Always Invite Anna

by walterbell • 10 months ago

1154 178 10 months ago

outside1234• 10 months ago

This is some of the best advice you'll ever get about building inclusive teams and making people feel like they can approach you about anything.

If you can approach them and get rejected each time, then surely they can approach you for advice on how to approach a problem.

poolnoodle• 10 months ago

This warmed my heart. Happy I read it.

nrawe• 10 months ago

It's a great message, thanks for sharing.

kaladin-jasnah• 10 months ago

Thanks for sharing this! It made my day a little brighter.

ge96• 10 months ago

That hero image I believe is from Lost in Translation

Which has an interesting scene the x-ray machines I think were flying overhead on these rails going between rooms

the_af• 10 months ago

Yes, the header is from Lost in Translation.

9x39• 10 months ago

This is also good advice if you're sensing people aren't as part of the group or team anymore, you...make them part of it again. Putting forth the effort (which may not be returned) of coordinating and including people is often the price of keeping a group together that you're leading or invested in.

numbers• 10 months ago

this reminds me of a friend who we've excluded from the group b/c of the age old advice of "the worst they can say is no". Well, we invited him to everything at first it was either no responses or late responses like "sorry was busy with work".

The whole friend group took their turns and attempts at inviting him.

It sort of stopped altogether when we started getting responses like "hey, don't call me without scheduling a call with me before" or getting a text 3 days later "hey what's up, I don't want to hang out".

He's a workaholic and believes his work is the most important thing (he switches jobs every 6-9 months) so the whole friend group has now just stopped trying.

For context, this has been going on for 10 years and about a year ago everyone stopped trying.

xg152• 10 months ago

I think there is a difference between making it clear to a person they'll always have the option to join - and pushing that person to join.

Anna in the story did not express regret that she never joined. And as far as we know, Alexei wasn't expecting her to take his invitations either - because it wasn't about actually getting her to go to the party, it was just about communicating to her that the "we've stopped inviting you to our group events because you always say no" moment never happened and she was still a part of the group. That was what she had appreciated in the end.

On the other hand, what your group attempted seems more like a concerted push to change the person's behavior. Most people would probably reject that if they want to stay in control of their own plans.

squigz5• 10 months ago

What? The group's behavior is basically just being a group of friends and inviting another friend?

squigz5• 10 months ago

I was all ready to respond and defend this guy, but... yeah, no.

All advice has limits. In this case, "telling your friends to schedule their calls with you" is that limit... and then some.

Ancapistani5• 10 months ago

I strongly disagree.

Maybe it's an age thing, a "head of household" thing, or just an A(u)DHD thing - but I've definitely been in places in my life where I didn't have time to do anything discretionary.

To put it another way - if they're willing to ask you to schedule time to talk to them, they're already violating social norms. Why would they bother to give you a way to get ahold of them if they didn't value the relationship? Why not just reply "I don't want to talk to you" instead?

It sounds to me like they're legitimately just way too busy, to the point that they're likely well down the road toward burnout and don't even have time for themselves.

cultofmetatron• 10 months ago

For context, this has been going on for 10 years and about a year ago everyone stopped trying.

frankly I'm a little jealous.... I can't imagine anyone, let alone a whole friend group, putting in that level of effort to stay in touch with me. I would probably disappear from everyone's imaginations if I didn't regularly reach out to people.

Ancapistani5• 10 months ago

It sort of stopped altogether when we started getting responses like "hey, don't call me without scheduling a call with me before" or getting a text 3 days later "hey what's up, I don't want to hang out".

This is a good thing!

It doesn't (necessarily) mean that person doesn't want to be friends or doesn't value your group; it means they feel comfortable telling you how they feel even though doing so is a mild violation of social norms.

If I were in your shoes, I'd just make sure they're not accidentally booted from the group chat (etc.), but otherwise just leave them be. Maybe a couple of times a year mention something like "We're all going to ___ next week, if you'd like to join. No stress!" just as a keepalive, but otherwise let them do their own thing.

