Dutch spy services have restricted intelligence-sharing with the United States

https://intelnews.org/2025/10/20/01-3416/

by Refreeze5224 • 9 months ago

311 183 9 months ago

I think we all know whose fault that is.

jacquesm2• 9 months ago

The current dutch (demissionary) PM is the former head of the Dutch intelligence services. To say that Trump isn't trusted by EU intelligence services would be a vast understatement.

michelb2• 9 months ago

Well, that's the same guy that planted Palantir in the Dutch government, since 2011.

jacquesm2• 9 months ago

Yes, so?

Indeed, that wasn't a great decision. But... there is a serious lack of alternatives that makes it very hard to get around the United States and Israel when it comes to this kind of software. Of course the Dutch should have rolled their own but give that we can't even get our tax software sorted out (I think they've been at it for 30 years), had our digital notary services hacked and a number of other noteworthy items I think that maybe 'buy' instead of 'build' was the right decision.

It's very tricky, I would definitely not be able to claim that in his shoes I would have done better. As a prime minister he's done a fair job given the absolutely impossible situation in our government right now, and this decision is one of those where at least he's willing to make a stand (unlike many other EU countries).

This level of governing is always going to be an exercise in endless compromises.

XorNot2• 9 months ago

Palantir might be an American company, but if you hire them it's not like a bunch of Americans come and take over your IT systems. There entire business model is "forward deployed engineers" who by necessity are locals and come help setup things on your own infrastructure.

crimsoneer• 9 months ago

Palantir installing their kit on your on prem network doesn't give them anymore magical ability to exfiltrate data than installing Microsoft office would.

throwawayq342319• 9 months ago

To say that Trump isn't trusted by EU intelligence services would be a vast understatement.

Trump isn't trusted by any intelligence service, but seems to only publicly distrust his own ones.

OutOfHere4• 9 months ago

It would be glorious to see Five Eyes fall apart, but that is much bigger ask. Canada would be wise to kick it off before the US annexes it.

psunavy03• 9 months ago

Because what we all need is to see the Ministry of State Security be the most capable intelligence agency in the world . . . wait, no we don't.

Alive-in-20252• 9 months ago

Russia and China still exist and are pre-eminent dangers. The US has gone crazy but we still need to work together to discourage wars related to invading taiwan or Europe. I am terrified the US won't come back to being an actual democracy that follows the rule of law. At the same time, we can just stop surveilling our citizens in the democratic free world. We can just decide to do that.

micromacrofoot• 9 months ago

five eyes falling apart now seems like a "be careful what you wish for" situation where we'd start losing long-held alliances?

anigbrowl• 9 months ago

I think you might be putting the cart before the (stampeding) horse here.

throwawayq342319• 9 months ago

the vast majority of people rooting for this outcome want to see a more powerful china or russia

dboreham• 9 months ago

Those alliances are language and culture-based. Bit stronger than one orange dipshit can disrupt.

Sharing of information can be restricted though for various reasons, as has been suggested happened regarding Pearl Harbor.

michelb2• 9 months ago

The USA probably doesn't worry much, our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure. All internet access flows through the same cable the NSA has access to. Radio traffic is intercepted in multiple locations in The Netherlands.

So sure, there are probably some signals the USA won't receive, but they still get the bulk of it.

crote4• 9 months ago

our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure

And this is already being criticized over and over again. With various German government organizations now actively moving away from Microsoft and demonstrating that you don't need Outlook & Office 365 to run a government, I would be quite surprised if the possibility of doing the same here won't at least be discussed any time something needs an overhaul.

jeroenhd2• 9 months ago

As with every large Microsoft migration, the problem isn't figuring out what's necessary to run a government.

People in high places only know Microsoft and they don't want to risk having to learn something new. National security isn't as big of a deal as having to spend a few afternoons of training, after all.

paganel• 9 months ago

That won't ever happen at a large enough scale in Germany itself because of the Ramstein military base (and other such US military bases located on German soil). Playing "we're independent!" it's just a futile game as long as the military US presence in Germany is an ongoing thing.

wkat42423• 9 months ago

The Dutch IRS just doubled down on M365 though saying they couldn't find any alternative. Strange detail though is that they were not on a cloud service until now. It's a bit of a weird time to decide to migrate to a US cloud service when most places are trying to get away from them.

renewiltord• 9 months ago

I've been hearing about the German government moving to Linux from the days when I installed Red Hat Linux 7, I think https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/news/it-managers-cite-sec...

We will probably have fusion power first.

pjmlp• 9 months ago

I bet they will still be using Android and iOS devices, accessing those systems from Windows and macOS desktops and laptops, developing the bulk of the applications in Java (Oracle), C# (Microsoft), Go (Google),....

