe time to give up the ghost

Or upgrade to a $7 sponsored post

cs702• 14 years ago

I first learned of Rap Genius in the Yale Alumni Magazine earlier this year, and concluded that the idea was clever but the business opportunity small.[1] Now that Rap Genius is expanding its target market to general text annotation, the business opportunity looks substantial to me. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking analysis of textbooks, critiques of literary works, and commentary on the news -- the potential uses are many. Hats off to the team.

[1] http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issues/2012_05/feature_rap...

malandrew• 14 years ago

I secretly hope that this startup ends up producing many gems similar to the "Rap Battle Translated" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6H0i1RAdHk

This would make it like a "meme in motion" generator. Like moot's Canvas but for video.

samstave• 14 years ago

Both of those were really entertaining, but I far prefer the translation version...

I'd also be interested in seeing white 17th century aristocrates engage in a duel whereby they use modern rap battle language whilst in the setting of a victorian sword/gun draw-style duel.

dumb-dumb• 14 years ago

I've seen this done with specific bands, but this is a great idea for a website. Regardless of how well they execute, it's just a great idea. Lyric sites are huge, but many of them are rather crappy (I guess because they try too hard to monetize). Annotations of lyrics are scattered across many sites. It would be great to have them all in one place.

But let's hope it doesn't become like a CDDB fiasco.

Tossrock• 14 years ago

Interesting. I saw the founders at ycombinator's Work for a Startup day, where a bunch of YC companies basically pitched their companies, but to engineers instead of investors. The rap genius guys were there, but with handmade signs, and didn't present. Honestly, at the time I thought they had snuck in or something. They were hustling people all night trying to convince them to come work for them; gotta respect the dedication.

ablefire• 14 years ago

They should apply the Rapgenius magic to Shakespeare. Crowdsourced Cliff Notes++.

gadders• 14 years ago

I always feel I'd get on with Ben Horowitz, given his apparent liking for a) hip-hop, b) boxing and c) technology and business (although mfar ore successful at it than me).

If I found he liked fly-fishing as well we'd be like blood brothers or something.

Andreessen Horowitz Invests $15M In Text Annotation Startup Rap Genius

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