I have several very close, long-term friends that I've not spoken to in months or years, because that's just who we are and where we are in life. If any of them called me in an emergency I'd drop everything to help them, and I'm 100% confident they would do the same. We _have_ done that for each other before.

p1mrx• 10 months ago

Why Anna, and not a thousand other people in the area? She must've done something to enter the group in the first place.

chrsig• 10 months ago

You're sort of answering your own question. It was a matter of proximity. The thousand others were a greater distance in the initial conditions.

mardef• 10 months ago

Why not everyone invite a different Anna?

I think the moral is for everyone to be individually a bit nicer, not one friend group to support an entire community.

nenenejej3• 10 months ago

Friendship

deeg• 10 months ago

We need more heroes of kindness.

kulahan• 10 months ago

We need more kind acts. It feels like these days are only focused on useless platitudes and complaints about useless platitudes, with all action taking a back seat.

Hell is full of good intentions, Heaven is full of good works.

nick__m• 10 months ago

it's the first time a read the second part of the maxim, thanks.

tandr• 10 months ago

Thank you, a very heartwarming story indeed.

I think you just have coined a new saying - "Always invite Anna" sounds intriguing, and yet at the same time very descriptive.

DrProtic• 10 months ago

Happy you shared this, such a heartwarming story.

robofanatic• 10 months ago

Great story. Alexei is definitely a lucky man to be surrounded by good friends otherwise it’s too easy to be teased by your friends like your acting like some sort of philosopher or something.

Ancapistani5• 10 months ago

I'll add to this: it's usually not only OK, but appreciated when you're explicit about this.

I'm not a very social person by nature, and it has taken years -- decades, actually -- for me to get to the point where I feel comfortable in professional situations. One of the strategies I've developed to cope with this is to just be completely honest and upfront about my intentions.

This has backfired a couple of times when I started doing it, so I've since modified it to "wait until you're confident they're not shady". With that addition it has served me well.

n4bz0r• 10 months ago

This has backfired a couple of times

Mind telling more about that?

Ancapistani5• 10 months ago

In short, there are some things that are risky to tell your boss. The biggest one is if you’re unhappy.

A good boss will try to work with you to resolve the issue, and help you transition to another role or company if that isn’t possible. A bad one will undermine you, violate your confidences by reporting the concern up the chain, or even outright fire you. I’ve had the all of the above happen, though it’s been a while. I think I’ve gotten better at judging people, but it’s also possible that I’ve just had a lucky streak.

thinkingtoilet• 10 months ago

This is a great thing to remember when you have friends with depression. I had serious medical issues for a year and a half of my life and experienced depression because of it. There were so many things I said no to that I otherwise wouldn't have. People stopped asking at times and it made me feel so much more isolated. It is very true that just asking someone can go a long way, even you you're 99.99% sure they'll say no.

Liwink• 10 months ago

I'm usually the Anna in the group, and always appreciate being remembered, even though it's not easy for me to say no.

BeetleB8• 10 months ago

By the time you get to my age, your list of potential Anna's will be in the high dozens. You simply cannot keep this up with all the Anna's.

A lot of people genuinely don't want to hang out with you. Likely that number exceeds the "real" Anna's by an order of magnitude.

If there's someone I particularly like, I'll keep inviting him. But if the person is otherwise normal (e.g. clearly has a social life), I invite 3-5 times, and then stop. If the guy wants to hang out with me, the ball's in his court.

You'll find no shortage of people who'll say "Hey man! What happened? I never hear from you any more!"

To which I'd love to respond with s/any more/ever/

If you're the guy who always invite people regardless of their response (or non-response), you'll find that people will have an expectation that you always invite them. I would recommend not getting to that point.

efsavage• 10 months ago

I overheard two very outgoing co-workers once, where one asked the other if he was having his holiday party.

"It was last weekend", he said.

"Oh, I didn't get an invite"

"That's because you never come"

She looked shocked, I think she genuinely didn't know what to say. After an awkward silence she said, "but I liked to be invited"

"I'll happily invite you next year if you promise to come"

She smiled politely and walked away.