The solution isn't going for a few cloud products, or Libre Office, the solution has to be the whole stack like during cold war days when almost every nation had their own computing stack.

jeroenhd2• 9 months ago

Don't underestimate the AIVD/MIVD. They have quite the history infiltrating Russian networks and operations and operate a rather useful satellite listening post.

That said, the current American administration probably doesn't see Russia as a threat.

America has always been spying on Europe, making it a bit harder by not willingly providing intel is a step in the right direction at least.

netsharc• 9 months ago

It'd be risky if Russia-friendly folks start telling Moscow the intelligence that the Dutch gathered, and some of the current American administration seem very Russia-friendly..

jimbohn2• 9 months ago

Somebody might even say that the administration sees russia as a useful tool to force europeans into paying a protection tol, not sure it's limited to this administration either

hagbard_c• 9 months ago

That said, the current American administration probably doesn't see Russia as a threat.

That's just pabulum for the masses which you're better off not repeating so as not to appear so easily fooled. Keep your friends close and your enemy closer [1] rings a bell I assume?

[1] https://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/keep-your-friends-close-...

CamperBob2• 9 months ago

That said, the current American administration probably doesn't see Russia as a threat.

Gee, you think? https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/pete-hegseth-tie-causes-...

The entire Trump administration is indistinguishable from a deliberate -- and very successful -- attack.

terminalshort2• 9 months ago

If Dutch intelligence is failing to encrypt their data to the point that AWS / the US government could see it then they deserve to lose every byte of it.

vanviegen4• 9 months ago

Don't worry, these agencies seem to be appropriately paranoid. As an example: each intelligence worker gets three desktops PCs with various levels of security / airgapping.

mettamage• 9 months ago

The USA probably doesn't worry much

No, if they did, they'd know about certain attacks or planned attacks earlier [1]. So they should but they don't.

[1] https://www.amazon.nl/Het-oorlog-maar-niemand-ziet/dp/946381... - not an affiliated link, just the first one I could find.

woliveirajr• 9 months ago

Stuxnet comes to mind.

howmayiannoyyou• 9 months ago

Tensions in Venezuela and Dutch interests in the Caribbean. That's the explanation and its public posturing that likely doesn't reflect reality.

crote4• 9 months ago

The Dutch governments haven't exactly shown a lot of interest into their Caribbean links over the last few decades. The actions of the US regarding Venezuela are barely getting mentioned in the Dutch news, and the physical proximity to Aruba/Bonaire/Curacao is not even mentioned in passing.

clydethefrog• 9 months ago

The government-funded news was surprisingly open about it two months ago:

Many residents would rather see the American ships leave than arrive. Curaçao traditionally maintains close ties with Venezuela, and residents fear the island will be drawn into a geopolitical conflict. [...] The Dutch government determines the course in these areas under pressure from Washington, while Curaçao itself has little influence.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2580380-curacao-voelt-spanning-tussen...

lenerdenator2• 9 months ago

Everything's for sale. The Dutch were still buying natural gas from Russia as late as 2020 [0] despite 6 years of irregular warfare in the Donbas at that point and 12 years of South Ossetia in Georgia. Hell, they still might be through some sort of third-party reseller.

Compared to the early years of the Donbas invasion, having a leader full of hot air is small potatoes.

There's always room for spies to get what they want. It's just a matter of what that will be.

[0] https://www.gasunie.nl/en/gas-infrastructure/blog-247-energy...

crote4• 9 months ago

The main reason for the Dutch dependence on Russian gas is the rapid shutdown of the Slochteren field for political reasons[0], while there weren't yet any LNG terminals available to import it from outside Europe. Considering Europe didn't yet view Russia as a genuine threat it's not exactly surprising that importing Russian gas was seen as a viable short-term strategy.

[0]: The Slochteren field still has plenty of gas remaining. It was shut down due to pushback from the inhabitants of Groningen, whose houses were being destroyed by earthquakes - caused by soil subsidence as a result of gas extraction. If there were to have been a serious war with Russia at that point, The Netherlands could've trivially shut off all gas imports by scaling the extraction back up.

mschuster91• 9 months ago

The Dutch did extend Groningen for a time after the Russians invaded Ukraine.

The problem with earthquakes is no one wants to be held accountable when a house is destroyed and people die.

lenerdenator2• 9 months ago

The point isn't about the potential for future production of natural gas or other petrochemical products from Slochteren. The point is that Europeans regularly participate in dealings with countries that act against their best interests on a regular basis, and that there's no real reason to believe that the Dutch will behave any differently with Trump.

Considering Europe didn't yet view Russia as a genuine threat it's not exactly surprising that importing Russian gas was seen as a viable short-term strategy.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Everything should have told Europeans that Russia was reverting back to its old autocratic imperial ways. Everything. Ukrainian politicians and internal dissidents were being poisoned with dioxins and radioisotopes almost 20 years ago by Russian agents. Putin was stacking on more and more repression as the years went by. Hacking campaigns have been a constant problem in the West for decades with strong evidence to suggest the Russian government as a threat actor. The Russian military was building weapons specifically designed to counter NATO, which is the backbone of strategic defense in Europe. And that's before you take into account things like the South Ossetia war which saw the Russians literally invade another country for wanting to move towards a Western sphere of influence.

