Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/WebWise/entry/is-india-a-police-state

by kshatrea • 14 years ago

93 93 14 years ago

blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com

sudmah5• 14 years ago

IF I WANT TO GO US, I HAVE TO GIVE MY BLOOD, MY DNA. THIS IS DUE TO RISK FROM TERROIST. HAS THIS SYSTEM EVER STOPPED A TERROIST ATTACK.

AMERICA IS A POLICE STATE WHERE IF YOU DOWNLOAD AND SHARE A FEW SONGS, YOU WILL HAVE TO SELL YOUR HOUSE TO PAY THE OUTRAGEOUS FINES. ALL IN THE NAME IF THE RIAA.

nrbafna• 14 years ago

This is a wrong way to reason about it.

The article appears in an Indian paper, why single out U.S. as the country to compare to?

Also, just because other countries have other restrictions (wrong or otherwise), that doesn't justify such restrictions in India.

P.S. Avoid typing in all caps. It comes off as rude.

sudmah5• 14 years ago

I'm actually quite fed up with people portraying India negatively. Oprah Winfrey has done this and I am surprised at how this seems to be the consensus with the media.

Yes India has some issues with policy and infrastructure, however they are trying to sort this problem out. Have you heard of the 4g network that's a work in progress?

If you actually read the article you would know that non Indian wrote it.

"It’s a police state here in Delhi. Just finding a place with public Wi-Fi is a serious effort, and then they copy my passport."

Now hold on since when was India, Delhi. Do you even know what a police state is?

"Some want only a government-issued ID. Some insist upon an ID with a photograph. And there are some who have a fascination for your passport or driving licence – nothing else will do. I mean, just to check a mail, which will take 5 minutes, you have to fill in a form (particulars in a register) and submit a copy of a “proper” ID"

I live in the UK. I'm 27 years old and when I go to the buy cigarettes. I am asked for Id, only photo id will do. I have no driving licence so am forced to use my passport. Same thing happens when I buy alcohol and at bars clubs. Having to give my id to an arrogant bouncer who can blatantly tell I'm over 18 is greatly annoying.

Every internet café I have ever been to in the U.K has CCTV. the owners of the internet café also has to keep a record of all sites visited. Maybe India should take this big brother approach.

sifar3• 14 years ago

First of all this was not about the US but India.

  1) courier companies opening your packages - check
  2) problem furnishing address proof if 
     working in a different city             - check

 Having experienced most of these things, I totally agree with the article.

The whole premise of stricter laws equals better security is false. These just enable the police to harass the people more. Yes US has its share of idiotic/draconian(or whatever) laws in the name of security. It doesn't mean India should have the same moronic laws. The difference is that privacy is taken pretty seriously in the US while in India people by and large have no sense of respect towards an individual's privacy. BTW, no need to shout (if your caps lock was not enabled by mistake).

sigkill• 14 years ago

RE: Cybercafe - To be fair, they do this because they don't have the infrastructure or the technology to track you and all your data.

RE: Bank accounts - Yeah, I've heard this happen from my friends. But they say that it's quite much easier to open accounts in private banks as compared to the "State Banks". But even they require some sort of person to vouch for you.

sifar3• 14 years ago

They should not track my data. Period. Yes, so one has to use other means to remain anonymous.

huntesh2• 14 years ago

we are turning into communist nut-jobs. Thanks to the gandhi family and congress. gandhi family were lead in forming the congress party which was formed under british rule to support british indra gandhi declared an emergency and edited the constituent of india(made us socialist) *gandhi brought u features like no more than 20 SMS per mobile no more cars below 16 liter/KM average 10^32 scams a shitty budget that gives average family 1000Rs off on income tax while increasing taxes on corporations by a factor of 2 free mobile phones for poor(lol) the biggest mid day meal till date(billions Rs spend) ....I can go on all day

It was awesome during Atal Bihari Vajpayee time.

Wishing BJP(ie Modi) to take over...

sdqali• 14 years ago

"It was awesome during Atal Bihari Vajpayee time."

Citation, please!

intended11• 14 years ago

Wow, several new profiles of 3 hours or less on HN, and ALL have terrible posts.