It was memorable to me because it was such a foreign interaction on both sides from my perspective.

dexterdog• 10 months ago

It's probably just ego on the one side. That person likes to be invited to feel like they are the more valuable person in the relationship. If I were the other person I would make sure that invitation is never extended.

jacquesm• 10 months ago

You can't feel powerful by rejecting an invitation that you never receive in the first place.

type02• 10 months ago

By the time you get to my age, your list of potential Anna's will be in the high dozens. You simply cannot keep this up with all the Anna's.

By the time facebook has been used to plan events, your list of potential Anna's will be in the high dozens, because Anna doesn't use fb and it's too difficult to send sms's. You simply cannot keep this up with all the Anna's.

BeetleB8• 10 months ago

I have no idea what you're trying to say, but FWIW I never used social networks - at least not the ones you can use to plan events (LinkedIn doesn't count).

63stack3• 10 months ago

I had the same opinion and I am surprised by the amount of feelgood responses in this thread.

Anna needs to realize that the amount of people who have the time and willingness to invite someone out for _years_ while receicing no is very low. These friends need to be treasured and appreciated, and Anna needs to make an effort by saying yes sometimes, or at least expressing what she's going through. The friends are making an effort by keeping her in the group, she needs to do the same.

BeetleB8• 10 months ago

My comment was not meant as a judgment on Anna, and if she's depressed, I would not put this kind of onus on her.

I was merely pointing out that most people who don't respond or always say "no" are not like the Anna in this submission. If I know someone who is in similar shoes as Anna, then I have no problem continuing to invite.

dvsfish• 10 months ago

100% agree. You'd start to think "Anna doesn't like us" and just move on. Despite what they're going through, some level of responsibility falls on them to express a sense of "it's not you it's me", if they legitimately do want to remain part of the friend group. Not engaging with the friend group is effectively the same as not being a part of it. If the "pleasant feeling of being included in the group" is the entirety of your involvement, it's actually a somewhat selfish and shallow position after a while. That's not to say that the group has to ban her, but at a certain point there is no valid reason to engage with someone (in a group context) who doesn't engage back.

If you have friends you think are depressed or have something else going on, by all means reach out, but thats not the same thing.

ryandrake3• 10 months ago

I came here to make a feelgood response and I’m shocked by the highly upvoted grumpiness!

“It costs nothing to be kind.”

Whenever I go anywhere or make plans to do something social, I try to invite everyone I can. You’re sending the invite already, the marginal extra keystrokes it takes to add someone is trivial. And even if you know they’re not interested, the invitation might bring them some joy, so why not?

Life is not a game where people build up points with you and you start to be kind to them only if they maintain themselves above a threshold.

readthenotes1• 10 months ago

"invite someone out for _years_"

In the story,it was only first semester, so at most mid August to mid December.

NuclearPM• 10 months ago

To which I'd love to respond with s/any more/ever/

What does that mean?

GreenWatermelon• 10 months ago

`s` is a replace command, so parent is saying "substitute 'anymore' with 'ever' "

bigstrat2003• 10 months ago

It's a sed command, which (as the other poster said) replaces the first occurrence of the first string with the second in some document.

lynnharry• 10 months ago

First year in collage is probably a rare case. Everyone is in a new environment and everyone's social group is quite limited. They probably know that they're Anna's only social connnection at the campus so the effort can be worthwhile.

stevage• 10 months ago

I knew a guy who had a clear "three strikes rule". If you turned down invitations three times in a row, you were told clearly that you weren't getting any more invites until you had extended one yourself. It's pretty fair.

These days I know a lot of busy people, so my softer version is, if I invite you to a thing and three times in a row you don't even reply, I'll probably just quietly stop inviting you altogether. I'm ok to keep you on the list if you make the effort to reply and explain why you can't come.

jll292• 10 months ago

You bringing in the "three strikes rule", I'm reminded of game theory.