What was funding all of this? Purchases of Russian petroleum products by Europeans who were told over and over to stop by American allies, only to be caught with their flies unzipped when the tanks started rolling into the Donbas three years ago.

I have no reason to think that the continent will behave any differently when faced with a Trump administration that would give them benefits to look the other way. The damage he could do to the continent is insignificant compared to what Putin did.

fmajid• 9 months ago

Not to mention the downing of MH17, with 193 Dutch citizens aboard, by the Russians in 2016.

IT4MD• 9 months ago

Smart move.

aa_is_op• 9 months ago

Well... taking into account that Trump was screaming and swearing at Zelenskyy to surrender to Russia or Putin will destroy Ukraine just yesterday... I don't see why the Dutch would stop sharing intel with the US

</sarcasm>

jay_kyburz2• 9 months ago

Where did you see this? I haven't read that anywhere.

Refreeze5224• 9 months ago

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2025/10/19/8003438/

throwawayq342319• 9 months ago

I genuinely don't understand why Trump doing whatever Putin says, every time, is not a bigger deal in American politics.

I've never seen one human being own another human being so completely yet it seems to be a complete non-story.

MiiMe198• 9 months ago

Am I the only one that doesn't really think of most of Europe as an ally anymore? If it wasn't for shared opposition to Russia and China I would support us cutting most of these ties anyways.

null_deref2• 9 months ago

Why?

MiiMe198• 9 months ago

Different ideas on economics (socialism vs capitalism) and personal freedoms, lack of a shared cultural background anymore, etc.

something98• 9 months ago

Yes, you are the only one that thinks that.

MiiMe198• 9 months ago

I mean, without mentioning Russia or China, why should we?

hjort-e2• 9 months ago

Yes. And the current US government not opposing Russia, it's actively helping Russia destroy democracies

Yoric2• 9 months ago

Well, if it helps, plenty of us Europeans don't think of the US as allies anymore. The current administration has made it quite clear.

The only hope is that the next administration will be a bit less eager to cut ties with all its allies and might fix some of the self-inflicted damage.

hkt2• 9 months ago

The only actual hope is a common European defence policy (and industry) independent of NATO. The day Germany agrees to it, the dominos might fall, and the USA might realise what it has lost.

LgWoodenBadger• 9 months ago

What the United States has just demonstrated is that it's idiotic to rely on them for anything fundamentally vital when its government can drastically and dramatically go manic/bi-polar ever 4 years

jimbohn2• 9 months ago

Pretty sure lots of smart-minded europeans would love a chance for europe to detach and be actually allowed to develop its own services sector. Seems to me the US wants europe to be a contributing ally when it suits, and an open market to dump services into when it doesn't

throwawayq342319• 9 months ago

Yes. Aside from Trump the United States and Europe share overwhelming interests and values. When Trump is gone they should work hard to repair what he has destroyed

Icingdeath• 9 months ago

Is it fair to say the US has been a bit erratic lately? Seems to me its hard to maintain trust in these circumstances.

stronglikedan• 9 months ago

Is it fair to say the US has been a bit erratic lately?

More than usual? Not really

throwawayq342319• 9 months ago

Yes, Americans made the mistake of electing somebody that doesn't believe in stepping down peacefully if he loses an election, among other things.

RandomBacon5• 9 months ago

doesn't believe in stepping down peacefully if he loses an election, among other things.

Source?

We do have evidence that he stepped down after his first term.

bamboozled• 9 months ago

Good

ElevenLathe2• 9 months ago

...inter-agency relations between Dutch and American intelligence organizations remain “excellent”.

While I highly doubt that Dutch Intelligence is significantly more accountable tothat the American ones are, and therefore don't assume that any meaningful intelligence will actually be withheld (or at least, if is being withheld, it isn't because of the decision being discussed in this piece), BUT it is at least interesting that they made this announcement, which suggests some element somewhere in the European deep state is at least trying to pressure Washington in some way.

ant6n• 9 months ago

“The European Deep State”?

ElevenLathe2• 9 months ago

You think they don't have one too?

alliao• 9 months ago

so they say.. perhaps they detected leaks and just doing some a/b testing now

escanda• 9 months ago

Trump is widely adopted around intel services; at least in Spain.

mmonaghan• 9 months ago

Dramatic headline. They're probably not sharing Ukraine-specific planning info but will continue sharing everything else. My theory is that they can't trust Trump to keep Ukraine stuff secret and I agree with them.

Dutch spy services have restricted intelligence-sharing with the United States

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