I think HN got linked somewhere.

For people unaware -

Bashing the Gandhi family and Congress is a common past time, but beyond that it gets split across people 2 factions which are rife with, if not build directly out of, hate/venom/ideologies.

Its sort of the Republicans vs Democrats, with less long term ideals and more unalloyed hate.

Ask either side for data or logic and they usually can't get too far. If they do, they have their own skewed interpretations of what happened.

Both sides are bad, one is more vocal.

kamaal12• 14 years ago

Don't know what you wish to say here.

I am a native Bangalorean. And from what I know of history our state. Close 99.99% of IT growth work you see today was the work of Deve Gowda(JD-S) and SM Krishna(Congress). On top of that biggest projects were conceived under Congress- IT Park constructions, Bangalore Metro etc.

Not a single thing has happened under BJP. The biggest scam in Karnataka's history mining scam happened and was done by BJP MLAs.

Avoid venting your political opinions here. like 'intended' user mentioned rationally there is hardly a party in India which isn't corrupt.

huntesh2• 14 years ago

not venting.

rationally trying to describe the shit ideas of the congress(gandhi family) while the stupid UI at ycombinator does not add \n after I press enter.

the ideology that thinks the nation is before the single individual, will not think twice adding stupid restriction like those mentioned by "Christopher Soghoian".

the ideology is like this: since they care(as shown by providing free mobiles to poor etc..) they have a right to act like parents and impose such violation of personal rights.

the thinking foundation itself is wrong.

The same thought that imposes ban of cars above 16 km/liter average (ie Ferrari will never show its face in India)is responsible such stupid laws.

The same thought that created ibfindia which is now censoring simple words "menstrual" on TV because they think its their job to care what enters my ear is responsible for such stupid laws.

congress is like a physco slut girl friend of every Indian

zakshay• 14 years ago

My experiences are unlike the blog says. You've got to know your city and where the services, things are not that organized ofcourse. Also, India is big on Human powered telephony search query based services(see 1). It really really works here. For example, you could ask who runs the nearest color copier via phone, and the answer would be SMSed to you.

Also another thing which is unique in India, is the home delivery & pickup culture. You can get virtually anything home delivered like fresh meat, booze, and ofcourse snacks(see 2) etc. Also pickup services like laundry (one of many), are really popular.

Need a new credit card, or a phone connection ? You can have a representative visit you. These kinda of services are primarily possible to India's abundance human resource (and various other factors of course).

In my opinion, these are more accessible that internet based services are they rely on a phone.

Its a pity that blog posts these get a lot of attention because of their extreme nature. Most of the local media tends to be sensationalistic, for grabbing eye balls I guess

My daily reads of good quality Indian news are

* http://www.thehindu.com/

* http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/

References:

1 Eg. http://justdial.com

2 Eg. http://www.delyver.com/

sifar3• 14 years ago

The article is not so much about unavailability of services as it is about lack of privacy.

sudmah5• 14 years ago

I agree

quadhome• 14 years ago

Are you in Bangalore?

intended11• 14 years ago

And my experiences include both:

It IS absurd:

That in a country which is implementing a Universal Identity system for all its citizens, It wants to track:

1) Where and when you use public wifi

2) Where and when you stay at a hotel

3) Where when and what you send in parcels (all countries prevent sending illegal goods)

4) when you apply for gas

5) apply for a mobile phone

and on.

Words cannot express my bewilderment when otherwise intelligent people argue that this is for the benefit for our country.

India's solution to solving problems is to assume that its citizens are criminals, and that more monitoring will help. And the citizens response is to accuse the government of being criminals.

At the same time it doesn't detract from:

1) Great strides and innovation in mobile value added services. Forget SMSes, or calling up toll free numbers for information. You can give a missed call to some numbers and companies will call you back. That blew my mind when you consider the cost is 0.

2) Lots of human advantages as mentioned, delivery systems to your doorstep.

Both co-exist. Yet explaining one doesn't detract from the other.

And of the examples mentioned, the constant growth of India as a police state IS far more important than highlighting the positives of the country.

kamaal12• 14 years ago

Agreed,

But given the population its unlikely these changes can happen in a flash.