They have the famous (repeat) prisoner's game, where two parties decide to either collaborate or to screw the other party. People ran software simulations of various strategies, and the winner is: Tit for tat. In other words, you start positive (invite), and stay like that until the other person screws you. They you screw them once next time and turn collaborative again immediately after (no hard feelings).

I'm not advocating you play the prisoner's game on people, but it's interesting that people worked formally on something relating to this.

Vinnl• 10 months ago

I don't think you always have to invite every Anna to everything. Usually, there are somewhat natural groups that are relevant to invite, and you invite the Anna's that are part of that. So if I'm having drinks with colleagues, I'll also invite my colleague Anna, but not my former college classmate Anna.

Nowadays this happens even more naturally, as my different groups will also be organised in their own Signal groups. So I'll just send a group message to my colleagues group, and there will always be people in there that never go - but they're welcome to.

dmesg• 10 months ago

This, especially since I don't want to come off with tech bro vibes by asking "Would you like $thing?":

[YES!!!] / [Remind me later™]

slumberlust• 10 months ago

I'll initiate three or four times before I pull back and let them show some interest. Family friends are an exception.

egorfine• 10 months ago

your list of potential Anna's will be in the high dozens

Yes. The strategy outlined in the article works for college, but really afterwards. It's really creepy to constantly invite someone who has clearly stated intentions of never joining.

tantalor• 10 months ago

Sometimes they have some good reason (like a religious observance) and they don't want to spoil the mood with an awkward explanation.

throw849494836• 10 months ago

Maybe she was just being polite, after several years.

"Friends" always invite us to their house. They have two large poorly behaved dogs, with no boundaries, and terrible hygiene. There is no way to explain, they love their dogs! So we always politely decline.

influx• 10 months ago

Conversely, tend towards saying yes if someone you want to hang out with invites you out, as they usually ask once and never again.

globular-toast2• 10 months ago

This. You usually get one and only one chance with new people. People hate rejection and they're not going to keep asking.

So a pro tip: if you're starting a new job or something and want to integrate into the social circles, be prepared to drop everything for those first few invitations. The first one is basically mandatory.

tolerance• 10 months ago

Was hoping that this was going to be about encouraging the use of shadow libraries.

The author of this should extend his LibGen browser to consult Anna’s Archive and z-lib:

https://github.com/Samin100/Alexandria

CalChris• 10 months ago

Along a similar vein, I was working at a company. I was pretty much the gang leader for lunch.

One day a guy shows up at a desk. I dropped by and invited him to lunch, but thinking he’d say no. There was a considerable difference in our ages. But I thought I’d be polite and social.

He thought for a few seconds and said … sure.

He had the best stories. I have good stories. He had better. He’d been a dresser for Nureyev and traveled the world. He’d taught celestial navigation at RIT. He’d raced the Bermuda race and had a lifetime winning record against Buckley.

And he was dead three months later from the cancer he had that day. I can’t remember any of the lunch gang but I can remember him.

pjmlp• 10 months ago

Now that was an interesting read.

constantcrying• 10 months ago

Also consider that maybe people do not want to party and the kind thing is not persistently inviting them, but rather actually find something to spend time with that person.

Not wanting to go out "to party" is not a moral failing, a problem, a fault, something which someone needs to overcome. If you like that person you can find something to do on a Friday night you both enjoy, if you don't then I doubt that you really care for that person at all.

circadian• 10 months ago

I'm in my 40s now, but when I was very young I had quite a rough time living in shared accommodation. It was people reaching out and asking me if I wanted to go out, whether or not I could, that in the same way stuck with me as helping to deal with being lonely. I still have the memory of peoples kindness and this story reminded me of those kindnesses. It's kind of a beautiful memory to have, even when the times were dark.

My interpretation is that Alexei might well have understood that Anna felt lonely / homesick. The reaching out could well have been simply sympathetic and well thought through to help include someone. That's what people did for me when I was young and out of my depth. Those people probably helped steer me into a good place when it could've gone bad.

It's always nice to reflect on the kindness of others. :)

bigiain• 10 months ago

My interpretation is that Alexei might well have understood that Anna felt lonely / homesick.