There is a lot of resistance to automation, computers and technology in general. Because people think(especially policemen) that it will make their jobs difficult, and make a lot of them redundant. Add to this bureaucracy and corruption makes these sort of changes slow and drags them over years.

quanticle2• 14 years ago

>Need a new credit card, or a phone connection ? You can have a representative visit you. These kinda of services are primarily possible to India's abundance human resource (and various other factors of course).

Of course, you have to ask why it's often necessary for someone to provide those services. The answer is that oftentimes India's infrastructure is so rickety, it's easier for the corporation to maintain a private courier pool than it is for them to trust the postal service or a private delivery service.

Sambdala• 14 years ago

This doesn't sound like a good thing.

This sounds like something one would expect when you combine ridiculous bureaucracy with lots of poverty.

When you can't remove friction from getting things done, you just outsource anything frustrating to someone poorer.

kamaal12• 14 years ago

This is nothing new.

For a while talking in English in India was considered a sign of being forward and modern. Parents used to take pride that their folks talk in English, even if all they do is swear. It used to look odd, strange and hilarious at times.

And you see this India bashing not just in blog posts and news. But also in Novels and books, giving a bad perspective of India to a already troubled-by-outsourcing west sells well- Because it gives them 'See, we told you...' moments.

Are there problems in India, sure there are! Like every other country in the world. But NRI's talk about India like its the biggest hell in the world. And how they are totally justified in immigrating to a different country. A friend of mine went to do his MS in the US, when he came back for an yearly vacation all he had to say was was how awesome America is and how horrible India is. He seemed to find every reason under the sun why its worth settling down in India.

Well if you want to go out and settle in the west or where ever. Sure you are in full rights and please do it.

But justifying your personal ambitions by talking low of your country and country men to make your ambitions not look greedy is really a cheap way of doing it.

baltcode• 14 years ago

But these things are problems and need to be fixed. If you are the right kind of Indian, NRI, or foreigner you'd be fleeced of money, time, and happiness, and you'd get the hell out of the situation as soon as you can. If you are, say Muslim or some "wrong" caste/community in the wrong place, say good bye to any sense of dignity or sense of justice/faith in the system as random bureaucrats/cops or even powerful individuals harass you. These are real, important problems that need to be fixed. They won't be fixed by ignoring them.

Yesterday or so, a passenger was actually beheaded in a crowded train in W Bengal. Nobody was apprehended. In every town/village/city you will find people being harassed by babus, and victims of extortion or violence by police and/or criminals.

intended11• 14 years ago

These responses are yet worse because they just continue a cycle of non information and angst forever.

For those NRIs who complain I can present to you the NRIs who try and recreate India abroad and think everything was better in the motherland.

They force their children to learn to be "Indian" act Indian, and then get married to an Indian.

It's called the perfect minority syndrome if I am not mistaken.

Some moan, others wax eloquent. Neither should get to you. Only valid criticism matter, and lessons we can apply here.

ashayh• 14 years ago

"But justifying your personal ambitions by talking low of your country and country men to make your ambitions not look greedy is really a cheap way of doing it."

Pretty sure the reason why anyone "talks low", is because they are stating facts.

irahul8• 14 years ago

> Its a pity that blog posts these get a lot of attention because of their extreme nature.

Pointing out that you need to show your id to use a cyber cafe or other things in the article are neither false nor extreme.

phaedrus81• 14 years ago

I am not sure if India is a police state yet or not. I think tourists don't have it easy as they don't understand the country as well as the natives. If you are a native you do know how to get things done. However, it is true that India is on the slippery slope where its most important democratic institutions are slowly breaking down. The first to go was the media, an example of which was the media now running paid columns as well as the attacks on journalists who threaten the status quo. The next in line is the judiciary. While the top levels of the judiciary seem to be still untainted, the lower levels seem to have been corrupted. The Election Commision was tainted a long time back as well. All this is happening and most of the middle class is unconcerned at this stage.

intended11• 14 years ago

True.

The recent media coverage of the recent riots and migration was distressing, marking yet another nadir in their slide downwards.

I got better reports from following leads on reddit and forums than I did from looking at the media.