Maybe? Perhaps Alexei was just one of those rare people who treated everybody with kindness?

Either way, respect to Alexei - and everybody like him.

anttiharju• 10 months ago

Love the writing style

Shock9889• 10 months ago

It's a beautiful story, but honestly If Alexei really wanted to help Anna, he could've tried to ease her in their group, for example, by inviting her to a less stressful setting: a library, a friendly coffee date, etc.

Anna's behaviour indicates social anxiety grown into general avoidance (speaking from my own experience), and what's described in this story is the worst possible way to help a person with this condition. Alexei felt good about himself though, I suppose.

habinero• 10 months ago

They're 18 year old college kids, cut them some slack.

huhkerrf• 10 months ago

This is such an uncharitable interpretation. They're college freshmen, not guidance counselors.

majkinetor5• 10 months ago

Everybody, who thinks this is OK, should think again - what if Anna genuinely didn't like parties, you at parties, music at parties or whatever else. Re-invating in that case is disrespectful, intrusive and even rude as all interactions need to be feedback controlled. Sure, any generalization will lack the subtle cues of context but its safe to say that this was an exceptional situation rather than representative.

People who seem to like this story for the feeling of warmth seem to me to be the similar ones as those who "save food" for the children of Africa - disconnection from the reality is huge.

kixiQu2• 10 months ago

Why is it safe to say that would be exceptional rather than representative? (Couldn't I just as easily claim it's safe to say it's representative rather than exceptional?)

majkinetor5• 10 months ago

Because it's much, much more probable that person does not act in a convoluted way.

leetcrew• 10 months ago

I'm inclined to agree, this was a weird read. after the first few no's, there was definitely an opportunity for alexei to make it clear to anna that she was always welcome, but he was going to stop inviting her every single time.

this kinda ties into a more general blind spot for nerds on the internet. there's no obligation for people to include you in their personal lives (or vice versa) just because you vaguely know them. if someone chooses to do so and you want it to continue, you gotta reciprocate somehow.

ysleepy• 10 months ago

You are summarily dismissing their social skills.

It is very odd to read a one dimensional take like this, but this is hn, so I am not surprised.

majkinetor5• 10 months ago

Sure, any generalization will lack the subtle cues of context

It appears its not my take that is one dimensional.

63stack3• 10 months ago

Everybody, who thinks this is OK, should think again - what if Anna genuinely didn't like parties, you at parties, music at parties or whatever else. Re-invating in that case is disrespectful, intrusive and even rude as all interactions need to be feedback controlled

Anna has a mouth she can use to speak up, instead of relying on others ability to read (possibly unexpressed) social cues.

Also what world do you live in where an invitation to somewhere from your friend group can be seen as disrespectful, intrusive, or rude? Talk about disconnect from reality.

majkinetor5• 10 months ago

Also what world do you live in where an invitation to somewhere from your friend group can be seen as disrespectful, intrusive, or rude? Talk about disconnect from reality.

You are funny and aggressive at the same time. Good job.

Don't twist my words. Its not invitation that is the problem, but spam of invitations from the group that doesn't take your opinion into account. Its harresement.

wewewedxfgdf• 10 months ago

I let go of relationships where I feel the other person does not respond to several invitations to relate to me.

cellu• 10 months ago

agreed, relationships are built when all parties put effort.

kazinator• 10 months ago

I know she’s always going to say no

No you don't, though. The conclusion is not logically justified, any more than the concept of a lucky streak at the casino.

dzungfz• 10 months ago

This is really heartwarming. To be honest, I’m the kind of person who always wants to include others—invite them, reach out, make sure they know they belong. But sometimes when people reject the invites, I feel like “maybe someone like Anna in the story doesn’t really want to be with me.” Today I learned something from Alexei: “I know she’s always going to say no, but that’s not the point. I invite her so she’ll always feel included in the group.”

gcanyon• 10 months ago

This reminds me of a friend of mine from my 20s. Every time I went by where he lived, which was the house we all hung out at, so this was 3-7 times a week, he'd say "Hi G, want a beer?" "No, I don't drink," I'd reply. "Really?" he'd ask. "No, Craig, not ever." And he'd hesitate a second and then say, "Whoa."