At first I didn't give credence to what people said about the media being mouth pieces for various parties. Now I wouldn't trust them if they told me the earth was round.

The judiciary is doing a better job, but are constantly having to encroach on duties supposed to be carried out by the government.

Take the idea of Public Interest Litigations which were propounded by a Chief Justice. They in turn became a corner stone of the fight against corruption. Allowing people to take up injustices so that the common good can be defended.

Fortunately the election commission found its teeth a while back and fought hard against to bring us fair elections. Unfortunately there were some signs of push back against the EC recently, so the next wave is underway by the looks of things.

Similarly the government is headed by what should be the most progressive of leaders, the man who helped create the 1991 liberalization reforms.

Yet it is constantly hamstrung by its own politics to increase its power, and at the mercy of pro communist, anti market, and anti progress swing parties.

The middle class WAS concerned recently with the Anna Hazare campaigns to push for an anti corruption ombudsman.

That was frightening to an extent for the government because they had a vote bank which was apathetic suddenly show signs of life.

The subsequent destruction and implosion of the organizers of the anti corruption drive, have now left the middle class in a stage between waking and sleeping.

ramkalari2• 14 years ago

I think Manmohan Singh gets far too much credit for the reforms. Those who have studied Indian Economics will know that liberalization was forced on us. We were close to bankruptcy in 1991 and the IMF forced the reforms on us in exchange for a bailout. Unfortunately, having branded him as an architect of our reforms, we have also set our expectations very high.

manojlds2• 14 years ago

A free press is something that India can still be proud of. While the media might be silly at times, they are free ( to be silly as well ).

intended11• 14 years ago

I used to think so, but the more I've seen of the reporting, especially with the recent riots and Assam migrations, the less I trust them.

I used to never give credence to the insinuations that Indian Media was bought.

After the recent events, I've just stopped trusting them at all.

I got better reports from trawling through the dregs of r/India and then linking to other forums and checking out comments there.

Aside from that firstpost/tehelka come to mind for decent reporting.

What use is a free press, if they spend their freedom on just making up soundbites to garner eyeballs?

dharmach• 14 years ago

The Worst Argument In The World (lesswrong.com) http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world/

ck22• 14 years ago

Your police aren't given $100 Million from taxpayers to buy toys like this, including land and air drones.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/hardcore-sec...

I think US has India and virtually all other countries beat.

I expect they are going to start to do random stops for IRIS scans like they do in the middle-east over here soon - you know, for all the terrorists roaming our streets and airports and buses and trains.

tptacek• 14 years ago

Huh? This article says that in India, the police have required store owners to collect ID before allowing people to use the Internet, have required hotel owners to deny rooms to people from Delhi, require police verification before you can rent an apartment, and require witness statements to open a bank account.

And so you have one article suggesting that the police somewhere wasted money on an APC, and now "we have them beat"?

What kind of argument is that?

ck22• 14 years ago

You are talking about policy which can be undone with laws.

Try DE-militarizing our police which respond with massive weapon-grade force to unarmed, legal, protests (or shoot a dozen innocent bystanders to get to one crazy person).

quanticle2• 14 years ago

I would disagree. India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state. These regulations are not meant to frighten or intimidate people. As the article points out, they're so ineffectual as to be laughable. Police states tend to be quite a bit more brutal than that.

No, all of these regulations, permits and rules are classic hallmark of bureaucratic empire building. All those Internet cafés now need to be inspected to ensure that they're keeping track of their customers. The department that manages to grab that privilege has access to more lobbying power, more bribes, and more influence. Any politician would lust after side-benefits like that. So, after any catastrophe, the answer is always more regulations and more inspections, regardless of whether those regulations and inspections would do anything to actually solve the problem.

cdi• 14 years ago

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/jan/08/kishwar-desai-he...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irom_Sharmila

kamaal12• 14 years ago

For those who don't know the back ground context behind these links.

The reason she is protesting is a law called Army Special Powers Act: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_%28Special_Powers%...

Why the law was enforced in her region etc is a huge history and is well beyond the scope of a HN comment.

CWuestefeld• 14 years ago

India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state.

Even that is interesting. It shows us that bureaucracy (and, I'd say, failure to respect one's property rights) can become indistinguishable from a police state.

smutticus2• 14 years ago

I'll just leave this here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial

chimeracoder2• 14 years ago

> India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state.

Agreed - I nearly laughed when I read this title. One could construct a more convincing argument that India is an anarchic state (at least, anarchic in the Snow Crash sense - the government 'exists', but it's not central, and its authority is all but nonexistent. A 'police state' with effectively no authority or power is hardly a police state, at least the way we usually use the term). Obviously India is neither of the above, but you get my point.

Just a few months ago, there was an electrical fire in our garage (in India). Thankfully the private security guard for the house next door was able to convince the private construction workers down the street to put it out, because the fire department took almost an hour to get there. Why? They couldn't figure out where we were, even when given our address, and even after contacting the local police. (The police are a completely separate department, and there is no real equivalent of 911).

Police states may be bad, but how much do you really fear a so-called 'police state' that isn't even capable of locating its citizens when they comply, let alone identifying the ones who don't? India is a very large country, and it's very easy to slip through the cracks if you need to... and sometimes even when you try your best not to[2]!

And this experience will be very different depending on which city/state you're in, which if anything underlines how India is not a police state - it's not centralized or organized enough to be one.

But the second part of your point is nothing new - in fact, this is a dramatic step forwards from the early License Raj[1] days, IMHO.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licence_Raj

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh_Association_of_De...

dr_2• 14 years ago

A few years ago I had traveled to India, and had plans to leave the country for a week then return. Big mistake. I was advised to go to the Indian embassy in the destination country to get permission to come back. I did so, they took my passport and told me to come back the following day, hence delaying my travels within that country by a day. I returned to India ok. When i was leaving India I was asked why I had not checked in with the local police after returning. This was confusing to me but this said its a requirement for any foreigner leaving and returning within a 2 month period. As such, they wouldn't let me board the plane. I stayed in a hotel near the airport thru the weekend. On a Monday I went to the appropriate station, where there was a long line of foreigners in a similar predicament. When it was my turn, I was told i would need to show proof of a relative or someone I was staying with, so my uncle came and brought his passport and electric bill. Then I was told it would take some time, but he went in the back, met the director of that station and talked him up by mentioning people they knew in common and I got approved. Then there were no seats on my plane available for the rest of the week, but I had to get back to work, so I bought a new ticket and went home. I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again.

ta121212• 14 years ago

Perhaps they were trying to motivate you into bribing them.

kamaal12• 14 years ago

>>I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again.

Sad, I am Indian too. Born, raised in India, Bangalore.

The process you describe is something that every 'Indian' here goes through. I was a little taken aback when you said 'I am Indian mind you'. I think you refer to the legal status. Because although I agree that its painful- Being an Indian you experienced what each of your country men experiences everyday. I don't see why anybody would give you preferential treatment- merely because you returned from the US.

Besides this reminds of an incident about Gandhi, when he was asked why he wears and lives like a peasant after living in South Africa as a barrister wearing a suit, necktie, pant and shoes all the time. He replied that only way he can be one among the Indian and convince Indians that he can fight for them is to live like they live, wear what they wear and eat what they eat. To rub shoulders with ordinary Indian in their day to day lives.

Every time a NRI complains about stuff like this I always wonder- legally sure you might be an Indian.

But are you actually an 'Indian'?

eshvk• 14 years ago

I am confused: Are you actually saying that asserting one's Indian heritage means that one has to accept all the shit that happens due to an incompetent completely broken system?

ta121212• 14 years ago

Grandparent was pointing out that the extra procedures were not due to his being an immigrant or tourist. Most countries have somewhat fewer hoops for their own citizens than foreigners. He wasn't asking for preferential treatment, he was surprised how bad the default treatment was.

And saying he's not really an Indian because he lives in the US is kind of petty.

irahul8• 14 years ago

> But are you actually an 'Indian'?

I used to work for Infosys, Bangalore. This is what it looks like http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Bangalore... (just one of about 50 buildings)

I couldn't find the image but the area immediately behind Infosys(For those who know, the pathway you take to get to the bus stop on Hosur Road) is in complete contrast - dirty, impoverished.