This went on for months.

Finally I asked him if he really didn't understand that I had never had, and never would have, any alcohol. My father was an alcoholic -- everyone in our crowd knew, and knew how I handled the situation. Craig replied, "Yeah, I just figure maybe someday you'll want to try it, so I ask to be nice."

emmelaich• 10 months ago

Some people really don't like the beery noisy occasions that outings can become. And they might not ever tell you.

Certainly in a company setting, for the teams cohesiveness, you should plan a variety of outings.

waysa• 10 months ago

This is especially valuable for friends who struggle with depression. They almost never feel like going out because depression sucks out all their energy. But they'll appreciate the invite and that they're not forgotten. It's harder this way for them to isolate and go deeper down the spiral.

One rule that helped me fight my depression was to accept invites no matter what. Go to the loud bar I don't like? I'm in. Cake decorating workshop with annoyingly cheerful Jennifer? Sign me up. Join Joel for his 5am workout? I'm not sleeping anyway.

You get the idea. But it can only work when others take the initiative.

yazaddaruvala2• 10 months ago

I think one of the most important lessons in life (even as a healthy person) is realizing “motivation and action are cyclically causal”

Of course “action follows motivation” but even when not motivated “motivation follows action”.

For example, even as a healthy person I am not always motivated to go to the gym after a busy day at work which I am “so tired from”. I go dispite the lack of motivation. Unsurprisingly, I walk out of the gym feeling re-motivated and “with more energy”.

andai• 10 months ago

I like how my friend phrased it:

You can create energy through effort.

BeetleB8• 10 months ago

There are different types of depression, and going to a party when you're depressed can definitely exacerbate the depression.

It sucks being alone at home. It sucks more to be alone in a party.

OkayPhysicist2• 10 months ago

You can take advantage of this phenomenon to snowball small actions into bigger ones, too. To get into the habit of working out, I started going to the gym everyday. I didn't work out everyday, but the act of going out of my way to be at the gym lent me the motivation to actually work out more often than not.

braebo• 10 months ago

Acting with neither intrinsic nor extrinsic motivation is technically impossible, no? Otherwise, i wonder how this mysterious third force compelling you into a gym absent motivation relates to your personal psychology / environment, and how executive dysfunction (both genetic, and technology-induced) fits into the picture.

wvh2• 10 months ago

Excellent point. As somebody with experience of major depression, even when you don't get taken up on your offer, always make sure people have an alternative to suicide. Put something in their calendar, even if you're sure they won't show up.

This is one main reason loneliness is a silent killer: nothing gets put into the calendar.

Aerbil3132• 10 months ago

I have a counter-anecdote.

In order to get over my social anxiety I did the same. First year of college, I'm in to every event, hangout and gathering. I made many close friends, connections, memories.

Yet after any significant social interaction I was somehow, inexplicably, almost mysteriously, extremely exhausted. A lunch with few close friends would have me resting on the couch for a few hours afterwards. A meetup with more people would incapacitate me for the weekend. There was no alcohol or anything, the exhaustion wasn't physical but mental.

I kept at it for a year but the anxiety never eased off like so many "Get out of your room, touch grass, socialize" people claim. By the second year I was literally dreading getting out of my dorm room to get groceries for the off chance I'd meet a friend in the building. Meanwhile everybody loved me and were very friendly to me, but for some reason I was feeling like secretly everybody doesn't like me. I had negative amounts of self confidence and had constant people-pleasing behavior.

My friends kept inviting me because I was showing up to every event.

It turns out I had undiagnosed autism and ADHD. I was masking all this time[1]. The reason I felt why everybody doesn't like me was because I didn't like my friends, but never deemed my emotions important enough to even realize that.