While passing through that area, it often happened that one of my friends would remark "this is the real India". And I always had the same question - What makes it any more real than the Infosys you are coming from, and what makes them any more Indian than I am(not by choice; I was born one)? Even if some category is in minority(an example; working, middle class people aren't minority in India), it's not any less real than the majority.

I am pretty sure whatever categorization you have for actually being an Indian, most of it won't be applicable to me. But the good thing is, the only thing required for actually being an India is to satisfy the constitutional requirements(born in India in my case). The opinion of what anyone else thinks about being an Indian doesn't matter much(well, so called guards of being Indian do cause trouble, but that's not legal).

dr_2• 14 years ago

Actually, kamaal, you are mistaken. This 2 month travel rule, in 2009-2010 when I went, applied only to non-Indian passport holders, it did not apply if you were an Indian citizen. I think the only other exemption was for OCI card holders.

FraaJad• 14 years ago

> "Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US".

You are not an Indian, you are a "Person of Indian Origin". Big difference.

chimeracoder2• 14 years ago

This reference will be lost on most HN readers, so I'll explain for everyone else.

In many situations, you are better off being white and American than a PIO (this is a very commonly used term). You will get better treatment and are less likely to be cheated by a price-gouging merchant or bureaucrat.

Mendicants are much more aggressive with PIOs. Merchants are similarly more aggressive. I've had one tell me that it would cost $20 to tell me how to get to the security line[1]. When I shook my head and walked away, he yelled at me, 'That's nothing to you - you're rich!'. (He was basing that statement entirely on the fact that I was a PIO, nothing else).

On the other hand, Indians pride themselves on being hospitable as a culture, so they would never treat a white person (a clear foreigner) this way.

When I go to India, I'm very careful to adjust my clothing, hairstyle, etc. so that it's less obvious that I'm a foreigner (trust me, they know). It's better to travel with a local (you probably have relatives there) and not to speak at all - even if your accent is flawless, your vernacular and fluidity is probably subtly off just enough to tip them off. Or, speak in a language that is native to another region within India (so that people think you're traveling from another region, and it will be harder for them to notice your accent).

[1] It's not unusual to have private citizens step in and fill the gaps where there aren't enough public employees to do the job at hand, so yes, this was more or less this guy's entire job. Other people charge to 'watch over' your car in public street parking, etc.

rheide• 14 years ago

Great website.. As soon as I open it a javascript popup shows saying "ReferenceError: FB not defined".

eru• 14 years ago

I get: "TypeError: Object #<Object> has no method 'api'"

fakeer3• 14 years ago

It's probably the most famous Indian newspaper. Specializes in bringing page 3 to page 1. Suppose one of our sports star (read cricket star) does good and there's some serious political or militnacy related event, it knows how to skip the other news. But you know what the shameful part is? People still prefer it over other newspapers.

PS. Not commenting on article but the quality of newspaper :-)

manojlds2• 14 years ago

> Just finding a place with public Wi-Fi is a serious effort

That boils down, mostly, to poor infrastructure. It's getting better at airports.

> This is a police requirement that is supposed to track terrorists. Unfortunately, we are yet to see a case where this requirement has managed to stop a terror attack in India.

It is known with proofs that many threats emails were sent from internet cafes. That was the real motive.

> Photocopy issues

I carry color photocopied ids everywhere in India. This is about not knowing where to get what.

> But no nation does it at the cost of its own citizens. No free country harasses, and humiliates, its own citizens.

TSA of the US comes to my mind, and that too, is just a security theatre as has been pointed out so many times here on HN!

leeoniya• 14 years ago

"But no nation does it at the cost of its own citizens."

don't be so certain.

smutticus2• 14 years ago

India is not a police state. India is a dysfunctional state only made functional through continuous petty bribery.

Historically police states like Nazi Germany or Mao's China operated by being well organized at all levels of society. India is absolutely not well organized at all levels of society. Instead India seems optimized for the petty bribe seeking bureaucrat. It's not the all knowing police state. It's the disorganized mafia state.