After I realized this I let go of %99 of my "friendship"s and I'm much, much happier, content and stress-free than ever before. The comfortable level of socialization for me is maybe an outdoor activity with a close friend once a month.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autistic_masking

embeng40962• 10 months ago

Wow, I really relate to this. It got to the point where I was reading self-help about social skills and such, and tried to follow the "always say yes" like you did and "never eat alone" type fluff advice. People had lots of good things to say about me, and I even tried doing things like writing those things down in a gratitude journal or taking screenshots of the texts, etc, to help shift my mindset (unsuccessfully). I still have the low self-confidence and people-pleasing you talk about to this day.

To your last point, I'm feeling much better when not pushing myself so hard to be social but the question I'm grappling with now is somewhat selfish but about how to make sure I have support? E.g. I had a friend who just went through a cancer diagnosis and a lot of us friends and his community rallied for him. It also made me wonder about what happens if I get very sick, or lose my job and don't have a professional network to reach out to or personal/friendship support, or just if my car breaks down at 1am or something, or just being very lonely without real close friends.

How are you reconciling this sort of thing in your own life?

jll292• 10 months ago

Nice to have a post on HN about the human element, not just about homelabs and kernel patches, thanks for submitting and accepting it.

I guess a generalized lesson can be derived from this story: Never give up on people.

nicbou3• 10 months ago

If people keep declining invitations, I take the hint. Otherwise I feel like I'm pestering them. From my perspective, Anna is indistinguishable from someone who doesn't like me/the group/our plans that much.

Organizers also put themselves out there when they suggest and idea and invite people. Being repeatedly shot down feels bad too.

The core of my friend circles is the people who keep showing up. They're receptive to each other's plans and proactive about making them happen. When they show up, they bring the homemade dips. You can't get anything off the ground with a group of Annas.

ttoinou• 10 months ago

Maybe the difference is at least Anna is taking time to answer politely ?

Nowadays, people just ignore / ghost you and don’t even take the time to answer

globular-toast2• 10 months ago

One of the most difficult things in relationships is when each person thinks they are "doing the right thing" for the other, but it comes across as completely the opposite.

It reminds me of a relationship I had once which didn't work out for many reasons, but one thing in particular stood out: how we each expected to ask and receive help.

She would expect me to see that she needed help and just jump in. When no help was forthcoming she would just get more and more frustrated and annoyed that I wasn't helping. She treated me how she wanted to be treated: if she thought I needed help she'd just jump in and try to help.

But I was also treating her how I wanted to be treated. I don't like it when people just jump in and help. I want to figure things out for myself and if I want help I'll ask for it. So by each treating each other how we wanted to be treated we just annoyed each other constantly. It turns out the "golden rule" doesn't actually work; you can't just assume people are the same as you.

The invitation thing is similar. Some people will take "no" as a rejection. They know that if they say no then it means no, so they assume the same for others. But sometimes no really means "not this time, but please ask again". I have heard some people being really explicit when saying "no", like "sorry, I can't make it this time but I really want to join you so please invite me next time".

nicbou3• 10 months ago

One thing I had to learn is that clear is kind and unclear is unkind. If your unstated expectations are unmet, it's on you. I used to be like the "she" in your story, and I realised this behaviour is manipulative and rarely gets me what I want.

Some people will take "no" as a rejection.

People say "no" because they mean "no", and people accept "no" as meaning "no". This is how adults communicate. I don't think you can both-sides this situation.

bonoboTP2• 10 months ago

It also depends on whether she does regularly say yes to some low-energy things (chill coffee afternoon) and only no to high-energy things (loud parties with many strangers). And the ratio between those. If we go to some events together every week or more often, but she doesn't like going to the club, which we typically do monthly, it can make sense to still ask her if she wants to come to the club even if I know she will likely decline, because who knows.