I had an easier time getting a work permit in Russia last year than India. The sheer amount of paperwork and rubber stamps required for my Indian work permit was the worst I have ever had to deal with and I've worked all over the world. All of this paperwork and stamping allows perfect opportunities for small time bureaucrats to extract bribes and favors from people who just need to get something done. So when I look at something like requiring ID to use wifi I don't see Total Information Awareness. I see Tammany Hall and a genius system that's operating exactly as it was designed, to extract graft from normal people at every possible opportunity.

Disclaimer: I lived in India for 0.5 years in '99 and recently worked there again in 2011 for a month. My answers are based on these experiences and of knowing lots of Indians frustrated with their government.

vishaldpatel2• 14 years ago

Why didn't your employer get it done for you? If it was a big firm then they'd have someone who knows their way around the system to get things like this done efficiently.

jonathanyc• 14 years ago

First, he never said it was a big firm, second, I don't see how your comment is at all relevant (aside from being tremendous fodder for cynics).

statictype• 14 years ago

I've been working in India for over 7 years. Getting an employment visa issued (and subsequently renewed) is a kafka-eque nightmare. However, it wasn't because of having to pay bribes to every officer up the chain.

Immigration is just a genuinely dysfunctional entity.

(Believe me, if I thought I could at any point have paid petty bribes to get the damn thing over with instead of wasting weeks of my time, I think I may have actually done so out of frustration).

suprgeek• 14 years ago

The problem with the Indian govt is that it is known to take the most sweeping knee-jerk but completely ineffective measures in tackling security: some examples-

- SMS used to spread inflammatory stuff? BAN SMS

- Bicycles used as bomb placement locations? - ID needed to buy bicycles

- E-mail used to claim credit for incidents? - Strong ID proof for surfing the net

- Many terrorists that the incompetent intelligence agencies cannot track? every tenant in any rental place needs to submit to "Police Verification"

- etc, etc etc

Incompetence and Dysfunction combined with corruption & fear - Result > current state of India

anuraj• 14 years ago

India is not a functional state. It is not a state even. It is a collection diverse states that are held together through British Era bureaucracy. The states that indian union is composed of has very different outlooks and cultures. Blame it on British for the invention of India!

ashray• 14 years ago

In all of this the funniest part is that the government/bureaucracy is so uselessly inefficient and corrupt that the very IDs they ask for are meaningless.

Case in point, my driving license has my name and address incorrectly written on it. I didn't make any effort to do this, it was just carelessness by the person filling in the details. I can now continuously use this as an ID everywhere and they believe they are 'tracking' me. Extend this to the other millions of folks out there who have similar documents.

The main issue here is that they are trying to track people with a broken system. Their efforts at security are laughable at best and redundant at worst.

Meanwhile the average Indian citizen suffers from documentation hell. (unless they're friends with someone important ;)

Obviously there's also the question: Should they try to track you ? Unfortunately respect for the average individual in India is so low that this discussion does not make sense there. Privacy has absolutely no meaning in India. It's almost like asking "Should dogs wear collars ?". There are no philosophical discussions involved. Just practical ones.

areddy• 14 years ago

We been called many names but never a police state.His cry is all about providing id. One 9/11 and the government started stripping people and entering your bed rooms.In India, the average ratio of a police to citizens is around 1:200. This is from major cities. When you go rural, the ratio will shrink further. Considering the number of terrorist attacks we have and population density, ids are the bare minimum preventive measure we have.For Indians, the accepted id can be any one of voter id, driving license, atm card with photo, ration card, passport and college id. Even my son's play school id was accepted in air port. We usually keep photo copies of one of the above.

I am surprised to see crap like this got many points. What's next? something related to Jersey shore?

phusuke• 14 years ago

I have a problem with people who like to call India simply a dysfunctional state. What does that even mean? The author here is hypothesizing a reason for the dysfunction. Its just a hypothesis but its still well ahead of calling it simply broken. Also I believe 'police state' doesnt imply big-brother-esque behavior on the part of the govt. Even unending policing and related rules can be called that. Far too many people especially Indians take comfort in calling it 'simply dysfunctional' thereby oversimplifying the situation and hence not bothering to find out what can be done to improve.

Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

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