If it's constantly "no", to anything, including a chill tea evening with 3 people or movie theater or walk in the park or museum etc., then I'd conclude she doesn't like the group/me and the invites are probably annoying.

nicbou3• 10 months ago

Totally. It's fair to keep people's preferences in mind. I have friends to party and friends to do sports. Someone who never makes time is not really a friend, or at least not someone I'd keep inviting.

walterbell6• 10 months ago

If people keep declining invitations.. indistinguishable from someone who doesn't like me/the group/our plans that much

Per the second sentence of the article, declines were limited in scope to party invites, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45348495#45355972

  We ended up hanging out quite a bit during those early months.

the_snooze5• 10 months ago

I think the fact that so many people (myself included) interpreted it as Anna declining everything demonstrates that the article is poorly written. Even a quick signpost mid-piece like "parties obviously weren't Anna's scene, but she was a regular at our dinner table" would have made things much clearer.

There's a big difference between inviting a regular to something they may or may not like, and inviting someone who's absent for everything.

PeterStuer• 10 months ago

Most people do not understand passive socialization. They think 'social' always involves acting, that it means doing things or talking. For many, just 'being' is covering a social need. This can be just sitting together or like in the story just being made to feel included without the need to go beyond that.

wvh2• 10 months ago

Never underestimate people's capacity for feeling left out, especially those that don't know how to show it. Loneliness and emotional disconnect are main drivers of depression and suicide. I agree with Alexei: always make an effort to invite everyone.

rmason• 10 months ago

Lot of wisdom in that article. You never know what people are going through. If she ever did share her problems with anyone it would be the guy who kept inviting her to party with the group.

nenenejej3• 10 months ago

Even better, ask Anna what she wants to do. Maybe bowling on Sunday afternoon is more her thing.

bonoboTP2• 10 months ago

Yep, if the group is constantly doing stuff she doesn't like, maybe she needs a better fitting group. I mean it may feel nice to be "included" in the invites to all the loud parties that the group is doing all the time, but if you hate loud parties, it is even better to be included in invites by a group that does stuff you like better.

These invites that are always declined only provide an illusion of inclusion.

walterbell6• 10 months ago

needs a better fitting group

From the article:

  After that first semester, the friend group disbanded and we all went our separate ways.

nenenejej3• 10 months ago

Sort of. Usually people are into more than one thing. It is rare for partying to be the only thing a group is into.

blablablerg• 10 months ago

I'll go against the grain here. If I invite someone a couple of times, and constantly get declined no way I'll invite that person anymore, because I make an effort to invite you. Declining (repeatedly) makes me feel like an ass for inviting you. And I want friends that respond, not friends that reject me. Wanting to be invited just to decline sounds.. egotistical to me. A relationship is a two way street, and being that shy is a you problem.

To even be more cynical, maybe Alexei wanted something more from Anna? Because I certainly haven't seen people invite someone to repeatedly get declined.

walterbell6• 10 months ago

Per the second sentence of the article, declines were limited to party invites, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45348495#45355972

  We ended up hanging out quite a bit during those early months.

alberth• 10 months ago

It's a touching story that gave me pause in thinking about my own life.

The difficulty is, in many cultures - if you repeatedly invite someone and they don't attend - people view it as disrespectful to them.

So knowing the difference between a friend who needs inclusion, and something else might be hard to discern.

But agree, it's a story that should cause a moment of reflection on your own friends & interactions.

yapyap• 10 months ago

Very cute story, of course I expect(ed) a HN participant to rationalize the good vibes off this article — and I wasn’t wrong — but there’s also others sharing in that positivity, keep it up. :)

MollyRealized• 10 months ago

Person A declines Group B's invite.

Group B thinks that it's a desire-based decision: that Person A does not want to participate.

They don't always realize - because for many, this simply doesn't "track" - that Person A may simply consider themselves unworthy.

This is something I think I am learning now, painfully late. I'm 51. I think I'm beginning to realize that I was a feral kitten for much of my life, claw-swiping at the milk syringe out of fear when people were trying to be nice to me.

sn9• 10 months ago

I've definitely done a version of this.

Sometimes when my friends wanted to do something, I'd suggest asking someone who frequently declined and they'd ask what the point was.

Well either our friend joins us for once or she declines, but if you at least ask she knows she was wanted and thought of. Pure upside.

Always Invite Anna

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